Kurt Eichenwald -Don't forget: AFTER he lost election-Trump withdrew from the Open Skies Treaty...

[kpete]

Don't forget: AFTER he lost election, Trump unilaterally withdrew from the Open Skies Treaty, giving Putin cover to withdraw too. Ukraine begged us not to, because it would rob the west of the best surveillance should Putin invade. Now we don’t have it. Another gift from Trump.

— Kurt Eichenwald (@kurteichenwald) February 23, 2022

Link to tweet

?s=20&t=xmNOODuJuRPpz3v6KDJ93A
https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2020-12/news/us-completes-open-skies-treaty-withdrawal

[PatSeg]

1. Damn!

[UTUSN]

2. K&R

[former9thward]

3. This tweet, like most on twitter, is simply not true.

1) The U.S. withdrew from the treaty because of Russian violations. Russia would not allow the U.S. and Canada to overfly various regions in violation of the treaty.

2) The Biden administration told Russia in May, 2021 the U.S. would not reenter the treaty because of the violations.

3) In June, 2021 Russia formally withdrew

4) Most of this is largely irrelevant anyway because of the improvements in satellite technology which did not exist when the treaty was negotiated. We no longer need over flights to know what is going on. Where do people think the U.S. got all its info about the impending Ukraine invasion which was released to the world?

[gristy]

4. Yep. Here's the timeline from Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_Open_Skies#Challenges_to_the_treaty

Challenges to the treaty
Both Russia and the United States have alleged that the other is violating the provisions of the treaty.[23] U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo cited for example Russia's access refusal in the Russian-controlled areas of Georgia.[24] On 20 September 2019, the U.S. and Canada were denied access to a military exercise in central Russia.[25]

American withdrawal
In October 2019, it was reported that according to documents from the U.S. House of Representatives, President Donald Trump was considering withdrawing from the Open Skies Treaty.[26][27] NATO allies and partners, in particular Ukraine, were against the move, fearing it would license Russia to reduce further or ban overflights, thus reducing their knowledge of Russian military movements.[28]

In April 2020, it was reported that Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and Secretary of Defense Mark Esper had agreed to proceed with U.S. withdrawal from the Treaty on Open Skies.[29] On May 21, 2020, President Trump announced that the United States would be withdrawing from the treaty due to alleged Russian violations.[30]

On 22 May 2020, the United States submitted notice of withdrawal from the Treaty on Open Skies.[31][32] Senate Democrats questioned the legality, wisdom, and appropriateness of the planned withdrawal so close to the 2020 United States presidential election.[33][34] The U.S. said it would share some of its intelligence and reconnaissance information with European allies to make up for any loss of critical information from the end of the Treaty.[35]

On 22 November 2020, United States official sources—including U.S. Department of State websites, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, and the National Security Council's official Twitter account—announced that the six-month period was over and the U.S. was no longer a party to the Treaty.[36][37][38]

Russian withdrawal
In January 2021, Russia announced that it will follow the United States in withdrawing from the Treaty on Open Skies.[39] The Biden administration informed Moscow in May 2021 that it would not re-enter the pact; on 7 June 2021 Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a law on that formalised Russia's exit from the Treaty on Open Skies.[40]

[W_HAMILTON]

6. So, we unilaterally withdrew on November 22, 2020.

Just as the tweet said.

[former9thward]

8. And we could have gotten back in on Jan 20, 2021.

The Biden administration reviewed the facts and said we would not. A wise decision given all the Russian violations.

[AZLD4Candidate]

9. Talk about writing GOP talking points to slam Biden

[Skittles]

42. SOP

yup

[W_HAMILTON]

13. Yeah, including a review that showed Russia had already withdrawn from it.

Why would we unilaterally reenter it in that case?

[former9thward]

14. Russia withdrew formally a month later after receiving the Biden decision.

Why are people covering for Russian violations?

[W_HAMILTON]

19. "In January 2021, Russia announced that it will follow the United States in withdrawing."

Russia announced its intentions months before Biden announced his decision.

The better question is why are you defending Trump and Putin here while blaming Biden for their decisions?

[former9thward]

23. Blaming Biden?

I am the one who said he made a good decision not to reenter. It is you saying it was bad. The real question is why are the Russian violations being ignored or covered up???

[W_HAMILTON]

29. Yes, you are blaming Biden for the actions of Trump and Putin.

You were the one that claimed, falsely, that the original tweet was "not true."

And then you claimed we could have gotten back into the treaty under Biden, even though Russia had already announced that it was withdrawing as well, using Trump's withdrawal as justification -- as the tweet, which you said was "not true," correctly claimed.

If Russia was violating the terms of the agreement, Trump should have punished them for doing so. He didn't. He withdrew, making it look like we were the irresponsible ones, which gave Russia cover to also announce its withdrawal. These decisions had absolutely nothing to do with Biden, even though you claimed otherwise when you said that Biden could have UNILATERALLY chosen to get back into the agreement when he took office, even though Russia had already announced its withdrawal.

Just stop.

[former9thward]

31. "If Russia was violating the terms of the agreement"

You are still not even willing to admit they WERE vioolating the agreement. Why???

[W_HAMILTON]

5. It is true.

Your additional information does not change the fact that the substance of the tweet was true.

[former9thward]

7. To leave out relevant information which changes the context is a lie.

[W_HAMILTON]

10. Your additional information didn't change the context of his claim...

...and it CERTAINLY didn't change it enough to say what he said "is simply not true."

[hadEnuf]

11. Yes but Trump originally pulled out of the treaty, correct?

[former9thward]

15. Because of Russian violations.

Why are people not mentioning that?

[hadEnuf]

41. Putin helped put Trump in the White House and Trump praises the bastard constantly.

Trump excuse of punishing Russia over "violations" doesn't hold water.

[former9thward]

44. You put "violations" in quotes.

As if they didn't really violate the treaty. Interesting. You do know that Canada also called Russia on these same violations. Did they put Trudeau in power too?

[hadEnuf]

45. I never said they didn't violate the treaty.

I said Trump used the violations to withdraw the US from the treaty, a move that was ultimately to Putin's advantage. And Canada didn't withdraw from the treaty.

Trump was much more concerned about helping his benefactor then feigning outrage over violations. That's pretty apparent to most.

[FBaggins]

36. No. It isn't.

The "substance" of the tweet is that we would be in a better position to oppose Russia's moves re: Ukraine if only Trump hadn't backed out of the Open Skies treaty.

That simply isn't true.

To believe otherwise requires three ridiculous assumptions:

1 - That the US would have stayed in the treaty under Biden despite Russia violating it
2 - That Russia wouldn't have backed out anyway
3 - That, upon deciding to invade Ukraine... Russia would wake up each morning and say "Oh darn... we have to let those spy flights continue over out military bases because we're still in that blasted treaty! Yeah... we're ignoring the Budapest agreement, but we'll stick to this meddlesome 'open skies' thingy because the paperwork is just so onerous!"

[ismnotwasm]

17. Thank you

[patphil]

12. The satellite pictures we've been seeing on the news are probably just as good, and..

that's just the stuff made public.
I don't think we are missing anything by not being in the Open Skies Treaty. It's been replaced by hi-quality satellite imagery.

[ffr]

16. Fucking traitorous Trump. I have nothing but scorn for Russian sympathizers

The GOP can go to Hell, along with the Russian troll farms!

[2naSalit]

18. K&R!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ancianita]

20. So reinstate it, already. If Trump can withdraw, Biden can rejoin.

[W_HAMILTON]

22. Except Russia already withdrew...

...citing America's decision to withdraw, made under Trump, as its justification -- just as the tweet claimed.

Unilaterally rejoining it does us no good.

[ancianita]

28. But it proved the autocratic alignment of trumputin and not one bit of international legitimacy.

Last edited Thu Feb 24, 2022, 04:03 PM - Edit history (1)

We are what we do now. We are not constrained by what Trump did for his master back them.

Come ON, now.

[W_HAMILTON]

30. Your words make no sense.

If you are saying that we should have unilaterally restricted ourselves by an agreement that Russia had already announced it was withdrawing from, uhh, no, that's not how bilateral agreements work.

[ancianita]

32. I see. Okay. I didn't look it up, just assumed it was a multi- and not just bilateral. My bad.

[Kid Berwyn]

21. Hard to prove treason bah.

Traitor Trump.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

24. TFG was doing the bidding of his master

Putin gave TFG one last order before TFG had to leave office

[TomWilm]

25. The Dual Purpose Of The Open Skies Treaty WAS ...

• By opening airspace for observation flights among its member countries, the Open Skies Treaty provides transparency and is designed to build confidence between countries about military activity.
• The treaty has been in force for over 17 years, and has resulted in over 1500 flights.
• Participating countries include 31 NATO and former Warsaw pact countries.
• Open Skies images are shared with all the members of the treaty, including the observed country.
• Open Skies images have a unique level of provenance, because all parties recognise they are authentic.
http://www.vertic.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/FS14_Open_Skies.pdf

[dchill]

26. Smart savvy genius.

[sarisataka]

27. Don't forget

There were a lot of hair-on-fire posts about Trump letting his buddy Putin fly a plane around the US when the treaty was in effect

[TomWilm]

43. ... since nobody remembered the decades of these visits before TFG.

[NQAS]

33. Makes you wonder. . .

Many here (including myself), have speculated that TFG was an actual Russian asset. And as we hear what the fuck has had to say about Putin's invasion, and as we read about what TFG did while in office, I have to wonder whether that was the only reason he ran for office and, once in office, that his objective was to pave the way for what is happening now.

IOW, this has been a plan long in the making. Putin has the goods on trump, and the vile one did Putin's bidding at every step along the way, in office and now out. Trump tower moscow was a fiction, a cover at varying steps along the way. But it was never going to happen because, as noted, Putin has the leverage he needs over trump. And trump delivered. And, when you think about it, he doesn't have to say anything about the invasion. But he continues to sing his paymaster's praises. True, TFG can't keep his mouth shut, but, even so, praising a dictator's invasion of a sovereign nation really is a step too far. And, yet, there he is. Makes no sense, unless those are his orders.

At this point I would put money on the likelihood that this is known where it needs to be known in the government.

[lagomorph777]

37. That's not really speculation.

Trump's open behavior makes it very plain that he is a Russian asset. Though anybody who hires Trump would have to use the word "asset" in a pretty generous sense. He does everything he is capable of to help Putin, but Trump is not a very capable man.

[leanforward]

40. Add me to the List

Two, where did he get the cash to build a golf course in Scotland. Cyprus?

[SleeplessinSoCal]

34. Forget Open Skies. Enter Ukraine into NATO now...

...before there is no more Ukraine

[lagomorph777]

38. I agree. Show Putin what a gigantic mistake he has made.

Then start dropping the bombs on his troops.

[Javaman]

35. this was part of the meetings the orange asshole had with those fucks.

no record made of it.

only the ruskies were allowed in the room.

[leanforward]

39. Thank you for the information

He is complacent in this invasion. "Open Skies withdrawal". Even then, I could still imagine our airman being shot down.

I'll go back to my spelling of President to pRezident.