I get it. We are suppose to watch genocide in Ukraine on our tv's

[boston bean]

Root for them. Send them weapons and intelligence and money and food. Prayers and thoughts.

While Putin kills them. God forbid we do anything to stop it…….he might use a nuke.

Well, let me tell you something. He is gonna threaten it all the time. We just gonna sit back and let him take over the world?

My opinion, which to many probably means diddly squat and that is ok, is that we don’t allow him to threaten us. We stand up to it. Otherwise he becomes stronger each and every time and for sure the end result will be nuclear.

We have already appeased this monster for 10 years cause we are afraid of his nukes.

What are we gaining by just sitting back and letting him kill civilians and taking over a free democratic nation.

I love Joe Biden. But I do think he did one thing wrong. Stating emphatically we would not send a troop to Ukraine and that we will not provide a zero fly zone. Whether he never did or not and never intended to, he should have not taken that off the table by speaking those words.

[USALiberal]

1. So do you think we should send soldiers over there? Nt

[boston bean]

3. If Putin starts killing civilians en masse, yes. I do think we should.

[USALiberal]

6. How many American soldiers death would you tolerate??

[boston bean]

9. Well, everyone keeps saying how weak they are fighting a conventional war.

They are good at bombing buildings from the sky.

I am not sure. I don’t like death. I don’t like war. But there is a time for peace and a time for war.

Where do you draw the line?

[USALiberal]

21. I don't wanna send our soldiers into that mess. Equipment fine. Weapons fine.

[boston bean]

25. Never for any reason?

[USALiberal]

30. You are correct, I'm sure there are things that could happen that Could change my mind. Nt

[Woodswalker]

2. You have a good heart

But your a bit daft if you think America is ready to take on Russia in a ground war in Ukraine

[boston bean]

4. Maybe.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

5. Putin gets weaker. He is having to resort to propaganda in the schools & making sharing social media

... sharing social media illegal.

There is talk that martial law may be brought in Russia, perhaps tomorrow.

But the mothers will know. And thus families and friends will know. Putin can't lie to his people too much, that would be another miscalculation.

[ruet]

47. Russia Will Take Ukraine Without Direct Assistance.

The mothers, families and friends won't do crap about it. Then what?

[madaboutharry]

7. There are a lot of people who feel the same as you.

Biden made a mistake taking anything off the table.

One thing I do think is true is that there are things happening we don’t know about.

[2naSalit]

79. I think...

He had to take that off the table for a number of reasons, one of which is to quell a lot of public outcry and/or panic. He just ended a long war and nobody is thrilled about the idea of going back to that status.

Another thing to think about is that Europe kind ought to have a say in our participation which is probably why we are not going to send out troops. We are providing a lot of support, intel, logistical help and other things I can't think of.

I trust what our CoC has decided for now and that is how I can sleep at all right now.

[lame54]

8. Thank you...

For not being President right now

[boston bean]

11. LOL

[lame54]

15. ...

[boston bean]

19. ...

[BlackSkimmer]

10. I'm curious, what were your feelings about the Rwandan genocide?

Do you remember how many died there?

[boston bean]

12. Yeah. I do.

This is another superpower committing genocide. This is a great threat to the entire world.

[BlackSkimmer]

18. Oh ok, those people in small African countries murdering one another...

Not to worry, even if it’s genocide. 800,000.

Ok, got it.

[boston bean]

20. Yeah, that's what I said. Not.

[BlackSkimmer]

26. What did you say then?

[boston bean]

27. Exactly what I wrote. Read it.

[BlackSkimmer]

31. See post 28.

I got ya.

It’s ok in countries that aren’t superpowers. 800,000 people, oh well.

[boston bean]

34. Whatever. Argue with yourself.

[BlackSkimmer]

36. Lol.

Righto.

[BlackSkimmer]

28. We watched genocide on our TVs then too, don't you remember?

The awful machete murders? Families killing family members?

That’s what your OP said,right? That we shouldn’t watch genocide without taking action?

Perhaps you should clarify if genocide is ok is some countries, like, if they are not superpowers and all.

[boston bean]

32. I have already explained why this is different. You want to say I don't care about black people.

There is a huge difference here and why we should be involved for our own defense.

[BlackSkimmer]

35. You are the first one to bring race into this.

I thought you were talking about superpowers, not race.

[boston bean]

37. That is not what your were implying. Ok.

[BlackSkimmer]

38. Hmm, hit a nerve I suppose.

You claim because that country wasn’t a superpower we didn’t have to care.

Please explain to me why the color of its citizens should make a damn bit of difference?

Genocide is genocide. Doesn’t matter where it happens or who is doing it to whom.

Does it?

[boston bean]

40. You didn't hit anything. Yes genocide is genocide it is a tragedy. It is inhuman. It is disgusting.

Again this situation has our own national security interests at risk.

This is much different in those terms regarding military action.

[BlackSkimmer]

42. I thought I was supposed to argue with myself?

Yes much different indeed. We could have done something without triggering a world war.

[boston bean]

44. I decided to try reason. Obviously not working. Continue on.

[BlackSkimmer]

46. We could have interceded without triggering a world war.

Do you see that?

Yes, there is a big difference.

[boston bean]

51. We have done some things. Probably as much as we can at this point.

That doesn’t mean other things should not be on the table.


I am not sure we have succeeded in preventing a world war. I think an argument can be made we are kicking this can down the road. Ukrainians may be the sacrificial lamb until Putin puts us to the test again. What do we do? Where is the line.

Morally I don’t think we are doing enough. Secondly, for national security we may just be putting off the inevitable with a more emboldened Putin.

Can I say for sure, no. I cannot. But neither can you.

[Calculating]

16. Not the same

This is a superpower invading a modern European country completely unprovoked.

[BlackSkimmer]

22. Again, I see clearly.

African countries really don’t count. 800,000 murdered. Wow.

Germany was a relatively small country when Hitler began his murdering.

[ruet]

53. Rwanda Was a Civil War.

Not even remotely the same as an invasion by a foreign power.

[maxsolomon]

72. And it was too fast for the world to react.

Ukraine is different. I don't believe 800K will die, but I believe 50K will.

A no-fly zone is tempting. We'd need China to support it, and that is not happening.

[ruet]

84. It Would Have to Be A NATO or EU Action...

outside of the UN. Russia is on the Security Council so a NFZ will never happen there.

[Wingus Dingus]

71. Whatabout Rwanda? Whatabout the Uighurs?

You're suffering from acute whataboutitis. Ukraine and the US and Russia entered into a security agreement in the 90's. Not remotely the same.

[Calculating]

13. Exactly

The world needs to call his bluff, say that any Russian forces invading Ukraine are fair game, and tell Putin to go back in his damn corner. Is he really going to first strike with nukes and end the world because the international community won't let him have Ukraine?

[CentralMass]

77. Well heck, let's just flip a coin. What could possibly go wrong ?

[relayerbob]

14. Whatever they say in public, you can be assurred they are discussing all alternatives

They are putting pressure on the Russians by doing this. They want to cause the opposition to realize it is Putin and take him out themselves. This is the ONLY way this ends. If we go in, then they now are fighting America and feel justified in continuing the war. It's terrible and so hard, but you need to understnad, there is a MUCH larger "game" being played here, and almost all of it behind the scenes.

[boston bean]

17. I can see that. I hope you are right.

[relayerbob]

24. I hope so, also. I believe Putin's days are severly numbered

[ruet]

23. I Don't Know About Ground Forces But;...

I've come to the conclusion that a no-fly zone should be enacted and Russia should be ordered to move it's ground forces back behind the internationally recognised borders of Ukraine. If they refuse they should be pushed back or destroyed outright by NATO air power. Otherwise, as you have said, WTF are we doing? The world cannot sit back and allow this to happen.

[boston bean]

29. If we could have a no fly zone, I think Ukraine could defend themselves.

Putin’s convoys are a laugh. He is gonna bomb the cities to smithereens with missiles and dropping bombs. This is his MO.

[USALiberal]

33. That actually sounds like a good plan. Nt

[Sgent]

89. I generally agree

the one problem is that the Russian S400 anti-aircraft launchers, which are the best in the world, have elements that are located in Russia. To disable that system, NATO would have to bomb Russia proper or be exposed to the most advanced AA system in existence and get shot down.

It uses ballistic missiles so it can probably cover the entire Ukraine from within Russia, and Russia will take extreme offense to a NATO bombing air defense assets inside Russian borders.

[ruet]

90. I'd Take Any Performance Claims Made By Russia About Their Gear With A Grain of Salt.

India's Recently-Imported S-400 Air Defence System Is Overhyped and Overrated

The most comprehensive and authentic evaluation of the S-400 system has been made by the Swedish Defence Research Agency FOI (Totalförsvarets forskningsinstitut) in its 116-page report titled ‘Bursting the Bubble: Russian A2/AD in the Baltic Sea Region’ (A2/AD is jargon for anti-access/area denial). It concludes that its capabilities in general and its capability to counter counter-measures in particular are overrated. The study points out that the system creates much smaller A2/AD bubbles than is often assumed and a number of countermeasures are possible.

The FOI says that there are inherent problems in acquiring manoeuvring objects such as cruise missiles and fighter aircraft that are flying low or are hugging the terrain and this limits the effective range of the S-400. Citing the research of Christofer Berglund et al, it concludes that against such targets, its effective range may be as little as 20-35 km, or even less depending on the terrain.

Justin Bronk, research fellow with the London-based Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) says that the S-400 can be swamped by massed incoming missiles. It can also be spoofed and its engagement capabilities can be disrupted to an extent by electronic attack.

Sebastien Roblin, contributor for War is Boring, points out in his study titled ‘S-400: The Air Force’s Ultimate Nightmare or Over-hyped?’ that the 40N6 missiles are designed to engage adversaries less agile than supersonic fighters, like AWACS, refuelling tankers and other airliner-size targets at medium to high altitudes (between 10,000 – 30,000 feet).

Unanswered Israeli Air Strikes Against Syria Raise S-400 Questions

The first signs of dissatisfaction with the Russian air defense systems came on May 1 when the Syria Direct website ran a story quoting what was described as a Syrian military source who criticized the S-300 air defense systems supplied by Russia. The source pointed to the repeated failures of the Russian-made systems to protect sites in Syria from the Israeli strikes. The comments by the apparent Syrian military official was the first clear sign of a big dispute between Moscow and Ankara related to the operational efficiency of the air defense systems.

Turkey has signed a deal with Russia to purchase S-400 systems in a deal worth more than $1 billion. The first systems have already been supplied to Turkey but they are not operational yet.

Last year, the Israeli air force hit more than 200 targets in Syria connected to the Iranian effort to upgrade Hezbollah’s rockets. Some of those attacks have been reported to involve Israeli F-35s. The attacks continue apace this year with Syrian air defense forces having launched more than 1,000 surface-air missiles to try and foil the repeated Israeli attacks. They’ve had little effect so far.

The latest attack was Thursday. According to the Syrian Center for Human Rights, at least nine people were killed, four of them Syrians and five of whom are unknown at this time. Reportedly, the number may go up. The Lebanese Al-Miyadin channel, which is close to Hezbollah, reported that Israeli planes attacked four targets and returned to Israel. Israeli aircraft attacked Syrian regime security factories and destroyed weapons depots, according to the Syrian Center for Human Rights.

[Wingus Dingus]

39. Things that are off the table can instantly be brought back ON the table.

It doesn't mean much. I think he's just getting it on record that the US is 100% a non-aggressor in Putin's war-crime shit show, and we will play by the international rules. If something really scary/provocative happens, it's all back on the table and it will escalate. But threats to send troops, or declared red lines and triggers--if not followed through on when crossed--are really bad for our credibility and to be avoided.

[boston bean]

41. I am not saying for him to make threats. Just not make it seem like we have zero power

in this militarily by saying what we will and won’t do at this stage.

[BlackSkimmer]

45. Maybe you should see if you can get the ear of one of his advisors.

For now, I’ll trust him and his circle.

[boston bean]

48. I doubt I will have that opportunity. I do however have the opportunity to state my

opinions on DU as you are entitled to disagree and state your own. But most of your posts are personal responses versus stating your opinion. You get very worked up.

Have fun.

[BlackSkimmer]

50. Still arguing?

You never answered my question, btw.

[boston bean]

52. All I have been doing is answering your questions. Which one did I miss?

[BlackSkimmer]

67. So it's ok to turn a blind eye to genocide as long as our interests are not threatened?

People in many countries thought that same thing as the 1930s came to a dreadful close…

As someone else pointed out here, should we be taking action in China? They’re a superpower, right?

[Wingus Dingus]

55. At this stage, he's not going to send troops or planes or create a no-fly zone

and we actually do have zero power in this event, in terms of being participants in the theater. I believe he does this not only to to keep things from escalating (important--we want no misunderstandings), but to prevent Russia from doing stupid dishonest shit like claiming US personnel are embedded in Ukraine, or that a Russian plane that gets shot down is somehow our fault.

Remember that Russia claimed the US was behind Ukraine turning against its leaders and Russia back in 2013. Putin always uses the US and NATO to rally his people's support--it's vital to his cause. He would love to be able to point out to the Russian people how the US or NATO are being aggressive and hurting Russians--it would be a gift in his hope to get domestic support for the invasion. If and when Biden does decide that Putin has crossed a line, it will be most likely very clear and plenty of warning that we are going to take some action. VITAL that there is no miscommunication or surprises.

[boston bean]

56. Putin's gonna say what he wants and lie and propagandize.

Did we not just listen to 5 years of it. That should make zero difference, imho.

[Wingus Dingus]

60. From what I've read of Russian propaganda, they don't make things up

100 percent whole cloth--what they do is twist and embellish. They'll start with a fact "kernel" that is provably true, and then add to it--that way it's not dismissed outright as completely ridiculous and unbelievable.

That's why he's using "denazification" and corruption as a rationale to "protect" the Ukrainians and ethnic Russians--because there ARE some neo-nazi skinhead types in Ukraine, as there are in pretty much every western country. Same with corruption, it's there and everywhere to varying degrees (including here). Just enough fact to start building the propaganda about Nazis being in power and corruption at all levels.

These rationales are obvious and stupid lies to us, but there's just enough substance to them to twist them into something plausible for his people to grab onto. And then he will look for opportunities to build on these initial falsehoods with more facts, however small. One of our goals should be to deny him the opportunity to rally his people, win the support of other countries, or make arguments in Russia's favor on the world stage or at the UN. So if Biden was saying that's it's POSSIBLE that US forces might be involved in some way, it will be instantly twisted in Russian media into "US threatens to intervene in Russia's territory" or "US might already be on the ground in Ukraine!" We cannot give him this sort of opening. I think Biden is being wise and careful.

[boston bean]

62. I understand. I just don't agree it should come into our calculus.

Where do we draw the line. Invasion of a nato country? I believe it would be sooner.

Hundreds of thousands dead Ukrainian citizens? Maybe. A nuke? More likely.

[Wingus Dingus]

66. It may be that Putin's war becomes

so ghastly and on such a scale that many countries decide it's time to intervene, whether it takes the shape of NATO or non-affiliated countries or a hybrid. But I think Ukraine would unfortunately have surrendered by then, to save themselves. It's awful to contemplate that they may not prevail--it's like a horror movie where everyone in a group gets away, except one poor person, who gets grabbed by the ankle and dragged to its doom. But that's why I'm so adamant about cutting Russia off, economically and culturally, from western powers, especially Europe. They can't be allowed to win even if Ukraine loses.

[Shanti Shanti Shanti]

43. Fraid so, the tanks will keep rolling, airstrikes for months, the west wont fight Russia

Not openly, not for any reason. You know why...

[BlackSkimmer]

49. I don't think he has done anything wrong.

So I guess we will just have to disagree.

[SoonerPride]

54. Do something to stop it.

Go volunteer for their foreign legion.

They would appreciate a passionate defender.

[BlackSkimmer]

57. Indeed. nt

[Laura PourMeADrink]

64. So we as citizens need to fight? When we pay zillions

In taxes for a world class military? Not trying to be mean or snarky but what you say doesn't seem to make sense to me, sorry.

[SoonerPride]

69. If our military isn't going and you want to stop it then go

No one is stopping you.

I don’t get being outraged that others aren’t fighting if you are unwilling to do so.

Why are you willing to send others to die for this noble cause that you yourself don’t want to die for?

It seems incredibly privileged to me.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

73. ?? Why have a military then?

[SoonerPride]

75. To protect our country and treaty Allies

Ukraine is neither of those.

Again why not go fight?

Why do you want to sentence others to death that you are unwilling to do yourself ?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

81. Wow. Will pretend you didn't say that. Will put you

on my "not a bleeding heart liberal" list

[ruet]

85. To Protect Our Country From What?

Last edited Thu Mar 3, 2022, 03:11 AM - Edit history (1)

You know that the US is virtually impossible to invade, right?

[Wingus Dingus]

74. I don't think it's privileged to want our military to be committed

to stopping something we see as terrible, bloody, and against democracy. We've watched our military fight in many wars in our history that we may or may not have thought were worthwhile. If you don't believe this is a worthwhile cause, that's fine and understandable, but it's OK if other folks think we SHOULD commit military forces to this. It is a very destabilizing event, it affects our national security even now as we sit on the sidelines, and a nation that we promised to protect under Bill Clinton is being wiped off the map. It's a big fucking deal.

[SoonerPride]

76. Ukraine isn't a treaty member of NATO

Agin why do you want others to fight when you won’t?

[Wingus Dingus]

80. That's not how any of this works. Americans who are not in the

military are still able to have an opinion, as citizens and voters, in where our military is committed. Ukraine not being in NATO is why we aren't in this direct fight. But we do have a friendly relationship with Ukraine, and the aforementioned prior security agreement--and we have obvious security interests in deterring Putin from threatening and destabilizing his neighbors. And we have security and economic interests in deterring China from attacking its neighbors and our allies there. It's very rational to consider whether military action is justified or desirable or even possible.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

83. +1

[ecstatic]

58. He had no choice due to what rethugs were saying and spreading on social media.

Last week, so many people called and texted saying we were at war with Russia. President Biden had to clarify what was actually happening. And yes, it sucks.

Frankly, I don't see why we're letting one madman do all this. If putin gives zero fucks, then take him out, along with whoever is next in line if s/he shares the same "nukes are an option" philosophy. Install Alexei Navalny. Hell, we've done it before... several times. It's kind of our MO.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

65. Think illegal isn't it? Navalny 1/2 brain dead in a gulag isn't he?

[cagefreesoylentgreen]

87. Oh hell no

Google “Nalvany xenophobia” and you may want to rethink your position on installing that guy as the next leader of Russia. The only thing that man has going for him is that he’s not Putin.

Link to tweet

?s=21

[Sympthsical]

59. We're not at war with China, either

And they are doing a far of a hell lot worse to people.

It's not a zero sum game. It's about reducing worse options. A wider war between superpowers has the potential to be catastrophic. At the moment, the Western powers are seeing what they can do given the current situation. If the situation changes, the response will probably change. Better to move stolidly forward with consensus than give in to panic or precipitousness.

It sucks to watch people suffer, but the solution to that is not to hastily enact a strategy that spreads the misery and death when there are potentially better options on the table.

[BlackSkimmer]

61. You say it better than I.

I’ve seen no one call for intercession in China, which is also a superpower. Also engaged in genocide.

Thank you.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

63. +1,000,000

Thought I was the only one here. Well, there's a few of us.

Thanks so much for posting BB

[Chautauquas]

68. I can't help but notice

that a lot of the people who are of the opinion that we should put American lives at risk aren't the ones who would actually be doing the fighting, killing, and dying.

[SoonerPride]

70. Exactly.

If the OP is truly upset then they should by all means go fight.

It is after all a noble cause.

[Renew Deal]

78. You're more or less correct

This is basically like every other situation in world history. Wait until it's too late and then respond.

[Solly Mack]

82. It is hard to watch. Hard to think about. But, I rather a President who wasn't

an ego-driven blowhard, puffed up with braggadocio, claiming how he would kick ass in days because - America!

Not that Trump would lift a finger against Putin, but anyone else he would he itching to fire a nuke and he would share this with the world.

He'd even brag about some clandestine operation.

We know this because that's the type of shit he did.

Biden is not going to broadcast everything he and his team are talking about. Not what he discusses with other leaders, not what he discusses with anyone.

We could lose the coalition now in place if we make a move that could lead to an escalation in hostilities. Then what?

Go it alone?

Any forward momentum would have to have the full support of all involved against Putin. Is that a guarantee? I don't know.

The threat of Putin using a nuke isn't the only thing in the balance. And that's not exactly a threat people should dismiss because that threat has been there for decades. It's still real - more especially so when dealing with a megalomaniac with delusions of empire.

I'm sickened by the thought of any people being murdered because of the desires of a mad man.

I do not support wars of aggression, regardless of who starts them.

I feel helpless. I'm saddened and sick, but I don't see an easy way forward.

I don't know the answer. I just know it hurts - feeling helpless to stop the butchering of others.

[Lancero]

86. Their is a lot more we could be doing, without sending in the military.

Biggest thing would be to start sanctioning Russia's top exports. Germany imported almost 20 billion euros in Russian gas and oil last year alone - 20 billion euros, which are helping to fund Russias invasion into Ukraine.

How much more funding does the rest of the EU provide to the Russian military? How much do we? Even before involving other nations, Germany alone covered a third of Russia's military budget last year.

[Justice matters.]

88. I don't think the russian mob now oligarchs will accept being

stripped of their fortunes (Penthouse condominiums, High-Class yachts, offshore bank accounts, et al) they stole from the people for over 30 years due to the awful paranoia of a ex-KGB junior who has made them lose it all.

The stupid terrorist with nukes will be WANTED dead or alive soon.

Also, they hate to imagine they could go from billionaires' resorts in the Bahamas to nuclear winter abject misery in a few days notice. They may be (they are) High-Class crooks but they enjoyed luxury...