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People who are not big Bernie fans - where does he lose you? (Original Post) Patterson Jan 2022 OP
I agree with his ideas Mr.Bill Jan 2022 #1
He is full of ideas snowybirdie Jan 2022 #4
When he left college he didn't go back to NY. LiberalFighter Jan 2022 #20
The money for community healthcare clinics is a Bernie amendment questionseverything Jan 2022 #21
Quite a record for 30 years in congress. Hortensis Jan 2022 #31
I think Bernie's lack of success in spite of his good ideas is akin to what Biden is experiencing. panader0 Jan 2022 #39
+1 redqueen Jan 2022 #84
This message was self-deleted by its author Mr.Bill Jan 2022 #2
I support almost all of his policies... brooklynite Jan 2022 #3
The way he ran and extended his losing campaign against Hillary Clinton. LuvLoogie Jan 2022 #5
He's not a member of our Party FakeNoose Jan 2022 #6
Bernie's greatest contribution to the nation is that he says what needs saying. Chainfire Jan 2022 #7
Much of what he says is good, but constantly blaming Dems for "failing" is WRONG and DUMB! LENNY0229 Jan 2022 #76
It may be wrong and dumb, however, he is right. We have been losing ground since Reagan. Chainfire Jan 2022 #82
"We"? Everything would pass but for TWO people in the Senate. It is NOT "We" or "The Dems". LENNY0229 Jan 2022 #88
He's not a Democrat. LakeArenal Jan 2022 #8
Joe Minchin and Kirsten Sinema multigraincracker Jan 2022 #11
Hard to forget he almost primaried Obama, then went after Clinton in 2016. Hoyt Jan 2022 #9
Hoyt, you said exactly what I think...most of his ideas are Democratic Party ideas championed by Demsrule86 Jan 2022 #34
"most of his ideas are Democratic Party ideas championed by generations of Democrats." betsuni Jan 2022 #35
I agree...I don't understand why they don't see it either. Demsrule86 Jan 2022 #51
Because good ideas continually need strong champions Tom Rinaldo Jan 2022 #57
I'm not sure I understand TheFarseer Jan 2022 #55
Really gotta love the cognative dissonance in regards to supporting Heath Mello. Lancero Jan 2022 #90
Hillary Clinton was NOT an incumbent President! TheFarseer Jan 2022 #54
I think the issue a lot of people have with the 2016 primary is this: Jedi Guy Jan 2022 #59
Thank you for the reasonable discussion TheFarseer Jan 2022 #61
Temptation is not a sin Polybius Jan 2022 #71
Except that just threatening in that situation is a "bad thing." Hoyt Jan 2022 #72
Well... Mike Nelson Jan 2022 #10
I haven't really heard him offer up any solutions to the problems we are having now Walleye Jan 2022 #12
While I agree with many of his positions in a general way, he doesn't seem to have Ocelot II Jan 2022 #13
Yup! Also being a "socialist" is a national loser, and he only talks about government programs and LENNY0229 Jan 2022 #78
The fact he is a one-trick pony whose economic philosophy has not matured past 1965*, and... Hekate Jan 2022 #14
Even his keystone policy, "Medicare for All", isn't his, and he's done little to advance it.... George II Jan 2022 #40
Democratic Socialist Raven123 Jan 2022 #15
I came here to post that Poiuyt Jan 2022 #25
He thinks the Democratic Party ignores the working class betsuni Jan 2022 #16
In 2011 I had dinner with Bernie and Jane.... brooklynite Jan 2022 #56
Guess back then donors were still human, later they became the donor class, billionaires, oligarchs betsuni Jan 2022 #62
Or. Not every wealthy person fits into a simplistic stereotype. brooklynite Jan 2022 #65
Using cartoonish stereotypes are one of the reasons populists are so annoying. betsuni Jan 2022 #66
Oh, he is very good at saying things agreeable to many of us, but... TreasonousBastard Jan 2022 #17
I'd tell you, but we aren't allowed to talk about it here. MrsCoffee Jan 2022 #18
Quite Some While Ago, Sir The Magistrate Jan 2022 #19
I was a Clinton delegate to the 2016 convention and saw this first hand LetMyPeopleVote Jan 2022 #24
Horrible! betsuni Jan 2022 #33
I remember that attempt to stop the booing LetMyPeopleVote Jan 2022 #68
And the Stein voter who organized a fart-in because of conspiracy theories about rigging betsuni Jan 2022 #77
So unfortunate that your daughter's first experience included Hortensis Jan 2022 #36
My kids are active in politics LetMyPeopleVote Jan 2022 #69
Been without power and Internet. Hortensis Jan 2022 #85
That's the sort of thing that did it for me, too. GoCubsGo Jan 2022 #37
The cost of so much disunity has become enormous. nt oasis Jan 2022 #42
That fact that people who were part of his campaign refused to vote for Hillary in the general JohnSJ Jan 2022 #58
Putin support YorkRd Jan 2022 #22
Vermont, of all places, elected in 2020 republicon P. Scott, with 69.49% of the vote. empedocles Jan 2022 #23
I never considered Sanders to be a serious candidate LetMyPeopleVote Jan 2022 #26
Have you found the answers to your question yet? We try to be helpful. Hekate Jan 2022 #27
Seriously, the answers to the question are right there. Not a mystery. betsuni Jan 2022 #29
No kidding Hekate Jan 2022 #30
I am still very happy about the results of the 2020 primaries LetMyPeopleVote Jan 2022 #70
After his 2016 run, He campaigned claiming he would remain a DEMOCRAT krawhitham Jan 2022 #28
LOL at "I consider myself closer to a Centrist." Too much, tone it down. betsuni Jan 2022 #32
His saying the 2016 primaries were rigged against him by democrats boston bean Jan 2022 #38
+1 LizBeth Jan 2022 #47
+1 iemanja Jan 2022 #64
I used to be a huge Bernie fan, but he lost me along the way because he would never concede Vinca Jan 2022 #41
The Independent Senator from Vermont 48656c6c6f20 Jan 2022 #43
He says a lot of the right things, but he's divisive as hell. ecstatic Jan 2022 #44
Terrible salesman...inconsistent two-edged sword gulliver Jan 2022 #45
He promises the world knowing he cannot deliver points fingers at Dems and blames, LizBeth Jan 2022 #46
I agree with most of his positions kcr Jan 2022 #48
His lack of understanding of other oppressions beyond economic. WhiskeyGrinder Jan 2022 #49
+1 iemanja Jan 2022 #67
It's that not winning elections thing alphafemale Jan 2022 #50
It's not Bernie, who I'm in agreement with for the most part. It's the Bros. librechik Jan 2022 #52
"where does he lose you?" is an incorrect assumption. L. Coyote Jan 2022 #53
Downplaying racism in inequalities ismnotwasm Jan 2022 #60
His attacks on the Democratic party iemanja Jan 2022 #63
I just find him irritating Skittles Jan 2022 #73
He never had me mcar Jan 2022 #74
Constantly attacking Dems for "Failing" Trump Voters. It is NOT TRUE, TOTALLY NAIVE, AND JUST DUMB! LENNY0229 Jan 2022 #75
he's the band member that can never sublimate into the group cadoman Jan 2022 #79
Not being a Democrat. BlueIdaho Jan 2022 #80
The only thing ForgedCrank Jan 2022 #81
Those "fantasies" he wrote in college. BlackSkimmer Jan 2022 #83
Impractical and unactionable dwayneb Jan 2022 #86
I don't Dorian Gray Jan 2022 #87
Ego JI7 Jan 2022 #89
His hard core Democratic party agenda. It's enviro commie soshlism!111!!! Roisin Ni Fiachra Jan 2022 #91

snowybirdie

(5,229 posts)
4. He is full of ideas
Fri Jan 14, 2022, 08:55 PM
Jan 2022

which aren't bad, but has been in the Senate a long time with very little action. All talk

LiberalFighter

(50,950 posts)
20. When he left college he didn't go back to NY.
Fri Jan 14, 2022, 10:05 PM
Jan 2022

Instead he went to Vermont with few minorities and did little.

Also, he runs as a Democrat to get Democratic opponents out of the way and then reverts back to Independent. And uses Democratic resources.

questionseverything

(9,656 posts)
21. The money for community healthcare clinics is a Bernie amendment
Fri Jan 14, 2022, 10:06 PM
Jan 2022

The time the fed got audited was Bernie sponsored

Veterans healthcare is an area he has legislative success

And he generally supports the other democratic senators legislation

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
31. Quite a record for 30 years in congress.
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 06:19 AM
Jan 2022

That last one, though, is also a problem...

Given that he's made a career out of "exposing," opposing and attacking Democrats as little better than Republicans -- and not always that!, as corrupt corporatists, of "once again" failing the people, etc.

SOP: Badmouth or outright attack the legislation and Democrats before, vote FOR it, badmouth afterward. Repeat criticisms as many times as the media will show them and his admirers are happy with him for speaking truth.

Turns my stomach a bit to mention it. Just not my style. But if he hadn't voted as a +1 for his Democratic colleagues' legislation, VT voters would have replaced him decades ago with a U.S. senator who would. Most likely that person would have worked hard for what he believed in and been proud of what he was able to accomplish.

But here Bernie still is. And that's the nice thing I have to say about him: He IS the choice of a majority of VT's voters and thus his presence is democracy and representative government at work.

panader0

(25,816 posts)
39. I think Bernie's lack of success in spite of his good ideas is akin to what Biden is experiencing.
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 09:07 AM
Jan 2022

Bernie's ideas make sense, therefore he has opposition in the Senate. He's an idealist in
a world of greedy people.

Response to Patterson (Original post)

brooklynite

(94,597 posts)
3. I support almost all of his policies...
Fri Jan 14, 2022, 08:54 PM
Jan 2022

…and have no expectation that he has the ability to deliver on them. I also think he would scare off more votes in Purple States than he would gain by inspiring a nascent working class and youth vote.

LuvLoogie

(7,011 posts)
5. The way he ran and extended his losing campaign against Hillary Clinton.
Fri Jan 14, 2022, 08:58 PM
Jan 2022

His wanting it both ways when it came to access to Democratic infrastructure while disparaging the Democratic party.

But he did give rise to people like AoC, who I think has the IT factor. For THAT, I will always appreciate him. For inspiring young talent.

FakeNoose

(32,645 posts)
6. He's not a member of our Party
Fri Jan 14, 2022, 08:58 PM
Jan 2022

Why isn't he a Democrat? Why does he think he can criticize us?
Why does he think he should be leading us?

It's not his policies, which I think are fine. But I won't vote for him.

Chainfire

(17,549 posts)
7. Bernie's greatest contribution to the nation is that he says what needs saying.
Fri Jan 14, 2022, 08:58 PM
Jan 2022

But he just as well leave it there, because there is no way in Hell he will ever be elected to the Presidency. I like the man, I like what he stands for, but he needs to stay away from any suggestion of running for the Presidency.

Chainfire

(17,549 posts)
82. It may be wrong and dumb, however, he is right. We have been losing ground since Reagan.
Sun Jan 16, 2022, 11:35 AM
Jan 2022

We have survived in fits and starts since Reagans time, but we are still going one step forward and two back. We have let the Fascist bastards gain far too much power. They have used emotional issues like guns and abortion to scare the hell out of the workers, and it has worked. We need to regain the trust of the working class people that we have lost to the haters. The Republicans have convinced far too many people that we are Socialist snowflakes that "hate freedom" and we don't seem to know how to turn that message around. The Republicans have convinced people that to fight for their share of the economic pie is Socialism. The have convinced people that a woman's right to control her body is a sin against God and that they are here to make that right. The Republicans are master liars, they understand the power of the big lie. As the middle class shrinks, the Republicans gain, they know this and that is why they hate free public education and unions.

If we don't figure out how to effectively use the power we have, we will become obsolete. This may be the last time that we hold power in all three branches of government and yet we are not achieving our goals nearly fast enough. Republicans know how to use power effectively and ruthlessly, perhaps we should have learned from them. We need to quit being the "nice guys" of government and bring out our Viking side to fight for justice. Our Representative Democracy is failing and this may be the last chance to fix it. Meanwhile we stumble from day to day wringing our hands over the next elections. If we don't figure it out how to use our power in the next 12 months, you can stick a fork in us. It is time to pull out the stops and be willing to take the pitchforks and torches to the streets if that is what is required.

Sanders is telling the truth, it is just too painful to admit it. That said, I believe that he is a good, honest man and makes a great cheerleader, but he does not have the necessary tools in his bag to make a great quarterback.

 

LENNY0229

(185 posts)
88. "We"? Everything would pass but for TWO people in the Senate. It is NOT "We" or "The Dems".
Mon Jan 17, 2022, 10:02 AM
Jan 2022

I will agree that Dems have not been consistent enough in party building or messaging over time,
but for him to trash the Dems while the R's have gone full on Nazi is dumb, naive, and short sighted.
Sometimes it has been very good. Other times it has been very weak. On that we agree.

But people vote for Trump because he is a loud nasty racist saying the rotten shit they want to hear, not because Dems
are "failing" to give them enough jobs, schools, roads, and healthcare. Dems are the ones who HAVE given
them those things while the R's have gone full Nazi and CUT all of those things. Bernie stupidly
FAILS to see the "cultural" issues that have really fueled working class people going to Trump and R's.
Unless Dems are willing to become the second WHITE RACIST PARTY then no matter what you do for MANY OR MOST of
those people IT WILL NOT MATTER. Bernie thinks he can flip West Virginia blue by giving them more jobs, schools, roads,
and healthcare. BULLSHIT!! Dems there like Richard Ojeda and others have run hard for office on those things
and tried like hell, but will not be racist so they lose there. (And "Guns, God, Gays, and Abortion" are also bit "cultural" issues for them. THAT is the TRUTH.

Right now EVERYTHING WOULD PASS IF NOT FOR JUST TWO SENATORS. YET BERNIE AND OTHER SELF-BLINDED PEOPLE
BLAME THE ENTIRE PARTY. AND THAT SHIT NEEDS TO STOP!

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
9. Hard to forget he almost primaried Obama, then went after Clinton in 2016.
Fri Jan 14, 2022, 09:11 PM
Jan 2022
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/02/sanders-obama-primary-challenge/606709/

His income puts him in top 1%, the group he criticizes.

Don’t disagree with his populist positions, but he knows it won’t happen, so it’s just populist talk. He’s not a Democrat.

Demsrule86

(68,586 posts)
34. Hoyt, you said exactly what I think...most of his ideas are Democratic Party ideas championed by
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 08:17 AM
Jan 2022

generations of Democrats. And he is not a Democrat and often criticizes the party. Also, I will admit I remain somewhat bitter about 2016...it was such an important election and we will likely lose Roe V Wade as a result of it...And the identity politics thing too.

As a woman, I was deeply offended by his support of Heath Mello who had not only voted for anti-choice legislation but had sponsored it while serving in the legislature in Nebraska.

https://ballotpedia.org/Fact_check/Heath_Mello%27s_voting_record_on_abortion


"Former Nebraska state Sen. Heath Mello, the Democratic candidate in Omaha’s mayoral race, was joined at an April 20 campaign rally by Keith Ellison, the deputy chairman of the Democratic National Committee (DNC), Nebraska Democratic Party Chair Jane Kleeb, and Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.)..."
"There is a spectrum of opinion about what constitutes “pro-choice” or “anti-choice” positions (or “pro-life” or “pro-abortion”). During Mello’s time in the Nebraska Senate (2009 through 2016), he voted on six abortion-related bills. He voted in favor of three bills that limited the conditions under which abortions are legally available, and he also voted in favor of three other bills that attached conditions in receiving abortion services.
In both his 2008 and 2012 state senate campaigns, Mello was endorsed by the political action committee of Nebraska Right to Life."

That being said...just like with Manchin and Sinema, we need him in order to have a majority so I welcome his support in the Senate. And I do agree with many of his ideas...and have for years.

betsuni

(25,537 posts)
35. "most of his ideas are Democratic Party ideas championed by generations of Democrats."
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 08:26 AM
Jan 2022

This is the point. Why anyone doesn't see this really obvious thing, I don't know.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,913 posts)
57. Because good ideas continually need strong champions
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 02:37 PM
Jan 2022

Yes most of his ideas are Democratic Party ideas championed by generations. And some of those were called Socialist Party ideas before they became identified as Democratic Party ideas. Ideas stand on their own without party labels, but they do not take root and flourish without constant promotion. Everything that Biden embraces, that Obama embraced, that Hillary and Kerry and Gore embraced have roots that go back to the likes of Thomas Paine, and others even earlier. Like the original Diggers in England for example. And for just as many centuries those ideas have attracted powerful enemies. It's a continuing struggle.

There's that expression, "there's nothing new under the sun." There's another one, "out of sight out of mind." When someone like Bernie Sanders makes it central to his politics to advocate for all workers receiving at least a living wage, he's not the first to do so, not by several centuries. Bernie's greatest strength is as a tireless advocate. One doesn't have to be the first or only person advocating for something in order for that advocacy to be important, and in some cases even critical. Bernie wasn't the first or only person advocating for a $15 minimum wage, or for free public college tuition, or for quality healthcare as a human right and not a privileged, or for supporting Organized Labor, or for a Social Security system robust enough to keep Seniors out of grinding poverty, or for any number of other progressive ideas championed by generations of Democrats, as you say. He however has been a steadfast strong advocate of such ideas, even when it was more in vogue to proclaim that "the era of Big Government is over." Today he is widely recognized as one of the leading advocates for such ideas, whose arguments in favor of them are often heard and/or read by tens of millions.

Heck, I often make very similar arguments myself, and mine are occasionally read by hundreds I register as a Democrat, but it seems he and I often carry very similar banners, it's just that Bernie's is a wee bit more visible than mine.

TheFarseer

(9,323 posts)
55. I'm not sure I understand
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 02:26 PM
Jan 2022

Heath Mello was the Democratic candidate. Should he have supported the Republican candidate?

And why would a primary challenge automatically make Hillary lose? Trump was in a much more bruising primary and he did fine.

Lancero

(3,003 posts)
90. Really gotta love the cognative dissonance in regards to supporting Heath Mello.
Mon Jan 17, 2022, 10:32 AM
Jan 2022

Attack Bernie Sanders for how often he criticizes the party... And when he decides to look to the party for guidance, attack him again when he decides to follow the parties lead.

He's doing nothing but following the parties stance in regards to Heath Mello. If you're attacking him for that, then congratulations - You're attacking the Democratic Party.

Honestly speaking? The most important role that Bernie Sanders fills for the Democratic Party is that of a scapegoat. Whenever the party makes a misstep - Be it a bad loss in a election, or supporting a sexist for a mayoral race - blame the outsider rather than our parties own leadership.

TheFarseer

(9,323 posts)
54. Hillary Clinton was NOT an incumbent President!
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 02:15 PM
Jan 2022

Some Democrats act like she was an incumbent and no one should have ran against her and that is NOT the case. And if you want to say that he tried to give reasons to vote for him over her - Yes, that’s what a primary is!

As for the “He IS rich argument”. That’s the dumbest argument. He advocates for higher taxes for himself, higher wages for minimum wage workers, free college, medical care etc etc. FDR was extremely wealthy. Do you think FDR was a huge hypocrite also? So yeah, criticize Bernie not the people who shamelessly use their position in Congress to engage in insider trading.

Jedi Guy

(3,193 posts)
59. I think the issue a lot of people have with the 2016 primary is this:
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 05:03 PM
Jan 2022

Even when it became mathematically impossible for him to secure the nomination, he still refused to concede. Once Clinton had secured the required number of delegates the primary was over, but Bernie fought on out of sheer stubbornness. His supporters caused a number of ugly scenes (LetMyPeopleVote here on DU has posted about them several times) and Bernie stayed mum about that. Bernie's surrogates continued making critical and disparaging remarks about Clinton and the Party throughout the general, and once again Bernie stayed mum about that.

It's one thing to fight a bruising primary, and you're right to point out that Trump won a bruising primary. But once he had prevailed, the GOP rallied around him for the general. Bernie refused to rally around the flag and by doing so, caused unnecessary damage to Clinton in the general. Was that the only reason she lost? No, and no one here is making that claim. Was it a contributing factor? Absolutely.

There's a chance that Clinton might have won in 2016 had Bernie conceded with class and dignity, so naturally there's going to be a lot of bitterness about his failure to do so potentially costing her the election. I think that's a lot of it, because it certainly moves the needle for me regarding my dislike of Bernie. Imagine how different the world of 2022 might be had Clinton won in 2016.

TheFarseer

(9,323 posts)
61. Thank you for the reasonable discussion
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 06:08 PM
Jan 2022

But here’s my rebuttal: It was never mathematically impossible because of the super delegates. If you want to say it was unlikely any of them would flip, that’s true, but it wasn’t impossible. I know Bernie held 39 rallies for her for the general. I’m not sure how fair it is to blame him for things his supporters did or the fact that some of them did not vote for Clinton in the general but I will point out a higher percentage of his voters voted for her than Clinton supporters voted for Obama in 2008 AND Bernie dropped out sooner than Clinton in 2008 - yet Obama managed to win.

Meanwhile, the GOP establishment tried to get Trump to drop out AFTER the convention because of the grab ‘‘em by the p***y”. Plus a lower percentage of Rubio and Kasich voters ended up voting for Trump than Bernie voters voted for Clinton. Btw I think Clinton herself blames James Comey.

Mike Nelson

(9,959 posts)
10. Well...
Fri Jan 14, 2022, 09:12 PM
Jan 2022

... Bernie is a good guy. But, since you asked... I know he supported Hillary Clinton, but there seems to be some reluctance on his part. It should have been sooner, and the last time he ran, I thought it would have been much smarter to praise her in every speech. He already had the Bernie voters - he needed the Hillary voters.

... Next, there was Elizabeth Warren. Again, there seemed to be something off-kilter there... there was again, a problem. It really showed at one of the debates ending. Probably, Bernie is not genuinely friendly with these women, but I'm sure they all respect each other. I hoped that would show more... and it may, still...

Ocelot II

(115,733 posts)
13. While I agree with many of his positions in a general way, he doesn't seem to have
Fri Jan 14, 2022, 09:36 PM
Jan 2022

moved past the '60s, and his notion that all of society's problems can be solved by legislating economic equality (if that were even possible) fails to take into consideration institutionalized racism - as if that would just go away if everybody had money and good jobs. Bernie is a one-trick pony, even if it's a good trick..

 

LENNY0229

(185 posts)
78. Yup! Also being a "socialist" is a national loser, and he only talks about government programs and
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 11:52 PM
Jan 2022

not ways to create more private sector jobs.

Hekate

(90,714 posts)
14. The fact he is a one-trick pony whose economic philosophy has not matured past 1965*, and...
Fri Jan 14, 2022, 09:41 PM
Jan 2022

… who really has little if any grasp of how women’s needs differ from men’s.
( * 1965? Maybe a lot earlier.)

In addition, he attracted the Bernie Bros, who were very misogynistic and dismissive of women ( I’m not forgiving their behavior toward Dolores Huerta or toward Hillary Clinton). He attracted the Bros — and neither repudiated them nor apologized for them.

Then there’s his opinion of who is at fault for everything not being a whole lot better: the Democrats. Democratic politicians and the Party are his go-to whipping boy year after year after year.

Thank you for asking, though.


George II

(67,782 posts)
40. Even his keystone policy, "Medicare for All", isn't his, and he's done little to advance it....
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 09:26 AM
Jan 2022

....beyond a slogan.

"Medicare for All" was originally the idea of a republican Senator from New York, Jacob Javits, in 1970. But republican Javits in the 1970s would be a left-leaning Democrat in the 21st century.

Raven123

(4,849 posts)
15. Democratic Socialist
Fri Jan 14, 2022, 09:51 PM
Jan 2022

While I agree with some of his proposals, his self identification as a socialist (makes no difference what kind) provides fodder for the GOP.

Poiuyt

(18,125 posts)
25. I came here to post that
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 01:36 AM
Jan 2022

He's no socialist, but Republicans use his label against him and also other Democrats.

betsuni

(25,537 posts)
16. He thinks the Democratic Party ignores the working class
Fri Jan 14, 2022, 09:56 PM
Jan 2022

because everyone's corrupted by campaign contributions, that they have the same economic policies as Republicans.

All of these quotes are Sanders' own words.

The other day: "in too many ways the Democratic Party has turned its back on the working class. ... The Democrats have to make it clear that they're on the side of the working class and ready to take on the wealthy and powerful."*

His message: "The point that I make over and over again ... is the ideas that I talk about are ideas that the American people want. They don't get it because you got a Congress indebted to wealthy campaign contributors."

Similar to both sides "politiphobes," the between 25 and 40 percent of Americans with a severely distorted view of how government and politics work (Jonathan Rauch):

"They see the contentious give-and-take of politics as unnecessary and distasteful. Specifically, they believe that obvious, commonsense solutions to the country's problems are out there for the plucking. The reason these obvious solutions are not enacted is that politicians are corrupt, or self-interested, or addicted to unnecessary partisan feuding."

*The Guardian interview. Headline says Sanders says the Democratic Party has failed, not a quote, and some people said no, no, no, he never said that. But he has many times in the past used that exact word. Not doing something (helping the working class) is failing to do it.

"The business model, if you will, of the Democratic Party for the last fifteen years or so has been a failure. Over the 30 or 40 years the Democratic Party has transformed itself from the party of the working class ... to a party significantly controlled by a liberal elite which has moved very far away from the needs of the working families in this country."

"And I think what Trump was able to do was pick up on the failures of the Democratic Party that did not talk about the fact that hard working decent people saw their jobs going to Mexico or China or people cannot afford to send their kids to college ... .

"The business model, if you like, of the Democratic Party for the last 15 years or so has been a failure. People sometimes don't see that because there was a charismatic individual named Barack Obama."

brooklynite

(94,597 posts)
56. In 2011 I had dinner with Bernie and Jane....
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 02:27 PM
Jan 2022

...at a DSCC retreat for its top dollar/1%er donors in Martha's Vineyard. Not clear why he was there if he thought the Party wasn't sufficiently pro-working class.

betsuni

(25,537 posts)
62. Guess back then donors were still human, later they became the donor class, billionaires, oligarchs
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 06:11 PM
Jan 2022

the 1% and other shadowy groups Democrats were beholden to and had to do everything they said and be just like Republicans.

Back then it was possible for a wealthy person to be liberal. Something happened, maybe when they became the "donor class," that made it impossible to be rich and progressive, so donations to Democrats had to be to make them do diabolical Republican neoliberal things bad for the working class.

Also, it became trendy to call Democrats corrupt if people working in finance donated money. We heard Wall Street Wall Street Goldman Sachs Wall Street a million times. Anyone working for corporations, same thing. Using campaign contributions to, like, pay for things was out of the question, had to go straight into Democrats pockets as they nibbled canapés and sipped champagne in smoke-filled back rooms with oligarchs and wealthy donors, giggling as they plot to rig elections and stop, at any cost, anything progressive to help the working class.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
17. Oh, he is very good at saying things agreeable to many of us, but...
Fri Jan 14, 2022, 09:56 PM
Jan 2022

that's pretty much where it ends.

His legislative prowess extends to signing on to left-wing bills when they are guaranteed to pass or fail. He can then continue his mantras and can be either a hero for the passed ones, or grovel in tears for the failed ones. He does have a few Post Offices he's renamed to his credit.

It's not so difficult to play to the heartstrings of the true believers. Look at the Republicans who have made this into an art. Spring away any actual positions, and Bernie speaks as they do, with the same results, it's just where he sings from is different.

Unlike, say, Warren, does he ever have a legislative podium with a chance of passing except in the imagination of his followers?


MrsCoffee

(5,803 posts)
18. I'd tell you, but we aren't allowed to talk about it here.
Fri Jan 14, 2022, 09:56 PM
Jan 2022

Something about rehashing something, and more than once.

The Magistrate

(95,247 posts)
19. Quite Some While Ago, Sir
Fri Jan 14, 2022, 10:03 PM
Jan 2022

His smears of Mrs. Clinton and claims she stole the nomination from him place him in a noxious category that hasn't many other members. The damage he did is incalculable, and in doing it the man placed himself outside the Pale.

I have been glad to note he's been a good team player at least for a couple of years now, but this shows signs of fraying. That is regrettable.

LetMyPeopleVote

(145,321 posts)
24. I was a Clinton delegate to the 2016 convention and saw this first hand
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 01:31 AM
Jan 2022

I still remember the Sanders delegates engaging in the planned stunts of booing John Lewis, Elijah Cummings, Jim Clyburn, Stacy Abrams and others. The Clinton campaign had a whipping infrastructure in place and my whip warned me 20 or 30 minutes in advance of each of the booing stunts. I was also at the Texas Delegation breakfast when 30 or so Sanders delegates marched in and demanded that we condemn Clinton and vote for Sanders. There was a mini-riot due this stunt.


My youngest child was my guest and had tickets for the first night of the convention where she got to hear Michelle Obama. She was also cornered at the hotel and yelled at by a group of Sanders delegates when she refused to try to get me to change my vote. They called her the c-word and yelled at her.

The day after the mini-riot, Sanders spoke to the Texas delegation and did not apologize for the prior day's riot and only talked about himself. It was not a good speech.

Going to a national convention is an once in a lifetime experience. It was not a fun experience but I did bring back some good swag

I was a day one contributor to Joe Biden and got to meet him at two fundraisers. Joe signed three floor speech signs that were used during his speech at the 2016 convention. We are lucky that Joe was the nominee.

LetMyPeopleVote

(145,321 posts)
68. I remember that attempt to stop the booing
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 10:18 PM
Jan 2022

Last edited Sun Jan 16, 2022, 03:21 AM - Edit history (1)

According to my whip, the Clinton campaign and the DNC asked Sanders to call off the booing of people like JOhn Lewis and sanders declined

betsuni

(25,537 posts)
77. And the Stein voter who organized a fart-in because of conspiracy theories about rigging
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 11:52 PM
Jan 2022

and Clinton being Establishment Wall Street Neoliberal Satan or whatever she and Bernie supporters believed. Ridiculous.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
36. So unfortunate that your daughter's first experience included
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 08:32 AM
Jan 2022

the despicable, anti-democratic behaviors of the Sanders delegates. At least the rest of his hooligan populists were outside. But, in spite of them, she and you were part of something magnificent and aspiring.



Btw, there's new, very well regarded research confirming that LW authoritarianism is real and bears strong resemblances to RW, and more coming. That may explain a lot of about Sanders' 'lock her up!' crowd, as well as those who always seem committed to their leader over democratic ideals.

LetMyPeopleVote

(145,321 posts)
69. My kids are active in politics
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 10:21 PM
Jan 2022

My youngest has been to a couple state conventions and has been working as an election judge for years. She may have gotten a mild case of COVID after the 2020 election where she had 19 unmasked voters in the first hour.

We were careful after she lost her sense of taste for a week and I managed to avoid getting COVID

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
85. Been without power and Internet.
Mon Jan 17, 2022, 09:19 AM
Jan 2022

Bet the conversation around your table when you get together is fun.

As for the unmasked delegates, hope they’re very angry at that poor tennis player and how unfairly he was treated.

We’re out in the car, heading back to the land of no Internet. Have a great day. Can you email her

GoCubsGo

(32,086 posts)
37. That's the sort of thing that did it for me, too.
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 08:46 AM
Jan 2022

That kind of garbage among his fan boys started early. I was strongly considering voting for him here in the South Carolina primary--until I started hearing all the misogynist crap his supporters were spewing--while he stood by and said nothing. I used to love the guy up until then. Now, not so much.

JohnSJ

(92,219 posts)
58. That fact that people who were part of his campaign refused to vote for Hillary in the general
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 04:30 PM
Jan 2022

election in 2016, and encouraged others to do likewise is a disgrace

Nina Turner, David Sirota, Brianna Joy Gray, Cornell West, etc., helped put trump in office by either voting third party or not voting

He was very weak in telling his supporters in 2016 why it was vital to vote for Hillary. Saying it wasn’t his job to convince his supporters to vote for Hillary was a massive mistake, and poor judgment

In every swing state, Hillary lost by less than 1%, and it n those critical swing states Jill Stein received 1% of the vote. It made all the difference, and definitely contributed to the SC court we have, and why we are in the position we are today

Ralph Nader did the same thing

empedocles

(15,751 posts)
23. Vermont, of all places, elected in 2020 republicon P. Scott, with 69.49% of the vote.
Fri Jan 14, 2022, 10:36 PM
Jan 2022
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Scott

[Not sure the Bernie type has much political pull].

LetMyPeopleVote

(145,321 posts)
26. I never considered Sanders to be a serious candidate
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 01:38 AM
Jan 2022

Sanders has no real legislative accomplishments in the real world

krawhitham

(4,644 posts)
28. After his 2016 run, He campaigned claiming he would remain a DEMOCRAT
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 02:14 AM
Jan 2022

“But he’s a member of the Democratic Party now for life?” Halperin pressed.
“Yes, he is,” Weaver said.


https://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/dem-primaries/277086-sanders-will-be-democrat-for-life-campaign-says


8 Days after the election he announced it was just BS
https://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/independent-bernie-sanders-democratic-leadership-231486


He basically attempted not once (2016) but twice (2020) a bloodless coup of the Democrat Party

betsuni

(25,537 posts)
32. LOL at "I consider myself closer to a Centrist." Too much, tone it down.
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 07:53 AM
Jan 2022

Last edited Sat Jan 15, 2022, 08:40 AM - Edit history (1)

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
38. His saying the 2016 primaries were rigged against him by democrats
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 08:48 AM
Jan 2022

while running in the dem primaries.

It gave Trump great ammunition. And wasn’t just him/trump saying democrats rig elections. Look at what they did to poor Bernie he would say.

Vinca

(50,278 posts)
41. I used to be a huge Bernie fan, but he lost me along the way because he would never concede
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 09:35 AM
Jan 2022

in the slightest in order to actually accomplish anything. He seems to have changed in that regard, but I find myself drawn more to the younger generation that's emerging. New voices, new ideas, new modes to get things done. Bernie's had a spectacular career and I imagine it will continue until his final hour on the planet.

ecstatic

(32,709 posts)
44. He says a lot of the right things, but he's divisive as hell.
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 10:06 AM
Jan 2022

But it's not just that. He's not a deep thinker. His understanding of the world is very limited and oversimplified, and when he's confronted with reality, he chokes (for example, the way he handled the VA scandal).

gulliver

(13,186 posts)
45. Terrible salesman...inconsistent two-edged sword
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 10:23 AM
Jan 2022

The man couldn't sell a grape to chimpanzee, yet he insists on being a sales lead on our team.

When he waxes conciliatory, gracious, and team-spirited he's at his strongest. When he's angry, scowling, and strident, he loses votes for our side and for the very things he's angry about and fighting for.

LizBeth

(9,952 posts)
46. He promises the world knowing he cannot deliver points fingers at Dems and blames,
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 10:23 AM
Jan 2022

accuses them. He has an ego that wants credit for things he does not do. He dismisses women and poc voices. He has a chip on his shoulder. He is dishonest and plays off being the most honest politician, and he is not. I was disgusted his pettiness and childish behavior in 2016 campaign.

kcr

(15,317 posts)
48. I agree with most of his positions
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 11:01 AM
Jan 2022

I also credit him in part for making many of those positions more popular. He lost me during the 2016 campaign when he should have conceded and didn't, making change much more difficult, if not impossible. He has great ideas, but he gets in the way of any ability to make them a reality.

librechik

(30,674 posts)
52. It's not Bernie, who I'm in agreement with for the most part. It's the Bros.
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 01:54 PM
Jan 2022

Can we not all just get along? Purifying the party is not the way to go.

L. Coyote

(51,129 posts)
53. "where does he lose you?" is an incorrect assumption.
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 01:56 PM
Jan 2022

Having a Putin operative, Manafort's partner, for a campaign manager should have been your first clue.

ismnotwasm

(41,989 posts)
60. Downplaying racism in inequalities
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 05:05 PM
Jan 2022

Full stop. And yes I know he was active in civil rights in the 60’s.

iemanja

(53,035 posts)
63. His attacks on the Democratic party
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 06:11 PM
Jan 2022

and on Hillary Clinton. Besides that, I agree with some of what he says.

cadoman

(792 posts)
79. he's the band member that can never sublimate into the group
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 11:55 PM
Jan 2022

Goes off on random solos, won't wear matching outfits, doesn't show up to rehearsals on time, etc.

Could have a decent solo career, but he's just hurting "the band" right now, so to speak. I guess not as badly as Manchin and Sinema are though..

BlueIdaho

(13,582 posts)
80. Not being a Democrat.
Sun Jan 16, 2022, 12:04 AM
Jan 2022

His desire to keep himself an arms length away from the Democratic Party is too cute by half.

ForgedCrank

(1,782 posts)
81. The only thing
Sun Jan 16, 2022, 12:10 AM
Jan 2022

I really consider a negative about him is viability and how much damage he does to the big picture.
He has never gained quite enough backing to win big, but he still jumps in anyway and siphons off critical numbers of needed votes.
I still don't understand why he can never manage an election winning amount of support because he promotes all the right policy and ideas, but he just doesn't get enough support and it always ends up hurting us in the big game.

dwayneb

(768 posts)
86. Impractical and unactionable
Mon Jan 17, 2022, 09:29 AM
Jan 2022

No one can question the accuracy of his statements or his enthusiasm.

But like many politicians, there is not a clear roadmap for how to proceed from his dreams to reality on the ground. Corporate dollars have corrupted our government; Neo-fascists are working hard every single day to destroy our democracy. We get it. We've known this for decades.

The question is what specifically and concretely do we DO to achieve his agenda? What's your plan? Where's your roadmap? Words are cheap. Waving a magic wand isn't going to cut it.

Dorian Gray

(13,496 posts)
87. I don't
Mon Jan 17, 2022, 09:32 AM
Jan 2022

hate him personally. He seems fine.

But I hate the cult of personality that built up around him. People who self identify as Berners and who would burn things down before they compromise.

JI7

(89,252 posts)
89. Ego
Mon Jan 17, 2022, 10:26 AM
Jan 2022

Lacks any interest in actual policy matters such as getting legislation passed. Discussing details . Just makes big statements without any understanding how to do things. Keeps talking about revolution and fighting the establishment such as planned parenthhood when he is a member of the Senate and has been in public office for decades .

Attacks those that actually passed things or try to pass things. People that work hard on legislation and details . Attacking others as not being perfect while having done nothing himself .

Hostility to women . Pro Gun Record . Blocked Obama appointees to postal board .

Praising failed states like Cuba and Soviet Union and not admitting he was wrong . Keeps claiming certain countries are socialist when they are not.

Friendship with Josh HAwley and other Right Wing Fools and feels cool to be around them such as Joe Rogan when the truth is they are using him to attack Democrats.

Never learns or listens to what people say such as certain White people telling us they are racist and that's what they vote on but he insists they are victims.

uninteresting, boring .

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