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captain queeg

(10,198 posts)
Sat Jan 8, 2022, 10:04 PM Jan 2022

Hitler never issued the orders for the Holocaust

It is unthinkable that he wasn't directly responsible for it, but no one has been able to discover any orders from Hitler for it. You could blame it on Himmler, but he couldn't have done it without Hiler's support. I imagine TFG might have followed his example for the 1/6 insurrection. They might have a hard time proving he ordered it. He's certainly had a lot of experience covering his own ass.

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Hitler never issued the orders for the Holocaust (Original Post) captain queeg Jan 2022 OP
drumpf is more like the mob Takket Jan 2022 #1
That is because he is the biggest coward on earth. Eliot Rosewater Jan 2022 #4
Only thing Dump personally does is hurt people and pleasure himself. Nt Baked Potato Jan 2022 #2
Also... Mike Nelson Jan 2022 #3
Sociaopathic narcissistic cult leaders Budi Jan 2022 #5
You should always add "malignant" narcissistic to sociopathic. lol BSdetect Jan 2022 #18
Yes. Definately Malignant. Budi Jan 2022 #23
We Will Never Speak of It: Evidence of Hitler's Direct Responsibility for the Premeditation and Celerity Jan 2022 #6
👍 Joinfortmill Jan 2022 #12
He had the power to stop it. moondust Jan 2022 #7
+2 Even Albert Speer, 'the Good Nazi' knew of the Holocaust appalachiablue Jan 2022 #20
From studying the topic extensively... WarGamer Jan 2022 #8
You are missing something... Lithos Jan 2022 #9
Exactly. The final solution, the Jewish question, and in most all of his his speeches and actions JohnSJ Jan 2022 #10
Right. Resources needed for the war, eventually desperately, Hortensis Jan 2022 #17
+2 appalachiablue Jan 2022 #21
Early on, when the upper echelons of the Nazi party ordered the extermination of Greybnk48 Jan 2022 #22
Maybe he'll take the same exit ramp. Joinfortmill Jan 2022 #11
The game is to be top dog. cachukis Jan 2022 #13
People can chalk it up to a concerted effort for deniability. Aristus Jan 2022 #14
"all right squeaky rampartc Jan 2022 #15
Plus, TDFP has a long history of studying the works of Hitler Maru Kitteh Jan 2022 #16
republicons are envious of Hitler RandiFan1290 Jan 2022 #19
They knew what he wanted done, do not be mistaken about it. BeckyDem Jan 2022 #24

Takket

(21,568 posts)
1. drumpf is more like the mob
Sat Jan 8, 2022, 10:07 PM
Jan 2022

Al Capone never kills anyone. he doesn't want to go to jail for murder.

he just passes the dirty work down through so many layers there is no tracing the order back up to him.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,112 posts)
4. That is because he is the biggest coward on earth.
Sat Jan 8, 2022, 10:26 PM
Jan 2022

He cant personally harm most people , for instance, he is afraid of anyone his own size.

Celerity

(43,383 posts)
6. We Will Never Speak of It: Evidence of Hitler's Direct Responsibility for the Premeditation and
Sat Jan 8, 2022, 10:30 PM
Jan 2022
Implementation of the Nazi Final Solution

https://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1170&context=constructing



The “Intentionalist vs. Functionalist” debate has raged amongst academic historians for decades,
centered on the question of whether Adolf Hitler personally premeditated and instigated the Final
Solution, or whether the idea and its implementation developed out of a collaborative effort within the
ranks of the Nazi bureaucracy. This debate has largely been fueled by the fact that no written decree
from Hitler directly ordering the Final Solution has ever been found. However, evidence in the form of
personal statements made by Hitler as well as verbal recollections, diary entries, and wartime
documents made by his Nazi colleagues, point to the idea that he did indeed personally order the Final
Solution. Overall, through careful examination of Nazi primary source materials, Hitler's direct
responsibility for the premeditation and implementation of the systematic annihilation of European
Jewry can be firmly established.

Critics of the idea that Hitler personally developed and instigated the Final Solution generally
point to the absence of a Führer-signed decree ordering this genocidal campaign as evidence for their
position. However, there is good reason why, in spite of Hitler's being directly responsible for
implementing the Final Solution, a written order has never been found: his desire to avoid public
association with it for fear of outrage and reprisal, both domestic and international, over his brutal
policies of mass murder. An example of the public outrage Hitler feared is seen in the negative reaction
of the German populace to his official authorization of the T4 euthanasia program. In general Hitler had
a fixed policy of not issuing written instructions for policies relating to what would later be classified
as crimes against humanity. However, he made an exception in the case of the T4 euthanasia program,
in order to overcome opposition to it within the German state bureaucracy.

In a 1939 written decree, Hitler charged program head Reichsleiter Philip Bouhler, and lead
program physician Dr. Karl Brandt, with “the responsibility for expanding the authority of
physicians...to the end that patients considered incurable...can be granted mercy death.”
However, Hitler quickly came to regret authorizing the program in writing, as throughout
1940 the general population became increasingly aware that thousands of mentally and
physically disabled Germans were being 'mercy-killed' by the Nazis in a Hitler-sanctioned state
program. Between 1940 and 1941 the German people's negative reaction became increasingly
vocal and vehement, culminating in Hitler being openly jeered by a crowd watching mentally
challenged patients being loaded onto a train at a rail station in Hof, Bavaria in 1941.

Ultimately, this negative public reaction to the T4 program and Hitler's sanctioning of it,
bolstered by denunciations from Catholic and Protestant church leaders, forced Hitler to publicly
cancel the program in August of 1941, though it continued in secret until 1945. Overall, no direct
Hitler order for the Final Solution has ever been found due to the public relations debacle that
erupted over his sanctioning of the T4 program, as well as its successful continuation
in secret following its public 'cancellation'. These events reinforced for Hitler the value of carrying
out his programs of systematic murder covertly without written orders, and subsequently informed
his methodology for implementing the Final Solution.


snip

moondust

(19,981 posts)
7. He had the power to stop it.
Sat Jan 8, 2022, 10:42 PM
Jan 2022

Even if it wasn't him specifically who started it. Undoubtedly he knew about the Wannsee Conference where his senior Nazi officials planned the "Final Solution to the Jewish question" on January 20, 1942.

I wonder if Hitler sat in his dining room gleefully listening to radio reports of his troops loading Jews onto trains and heading for the camps.

appalachiablue

(41,132 posts)
20. +2 Even Albert Speer, 'the Good Nazi' knew of the Holocaust
Sun Jan 9, 2022, 11:59 AM
Jan 2022

Plan to exterminate Jews although he claimed otherwise. A letter of his was found as evidence.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/mar/13/secondworldwar.kateconnolly

WarGamer

(12,444 posts)
8. From studying the topic extensively...
Sat Jan 8, 2022, 10:43 PM
Jan 2022

Last edited Sat Jan 8, 2022, 11:21 PM - Edit history (1)

There was never a formal order from Hitler...

But I'd bet that he spoke of it in private but wanted to be disconnected from it historically.

Hitler envisioned himself as a grand leader for the next half century in a Germanic Empire and wanted to be "clean" in the eyes of history...

This is actually why Hitler never ordered the use of chemical weapons even though the Germans had Sarin and derivatives first.

He certainly expressed his desires to Himmler... possibly directly to Reinhard Heydrich as they met several times... probably to Bormann... Burgdorf...


Without a doubt... Trump hand picked people to do his will... on or off the record.


Lithos

(26,403 posts)
9. You are missing something...
Sat Jan 8, 2022, 10:56 PM
Jan 2022

Orders come in various types. He didn't need a written order. What was needed was an understanding.

In July 1941, Hermann Goering, writing under instructions from Hitler, had ordered Reinhard Heydrich, SS general and Heinrich Himmler’s number-two man, to submit “as soon as possible a general plan of the administrative, material, and financial measures necessary for carrying out the desired final solution of the Jewish question.”


https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/the-wannsee-conference

This resulted in the (in)famous Wannsee conference which was essentially the start of the fully organized part of the Final Solution.

Trump was noted for operating in a similar "understanding". I would not look to find anything written by Trump, but the notes and actions of his subordinates. Their remarks and notes will fill in this gap.

L-

JohnSJ

(92,190 posts)
10. Exactly. The final solution, the Jewish question, and in most all of his his speeches and actions
Sat Jan 8, 2022, 11:20 PM
Jan 2022

There was no ambiguity


Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
17. Right. Resources needed for the war, eventually desperately,
Sun Jan 9, 2022, 03:19 AM
Jan 2022

were diverted to the holocaust, something the military strongly and repeatedly objected to. It could not have been accomplished without a long series of orders and authorizations by Der Fuhrer.

And definitely for that last. Remembering all those private, undocumented meetings with Putin and other leaders, unheard of. Long before he became president, tRump destroyed business records even or especially when ordered by law to produce them. In office, he personally tore up up documents and ordered them destroyed rather than kept as required by law. though he may have finally been persuaded not to do it with others watching. For sure he would have considered a system that stored records beyond his reach a serious problem.

Greybnk48

(10,168 posts)
22. Early on, when the upper echelons of the Nazi party ordered the extermination of
Sun Jan 9, 2022, 12:16 PM
Jan 2022

all developmentally disabled people (at that time, retarded people), German citizens rebelled strongly. What the Nazi hierarchy came up with was to change the word "exterminate" to "relocate," and the people were ok with this.

They were not ok with agreeing to killing these people, but were ok with getting them out of Germany. Few asked where they were going (to a gas chamber it turned out).

I believe this info is in Daniel Goldhagen's book "Hitler's Willing Executioners."

cachukis

(2,239 posts)
13. The game is to be top dog.
Sat Jan 8, 2022, 11:34 PM
Jan 2022

He wants to out Putin, Putin. And, he knows his audience and the purveyors to that audience. And he has a flow of money and all that.

Aristus

(66,377 posts)
14. People can chalk it up to a concerted effort for deniability.
Sun Jan 9, 2022, 01:27 AM
Jan 2022

But the truth is, Hitler was a lazy administrator. Historians relate that he rarely spent any time at his massive desk at the Reich Chancellery. He was bored by the day-to-day paperwork drudgery of running a nation. He would delegate paperwork to underlings, and talk big ideas to senior Nazi officials at dinner.

When he wanted to put those big ideas into action, he rarely had documents drafted for his signature; he would simply dictate an order to whomever happened to be standing nearby, and expect it to be carried out.

If there were any incriminating documents bearing his signature, it's not hard to imagine that those were the first papers selected for burning in the massive destruction of records that went on as the Russians closed in.

Hundreds of thousands of photographs and millions of feet of film footage of the death camps, and the lack of a signed paper proves to the Holocaust-deniers that it didn't happen.

rampartc

(5,407 posts)
15. "all right squeaky
Sun Jan 9, 2022, 01:28 AM
Jan 2022

stab her 28 times and write helter skeiter on the wall with her blood" manson never said it

it is well known that henry ii did not order the murder of the archbishop as well.

"who will rid me of this meddlesome priest?" shakespeare

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