How the stupid 5-day rule (and other stupid business policies) spread COVID

[Ms. Toad]

I was sick the week leading up to Christmas: Sore throat, runny nose, immediate bronchial cough, fever for two days. I had 3 negative antigen tests, and my PCR test, swabbed at the peak of my symptoms, was negative. Aside from a lingering cough, I was asymptomatic in 4 days.

Six days after my symptoms started, my daughter developed a sore throat, runny nose, and an immediate bronchial cough. she had no fever, but had a head and muscle aches. 10 days later, she still (in her words) feels like crap.

She applied for COVID leave from Amazon (paid leave to encourage employees to stay home when they have COVID). So far, so good.

After she was out for a couple of days and completed the paperwork she was told:
1. Her "free" leave (they woud not dock any of her leave banks) was limited to 5 days unless she tested positive
2. If she didn't test positive, her time off would be unpaid
3. Unless she had Unpaid Time banked which she could use to cover days 6 on, she would be fired.

(Amazon doesn't have sick leave - they have unpaid time off which you can draw on when you are sick, when you want to avoid mandatory overtime, etc. If you need leave beyond your accumulated Unpaid Time, aside from limited circumstances, you are terminated.)

She made an appointment for a PCR test immediately when she started having symptoms. That test was done 5 days after her symptoms started (the soonest test she could get) and took 4 days for results.

So she hit 5 days off last night (she works the overnight shift). She would have had to use 36 hours of Unpaid Leave to make it to Thursday, the official end of her COVID leave. She knew I had tested negative - and because of the similarity of symptoms assumed whatever she had she got from me. She took an antigen test before going to work which was negative. If she didn't return to work last night (with the PCR results unknown), based on her antigen test the remaining 3 days of her leave would be converted to unpaid since she did not have a positive test . . . YET)

You know where this is going, right?

Halfway through her shift last night she received her PCR results - she has COVID.

Due to the unavailability of tests (so she couldn't get a test, let alone a reliable one, earlier) - coupled with the assinine policy of forcing people to choose to between (at worst) being fired for being off work without any unbanked unpaid time and (at best) using unpaid time to continue to stay home and keep COVID to herself - she was at work with COVID last night.


She was wearing a KN94 mask. Her viral load should be low because she is vaccinated and boosted. On the other hand, she still has a wicked sore throat (apparently one indication of a long positive). Probably 50-50 that she was still contagious. But she probably didn't infect anyone, because she is responsible about masking.

But - especially workers in places like Amazon, when forced to choose between using unpaid or being fired because they have to make a choice about returning to work before getting the results of a PCR test, are going to choose to return to work and infect others. (A mandatory mask policy is apparently not being enforced - and most people are not wearing masks.)


On a completely different note - since her symptoms were so similar to mine - I'm suspecting I actually had COVID, just with a viral load too low to detect - even with a PCR test. It was either that, or she was infected by her COVIDiot boyfriend. His family had COVID in the same time frame as I was sick. He didn't get tested, since he thinks COVID is a myth and that they have put swabs in a sterile room then run the PCR analysis and they have been positive so the tests don't mean anything. She says she's going to have to break up with him if she can't convince him to get vaccinated . . . and, as a breakthrough case this will now make it harder since he also thinks vaccinations don't work. Crossing my fingers that this is the straw that breaks the camel's back and she dumps him.

But if she got from him, I've now been exposed at home (where I've always said I had the greatest risk) and I may have it soon. I've got a test scheduled for Thursday.

[AllyCat]

1. Im sorry. What a mess letting business run this, eh?

I work in a HOSPITAL and they do the same damn thing. My kid was symptomatic and I got him tested. Negative. Now I have it. Waiting on PCR results.

I hope you and your daughter are doing well under the circumstances, feeling better soon, and the boyfriend has an epiphany.

[Ms. Toad]

4. I'm fine.

My symptoms (whether flu or COVID) only lasted from Sunday through Thursday. They kept me from spending Christmas with my 90, and almost 90, parents. Even with 3 negative tests (and with all of us vaccinated and boosted), we didn't trust the antigen tests enough to risk their lives.

My daughter feels crappy. She's got an overactive immune system (and usually fights things off in record time) - but she's on a biologic which suppresses the immune response in her colon - AND - she had to cancel the infusion because of her symptoms. She often feels really dragged out close to the time of her next infusion (and she's now a week overdue).

AND - my daughter just walked out and told me she broke up with her boyfriend. (Am I allowed to say, Yay!!!)

Very glad we are all vaccinated and boosted.

Now to convince my spouse that she needs to keep her mask on consistently for the next couple of days. (When I told her that she even needed to keep it on around her sister, her response was "I haven't seen my sister recently." When I said she needed to wear her mask at work, she said, "I told everyone my daughter was positive so they need to wear their masks around me." Loss of executive functioning is so much fun . . . )

[leftstreet]

2. This is just a disaster

Take good care of yourself

[Ms. Toad]

6. It absolutely is -

Coupled with the fact that I just welcomed 34 new students. Welcome involves 24 hours of contact - in a county where the positivity rate of the pop-up clinics last week was above 50%.

We've had 12 hours of contact over 3 days. Two have returned after symptoms - but with negative COVID test (including one with a new loss of smell on Sunday but a negative antigen test today). Unfortunately, once they test negative I can't keep them out.

The school just announced that they are prioritizing learning to live with COVID (and increasing enrollment) over minimizing the spread of COVID - so we start regular classes (with 400+ people in the building) on Monday. I can't believe they were so blatant about the commercial motivation for opening in person, but there it is.

I'm retiring in April, and it's probably not soon enough. I'm not compatible with a place which prioritizes money over people.

In the mean time - I'm wearing KF94 masks (always). I can still count on both hands the number of times I've eaten indoors with people other than my family present. My biggest risk is at home (from a spouse who is incapable of consistent mask wearing, and a daughter who just (finally) dumped her COVIDiot boyfriend.

[Meowmee]

3. It seems like you had it also

Either you were exposed elsewhere and gave it to her or she was exposed by bf later since your symptoms were first. Yep it’s a mess, another of more major blunders in all of this. Which show that biz could give a crap about people dying etc. from covid or creating more variants.


I don’t understand the job firing you part- if you take time off without having extra unused time off you are automatically fired? What if covid or something else renders you too ill to work. So all you can ever take off is 5 days?

It sounds like it is time to dump the bf for sure. I hope you both recover well with no longterm ill effects.

[Ms. Toad]

5. Good news - BF is dumped. Yay!!

Amazon doesn't have sick leave. They have a few different categories of unpaid time off. If you are absent when you don't have unpaid time off you are fired.

The 5 days for COVID leave are excused (without docking your banked leave) whether you test positive or not. If you test positive, you get paid for whatever portion of 10 calendar days you were scheduled to work.

Starting on day 6, ifyou do not have a positive test you must "buy" the additional days in your 10 calendar leave using your unpaid time off. So if you don't have time banked to purchase the days, you are fired.

The amount of unpaid time off is relatively generous (if you aren't concerned that you just have no paid time off). My daughter hasn't had any trouble managing it, but until she has worked here long enough to qualify for FMLA she has to be careful about using her banked leave because she has an illness that could require a transplant (or lesser hospitalization) - which would quickly wipe out her leave. Early on, she used unpaid leave to shorten her shift. She'd work 8 hours and then use unpaid leave for the last 2 hours. When she needs time off for doctor's visits she can't schedule the appointments on her off days, she uses unpaid leave to cover it. It builds up pretty quickly. There are two kinds - one you can take as soon as you earn it hour by hour (which saves her when she is occasionally late, or early on until she got used to 10-hour overnight shifts), and another kind which can only be taken in larger chunks.

So she had (more than) 36 hours banked - and could have just "bought" the extra 3 days if her test had been negative. She went back assuming (based on my negative tests, and her own negative antigen test) that she had the flu and was no longer contagions - and she didn't want to use her banked time. Some of her peers use their time up as soon as they earn it - and would have had to choose between being fired and coming in sick (but with a false negative test).

Looking back from her positive test, it really does seem like I had it and gave it to her. Until I was in my late 30s, my colds always turned into bronchitis - so I know that feeling. Before I discovered zinc, it took 4-5 days to get there (now it just takes 4-5 days to vanish). This cough/congestion in my bronchial area was there the morning I woke up with symptoms. A little scratchy throat - then bam, that bronchial cough/congestion. And that is exactly where omicron likes to live. My daughter woke up Christmas evening with symptoms, coughed - and I could hear it was coming from the same place, even before she jerked her hand to where it hurt.

So I was pretty sure we had the same thing.

I just assumed that since I had a negative PCR test (swabbed on the day of the worst symptoms), it was the flu (even though it would have been the first time I had the flu since 2009-ish, it didn't feel like the flu, and COVID is a whole lot easier to catch). Now that she has had a positive PCR test I'm thinking I just had a low viral load case that the PCR test didn't pick up - OR - the test used was one that detects a gene portion that is absent in omicron. I'm in the process of finding out which test was used so I can check it against the FDA cautionary list.

But did I say that the good news is that the boyfriend is history

[Meowmee]

7. Ok, think I get it now

At least that is good she had that time if needed and for her illness. I hope she qualifies soon for the fmla. And will not need the transplant. I think it is wisest to go by symptoms rather than testing in many cases. I was diagnosed with covid pneumonia with chest xray and symptoms in the very beginning and the tests were much worse then I think. Plus the sampling depends on where it is and viral load etc.

I have only had flu once that I know of, also diagnosed by a rapid swab. The symptoms were obvious- high fever, weakness and terrible coughing for 2 days. It also came on very rapidly while I was gardening, I felt terribly achy then feverish, came inside and it was 103! Went to bed and the cough came on rapidly. I threw everything at it, the fever stayed, but controlled, for 3 days or so, btt I got to the doc they said it was too late for anti virals but I read later they will still help in any phase.

I also had the same reaction to colds, as a child though, bronchitis every time. A pediatrician said I was allergic to my own bacteria and gave me shots for several weeks. After that it has never been chronic again, but I still have a propensity for lung involvement at times due to asthma, reflux and hereditary traits.


I am glad you both made it through ok 😀 Great news about the bf!

[Ms. Toad]

10. You're lucky -

I had bronchitis until I was in my late 30s. Zinc has been a miracle drug for me.

I did a little research last night - there are some PCR tests which test for a gene portion which omicron deletes. Those were, understandably, anticipated to give a higher false negative response. Since my daughter and I were tested at different pharmacies, it may be that the pharmacy I was using used one of the tests looking for a gene portion that wasn't there.

That instant bronchial cough (which we both had) makes me highly suspicious.

I am so glad about the boyfriend. She hasn't had a boyfriend I wanted her to dump before - it's been so hard to nudge her to question the relationship without wandering into territory where she might just keep him around to prove me wrong.

[Meowmee]

22. Interesting about the O difference

I ordered some at home tests on amazon and will see how they are prolly. I have had a weird swollen gland sort of sore throat, but going on too long to be O I think. And had a test where I had to drink iodine which may have caused it.

I also have continual bronchial congestion in that area near your throat with my coughing asthma/ reflux and still breathing worse problems after the C pneumonia. tg it rarely goes to full bronchitis, fingers crossed. And covid was my first pneumonia ever. With everything going on I have not gotten to a specialist yet and my cardio doc said go to a lung doc. I have trouble with zinc due to stomach issues, but take some in vit C gummies with zinc also lately with real sugar mainly because they raise my bg well.

I can’t imagine how hard it would be to hold back on banishing a bf like that, I would prolly not be able to.

[Ms. Toad]

23. Since last night -

I found out one more puzzle piece.

My negative test was swabbed on 12/21.
On 12/27 the FDA identified 3 PCR tests which were likely to have high false negative rates because they look for a gene component which omicron mutated out.
My daughter's positive test was swabbed on 12/30 (after those tests were taken out of circulation).

So I'm thinking the place I tested might have been using one of the tests no one yet knew might have a high false negative rate.

It would explain a lot.

[Meowmee]

24. Yes that sounds accurate.

I am going to try to get tested next week they open a new testing center where I got my first two shots. Because tonight I was having pain in my back again I started to get scared I’m getting pneumonia, my pulse ox is good 98% though. I can’t take much more of this 😳

[YP_Yooper]

8. So dumb...

So the antigen test basically sees if you're contagious. Sounds like she wasn't (maybe because her immune system started kicking in by the time she took it). The PCR should never be used to determine if you go back to work. It is sooo sensitive that it can detect even the broken up proteins from the dead virus for up to 12 weeks later.

What happens if you work for Amazon and you continue to test positive for a few weeks (or months) later using PCR, but are actually recovered?

Good news for you. With having such high antibodies from a booster so recently, you were probably exposed, but it never took hold.

[Ms. Toad]

9. You've got the problem flipped.

When she reported symptoms, they granted her paid leave for all of her work days within a 10-day period. (Amazon does not have paid leave at all, except for COVID.)

BUT - unless she tested positive (any test)

- her leave was converted to unpaid
- her "free" leave was limited to 5 days
- the remaining 3 days within the 10 days that were supposed to be paid had to be "purchased" from her bank of unpaid time off (and if she had none in her bank and didn't return to work before finding out whether she actually had COVID she would have been terminated.)

Because tests were unavailable, she could't get any test results (antigen or PCR) before what would have been her 6th day off. She went to work (rather than forfeit her banked unpaid time) assuming she just had the flu (since her symptoms were similar to mine and I never tested positive).

Her positive PCR test came in halfway through her work shift. Given her ongoing symptoms, she may well still have been contagious - and she would not have gone back to work had she been allowed to stay out, without penalty, until her test results came back.

Amazon doesn't use a negative test (of any sort) as a prerequisite to returning. They use the absence of a positive it to force you back to work at 5 days, even if you have COVID but have just not been able to confirm it.

As for me - after doing a little research last night, I had it but just had a false negative PCR test. Some of the PCR tests are based on replicating a gene portion which Omicron mutated out. My daughter's test and mine were run at two different pharmacies - so my test may have been one of the ones that produced false negatives.

And the antigen tests aren't a good tool for omicron (even for determining whether you are contagious), because omicron lives mostly in the bronchial passages - not the nose, where the swab is taken - a lot of the nasal swabs, even at the peak of symptoms, aren't gathering enough virus to be detected. The more sensitive PCR test (assuming it isn't one which identifies a mutated out gene portion) is better at confirming infection - and most people stop testing positive on the PCR test around day 7-9.

[YP_Yooper]

12. lol, so now Amazon sounds even worse :/

appreciate the clarity!

I heard about how you really need to swab both your nose AND throat because of the prevalence of Omicron in the throat.

Though, I wouldn't know how to get both samples on the same swab that doesn't sound gross

[Ms. Toad]

15. Their system is extremely odd.

I keep pestering her about sick leave - since I can't believe they don't have any. But apparently it is just one of the two kinds of unpaid time off she can bank so she doesn't get fired if she has to take time off because she is sick. (One she can take down to the minute - she uses that if she is late or needs to leave early because her fatigue makes it a bad idea to finish off the shift; the other she can only use in larger chunks - she uses that if she needs to get out of mandatory overtime, or is sick.)

The positive side - she gets overtime nearly every week, and pretty frequently gets double-time. When she gets double-time, her little high-school only self gets paid the same as her college + two-post college degrees mom. (Assuming you only count the hours I am paid to work, not the ones I actually work. If I count the ones I actually work, she earns more than I do, per hour, all the time.) She also gets a bonus for working the night shift (which suits her body clock better anyway).

As for the swab - the process I've seen described is to swab the throat first, then use the same swab on the nostrils.

It's not really any more gross than sticking the swab in one nostril and then the other . . .

As soon as I get more at-home tests, I'll start testing that way. I doubt I can convince the testing center to do that tomorrow.

[YP_Yooper]

18. It's not really any more gross than sticking the swab in one nostril and then the other

except it's still all the nose.

It's said the "dirtiest" part of the body is the mouth, so maybe nose first, then mouth? I mentioned this to my 9 yr old, and she's worried about eating boogers

As the other posts mention, this move to "general time off or PTO" concept is BS.

[Ms. Toad]

20. There have been a bunch of similar comments on DU -

it wouldn't bother me.

BUT the nasal hairs in your nose are there to filter crap out, and the passages are connected. So I'm not sure it is strictly true - and since it's all your germs in passages where the germs can wander back and forth, I doubt it makes much difference.

The instructions I've seen say to do the back of the throat first.

[bullwinkle428]

11. So many businesses have shifted from "sick days" to "PTO" in recent years. IOW,

days where you choose to stay home because of illness are now taken away from your earned vacation days.

AFAIC, this essentially incentivizes workers to come in when they're feeling ill, and has created an especially disastrous side effect when the pandemic is factored into this.

[leftstreet]

13. +1

[Ms. Toad]

17. Absolutely.

Although I used to work in a system where my fellow-workers were always sick 1.25 days a month (the accumulated sick leave each month).

Then when they were really sick - they had no time banked. (After this happened a few times, and people were forced to use unpaid time off, the union asked employees to contribute their own excess sick leave to a bank that could be drawn on by any employee. I refused, since I didn't want to encourage people to abuse sick leave in reliance on the banked hours of those of us who weren't abusing it. After spending a month in the hospital during my 11-year tenure there, I still resigned with between 300 and 400 hours of banked sick leave. I would have been happy to contribute so the bank could be used by individuals with catastrophic or chronic illnesses, but we weren't allowed to pick and chose the situations under which our hours could be used.)

Amazon has no paid leave - so their unpaid time off banks work the same way. You have to decide whether to save those hours for vacation or to use when you're sick.

That's essentially what this policy did - my daughter didn't want to lose her banked time by staying out longer counting in a positive result (when I had similar symptoms and never tested positive). And some would have no choice - since they were like my fellow workers and used every hour as it was awarded. Those individuals had to choose between risking employment (since they would have been fired if they didn't test positive and hadn't returned at 5 days).

[YP_Yooper]

19. This reminds me of FMLA

At least back in the day, I'd have to give up first all my sick leave, then my vacation when I took FMLA for the kid's birth.

Basically, I had to burn through all my salaried benefits before they wouldn't pay me, and in exchange, they wouldn't fire me. Wonderful.

As you said, makes me keep those sick days no matter what.

[iemanja]

14. That's a dangerous policy that Amazon is playing with

I hope both you and your daughter continue to recover and that she dumps the loser!

[Ms. Toad]

16. She told me last night (after my 1st post) that she dumped the loser!!!!

[iemanja]

21. Well, good news!