I'm shocked at how hard the news about Griswold being on the chopping block hit me...

[Hekate]

Last edited Mon Feb 21, 2022, 07:07 PM - Edit history (1)

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216377373

Years ago I knew the fanatics were gunning for contraceptives as well as abortion — that abortion was just a smokescreen. A very, very emotional and effective smokescreen.

How did I know? The first time I saw that the most popular and most effective forms of contraception were being redefined as agents for causing abortion. Did you know that the Pill doesn’t prevent ovulation? It just causes the fertilized egg to die. Did you know that using an IUD is like having an abortion every month? And so on.

We focus on Roe to the exclusion of its antecedents. So today’s news that there are legislators and would-be attorneys general who are consciously going after Griswold was just a punch in the gut. From the SCOTUS decision that couples have a right to privacy under the Constitution flowed so much else — basically all of reproductive rights for individuals, not just married people — and gay marriage, and on to ramifications we can’t even foresee.

The old laws that were superseded by Griswold and Roe and Obergefeld — they are still on the books in the 50 states. Did you know that? They lie there like a rake in the grass — or if you prefer, a snake in the grass — because a rake may whack you, but a snake can kill you.

When my husband asked me why I looked so upset this morning, I tried to tell him and started crying. I would have sobbed outright, but he kept trying to talk long-range philosophy until I told him to just please stop. I love the guy, you know that, but really, this is a catastrophe in the immediate sense.

I’d call my best friend and have a mutual rant for an hour — but she just had a mini-stroke last week that affects her verbal processing and it just would not be kind.

So here I am, splashing on my iPad. Thanks, DU, for listening.

PS: WE TOLD YOU THE LAST 30 YEARS OF ELECTIONS WERE ABOUT SCOTUS. WE TOLD YOU.

[Texaswitchy]

1. More white babies.

For the right wing element.

[Hekate]

2. More babies, period. Women from puberty to menopause will be right where (some) men want them...

…out of higher education and no longer competing for the careers that rightfully belong to white men.

Women, the brainless sluts, will be having one baby after another the way Gawd intended.

[Irish_Dem]

19. Yes they are very afraid of losing the white majority.

So it is going to be baby making time for white women.

[leftieNanner]

33. It's likely going to be poor women

who will not be able to access contraception. Same with abortion. People of means will always be able to get those things.

This makes me sick!

[Irish_Dem]

35. Yes, it will be poor women.

People of means always got taken care of.

Yes it is sickening.

[NullTuples]

52. Ah, but that's where churches & the Federal "Faith Based Initiatives" come in.

In the early 2000's, that was the name of the vast set of programs set up by the Bush Administration to replace government or explicitly secular-agency provided social services with Christian church provided ones. At amounts in the range of 20 million USD per contract, it was just too big a payback to overlook. Just because Republicans say they want things privatized doesn't always mean by corporations.

[Irish_Dem]

58. Right the GOP social network will provide "help."

And make a lot of money while doing their dirty deeds.

[calimary]

56. THIS!!! THIS, Dammit!

DAMMIT!!!

[Hekate]

60. Exactly. "The rich get richer and the poor get children."

[wnylib]

55. I doubt that it will happen. Too many

people, including Republicans, use birth control.

[Hekate]

59. All the best and most reliable contraceptives, including Plan B, have been in their crosshairs...

… for years. Because “abortion.”

You tell me what that portends.

[wnylib]

65. As far as I know, the claim

that the pill "kills" a fertilized egg is on shaky ground. The pill works primarily by preventing ovulation. What about the women on the pill who get pregnant and carry full term? The fertilized egg in those cases did not fail to implant even if the uterine lining did thicken from the pill. I don't think it has been absolutely proven, or could be proven, that an egg that releases despite the pill and gets fertilized WILL fail to implant.

Besides, it can happen naturally that a fertilized egg would not implant in women who are not using birth control.

The IUD is designed to prevent implantation of a fertilized egg.

But, to outlaw these forms of birth control is to make the Catholic (and evangelical) definition of pregnancy and the start of personhood the law of the land, which violates freedom of religion. It is a theological position, not a scientific one.

Of course there are still other, less convenient forms of birth control.

But I would fight the abolition of pills and IUDs on grounds of freedom from the imposition of the theology of some religions on everyone. Same with abortion.

[Hekate]

67. You know how the RW propaganda machine lies all the time? And you know how many believe them--

Yes?
And you’ve heard about all the “conscience” exceptions for pharmacists, doctors, nurses, and hospitals —oh, and employers, too— who are anti-choice. Yes? This is already in place.

I’ve supported Planned Parenthood going-on 60 years, and I know the science. I’ve been politically active as a Democrat just about the same length of time, so I thought I knew the politics.

So go right ahead. Tell anti-choice legislators what the real science of contraception is — they have already heard it and they do not give a shit.

[Celerity]

69. I've seen forced birthers call contraceptives 'preemptive abortion/murder' (or 'de facto') for years

[ShazzieB]

115. So have I.

Republicans are people who believe women don't get pregnant from rape because "the female body has ways to try to shut the whole thing down" (https://time.com/3001785/todd-akin-legitimate-rape-msnbc-child-of-rape/) or wonder if a gynecological exam can be done by by a woman swallowing a camera (https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/02/vito-barbieri-anti-abortion-idaho-republican-asks-if-you-can-reach-the-vagina-through-the-digestive-system.html).

Those are extreme examples, but a lot of Republicans ARE that stupid, and a lot of the ones who aren't are willing to nod and go along with the stupid if it means being able to pass laws to control women.

[wnylib]

70. But there are many men and women

who oppose abortion, but not birth control and would not buy into the opposition to these forms of it. I am thinking that there are enough of them who would not vote for someone who opposes birth control.

[Hekate]

73. Every election cycle since 2000 (or earlier) I have hammered on the issue of SCOTUS...

Last edited Tue Feb 22, 2022, 03:08 AM - Edit history (1)

And time after time a Republican becomes President.

It happened at DU. Getting Democrats to focus — well, herding cats hardly begins to describe it. People crow that they don’t belong to any organized party — they are Democrats. I point out that Will Rogers has been dead a long time and that joke is past its expiry date. People say they’re gonna send a message. I point out we only have 2 parties.

And on and on it goes. Nobody cares about the High Court until suddenly we have a 6-3 majority of radical right wingers.

Republicans. Play. Dirty. Mitch McConnell shoved thru THREE Justices in record time. He will stall on this one too, if Dems don’t stop him.

[barbtries]

66. and they won't stop.

they will never stop getting abortions when they need them. hypocrisy is one of the major hallmarks of republicanism. laws aren't for them. well, they are, but to serve their ends, not to ever interfere with how they live their lives. Laws are tools.

[wnylib]

68. Many decades ago, in my 20s,

I worked with a young woman who was actively involved in the anti abortion movement, based on religion (Catholic). She was helping to support her fiance in law school. She knew that I was pro choice.

One day she asked me if I knew of a clinic she could go to for an abortion because the city we lived in was small enough for her to have privacy concerns. There were only two hospitals, and one was Catholic. I said I was surprised because of her activism. Her answer was that she still believed that it was wrong, but just could not have a baby at that time because of the expense and her fiance's future. I didn't know of any clinics but suggested a couple places she could contact to find one.

[barbtries]

71. it's not the first time i've heard similar stories.

they think they have the right to attack others for having abortions but somehow when it's them in that position it's different.

truly disgusting.

[Hortensis]

28. This was a religiosocial concern long before the dummies learned they

should worry about the demographic progression. It's mainly about forcing traditional roles on women, but also infringes on the reproductive rights of men and would force traditional parenthood roles and larger families on men.

And the racist dummies would be the first to insist and worry that POC have more children. Whether it's true or not and who actually would is irrelevant to that attitude, so they'd assume limiting contraception would create more of POC.

It is true, though, that shrinking population is a problem for those who resent immigration of people who are "different." Given that economies need to get replacements for labor somewhere.

[moniss]

39. Also

one of the reasons that they try to get felony raps on POC starting in school so they can't vote unless they get "forgiven".

[Ocelot II]

3. Will they go after Loving v. Virginia, too?

That case was decided under a different theory - the right to equal protection under the 14th Amendment - but also under a right not enumerated under the Constitution: the right to marry. Loving is the foundation for Obergefell v. Hodges, holding the states may not ban same-sex marriages. But if the unenumerated right to privacy that was the foundation of Griswold is thrown out, what happens to the unenumerated right to marriage that supports Loving and Obergefell? The originalists on the court - Thomas, Alito, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh and Barrett - don't believe there are such things as unenumerated constitutional rights; if it isn't spelled out it isn't there.

[Hekate]

5. God only knows. The relentless sonsabitches now have the Court they wanted.

[Ocelot II]

54. Overturning Loving could be a bit awkward for Clarence Thomas

and his Trumpazoid wife.

[moniss]

32. Actually

the conservatives have been attacking everything including the 14th Amendment. They never liked any of the Warren Court decisions that protected rights for people. For example they hated Miranda with a passion and openly ridiculed it relentlessly for years. It was a 5 to 4 decision. They also hated Escobedo which gave people the right to have an attorney present during questioning. That decision was also 5 to 4. Escobedo came during alarming concern about police interrogation practices. The right would like very much to let the cops beat confessions from people etc. Notice how that is exactly what they had John Yoo gin up a legal defense for and they dressed it up by calling it "enhanced interrogation techniques" when by any definition it is plain old torture.

[leftieNanner]

36. Does this mean we can boot Amy off the court?

Women weren't even allowed to vote in the original Constitution.

[ShazzieB]

41. Well...

The thing is, Amy's not the only woman on the court. She's only one of what will soon be four, counting Sonia, Elena, and Biden's yet-to-be-named pick to replace Breyer. Can't boot Amy based on her gender without booting the other three.

[moniss]

38. They

have a particular axe to grind about Loving because it was an interracial couple. Everything for them goes back to their misogyny, racism, etc. and notice how these folks also revel in violence as portrayed in action movies, TV cop shows, MMA etc. They get off on that stuff because their "hero" always inflicts damage on "them". Not surprisingly there is a very strong component in their circles that don't like women having the vote either.

[CTyankee]

106. I read that Justice Ginsburg had concerns about Roe v. Wade being foundational to a woman's right

to choose. She thought it was the due process case would be the better way (e.g. not as vulnerable). I often ponder that when I see where we are going with the right to choose. So much could be swept away without protections under Roe.

[MineralMan]

4. Yes! SCOTUS. WE FAILED TO ELECT HILLARY.

Because not progressive enough or something. We got Trump and three right-wing justices.

I guess the purists showed everyone, eh?

Fail...

[Hekate]

6. Hillary was not inspiring. She didn't have charisma. They wanted Bernie. Or something. I know...

I know: They were perfectly fine with voting for a woman for POTUS— just not that one.

[MineralMan]

8. And now, they don't like Kamala Harris "that way..."

We're screwed if this trend continues.

[soldierant]

25. Misogyny is stronger than racism.

I first saw that with perfect clarity oin 2000. And nothing has changed, nor will anythig change any time soon.

But - just as peole get called racists for pointing out that racism exists, I will be called a misogynist for pointing out the strength of misogyny.

And yet, we cannot afford to ignore it. The future of democracy - ANY democracy - is at stake.

[MineralMan]

27. Sadly, you are correct.

There are misogynists and incels who are Democrats, too.

[OMGWTF]

45. The stupid story of Adam and Eve was the birthplace of misogyny.

Every evil in the world is a woman's fault. For that, you must be punished.

[electric_blue68]

53. Shirley Chisholm said she faced even more misogyny, than racism

[Farmer-Rick]

88. Yeah, every race and religion has their own mysoginist traditions

Because race is arbitrary. It is poorly defined and difficult to differentiate. Hitler's Nazis hated Slavs. He thought they were subhuman. Slavs are people in Russia, Ukraine, Poland etc....And now Putin is talking just like Hitler. I read here how white the Russian people are and that white Supremacists would embrace the Slovs like Putin, and Malania. No they wouldn't. Slavs are considered an inferior race to Nazis. And yet Slavs are promoting Nazi values.

There is no genetic definition of race. When you get those ancestry tests they are looking to match your DNA to a specific location not to a specific DNA. Their data base has DNA from each country that they identify as more likely to occur there. But that DNA match can and does occur in other locations. Population s move around a lot. Your ancestry identity that is you get from those corporations can be very, very wrong. It all depends on how accurate their DNA samples from those countries are. How thoroughly their sampling is.

Anyway, sex is not so hard to identify and so men have developed all sorts of nonsense to force women to do what they want. Forcing unwanted children on women is just another tool to abuse women and children.

Take a look at Romanian orphans.

Under Nicolae Ceaușescu, both abortion and contraception were forbidden. Ceaușescu believed that population growth would lead to economic growth. In October 1966, Decree 770 was enacted, which banned abortion except in cases in which the mother was over forty years of age or already had four children in care. Birth rates especially rose during the years of 1967, 1968 and 1969. By 1977, people were taxed for being childless. Children born in these years are popularly known as decreței (from the diminutive of the Romanian language word "decret", meaning "decree" ) . This increase in the number of births resulted in many children being abandoned in orphanages, which were also occupied by people with disabilities and mental illnesses. Together, these vulnerable groups were subjected to institutionalized neglect, physical and sexual abuse, and drug use to control behaviour.

This is the vision of the American oligarchy and religious idiots.

[niyad]

98. Every patriarchal and/ or abrahamic belief system.

[soldierant]

113. Is there a culture (not individuals but a whole dominant culture) which doesn't have

one or the other or both?

Some believe that partiarchy came oabout from men taking over a previous matriarchal society. I have yet to be convinced of that.

[niyad]

118. Well, since you have closed your mind to the evidence, there is no point.

[soldierant]

112. "Anyway, sex is not so hard to identify " -at least, in their bubble, it's not

supposed to be so hard to identyfy.

Which would explain their hatred of LBBTQ etc. How do you know who you can discriminate against if gender is fluid?

[Farmer-Rick]

117. Oh, good point

I never understood that hate for Trans folk. I mean in their minds, every woman would want to be a man.

But that makes sense and of course those who transition to men frequently can't do their womanly duty of endlessly popping out those babies.

[MadameButterfly]

50. That was an unecessary dig at Progressives

She wasn't my pick in the primaries but I knew what was at stake in the general. It's not productive right now to try to divine why some people stayed home. I might have a different opinion than you on that, and we don't need to go there.

Divisions in the party aren't caused by allowing democracy in our primaries. They are caused by repeatedly blaming one faction or another for our problems.

[Hekate]

57. MadameButterfly, unless you were here at DU to experience the ugly infighting...

…please do not tell us what happened and why.

That is the kindest way I can put it to a new DUer.

[3Hotdogs]

61. Hillary's campaign was preceded by what--- 25 years of constant right wing hatred.

It started around the time of Rush. --- White Water... 60 Minutes, "Stand By Your Man," Vince Foster and on and on. As for the '16 primary. I felt there was no way she was going to overcome that. So in the primary, I voted for Bernie.

In the general, I voted for Hillary.

[Hekate]

62. It was not a dig at Progressives per se. At all. Repubs hated her on sight back in Arkansas. nt

Last edited Mon Feb 21, 2022, 09:20 PM - Edit history (1)

[MadameButterfly]

122. There really was a vast right wing conspiracy,

besides the Russians, Comey, and the Electoral College. i get that she got a raw deal.

It's just all those people weren't the ones upset she wasn't progressive enough.

Sorry I over-reacted. This is not that important.
Point is, Hillary should have been president and we wouldn't be in this mess, including with SCOTUS

[calimary]

96. Yep. I remember that.

I remember when it got so bad that some of us actually had to evacuate.

[Hekate]

103. Yes, that too. And after Obama got elected (another cycle of high emotion) I hid out in the BOG...

…for about 5 years, pretty much confining my conversations to people who liked him or at least didn’t want to crucify him for not being the Messiah. (BOG = Barack Obama Group)

[Paladin]

104. +1000. I sure as hell haven't forgotten. (nt)

[MadameButterfly]

119. i do recall

because my husband was on DU then and complained about how ugly it had gotten.

i apologize for over-reacting to your comment. I've been listening to radio talk shows blaming Progressives for everything that comes along (that the Republicans are doing), so it pushed a button.

However, I don't need to have been on DU to know what happened in the election nor do I want to tell you what happened back then.

Right now it just seems to me moderate and progressive Dems might do better to pull together against the fascists, that's all.

[MineralMan]

72. No, it was not. Truly.

[calimary]

110. Welcome to DU, MadameButterfly.

Well, as I recall, the fire and brimstone came from those progressives supporting an unnamed Senator from the Northeast, aimed squarely and sometimes viciously at those of us who preferred Hillary Clinton. As I recall (and certainly my memory could be faulty), we were almost literally run off the board to avoid what had become nasty and seriously toxic.

And painfully enough, the aforementioned unnamed Senator thoughtfully and courteously bowed out early when Biden became the clear frontrunner during Campaign 2020. I wish he'd done so in 2016, but he insisted on remaining stubborn and unreasonable til the convention when he sat up in the rafters and pouted during her acceptance speech (the cameras repeatedly cut to him so it was hard to miss). He never even cracked a smile at her, while she spent several minutes - during HER moment in the sun - praising him, acknowledging him, and thanking him for support he refused to give her til it was too little and too late.

And I originally did like him, until that night. That night just completely changed my opinion of him, and not for the better.

I wish he'd been the kind of team player in 2016 that he was in 2020 (which I did very much appreciate, and I've said so). REALLY disappointing during the 2016 campaign, though. And highly illuminating.

[betsuni]

120. +1

[MadameButterfly]

121. He didn't do anything

Hillary didn't do in 2008. They both wanted to run in California. He wanted his people to be represented in the platform. She wanted to change the rules in Michigan. Then Bernie did more campaign appearances for Hillary than she did for Obama. And throughout the primaries he never went after her emails despite much pressure to do so.

If we can't have tough primaries, then we aren't as democratic as we claim to be. Obama recovered and made her Secretary of State.

Biden learned from 2012 and chose to include ideas in his platform that represented the progressive wing of the party.

[bucolic_frolic]

7. What will their mistresses do?

Because these are the ones that lead that type of life.

[EYESORE 9001]

10. Those with connections, money, and power have never had to be worried

It’s the poor and disenfranchised who will suffer. Same as it ever was.

[Irish_Dem]

13. Wealthy powerful men always make sure their wives, girlfriends, daughters

have access to birth control and abortions. They have access to the best quiet, discreet, confidential medical care.

[moniss]

29. Back

in my time the big shots would send their daughters "to vacation with their Aunt" or other types of crap.

[Hekate]

79. The Booth Home was operated by the Salvation Army. Dunno what the Catholics called theirs...

“Just a little girl in trouble.” “She got herself in trouble.” High school girls having sex — whoda thunk it?

Those places were the pipeline to adoption, in the days before good fertility treatments. There were lots and lots and lots of white babies, so many that some adoptive couples could pick and choose an ethnic background to match their own, so the children really did look like them. But most just picked “white,” because they just wanted a baby.

Then, a couple of things happened. There was The Pill —which was not available to all women, especially under-21s. And there was legalized abortion. — And a third thing: the stigma of having an illegitimate baby (odious term) began to lessen and over the decades went away.

The supply of adoptable (white) babies just about dried up. I keep mentioning race because that was the majority demographic in those days.

Life is strange.

[moniss]

82. Right

you are to bring that aspect to the discussion. Also people don't realize/remember how being a pregnant teen could create horrible outcomes. Many suicides, teens beaten by their angry fathers, teens thrown out of their house etc. Not least of all the crazy dangerous "home remedy" attempts at abortion/miscarriage. Throwing yourself down a stairs, having someone repeatedly punch you in the stomach, the proverbial coat hanger etc. The psychological/physical damage was often catastrophic.

I remember when I was a young man there was a case where I lived of a young teen girl giving birth in a rest area bathroom and leaving the baby. The trauma to her (she was terrified by the whole ordeal) and her family was everlasting.

[Hekate]

85. I'll tell you the thing that scared me most about the prospect of getting pregnant in high school--

… was knowing I’d have to give up my first-born child. Well, that and the wreck of my reputation — stigma really meant something in the early 1960s. Boys I knew — boys I liked — snickered about the girl who was seen, very pregnant, in her family’s yard over the summer. I snapped at them that she hadn’t done it by herself, but still it hurt to hear it.

In our little town, I know there were condoms at the pharmacy, but that was all there was for horny teenagers. And it was a little town, where people shared information.

A young woman came to stay with the family across the street after she got pregnant. Boyfriend was a Marine, and he dropped her like a hot potato, so she went to see his Commanding Officer. He says to her, “Lady, I hate to tell you, but you are Number 5 with the same story about him.”

So she decides, given her options, to keep the baby, move back to her home state, and tell her parents she’s a widow. Big surprise when she gets the birth certificate (which she’ll have to produce for kindergarten, etc) that in my state in those days they stamp the goddam thing ILLEGITIMATE.

I was about 12 at the time and got the whole story from my mother. The injustice of it all was just tearing her up — it tore me up, too.

[moniss]

94. When

I was a kid in the late '50's/early '60's there were several kids in school who had unmarried parents. Once that information would get out the other kids were merciless in their teasing/bullying and shunning. The school never did anything which was typical. The mothers would typically get hounded by the men because she was supposedly "that kind of a woman". I remember a girl in my school who was a really nice person but in middle school one of the boys who dated her went around telling everybody she was "easy". The gossip/ridicule was non-stop and within a few months she was in counseling just to try to deal with the situation. The damage to her was done and anytime after that she tried to be involved in extra-curricular activities she was shunned and mocked.

[calimary]

111. The closest I got to that was something I discovered after graduating from 8th grade.

I was 14. One of my best friends and I decided to visit our old school, from which I conveniently lived just up the street. We found our way in, one Saturday, and went exploring from the lower floor where the kitchen and nuns' private dining room and special snack bar area to the lower-grade floor and finally to the upper-grade floor where the school library and office were located. My friend went snooping around elsewhere in the office while I couldn't resist the file cabinet in another part of it. Leafing through it I discovered they hadn't yet cleaned out our 8th grade class file, so I went a'looking. And I got to my file and was startled to see this BIG RED "ADOPTED" typed in right up in the first line, by my name. BIG AND RED, back in the day when typewriters had ribbons that were black-and-red so you could type in either color. "ADOPTED". It was literally a "scarlet letter."

I was shocked and and disturbed and indignant and thoroughly pissed off. The retort that went through my mind was "Oh YEAH??? SO WHAT???? WHAT'S IT TO YA???"

And then I got curious. "Hmmm - I wonder who else is adopted?" So I wound up leafing through the files of every grade. Turns out, in that K-8 school, there were four of us with that red-letter classification. I felt an immediate kinship with the other three, even not knowing them personally because the oldest of them was several grades below mine.

That was decades ago, and I still get mad, thinking about it. We were branded in big red letters, all four of us in that student body. Like it was something alarming or shameful or embarrassing, something that people needed to be alerted or warned about, or a big red mark against us, signifying our being sequestered among the "less-than's".

And SO-the-fucking-hell-WHAT???



I never made an issue of it. Being adopted is something I've never hidden. I was adopted when just a few days old, and my parents never hid it from me. And they'd reminisce about it with me when I was little, always ending with some celebratory version of "...and we picked YOU!!!!!" For quite awhile during my way-younger years, that's where I thought babies came from. You simply went to the baby store and picked one out.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

21. What type of life?

[FakeNoose]

9. There are still sensible Repukes in the country, they're not gonna let these idiots take over

Let's just take a minute here, and breathe. I was raised Catholic and I can tell you that even the majority of Catholics in this country favor birth control. Yes there are SOME nutty Catholics who are anti-choice when it comes to abortion, it's true. But birth control is something that almost all of us use at one time or another. And there are very good reasons for it too. Like for example, people who are successful in using birth control will (probably) never need an abortion.

[MineralMan]

11. Bull! Trump.

[Irish_Dem]

16. The GOP doesn't care what the people want.

The GOP imposes unpopular laws all the time.

They control the votes, they control the agenda.

[AngryOldDem]

89. THIS, 1,000x THIS.

I just saw GOP committee chairman yesterday trash a state constitutional provision. When a Democratic committee member tried to raise the point, the committee chair said, in essense, the committee can do whatever it wants. No. It can’t. It shouldn’t.

I’ve seen enough shit go down that I am totally cynical about the motives of lawmakers and the future of government at any level as long as the GOP is a supermajority.

[Irish_Dem]

90. Yes the GOP agenda is more like Russia and China.

Absolute permanent power and control. Access to all US wealth.
Draconian social control over women and minorities.
Minority rule by white supremacists.
Wealthy not taxed.

[AngryOldDem]

91. People need to start waking up to this.

Honest to God, 1,000 people can show up to testify against a bill, and that will mean not one whit to those who vote it into law.

That is NOT a democratic process.

[Irish_Dem]

92. The US is moving towards autocratic, white minority rule.

As the GOP takes over the voting process, we won't have a democracy any longer.

[pnwmom]

22. It doesn't matter how many normal people there are. The Supreme Court is 6-3,

and despite the large majority of non-nutty citizens, we could easily end up with a Republican House and Senate that could eliminate the filibuster and do almost anything the most extreme group wants.

[hatrack]

42. The idiots took over a good 20 years ago, and locked it in place about 10 years back . . .

"Sensible" Republicans. Spare me.

[niyad]

77. You forget that these woman-hating gestational slavers are after birth control

as well.

[Hekate]

80. They just can't let it sink in, can they?

[niyad]

83. Sadly, it appears that they cannot.

There was an art exhibit many years ago (SF, I think). The artist had decorated blown-up condoms. The exhibit was picketed and protested by reichwing nutters calling her a murderer.

[calimary]

97. Yep. There definitely is that.

They see us women as good for only one thing: targets for domination.

[Hekate]

86. It may surprise you to learn that abortion is quite common, as in 25% of women have had...

Last edited Tue Feb 22, 2022, 05:08 PM - Edit history (1)

… at least one. Most of them are moms, who have at least one child.

Things happen. In my own life I have planned and been careful — but by now, I realize I have also been lucky. Nobody ever date-raped me (I knew a young woman who got pregnant that way. She travelled to another state to get an abortion because it was unavailable where she was). None of my birth control methods failed me — for one thing, the dose for The Pill was higher in those days, and now every little thing can apparently throw it off (I know another young woman who faithfully took her oral contraceptive, but went on antibiotics, and whoops. She miscarried). I could go on. A woman has a lot of conversations with other women by her 70s. They weren’t being careless — their luck just went bad at the wrong time.

[ShazzieB]

114. Antibiotics messing with birth control pills has been a thing for a long time.

I knew a woman who got pregnant that way back in 1986. Was taking her pills faithfully, had an antibiotic prescribed for a uti, and *boom* instant unplanned pregnancy. She was married, already had a couple of kids, didn't plan on any more, had absolutely NO idea that an antibiotic could cancel out the contraceptive effects of her birth control pills.

What kills me is that it would have been so easy to prevent, but NOBODY told her she needed to use another form of birth control while she was on the antibiotics. I don't know if the same doctor prescribed both drugs, but back then they weren't as thorough about going through all the drugs someone was already taking before prescribing another one. So it could have been a different doctor prescribing the antibiotic who didn't know (and didn't bother to find out--or just didn't care!) that she was on the pill and relying on it to keep from getting pregnant.

I don't know how the pills back then compared with what's being prescribed now, but I'd be surprised if the doses were as low 37 years as they are in 2022.

She went ahead and had the baby. Ended up with an extra kid she hadn't planned on, but at least it wasn't as much of disaster in her case as it would be for some people. Still makes me mad, though. It's like part of her agency was taken away from her due to the negligence and/or apathy of health care professionals who she was counting to provide appropriate care. Grrr.

[Hekate]

116. I can't believe how long ago... my daughter is 46. Anyway, I got engaged & got the Pill 50 years ago?

It was the new, lower dose. Lower, that is, compared to the original one, which was known to cause more adverse side effects. I was instructed to take it “about the same time every day,” so I was pretty casual about timing. No one said a word about antibiotics, and I was fine.

Two things, though. One, I had a near constant case of yeast infection. Two, when I stopped taking it in order to get pregnant, I still didn’t ovulate for a year — I kept hopeful charts, so when I really looked at them a couple of years after my daughter was born, I realized that’s what the hold-up had been.

When my daughter tried the Pill in her turn the formula/dosage had really gotten lower. She had stern instructions to take it at the exact same time every day, and double up on contraceptives if she had to take an antibiotic.

As for gynecologists — a good friend moved to New Jersey for 3 years — she’s in her late 60s now, so that was awhile ago. Said the clinic was like stepping back into the 1950s, and not in a good way. She had a professional career, which she hoped to resume some day, and the docs there kept saying she was “so different from all the other women.” She and her husband had all they could handle with their 2 children since the little boy was severely ADHD and needed attention every moment. Her new doc swore up and down that the sponge was totally reliable, so she went ahead — and got pregnant. Went back to the clinic in a state, and was told by another doc that “those things are notorious for failing.” Announced she wanted an abortion (which had been legal for years) and then the Big Stall began. The people in that clinic stalled her right up until her first trimester was almost completely over and — I think in the end she yelled at everyone. She’s close to 6 feet tall, so that’s impressive. Insisted her husband be there to hold her hand during the procedure, which they did not like either. It was a freaking nightmare.

[LoisB]

12. Are we officially a Shit-hole country yet?

nt

[smirkymonkey]

14. I think that horse has left the barn.

It's just becoming an even BIGGER shithole.

[LoisB]

18. Sadly, I must agree. Oh, what we could have been.

nt

[Irish_Dem]

15. We achieved that goal some time ago. :(

[pnwmom]

17. You're absolutely right, Hekate. This is a huge threat. People have taken effective contraception

for so long they can't imagine this is a serious threat, but it is.

[DET]

20. Horrifying

I was shocked as well by the thread re the three crazy AGs and the subsequent discussion. I had no idea that the right wingers ultimate goal is to eliminate contraception. I really don’t get how this works in their favor. Don’t Republican women use contraceptives? Do Republican men really want a house full of kids? You know they don’t want more people of color having babies. Other than some bizarre patriarchical domination thing, why would they want to abolish contraceptives?

[Nay]

87. It's the "bizarre patriarchial domination thing." And wealthy Republicans will be

able to procure birth control just as they will be able to access abortion services. Plus, any woman married to a Republican man can be jerked around with the threat of "no BC for you, I want another kid." Everyone forgets that in the bad old days when BC was rolled out, you couldn't be a single woman and get it. You ALSO couldn't get it if you were a married woman unless you had your husband's permission!

There are a lot of misogynistic men who are OK with lots of kids if it means they can stick it to women in general, and their own woman in particular. It's a domination thing.

I'm glad I'm old.

And yes, in answer to another question earlier in the thread, this is definitely a SHIT-HOLE country.

[woodsprite]

100. Keeps the wife busy and out of the way when the men play with their female (or male) mistresses. nt

[Joinfortmill]

23. Women, and the men who love them, will not stand for this. We will never go back. Never.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

37. A lot of people say that about abortion, and here we are.

[bluboid]

24. Thank you for explaining the legal connection...

between contraception rights & abortion rights!!!!!!! it is indeed scary & sickening - a major organizing point for everyone to get active thru whatever means presents itself.

[moniss]

26. The vast

majority of people alive in the US today have no memory of how it really was in the '50's/'60's. They romanticize the period because of what they see on TV and in movies. But I lived it. For those who don't know or remember let me clue you in.

No-fault divorce didn't exist and so women would be trapped in abusive marriages. There was at that time little support for a woman and her children if she simply left. Police routinely looked the other way when the husbands went "hunting" to see where their wife had gone. TV and movies routinely portrayed "argumentative" women being slapped by men as just an acceptable and expected result of arguments. I can remember where I grew up that it was not uncommon to see a woman now and then with severe bruising and black eyes. The authorities, clergy and neighbors would usually try to convince the woman to go back home and "work it out". I mention this because it was as common as the daily paper all across America. Also a woman was not supposed to "refuse" sex with her husband and so marital rape was as common as coffee in the morning.

For so many women the ability to prevent forced pregnancy by having contraception was something that was out of reach in most states. Couples with good relationships suffered also so I don't mean to imply that all were bad. But the paternalistic power structure was in tight control and most of these abusive husbands would get little more than a lecture from authorities. If that. The prevailing attitude was that if the woman got beat up she had been "asking for it".

I saw mothers, who already had 4 children as an example, scraping by in near poverty and trying to struggle through another pregnancy despite being in poor physical condition. The woman I most remember was a tall woman but very gaunt and her husband had been so abusive that she would routinely come to get groceries with bruises on her arms and wearing sunglasses in the store so nobody could see her blackened eyes. The abuse and intimidation had made her extremely nervous and jumpy and I remember her crying in the store. She miscarried the baby and should have been in the hospital but her husband wouldn't let her go. She was sick at home for a long time. Nobody saw her for a long time. I was grown about that time and moved away. Remembering her now for the first time since then made me start to tear up.

These men who are in control lost a bit of their grip on women after Griswold, no-fault divorce and improvements to AFDC benefits. An awful lot of men (not all of course) were very unhappy about losing their ready made cook, housekeeper, laundress and sex object that they were able to get simply by getting a marriage license and a ceremony. The resentment resulted in phrases about a woman "not knowing that her place was in the home, kitchen, bedroom etc." and you hear it translated by these conservative ghouls today as "traditional family values" and other such crap.

[moose65]

63. Fantastic comment

Would you consider expanding this into a post of its own? 😃

[moniss]

84. You

are most kind and I do appreciate the comment. Perhaps it could happen.

[niyad]

99. As another poster asked, could you please make this an OP of its own for

wider visibility, and so we can rec it? I will additionally ask if you would cross-post this in Women's Rights And Issues. Thanks in advance.

[TygrBright]

30. I wish I had more immediate comfort to offer you...

...but the truth is, right now we are in a dangerous place and regress is more likely than progress (or even holding the line) in the short term.

That will cost many lives and much, much pain. For many people. For years.

In the long run, it will right itself. The attempt to reverse demographics with forced birth will backfire. Progress will be made again, and all the greater for this pain.

But... possibly not in our lifetimes.

Hold to this: My grandson WILL work for justice, equality, and the end of patriarchy. He was raised right. I know a good many more youngsters like him. And there are more of them, now, than there were youngsters looking for this kind of progress in our generation, at least until the existential threat of dying in Vietnam forced some uneasy young white men into an uncomfortable alliance.

The good changes will return.

And this, too, shall pass.

If we all work at it. And work at it. And work at it. And

DO

NOT

GIVE

UP.

Stay strong, Hekate.

consolingly,
Bright

[Hekate]

44. Oh, Bright.

I am having such a bad day.
Thank you for your kind words.

[Hortensis]

31. Not just not surprising, my only question was when will this big drop?

Six extremely, even extremist conservative justices with religious orientations and most claiming strict constructionist and/or textualist interpretations of the constitution. tRump, the Republican Party and RW plutocrats all extremely dependent on the religious right for power.

And Griswold based on nothing explicitly stated in the constitution, just a liberal interpretation of what liberals felt should be there. But heck, in the middle of the 20th century CT was going to arrest people, even married couples, for possessing and using contraception. They had to do something.

Btw, our rights to a free and open internet are based on the same foundation as Griswold.

This is only terrifying if we don't have the power to vote to change it. THAT's terrifying. We could handle a few years of people having children they hadn't chosen to have while we fixed it, if it came to that. Not being able to fix it, grim.

THE 2022 MIDTERMS ARE ON. People need to vote Democratic like the lives they thought they'd have depended on it. And access to forums like DU, btw.

[Biophilic]

34. Yes, this is sooo friggin' depressing. I thought we'd been there, done that. Made progress.

It seems like they will persist forever. Not the country i thought I grew up in, not the country I worked 55 years in. Not the country I so wanted to leave the next generation. Damn them, just damn them.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

40. Texas Abortion Ban Architect Now Looking To Recriminalize Gay Sex And Overturn Gay Marriage

This is the asshole who drafted the Texas abortion law. This asshole wants to strike down the implied right of privacy by getting Roe overruled which would/could lead to striking down the right to same sex marriage and other rights

Link to tweet

https://www.comicsands.com/jonathan-mitchell-overturn-gay-marriage-2655065691.html

Though Mitchell's brief, also signed by his co-counsel Adam Mortara, dedicates much of its time to the Texas abortion law's defense, it also questions "lawless" pieces of legislation, namely the Lawrence v. Texas ruling, which decriminalized gay sex nationwide, and the Obergefell v. Hodges ruling, which legalized same-sex marriage.

Though the brief does not say reversing Roe v. Wade would threaten the same-sex marriage ruling, it does say that

""the news is not as good for those who hope to preserve the court-invented rights to homosexual behavior and same-sex marriage …
"These 'rights,' like the right to abortion from Roe, are judicial concoctions, and there is no other source of law that can be invoked to salvage their existence."

It goes on to add that while the Supreme Court should not necessarily overturn Lawrence and Obergefell, it should consider these two rulings as "lawless" as Roe v. Wade and, by extension, Planned Parenthood v. Casey.

"This is not to say that the Court should announce the overruling of Lawrence and Obergefell if it decides to overrule Roe and Casey in this case."
"But neither should the Court hesitate to write an opinion that leaves those decisions hanging by a thread. Lawrence and Obergefell, while far less hazardous to human life, are as lawless as Roe."

The brief drew the attention of Melissa Murray, who teaches at New York University's School of Law.

Link to tweet

[Hekate]

43. Oh. My. God. "Lawless." Sure, of course, evil never sleeps.

I think my heart may break.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

46. Griswold not only legalize contraception but is the basis for some key rights

If the SCOTUS strike down Roe, they can also go after same sex marriage, contraception and bans on gay sex

[Hekate]

47. It's why it's hitting me so hard.

I tried to explain it in my OP, but it bears repeating. With this SCOTUS…

[mahina]

48. You are such a good heart sister.

Thank you. You put my feelings in black and white.

[Hekate]

109. Doing better today -- I found my grounding and my anger

Mahalo.

[CousinIT]

49. People who voted for an American Taliban (not DUers but GOPers)

...are gonna get an American Taliban.

Women need to stop marrying and deny men sex in droves until they stop this shit.

[Hekate]

51. There is no Lysistrata in real life. Truly. nt

[barbtries]

64. i felt a deep sense of dread

bordering on hopelessness this morning when i read about it. it's all the same to me at the end of the day: they hate women, they don't believe that women are fully human, they are afraid of women and jealous of their power, they don't care.

they don't fucking care who suffers as long as it isn't them.

fuck the patriarchy. I could call my friend who is a huge abortion rights advocate, but she also refused to even contemplate the end of Roe when I said, "Say good-bye to it" after the fucking beer-loving alcoholic was put on the SC. kavanaugh. just remembered his name.

for years i've been saying that republicans are trying to force us back into the stone age. i think i'm right. will they succeed? I'm saying NO, but it's distressing that I even have to entertain the fear of it, reasonably. I'm 66 years old and it is a chilling thought that my granddaughter(s?) will have to maneuver a world where they have no rights to their OWN BODIES!

I hope I've raised my sons to advocate for the girls and women they love in their lives. Because we are going to need a lot of men to be feminists to overcome this backslide into the stone age. Men who know that women are people, men who recognize the worth and the rights and the autonomy of females.

sorry to run on. just wanted to let you know you are not alone.

[hamsterjill]

101. And you are not alone, either.

Great post. I agree with all that you wrote. I'm 63 and in a weird sense, I'm glad that I am on this side of the age measurement than on the other.

I would only add that I have lived in Texas my whole life and I have been SCREAMING at the top of my lungs for a very long time that what the Republicans pull in Texas is a testing ground for what they will try to do nationwide. Every win that they get emboldens them to try for more.

People better wise the fuck up! I see some savvy young women these days, but I also see plenty of young women who seem perfectly content to just let this happen. Our generation fought for this and it is sickening to see it allowed to die away.

I see so many young women today who are having three, four, sometimes five kids and think that's just great. They're happy to stay at home and let the man earn the living and have the control. Many of these young women have no education beyond high school, and a great deal of these were home schooled in a very religious environment. It makes my skin crawl. Do they have a right to do it? Absolutely. But the real question is whether or not it's a good idea to do it. And it's not. It is always advisable to be independent and an equal partner in any relationship.

My daughter is in her late thirties and she and her husband have decided not to have children. I am perfectly fine with that decision. She was raised to believe that she has a choice, and her husband supports that.

[3catwoman3]

74. It makes no sense, to me, for men to be opposed to contraception.

I have never personally known any man who wanted to have child after child after child.

Nor have I EVER known any who favored abstinence.

[Hekate]

81. For 50 years they've known that women actually do have control of the process...

So it has been safe for them to assume that this is strictly a woman’s problem and strictly a woman’s responsibility.

But to a certain extent, it always was. If the diaphragm failed or the sponge turned out to be unreliable, the man felt “tricked” because it wasn’t his fault. If she got pregnant, there had to be a hurry-up wedding if he had any honor at all. If they were already married, he got to complain about the surprise pregnancy.

So if the American Taliban have their way and we go back to the bad old days, the gentlemen are in for a surprise.

[AncientOfDays]

75. I wonder ...

... if the Right to Abortion couldn't be tied to the 14th Amendment - outlawing slavery - that being forced to carry a fetus to term would be slavery.

[Stinky The Clown]

76. Right there with ya! Rant on. (Best to your friend, by the way)

Soon enough the future will be now.

[Hekate]

105. Thank you for the kind words about my friend

It was supposedly “only” a TIA, but it’s affected her speech, and since I’m no longer in town, I have to make a plan for a day-trip. Soon.

[niyad]

78. Right there with you, my sister.

[wryter2000]

93. I can't think of a better way to get young women to vote

I lived before contraceptives were easily available. So, it was either abstain from sex completely or worry constantly that you might be pregnant. And, of course, abortion was out of the question.

[Orrex]

95. Rest assured that wealthy KKKonservatives will always have access to abortion

Can't have their pre-teen mistresses walking around pregnant, after all.

[RANDYWILDMAN]

102. They cheated to win, TWICE FFS

Quit blaming us.

2000 scotus installs it's prefered choice

2016 Russia interferes and we don't even know how much they did, do to their preferred candidate winning and Mitch pulling the inside strings twice (what an a-hole)

[Hekate]

108. Stay on topic, please

[Hekate]

107. Dunno if I made the ECONOMICS explicit enough. But women are a threat to SOME men...

Last edited Tue Feb 22, 2022, 08:23 PM - Edit history (1)

Ruth Bader Ginsberg went to Law school in an era where deans used to invite the young men students over for “tea” or dinner, as a way of socializing them, introducing them around, and so forth. Any woman who managed to make it past the huge barriers to be there in the first place would be asked, upon introduction to the group, to please explain why she felt justified in taking the place that belonged to a man..

As women gained personal control over their fertility and could choose when or if to have a child, they were increasingly able to move into education and job categories that men believed belonged to men.

And a great many men have resented it like hell. From pathetic incels to the dean of a prestigious law school, that resentment has not gone away.

It affects the military, the civilian police and firefighters, all manner of well-paid blue collar skilled crafts. These are men’s jobs; what makes a woman think she belongs here? Harassment remains, both subtle and blatant.

It affects choices for the SCOTUS right now. It’s the misogyny in the Senate. As Shirley Chisholm said, she suffered worse from misogyny than from racism.

And if all else fails, there is always rape. Because rape is not about sex — it is about control and domination. And what does rape do? It deposits the seed of the dominator into the body of the conquered. That is why it is and always has been a tool of war.

I’m better today. I’ve regained my footing, and I am angry.

Started a new OP with this

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216384017