Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
2 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The Auschwitz Memorial statement on the situation in Ukraine. (Original Post) Nevilledog Feb 2022 OP
K&R PatSeg Feb 2022 #1
I don't disagree with one word of that...I just KNOW the world does NOT care the same way. Moostache Feb 2022 #2

Moostache

(9,895 posts)
2. I don't disagree with one word of that...I just KNOW the world does NOT care the same way.
Thu Feb 24, 2022, 02:55 PM
Feb 2022

What are people willing to do beyond say how outrageous this is?
Putin and Trump and all madmen authoritarians operate on the same set of assumptions:


1) I am the only one that truly matters, fuck everyone else.
2) No one is REALLY willing to go further than I am to stop me.
3) Therefore, I can do whatever the fuck I want and get away with it.
4) Before, during and after I do something, the gaslighting begins, maintains and stretches on.
5) Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Just keep using MORE each time to change the subject / argument.


Whether it is blatantly breaking banking laws, invading neighboring states, or supressing dissent - you won't find anything between Putin and Trump philosophically and now tactically, either.

What is the world's response going to be? Seriously.
War? Until when? Until Putin shuts of natural gas and oil to Europe in winter? Until Putin threatens to use nukes for "defense"? Until he actually DOES use nukes?

How far are people willing to go?
Many people in hindsight savage Chambelain and the 1930's run up to WWII...but prior to the war actually starting in earnest, how many were really willing to go to war even then? Not nearly as many as is claimed in the light of historical knowledge.

The same is true today. Statements and stern warnings. But in reality, nothing is going to happen because Putin has an insane number of nukes and only has to keep rattling the chain to scare off real consequences. Short of a Russian Revolution to unseat him and seize power in Russia, this is going to go on for a long time.

"Never again" has become a hollow slogan. What is really means to most is "never to me/us", but when it (genocide or even just unjust warfare and invasion) DOES actually happen elsewhere, far away - whether today in Ukraine, or in the 90's in Rawanda, or in the killing fields of Cambodia...what will REALLY happen to stop it? Pretty goddamn close to nothing on the ground, unless it seems likely to spill out of one region and go global or into a country nearby.

Profits rule all in our globalist, gangster capitalist system today. Maximized profits, minimized expenses. War is a BIG expense. Letting a few thousand unknown Ukrainians (or anyone else for that matter) die is far cheaper and thus far more likely to be countenanced while speaking out of the other side of the mouth about sanctions and "being tough". Georgia? Crimea? Ukraine? Anyone know what is next on THAT wishlist? Latvians sleeping soundly? How about Lithuanians? Estonians? You're all next... Taiwan? South China Sea?

Trump showed the world that 'norms' and 'expectations' are a farce if you're willing to never accept facts and always willing to lie. He introduced "alternative facts" and "fake news" as legitimate terms and ideas, even though neither is in any way legitimate. The genie is out of the bottle and I do not see anything close to the resolve needed to put it back in. Too many people afraid of offending someone's sensibilities, too many willing to draw a moveable line in the sand and walk back until swimming instead of fighting for a principle. If we are unwilling to meet the death tolls an autocrat will gladly suffer, then we should simply stay out of the way. There is no such thing in today's world as half-way war. And this world is not going to do the things necessary to stop someone like Putin - or Trump (or one of his admirers in the GOP like Desantis) should he ever again become President.

In 2016 I told anyone in my circle of influence that there was only ONE candidate on the ballot that was an existential risk to the republic - Donald Trump. Until the day after the election I was laughed at and called an alarmist. If anything, I was like a climate scientist in my underestimation of the impact of Trump's win that dark dark day. It is a turning point in world history and human history. There are clear things that MUST happen, and many of them are terribly unpleasant to think about and will be worse to experience, but that does not mean they can be ignored further.

Naked agression across the world is likely to continue acceleration now. Regional conflicts are going to expand and engulf huge populations into brutal confrontations and military conflicts. In the end, there are two outcomes - 1) humanity eats itself through a love of power and greed for temporal things at the expesne of a future or 2) enough people of vision unite to eliminate the threat of people who will take advantage of freedom to foment lies and seek power for power's sake. In case 1) billions will die, society will fall and extinction by our own hands, suicide on a species level. In case 2) billions still die, but a new world and society emerge and learn to return to a sustainable living on the planet and in harmony with nature and reality.

I have very little faith in 2) becoming reality, although it should be the aim of every life on Earth to fight for an outcome that sustains ourselves for a future. To too many, life is not a zero sum game, its a game of attrition and winning does not just mean you lose, it means I get to spike the ball in your face, denigrate your efforts and intentions and mock your ancestors while agrandizing myself. Its a dark day for humanity indeed, but what's left to come will make it seem like getting back here would be high noon sunshine by comparison.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»The Auschwitz Memorial st...