Something to consider regarding our response to russia.

[The Jungle 1]

Ukraine is not a NATO member. They were offered NATO membership and turned it down.
If you want the largest and most advanced army in the world to help defend you then you need to join the club and pay your DUES. Sending troops into Ukraine would be a very bad signal to the world. Biden is doing the right thing.
Sell them all the arms they want. In fact use the russian money we just froze to pay for the weapons. Pile up the sanctions as high as we can. Then kick them some more.
Please help support and defend Biden on this issue.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

1. They aren't a member, but they were on track to become one

The Pro-Russian government that was overthrown in 2014 had cancelled their membership request. They've been working towards membership since then.

[msfiddlestix]

9. ✔️ ✔️ ✔️ ✔️ ✔️ n/t

[RussBLib]

2. no, they were in negotiations to join NATO

but popular support for the idea has vacillated over the years. it was low until Russia invaded Crimea in 2014, then it rose. It is a popular idea now, especially after this Russian attack. But a desire to join is not enough. All sorts of details and conditions must be met first.

[Happy Hoosier]

3. That's misleading....

Yanukovich… Putin’s lapdog… cancelled Ukraine’s efforts to join NATO. Those efforts were renewed after Crimea. Since then, Ukraine has been steadily heading down the NATO membership path.

[The Jungle 1]

7. Very high poll numbers disagres with your position.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2010/03/29/ukraine-says-no-to-nato/
This article is by the well respected Pew Research Center. Written in March of 2010.
From the article:
When asked about what they would like to see for their country’s relationship with Russia, two-thirds (66%) believed that the countries “should be independent, but friendly states — with open borders, no visas and customs.” Another 22% of Ukrainians believed that the countries “should unite into one state.” Few Ukrainians (8%) wanted relations to be “the same as with other countries — with closed borders, visas and customs.” Pew Research Center

66% wanted to be "friendly" with russia! I guess russia has a different definition of friendship. There are still a lot of people in Ukraine who support russia and want to be friends.

My point is that we need to have good arguments against the right when they start calling Biden weak. Things like NATO protects NATO. Things like why didn't trump do anything when Iran attacked and bombed an American base in Iraq. Push back is what I am saying.

[Happy Hoosier]

8. 2010 was 12 years ago... 4 years BEFORE CRIMEA.

C'mon man... this is Russian propaganda. Stop it.

[msfiddlestix]

10. ✔️ ✔️ ✔️ ✔️ ✔️ n/t

[The Jungle 1]

13. Exactly Ukraine had 12 years to join NATO.

They didn't do it and now they are on their own. We will not send troops.
After all trump did to this country his supporters never left his side. The folks in Ukraine are no different. If you did a poll a few months ago before the buildup I bet the results would be near the same. Changing peoples opinion is damn near impossible. But you can win/end the debate.

I want you to understand my over riding point and goal. First we need to stop picking the fly shit out of the pepper.
Biden needs our support. The right is already calling him weak. My argument works. The low information voters on the right have nothing to say when you use it. I have done it several times already.
The other argument that supports us is how trump did nothing when Iran attacked our base in Iraq. He did nothing because trump is weak. Half the time they do not even remember that incident. But they have no argument to offer and they stop calling Biden weak. At least while I am standing there.
I am asking everyone to support Biden with solid arguments and statements.
Just don't use the pepper for a while.

I truly believe history will show Biden made some really smart moves on this. Sanctions will work! We can send russia back 30 years in a short time. Russian people will suffer and perhaps they will reconsider their support of putin. More importantly the oligarchs will also suffer. putin better keep his head down. He might get served some bad ice tea.

[Happy Hoosier]

16. Wow. Just... WOW.

Now your narrative has changed. Crimea was 6 years ago, BTW. And the Ukrainians were largely demuring on NATO because they didn't want to piss off the Russians. Well... THAT didn't work.

Let's be clear.... I am giving Biden a shot here, but this is a defining moment of his Presidency. As much as I love Obama, he failed on Crimea. Maybe it was a no-win situation for him. But for Biden, if Ukraine falls to the Russians and stays under their control, THAT will be remembered as a defining event for him. And it will cost him.... and us.

And your re-cast of history with piss-poor context is a problem IMO. It sounds lie something a Russian troll would say. I'm not saying you are a Russian troll, but if you aren't please re-read your posts. Because to me, it really feels like you are soft-peddling this.

[The Jungle 1]

26. My narrative has not changed

This is from my first post.
"Please help support and defend Biden on this issue."
My narrative has been the same from the start. Biden is being attacked falsely for being weak. He is not weak. Biden and the WORLD refuse to send troops into this conflict because Ukraine is not a NATO member. They are not NATO members and we have no agreement or responsibility to die for them. We are not the police of the world. Conflicts between countries go on all the time. Sanctions will work. We can bring russia to their knees. This folks is the advantage of a world economy. Biden has frozen 1 trillion of russian assets. Biden will stop all tech sales. There will be no trade with russia.

My hope was that on this forum people would help defend Biden. Apparently that is not the case.
Your personal attacks of me and Obama are uncalled for.
The rules of this forum are clear. Perhaps you should review them.

Why did we go to war with Vietnam? OH yea to stop the spread of communism. Wow that sounds kinda familiar. How did that work out for us?

I have skin in this game. My son is a lieutenant in the National Guard. Do you have skin in this? Would YOU die for this cause?

[Happy Hoosier]

28. I'm talking about the "they had their chance" bullshit.

And you citing a poll from BEFORE Crimea as a justification for your statement.

If that was a Freshman argumentative paper, that cite would be laughable.

Ukraine is not Viet Nam. It is EUROPE, and like it not, EUROPE is different from South East Asia.

And yes, I have skin on the game too. My nephew is in the military.

I will gladly defend Biden IF he deserves defending. I am giving him some space, but his repsonse has been.... LESS than I hoped for, or think it needs to be.

[The Jungle 1]

32. Very surprised at the negative reaction of providing support for Biden

Bottom line Ukraine had many years to join NATO they didn't do it. I don't know the reason they are NOT a member. We cannot send NATO troops just because some country says they wanted to be in NATO. So you are asking Biden to send our military as a stand alone force. Not gonna happen. The world will have to join and that is not going to happen. We will smash russia with huge sanctions. It is a world economy and they will pay. Biden froze 1 trillion already.
This situation is exactly the same thing as Vietnam! You are asking our military to impose our political system on another nation. It never works. Biden learned the lesson of Vietnam. I believe russia is going to relearn their lesson of Afghanistan and Poland etc.
Forum rule:
Do not post anything that smears Democrats generally, or that is intended to dissuade people from supporting the Democratic Party or its candidates.
I would say you are walking a thin line.

[iemanja]

51. You're repeatedly distorting the situation with NATO

at this point, it's deliberate misinformation.

[The Jungle 1]

59. So don't read my stuff

[CrackityJones75]

64. That isn't how you fight disinformation

Whether intentional or not YOU are spreading disinformation.

You should delete your posts.

[Demsrule86]

52. We see right through this...Biden has said he won't said troops...but you breathlessly announce why

he shouldn't and 'he's not weak' ...it is opposite day...You make an assumption that Biden needs defending from being called weak ( a Fox talking point no less)...why is that? Oh, and a 12-year-old poll is completely worthless.

[The Jungle 1]

58. So don't read my stuff

[Happy Hoosier]

55. If you think I am walking a thin line, report me.

Last edited Fri Feb 25, 2022, 04:14 PM - Edit history (1)

I have no further interest in your posts on this matter.

[The Jungle 1]

60. Good

[Hortensis]

20. Biden's "moves" are well regarded in capitals around the planet and

by experts on both sides of the political spectrum here. Heads of democracies are all glad to have competence and principle return to the WH.

And they all know Ukraine would join NATO if it could and was working toward it. That's been a given for years, and certainly for the 8 years that Russian military has been fighting in their country and occupying whole chunks.

[Doc Sportello]

15. No it isn't

Rejecting poll numbers from a respected institution like Pew because they don't fit with your worldview doesn't help the cause. Nor does calling something a RW source when it isn't. Isn't that like the RWNJs yelling fake news when given facts they don't like?

[Happy Hoosier]

18. 2010!!!!

Ya think anything has changed in 12 years !!!????

C'mon... this is insane.

[Doc Sportello]

19. Date doesn't make Pew a RW source

Numbers from a credible source. The OP explained his rationale and it was more sane than the emotion based attacks.

[Happy Hoosier]

21. Way to miss the point.

The point is not that the poll isn't reputable it's that it is irrelevant! LOTS of things have happened since then and that poll cannot be used as any kind of reliable gauge on what Ukraine has been doing since the Maidan revolution. C'mon.... surely you see that!?

[Hav]

23. The point was

that Ukraine's movement towards the West was attempted to be refuted (which it didn't at all) with a poll from 2010...before Ukraine's revolution.

[Demsrule86]

50. It is 12 years old...and not appropriate I don't care what the OP said...ridiculous.

[intheflow]

54. I'm a librarian and would never cite such and old source.

Any poll results older than five years is grossly out of date. especially for a poll - which seeks to caption opinions of a moment, which is why polling in American politics is continuous. And given the complete clusterfuck of the last 5 years, I really wouldn't cite any source older than the last two years. This is that same kind of intellectual laziness that the MAGA crowd exhibits.

Consider this Pew poll from 2020 showing Ukrainian support for NATO rising almost 20 points from 2007 to 2019. The fact that the world has been disrupted by COVID in the years since 2019 means that they might have been moved to join NATO eventually, perhaps even by now, except they were dealing with the pandemic, accompanying economic and supply chain disruptions, and the Russian threat. It's entirely possible that they just didn't have the bandwidth as a nation to pursue NATO membership during COVID.

[Hav]

22. First, it's a poll from 2010

Secondly, there is nothing controversial about wanting to be friendly with your neighboring states and given the history they had.
Ukraine moved towards the West though. They actually had a revolution because of that to get rid of a Putin puppet. Why do you think a poll from 2010 refutes the argument that Ukraine moved towards the West when so much happened after 2010?

[CrackityJones75]

65. Exactly.

those posts citing that poll and the following “justification” need to be removed.


If I was that blatantly wrong I would be embarrassed and delete them myself. But some people have no ability to see their own mistakes and cannot admit them.

Unreal.

[texasfiddler]

4. I think that Putin felt Dump/Manafort would help him install another Yanukovych

THAT is why Putin did not invade during the Orange Mussolini era. I agree this thread is very misleading.

[RussBLib]

5. but the responses have been good

including mine (he said, humbly)

hopefully the OP author has learned something

[The Jungle 1]

6. Reminders

We need to remind the right of what trump did when Iran bombed our base in Iraq. He did nothing. America was attacked and trump did nothing!!!!
Our support of Biden dependents on informing the right of our history.
The right is a low information group. Don't dive to far into the pond.
Play the same game faux plays.
Yo this is very important.

[msfiddlestix]

11. So much had radically changed you're not taking into account democracy happened., please stop

peddling Putin's bullshit rational for what he's doing. please.

[The Jungle 1]

14. I don't know how you make the leap that I am support putin.

I am supporting BIDEN.
I want us to support Biden against the wack jobs on the right who are calling him weak.
Ukraine is not a NATO member and we will not send troops because they are NOT in NATO. Now help me support Biden.

[msfiddlestix]

25. I understand NATO can't send troops to Ukraine

Because Ukraine isn't a NATO member. What I attempted to point out, is that Putin installed his guy in Ukraine to prevent NATO membership. But that guy was ousted and a democratically elected President wants to be a member. Putin went to plan B taking advantage of this situation while he still can without fearing NATO's defense presence to foil his plans. to put it simply.

Putin is arguing he has the right, and he will take advantage of his perceived "right" to declare Ukraine Russia territory.
He's using the same argument.

[The Jungle 1]

27. Agreed democracy did happen in Ukraine

Where we disagree is that I don't think the people of Ukraine wanted to be in NATO. I bet they do now.
However I will freely admit I cannot support that position. It is just an opinion.

I still want us to support Biden at all costs. We need good arguments to do that. Biden and the world are providing strong leadership.

[msfiddlestix]

63. We are in agreement, especially supporting Biden;s efforts

Personally, my whole thinking on NATO has turned a 180 since 2016/2017.

This is the point of disagreement perhaps. (?)


I tended to be sympathetic to anti-NATO sentiment as regards to Russia's "concerns" and paranoia regarding NATO countries bordering Russia. What happened in Georgia in 2008 was confusing to me at the time, and we were at the same moment in the middle of elections, and a catastrophic financial meltdown/crises which consumed my attention.

But my thinking has changed quite dramatically, perhaps radically. I see everything quite differently now.

Putin's egregious imperialist aggression needs to be countered and defeated. full stop, in my opinion.

[The Jungle 1]

17. You might want to review the rules of this site!

[lagomorph777]

24. Nice piece of Putin Propaganda.

Putin's puppet turned down NATO, long before Putin's invasion of Crimea.
Ukraine ousted the puppet and has been trying to join NATO for some time.

We're not blind.

[The Jungle 1]

29. Please support that position.

I don't think it takes years and years to join NATO.
I am of the opinion that the people of Ukraine did not want to join.
As an example I don't agree with any of the trump crowd. But they are part of my democracy. They stand in the way of a lot of things I want for my country.

[lagomorph777]

30. My position is amply supported by ACTUAL FACTS and RECENT polls.

Relations between Ukraine and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) started in 1992.[1] Ukraine applied to begin a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) in 2008.[2][3] Plans for NATO membership were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 presidential election in which Viktor Yanukovych, who preferred to keep the country non-aligned, was elected President.[4][5] Amid the Euromaidan unrest, Yanukovych fled Ukraine in February 2014.[6] The interim Yatseniuk Government which came to power initially said, with reference to the country's non-aligned status, that it had no plans to join NATO.[7] However, following the Russian military invasion in Ukraine and parliamentary elections in October 2014, the new government made joining NATO a priority.[8] On 21 February 2019, the Constitution of Ukraine was amended, the norms on the strategic course of Ukraine for membership in the European Union and NATO are enshrined in the preamble of the Basic Law, three articles and transitional provisions.[9][10]

At the June 2021 Brussels Summit, NATO leaders reiterated the decision taken at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine would become a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP) as an integral part of the process and Ukraine's right to determine its own future and foreign policy, of course without outside interference.[11] NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg also stressed that Russia will not be able to veto Ukraine's accession to NATO, as we will not return to the era of spheres of interest, when large countries decide what smaller ones should do.[12]

According to polls conducted between 2005 and 2013, Ukrainian public support of NATO membership remained low.[13][14][15][16][17][18][19] However, since the Russo-Ukrainian War and Annexation of Crimea, public support for Ukrainian membership in NATO has risen greatly. Since June 2014, polls showed that about 50% of those asked supported Ukrainian NATO membership.[20][21][22][23] Some 69% of Ukrainians want to join NATO, according to a June 2017 poll by the Democratic Initiatives Foundation, compared to 28% support in 2012 when Yanukovych was in power.[24]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations

[The Jungle 1]

36. No support for NATO until russia took Crimea.

Hey great support of your statement. You do show that in the last few years Ukraine wanted to be in NATO.

I think we are way off the subject. Probably my fault.
Ukraine is not a member of NATO. My understanding is that NATO will not send troops to a non member country. Isn't that really the issue. We need to support Biden and let the country know NATO is not an option. We would have to build a coalition or go it alone.
Biden and the world have decided that sanctions will work. We need to support Biden. Which was the whole point of my original post.

[lagomorph777]

37. Yes, people's opinion shifted after Putin attacked them from inside and from outside.

Of course. So, yes, obviously, the facts strongly support my position.

Your position seems to be that a long time ago, Ukraine didn't want to join NATO, and they are never allowed to adapt to the changing reality, well over a decade later.

Your defense of Putin's positions is really weak.

You are no Biden supporter.

[The Jungle 1]

39. You should review the forum rules

[lagomorph777]

40. As should you.

[lapucelle]

42. That's incorrect.

Your narrative concerning Ukraine and NATO skips over several important details. Moreover, your timeline is off.

Relations between Ukraine and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) started in 1992. Ukraine applied to begin a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) in 2008.

Plans for NATO membership were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 presidential election in which Viktor Yanukovych, who preferred to keep the country non-aligned, was elected President. Amid the Euromaidan unrest, Yanukovych fled Ukraine in February 2014.

The interim Yatseniuk Government which came to power initially said, with reference to the country's non-aligned status, that it had no plans to join NATO. However, following the Russian military invasion in Ukraine and parliamentary elections in October 2014, the new government made joining NATO a priority. On 21 February 2019, the Constitution of Ukraine was amended, the norms on the strategic course of Ukraine for membership in the European Union and NATO are enshrined in the preamble of the Basic Law, three articles and transitional provisions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations

[lapucelle]

31. Actually it does take years to join NATO.

https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/pdf_2016_07/20160627_1607-factsheet-enlargement-eng.pdf

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you have any support for your claim on another thread that Ukraine "did not join NATO" because it didn't want to pay NATO dues?

==================================================================



https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216392705#post103

==================================================================


Where does that talking point come from?

[lagomorph777]

34. "Where does that talking point come from?"

RT? Wherever the rest of that collection of cherrypicked outdated factoids comes from, anyway.

[The Jungle 1]

38. The dues part of the statement was a flip statement of no meaning.

Excusing the real fact that there are a lot of NATO nations who don't pay their dues.
Ukraine did not support joining NATO until russia took Crimea.
Again I sure did not expect this kind of push back when all I was requesting was support for Biden.
Biden is not weak and is handling this like the seasoned pro he is. Wish you guys would help with that.

[lapucelle]

41. Was it a "flip statement of no meaning" when TFG kept bringing up dues when talking about NATO?

Your narrative concerning Ukraine and NATO skips over several important details. Moreover, your timeline is off.

Relations between Ukraine and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) started in 1992. Ukraine applied to begin a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) in 2008.

Plans for NATO membership were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 presidential election in which Viktor Yanukovych, who preferred to keep the country non-aligned, was elected President. Amid the Euromaidan unrest, Yanukovych fled Ukraine in February 2014.

The interim Yatseniuk Government which came to power initially said, with reference to the country's non-aligned status, that it had no plans to join NATO. However, following the Russian military invasion in Ukraine and parliamentary elections in October 2014, the new government made joining NATO a priority. On 21 February 2019, the Constitution of Ukraine was amended, the norms on the strategic course of Ukraine for membership in the European Union and NATO are enshrined in the preamble of the Basic Law, three articles and transitional provisions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In addition, NATO itself does not support the facile talking point that "NATO takes care of NATO".

A sovereign, independent and stable Ukraine, firmly committed to democracy and the rule of law, is key to Euro-Atlantic security. Relations between NATO and Ukraine date back to the early 1990s and have since developed into one of the most substantial of NATO’s partnerships. Since 2014, in the wake of the Russia-Ukraine conflict, cooperation has been intensified in critical areas.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_37750.htm

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why exactly does President Biden need the country to understand a narrative rife with factual errors and "flip statements of no meaning"? Who benefits?

Cui bono?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[The Jungle 1]

44. I really do not understand this push back.

You folks pick and pick and pick at me when I am just presenting a narrative that will shut the vast majority of low information voters down. You ignore them and we lose elections.
I used this narrative last night shooting pool and shut down the whole conversation. I said fuck um they are not in NATO. it was accepted that we don't have any responsibility to defend them. I got no argument from the hard core right wing loons. They didn't pick it apart and they will not research it. We have to start dealing with the right the same way Fox does. On their LEVEL. When I brought up that trump did nothing when Iran bombed our base in Iraq. They didn't even remember it happening. We constantly deal with the right at a high intelligence level and they do not understand any of it and resent us.
I really think one of the reasons we have this huge divide is we no longer co-mingle. I have a lot of middle class republican friends. They know my politics and we make it work.

[lapucelle]

47. "I said fuck um they are not in NATO.

it was accepted that we don't have any responsibility to defend them. I got no argument from the hard core right wing loons."

Isn't that a Tucker Carlson talking point? Maybe that's why the "right wing loons" didn't argue.

[Demsrule86]

48. Yes, it is a Tucker Carlson talking point.

[The Jungle 1]

49. Wouldn't know I never listen to that asshat.

Do you?

[lapucelle]

53. Of course I don't listen to asshats like Tucker Carlson,

but I recognize their talking points when I hear them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

So did you really tell all the right wing loons at the pool hall

"Fuck um they are not in NATO."

Did the right wing loons at the pool hall really accept your claim that

"We don't have any responsibility to defend them."

I wonder why you didn't get any push back from right wing loons, but you are getting push back here.

[lapucelle]

35. Please support your position that Ukraine did not want to pay NATO dues.

[marie999]

43. Ukraine can not join NATO for two reasons.

First, it can't get every NATO country to vote yes, not even the US. Second, while it is getting to be more of a democracy, it isn't there yet. Transparency International says it is 122 out of 180 countries in corruption. In fact, it dropped 1 place.

[The Jungle 1]

45. I would love to hear more of your opinion.

Do you think we have any responsibility to put our soldiers at risk for them.
I think we are doing the right thing and we can break russia economically.

[marie999]

56. President Biden will not send troops to Ukraine.

The US and other NATO countries have to keep sanctions high, but not too high. If Putin backs off we still need to hurt him and others financially. If he doesn't back off, raise sanctions but again not so high it totally cripples Russia. The reason I say that is if we do cripple Russia Putin might attack NATO which would start WWIII or it might force Putin to make deals with China that helps Russia some but makes China even stronger than it is now. It could allow China to annex South Western Siberia plus oil, gas, timber, and rare earth minerals. China has the most rare earth minerals but Russia is 4th. This is just my humble opinion since I am not an economist or that well versed in geopolitics. My military intelligence work on Russia ended many years ago.

[The Jungle 1]

57. You have reasonable positions. Thanks

[lapucelle]

61. Is there a particular reason why you link to Pravda for one of your earlier posts on Ukraine?

I had to copy this article in Pravda how can I just link it to DU. I will stop doing cut and paste.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10142853801#post2

[marie999]

62. I think that is one of my earliest posts from Pravda.

DU community did ask me why. From then on I still linked posts from Pravda and TASS, but I also wrote in my posts that Pravda and TASS are controlled by the government and many of their articles are propaganda. The reason I link posts from them is to show what the Russian government and particularly Putin are telling the Russian people. It is important for us to know what the Russian people are being told. It also gives us an insight into what Putin is thinking. When I was in Military intelligence as a Russian linguist I started every day reading Pravda and TASS although in those days I read them in Russian. I read everything I could including classified Russian scientific documents that did not seem to have any military or geopolitical reasons. That was in the 60s when it was very important to know as much as possible about the Soviet Union. I think that today it is just as important to know what Putin is thinking. I will say that I was very surprised that Russia invaded Ukraine at this time. I would have thought that Putin would have tried to get Zelenskyy to sign a non-aggression treaty that included a firm statement that Ukraine would not join NATO. Would that have kept Putin from invading Ukraine, we will never know. I do not have any idea what he is planning to do next.

[Demsrule86]

46. No one said anything about troops...by why the post? It does nothing but help Putin.