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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMike Pence knew before January 6th that there were states that sent in forged election documents.
Link to tweet
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@ReportsDaNews
BREAKING
@Maddow
- Mike Pence knew before January 6th that there were states that sent in forged election documents.
6:10 PM · Jan 17, 2022·Twitter Web App
maxsolomon
(33,345 posts)He's spoken about all the advice he solicited from, for instance, Dan fucking Quayle, over whether he had the authority to use the forged EC votes.
He didn't betray the Republic, but he also hasn't particularly helped since. Unless he testifies in front of the committee, fuck Mike Pence.
agingdem
(7,850 posts)we know Pence was a company man, Trump's lackey, so far up Trump's fat ass he could taste the Diet Coke..and even with all that bowing and scraping, sacrificing whatever integrity he had left, Pence knew he was Trump's sacrificial lamb..decertify the election and make his boss happy or become another Trump revenge target...which why he called Dan Quayle..he was looking for Quayle's "permission" to overturn the election...and my question is...what if Quayle had said yes, do it? ...I think if the violent mob had not breached the Capital demanding Pence's head in a noose, he would have gone along with "the plan"... Pence, that spineless nothing, is no hero
maxsolomon
(33,345 posts)I'm sure he'd have taken Pence's call.
I suspect you're right - Pence was looking for a way to acquiesce.
agingdem
(7,850 posts)after the general election and pre-insurrection his daughter Liz was already making "I hate Trump" noise......I wonder at what point Pence "got" that Trump was ok with a dead Vice President if the endgame was a successful Trump power grab?
blm
(113,061 posts)crickets
(25,980 posts)eta: Is there an echo in here? 😄
Everybody is going to wonder the exact same thing: did he discuss it with Dan? If so, how did that conversation go?
Cha
(297,240 posts)empedocles
(15,751 posts)brooklynite
(94,572 posts)The rump "electors" voting was on TV back in December. Never was a surprise.
bluesbassman
(19,373 posts)What is perplexing to me is why you feel it serves any purpose to try to downplay that fact.
dpibel
(2,831 posts)Back in December, there was coverage of lunatics gathering in state capitol parking lots and pretending to cast their electoral votes.
Was there then coverage of the fact that they sent fraudulent slates of electors to the National Archives?
I don't remember that part.
To me, that part is new.
But you. I suppose you knew it all along.
Why don't you link to some contemporaneous posts you made communicating that?
L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)That and a lot more, there are other revelations related to this part of the coup conspiracy coming to light now which we did not know.
There have been several good threads about this with real information.
Republican who signed forged 2020 certification ran Russian-style troll farm that paid teens to post
Ww saw they cosplaying electors in real time, but who knew they were stupid enough to violate the law so blatantly? It seemed like a joke and a scam.
onenote
(42,703 posts)https://www.vox.com/22173990/electoral-college-trump-biden-stephen-miller
https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2020/12/michigan-republicans-who-cast-electoral-votes-for-trump-have-no-chance-of-changing-electoral-college-result.html
I'm not saying that the fact that these efforts were made isn't news worth reporting, just that acting like there is something nefarious about Pence "knowing" about it in January ignores the fact that it was quite public at the time it was happening.
dpibel
(2,831 posts)I confess: Your NYT link is behind a paywall for me.
The other two are just exactly what I was talking about: They recount that these goofballs were pretending to be electors, but no one expected them to actually do much beyond performance. Your links certainly do not support the proposition that the fake electoral slates were submitted to the National Archives.
Glad we agree on this!
onenote
(42,703 posts)Last edited Tue Jan 18, 2022, 02:22 AM - Edit history (1)
and contradicts the assumption that the playacting electors weren't actually planning to do anything with the results of the fake votes.
Now, it appears you want to draw a distinction based on the fact that the articles refer to the fake slates having been sent to "Congress" not the Archives. I could respond by posting links to any number of articles that describe the legitimate slates as having been sent to "Congress" rather than specifically to the Archives.
But, in any event, here's one of several articles I could post from December that specifically refers to the Arizona fake slate having been sent to the Archives.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/12/14/arizona-groups-fake-electors-try-cast-11-electoral-votes-trump/6536056002/
And here's a portion of a legal brief filed by the Trump campaign in December 2020 that refers to the Wisconsin slate having been sent to "Washington".
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eo_ZxT7XUAIXtZp?format=png&name=medium
And then there's the January 5 article that describes the fact that, in response to a FOIA request, the Archives had provided NBC with information about several alternate slates that the Archives had received.(Not a very secretive effort if NBC knew enough to make a FOIA request).
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-leans-harder-pence-flip-election-results-n1252849
Finally, there are the stories about how Rachel Maddow recently "uncovered" the fake certificates. Which must come as a bit of a surprise to the organization that (apparently not drawing the distinction you are about news reports saying the slates were being sent to "Congress" or "Washington", obtained (via a FOIA request directed to the Archives) and published those very same certificates more than nine months ago. https://www.americanoversight.org/american-oversight-obtains-seven-phony-certificates-of-pro-trump-electors
I'm not saying that the fake slates aren't a big deal or that the perpetrators of them shouldn't be prosecuted. Just that it wasn't as if anyone was keeping it a big secret until last week.
L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)Last edited Tue Jan 18, 2022, 10:25 AM - Edit history (1)
There's a lot more being detail brought to light now, or at least people are getting details organized, like see the picture emerge on a jig saw puzzle. Check this thread with coup conspiracy details:
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
.... more ....
Kaleva
(36,301 posts)"ELECTION 2020|Dec 14, 2020,11:31am EST|60,045 views
Trump Campaign Assembling Alternate Electors In Key States In Far-Fetched Attempt To Overturn Election
Alison Durkee
Updated Dec 14, 2020, 03:22pm EST
TOPLINE In an unprecedented move, groups of self-styled electors arranged by the Trump campaign in battleground states won by President-elect Joe Biden will meet Monday to vote for President Trump and send results claiming he won the states presidential elections to Congress, White House advisor Stephen Miller said Monday, the latest of the presidents far-fetched attempts to challenge Bidens victorywhich, like his previous efforts, is almost entirely certain to fail."
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2020/12/14/trump-campaign-assembling-alternate-electors-in-key-states-in-far-fetched-attempt-to-overturn-election/?sh=7f53e213213a
crickets
(25,980 posts)L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)They've worn out their old ones digging their own holes.
The can't claim they thought they were right after they lost in court!
Kaleva
(36,301 posts)"The stories of the fake electors was reported over a year ago and discussed here at DU
"Attorney Ian Northon, special counsel for The Amistad Project of the conservative Thomas More Society, was with a group of Republican state lawmakers that failed to escort 16 GOP electors into the Michigan Capitol building Monday. Electors of president and vice-president are required by state law to convene in the Senate chamber at 2 p.m. on the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December following their election.
Northon said Republican electors sent alternative documents to Congress in case the state Legislature decides to replace Democratic electors. House Speaker Lee Chatfiled, R-Levering, and Senate Majority Leader Mike Shirkey, R-Clarklake, said they have no interest in replacing electors after facing pressure from Trump supporters during the last month."
https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2020/12/michigan-republicans-who-cast-electoral-votes-for-trump-have-no-chance-of-changing-electoral-college-result.html
"ELECTION 2020|Dec 14, 2020,11:31am EST|60,045 views
Trump Campaign Assembling Alternate Electors In Key States In Far-Fetched Attempt To Overturn Election
Alison Durkee
Updated Dec 14, 2020, 03:22pm EST
TOPLINE In an unprecedented move, groups of self-styled electors arranged by the Trump campaign in battleground states won by President-elect Joe Biden will meet Monday to vote for President Trump and send results claiming he won the states presidential elections to Congress, White House advisor Stephen Miller said Monday, the latest of the presidents far-fetched attempts to challenge Bidens victorywhich, like his previous efforts, is almost entirely certain to fail."
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2020/12/14/trump-campaign-assembling-alternate-electors-in-key-states-in-far-fetched-attempt-to-overturn-election/?sh=7f53e213213a
"Posted: Dec 14, 2020 / 04:22 PM PST / Updated: Dec 14, 2020 / 11:37 PM PST
"I-Team: Nevada Republican electors cast symbolic, meritless votes for President Trump
by: David Charns
Posted: Dec 14, 2020 / 04:22 PM PST / Updated: Dec 14, 2020 / 11:37 PM PST
LAS VEGAS (KLAS) Hours after Nevadas six electors cast their votes for President-elect Joe Biden through the official state process, the Nevada Republican Partys six electors signed paperwork signaling their support for President Donald Trump in a symbolic ceremony devoid of any legal merit."
https://www.8newsnow.com/news/politics/i-team-nevada-republican-electors-cast-symbolic-void-votes-for-trump/
"Wisconsin GOP electors meet to cast their own votes too - just in case
Published: Dec. 14, 2020 at 2:28 PM EST|Updated: Dec. 14, 2020 at 2:29 PM EST
MADISON, Wis. (WMTV) - Gov. Tony Evers and the nine other Democratic electors who met at the Wisconsin statehouse werent the only ones who gathered Monday to cast their ballots for President of the United States.
The Wisconsin Republicans had their electoral slate come together to cast their votes for President Donald Trump and Vice President Mike Pence, in hopes that the Democratic-controlled U.S. House of Representatives count their votes instead, the Associated Press reported."
https://www.nbc15.com/2020/12/14/wisconsin-gop-electors-meet-to-cast-their-own-votes-too-just-in-case/
"As electoral college formalizes Bidens win, Trump backers hold their own vote
By Haisten Willis, Jeremy Duda, Kathleen Masterson and David A. Fahrenthold
December 14, 2020
ATLANTA Republicans in six states won by President-elect Joe Biden held their own electoral college-style votes Monday for President Trump hoping that future court decisions would throw out Biden's votes and count the GOP ones instead.
These votes have no legal meaning, according to election law experts. The law only recognizes votes from electors chosen according to state law which, in every one of these states, is the Democratic electors.
But many Republicans who had been chosen to cast electoral votes for Trump still gathered to cast them. They said they were employing a tactic used by Democrats in Hawaii in an election 60 years ago casting votes that dont count, in the hopes that a later court decision would give them force.
This year, that seems very unlikely to work."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-backers-electoral-college/2020/12/14/f0fcc59c-3e52-11eb-9453-fc36ba051781_story.html
Here are links to OPs that discussed the news:
"Mon Dec 14, 2020, 03:45 PM
Fake electors try to deliver Arizona's 11 votes for Trump"
https://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=14710747
"Thu Dec 31, 2020, 07:53 PM
Real Biden Elector Moves to Intervene Against Fake Trump Electors Who Sued VP Pence:"
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214786069
"Thu Dec 24, 2020, 09:47 PM
AZ Sec of State Hobbs asks AG to investigate fake electors for using state seal"
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214758728
"Mon Dec 14, 2020, 07:20 PM
Over in Freeperville, they're all wet over "Alternate GOP Electors" giving Trump the win."
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214712142
"Mon Dec 14, 2020, 04:40 PM
In the spirit of fake electors,"
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214711050
"Mon Dec 14, 2020, 04:30 PM
Fake electors try to deliver Arizona's votes"
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214710987
And there's several more. An advanced search can find them."
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216247299
Blue Owl
(50,374 posts)FalloutShelter
(11,866 posts)Good one.
Bristlecone
(10,127 posts)Theres headlines in your future my friend!
calimary
(81,267 posts)Progressive Jones
(6,011 posts)milestogo
(16,829 posts)BobTheSubgenius
(11,563 posts)Little has changed, as I see it. Even if I was Mike Pence, I wouldn't ask Quayle's advice on anything.
Oh...maybe a recommendation for a barber/stylist. He always seemed to have good hair.
JI7
(89,249 posts)niyad
(113,315 posts)Progressive Jones
(6,011 posts)At this point in time, and probably much earlier, Pence has got to be kicking himself in the ass over
his scratching-his-way-to-the-top ways. He's gotten himself into deep shit, and he actually may not have seen it coming. He's a dupe. He's a placeholder. I'd guess that the GOP didn't even think Trump would last too long. He was already trouble before the 2016 election. They had to have a Central Casting Republican waiting in the wings.
The GOP is entirely made up of power grubbers, including Pence, and this is no defense of him, but I think that he got taken for a ride, for the most part. Boo Hoo. He knows what kind of crooks he's in with.
GB_RN
(2,355 posts)That Pence had the parliamentarians authenticate the electoral vote certificates by calling the Secretaries of State for the states that had fraudulent ballots/certificates submitted. He prevented a/the coup by ensuring the fraudulent certs weren't in the count.
Edit to add: This isn't to give Pence any praise for doing the right thing, when he obviously debated whether he had to do the right thing to begin with.
calimary
(81,267 posts)I'd bet he's gonna start trying to position himself as the next republi-CON go-to, in case trump fails. I'd also bet if trump doesn't fail, Pence could be bracing NOT to be invited onto the ticket again. He knows trump holds grudges and no loyalty he ever showed in all the years before now will matter a bit.
I think he's damaged goods for the rest of his political life. I am NO fan of Dan Quayle, but at least he went out with some dignity, directly into discreet retirement. I don't think Pence is even that smart.
Thomas Hurt
(13,903 posts)gab13by13
(21,345 posts)Kaleva
(36,301 posts)Ford_Prefect
(7,901 posts)There are no clean hands here. But IMO he deserves credit for doing the right things including refusing the ride away from the capitol which would have halted the count until he could return.
We now know things were more complicated than the choice to go with Trump or with Congress. There was going to be a longer sequence of events taking place leading to a possible quite bloody coup. Pence knew enough of it to stop the part he was supposed to play from working.
I will never vote for the guy.
But he isn't Eastman, or Flynn, or Bannon, or Miller (either one of them), or Meadows. I think some of the anger at him shown above may be misplaced. I reserve the right to hear the whole truth before final judgement.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)The names and signatures were real people right? And each real person signed their own signature right? Or not?
It's the document that's a invalid document/list of people who are not really electors? If that's true, the document is fraudulent??? Not forged.
Takket
(21,568 posts)The document itself was a forgery of a real approved electoral vote certificate.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Kaleva
(36,301 posts)Scroll down and you can find the real electors, by name, of each state:
https://ballotpedia.org/Electoral_College_members_from_Montana,_2020
Takket
(21,568 posts)They didnt just pull them off the street. The poster was asking if the signatures of drumpf electors were forged. I.e. if bob jones was selected to be a drumpf elector but Tammy Smith signed Bob Jones named and never told him about it.
Bob Jones signed his own name. But the document itself was complete BS.
Kaleva
(36,301 posts)Everybody would know that any piece of paper that didn't contain the signatures and names of the actual certified elector's wouldn't be legit and had no legal standing.
onenote
(42,703 posts)For example, this is the Wisconsin Forgery statute:
943.38 Forgery.
Whoever with intent to defraud falsely makes or alters a writing or object of any of the following kinds so that it purports to have been made by another, or at another time, or with different provisions, or by authority of one who did not give such authority, is guilty of a Class H felony:
(a) A writing or object whereby legal rights or obligations are created, terminated or transferred, or any writing commonly relied upon in business or commercial transactions as evidence of debt or property rights; or
(b) A public record or a certified or authenticated copy thereof; or
(c) An official authentication or certification of a copy of a public record; or
943.38(1)(d) (d) An official return or certificate entitled to be received as evidence of its contents.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Kaleva
(36,301 posts)The names of the reall electors is knowledge avilble ot the public and can be easily found.
Here is a link to a site where you can find the names of all the certified electors:
https://ballotpedia.org/Electoral_College_members_from_Montana,_2020
You won't find the names of the fake electors because they weren't "real" electors.
onenote
(42,703 posts)People keep acting like this was a big secret. Stephen Miller went on Fox and bragged about it. Trump's lawyers referenced it in a court filing. And it was reported by NBC on January 5 that the Archives had announced that it wasn't sending the bogus certificates to the Capitol.
Anyone paying attention knew.
https://electionlawblog.org/?p=120239
ttps://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/15/technology/fake-dueling-slates-of-electors.html
https://www.vox.com/22173990/electoral-college-trump-biden-stephen-miller
https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-afs:Content840583269
Kaleva
(36,301 posts)Botany
(70,506 posts)In November of 2016 he was quoted as saying that the democrats would use Russian interference
to legitimize TFG's "win."
Kaleva
(36,301 posts)"The stories of the fake electors was reported over a year ago and discussed here at DU
"Attorney Ian Northon, special counsel for The Amistad Project of the conservative Thomas More Society, was with a group of Republican state lawmakers that failed to escort 16 GOP electors into the Michigan Capitol building Monday. Electors of president and vice-president are required by state law to convene in the Senate chamber at 2 p.m. on the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December following their election.
Northon said Republican electors sent alternative documents to Congress in case the state Legislature decides to replace Democratic electors. House Speaker Lee Chatfiled, R-Levering, and Senate Majority Leader Mike Shirkey, R-Clarklake, said they have no interest in replacing electors after facing pressure from Trump supporters during the last month."
https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2020/12/michigan-republicans-who-cast-electoral-votes-for-trump-have-no-chance-of-changing-electoral-college-result.html
"ELECTION 2020|Dec 14, 2020,11:31am EST|60,045 views
Trump Campaign Assembling Alternate Electors In Key States In Far-Fetched Attempt To Overturn Election
Alison Durkee
Updated Dec 14, 2020, 03:22pm EST
TOPLINE In an unprecedented move, groups of self-styled electors arranged by the Trump campaign in battleground states won by President-elect Joe Biden will meet Monday to vote for President Trump and send results claiming he won the states presidential elections to Congress, White House advisor Stephen Miller said Monday, the latest of the presidents far-fetched attempts to challenge Bidens victorywhich, like his previous efforts, is almost entirely certain to fail."
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2020/12/14/trump-campaign-assembling-alternate-electors-in-key-states-in-far-fetched-attempt-to-overturn-election/?sh=7f53e213213a
"Posted: Dec 14, 2020 / 04:22 PM PST / Updated: Dec 14, 2020 / 11:37 PM PST
"I-Team: Nevada Republican electors cast symbolic, meritless votes for President Trump
by: David Charns
Posted: Dec 14, 2020 / 04:22 PM PST / Updated: Dec 14, 2020 / 11:37 PM PST
LAS VEGAS (KLAS) Hours after Nevadas six electors cast their votes for President-elect Joe Biden through the official state process, the Nevada Republican Partys six electors signed paperwork signaling their support for President Donald Trump in a symbolic ceremony devoid of any legal merit."
https://www.8newsnow.com/news/politics/i-team-nevada-republican-electors-cast-symbolic-void-votes-for-trump/
"Wisconsin GOP electors meet to cast their own votes too - just in case
Published: Dec. 14, 2020 at 2:28 PM EST|Updated: Dec. 14, 2020 at 2:29 PM EST
MADISON, Wis. (WMTV) - Gov. Tony Evers and the nine other Democratic electors who met at the Wisconsin statehouse werent the only ones who gathered Monday to cast their ballots for President of the United States.
The Wisconsin Republicans had their electoral slate come together to cast their votes for President Donald Trump and Vice President Mike Pence, in hopes that the Democratic-controlled U.S. House of Representatives count their votes instead, the Associated Press reported."
https://www.nbc15.com/2020/12/14/wisconsin-gop-electors-meet-to-cast-their-own-votes-too-just-in-case/
"As electoral college formalizes Bidens win, Trump backers hold their own vote
By Haisten Willis, Jeremy Duda, Kathleen Masterson and David A. Fahrenthold
December 14, 2020
ATLANTA Republicans in six states won by President-elect Joe Biden held their own electoral college-style votes Monday for President Trump hoping that future court decisions would throw out Biden's votes and count the GOP ones instead.
These votes have no legal meaning, according to election law experts. The law only recognizes votes from electors chosen according to state law which, in every one of these states, is the Democratic electors.
But many Republicans who had been chosen to cast electoral votes for Trump still gathered to cast them. They said they were employing a tactic used by Democrats in Hawaii in an election 60 years ago casting votes that dont count, in the hopes that a later court decision would give them force.
This year, that seems very unlikely to work."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-backers-electoral-college/2020/12/14/f0fcc59c-3e52-11eb-9453-fc36ba051781_story.html
Here are links to OPs that discussed the news:
"Mon Dec 14, 2020, 03:45 PM
Fake electors try to deliver Arizona's 11 votes for Trump"
https://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=14710747
"Thu Dec 31, 2020, 07:53 PM
Real Biden Elector Moves to Intervene Against Fake Trump Electors Who Sued VP Pence:"
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214786069
"Thu Dec 24, 2020, 09:47 PM
AZ Sec of State Hobbs asks AG to investigate fake electors for using state seal"
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214758728
"Mon Dec 14, 2020, 07:20 PM
Over in Freeperville, they're all wet over "Alternate GOP Electors" giving Trump the win."
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214712142
"Mon Dec 14, 2020, 04:40 PM
In the spirit of fake electors,"
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214711050
"Mon Dec 14, 2020, 04:30 PM
Fake electors try to deliver Arizona's votes"
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214710987
And there's several more. An advanced search can find them."
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216247299
Vinca
(50,273 posts)If fraudulent electoral ballots submitted as real aren't a crime, I don't know what is.
Kaleva
(36,301 posts)Mr. Ected
(9,670 posts)What's revelatory is that, immediately thereafter, the MSM dropped the ball and it's only now being analyzed as a part of a broad conspiracy to overthrow the election.
Once the MSM moves on, the news it reported typically moves on with it. So glad we're final revisiting the details and underscoring the relevance of each individual instance.
Mueller Report anyone?