Please help me understand something. WHY aren't we bombing that convoy?

[calimary]

The one that's headed toward Kyiv - even while beset with problems and slowdowns?

OR - if we can't because we're bound by treaties, WHY ISN'T ANOTHER NATION DOING IT?


Totally NON-military here. With no expertise whatsoever, and no one close to me who has served. As a civilian, I don't understand why America just sits and watches when the Ukrainians are - well - apparently doomed? When America is so well-equipped to do something effective to stop it?


I hope DUers who are more experienced or better-situated to understand this stuff can help me understand this. Because I Just. Do. NOT. Understand. This.


Thank you in advance.

[SoonerPride]

1. Because we are not treaty Allies with Ukraine

And we don’t want WW3

That’s why.

[Ex Lurker]

107. ...

[luv2fly]

2. So as not to start WW3 n/t

[elleng]

14. THANKS!

[Doodley]

3. You want to start a war between USA and Russia? That is what you are suggesting.

[Cracklin Charlie]

12. That convoy seems like a trap.

Trojan horse?

[mobeau69]

28. Been thinking the same thing. That or psyops.

[calimary]

65. Hmmm... that thought hadn't occurred to me.

HMMMMMM ... Important thing to bring up.

Maybe VITALLY, and URGENTLY important.

Perhaps if they're clogging those little country roads, that's the point? Preventing the locals from escaping (and throwing his own troops into the grinder in the process? It's been reported and commented on, repeatedly, that he's wily as hell, and cares not - who gets killed or maimed on the path toward his idea of domination. And that he's brutal.

[relayerbob]

4. Putin will retaliate with nukes.

Both against Ukraine and NATO.

[ForgedCrank]

25. Putin isn't

going to use nuclear weapons unless someone drops on on them first.
Doing so would be outright suicide and he knows that.
It would be raining nukes in Russia 20 minutes later.

[dumbcat]

32. You do realize, I hope,

that people commit outright suicide every single day? Putin is rumored to be mentally unstable, and global suicide may appeal to him.

[ForgedCrank]

35. If Putin is

mentally unstable, no one is going to follow his orders to push the button.

[dumbcat]

40. Yep, just like

no one followed Hitler's orders to drive people into ovens.

[ProfessorGAC]

80. Not An Apt Comparison

When those people followed those evil orders, the immediate consequences of their actions were an unknown.
What happens in retaliation to a nuclear first strike is not unknown.
Following those orders means destruction of all those order takers hold dear.
I don't think that comparison is valid.

[Samrob]

50. I have said that too and been roundly mocked. So I guess, Putin can do anything he wants

and 12 other nations with nukes will just have to sit back and take it! And it seems that no one inside or outside of Russia is trying to take Putin down.

[calimary]

81. I totally get that.

There's usually a few default positions I wind up falling into. And the one that's really yelling at me is "...and so we do nothing?"

And I guess I'm not sure where I'm aiming, with that one. First, before anything else, I guess we better define and determine the term "do nothing".

ARE we doing nothing?

I don't think so. It's not like we're just sitting around on our duffs watching TV. In my own little local "sphere of influence," our Indivisible group's Research & Writing Team recently started leaning in on the Ukraine crisis. The weekly results are sent out to 230 Indivisible folks, fellow activists, and friends. It started a week ago with a "thank you Biden" ask, urging our readers - residentially and/or employment-wise, in at least two counties - to call their Senators/Reps and tell them to stand with Our President in this crisis. And the "quote of the week" was
“Always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.”
· Elie Wiesel, Romanian-born American Jewish writer, professor, political
activist, Nobel Laureate, Holocaust survivor


This week we've got several Ukraine elements, starting right at the top: (In case anyone here needs/wants it.)

Notes for the New Week:
Want to support the people in Ukraine? Here's how you can help:
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/25/1082992947/ukraine-support-help
Updated February 25, 2022 9:55am ET/6:55am PT
https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/24/us/iyw-how-to-help-ukraine/index.html
Link in third paragraph: https://action.publicgood.com/campaign/


A Thought for Starters:
“The fight is here. I need ammunition, not a ride … I am here. We are not putting down arms. We will be defending our country, because our weapon is truth, and our truth is that this is our land, our country, our children, and we will defend all of this."
- President Volodymyr Zelenskyy of Ukraine, refusing to evacuate for his own safety as the Russian military tries to overrun his country, 2-26-22.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/26/europe/ukraine-zelensky-evacuation-intl/index.html


Undoubtedly there'll also be an ask, or two.



So at least there's that...

[Miguelito Loveless]

52. Not a test most people are willing to see taken

Soldiers are drilled and tested repeatedly to follow orders, which is why atrocities happen. Our own troops gunned down American college students at Kent State.

[ForgedCrank]

64. Well, what I said is

my own personal take on things. I obviously don't have ESP or something, but I'm pretty firm in my position on this one.
The Russians know that if they launch a nuke, they may as well be pointing it at themselves. That's pretty much the way it works.
I just don't see it happening.

[bdamomma]

101. there

are no winners in a nuclear war.

[jcgoldie]

33. you are assuming Putin is a rational actor

There has been some debate going back a year or more as to the current state of Putin's faculties.

[ForgedCrank]

66. I most certainly do

not assume Putin is rational. Rational people don't invade another country like this.
But rational and suicidal are two completely different things.
Putin enjoys being a tyrant. That's no longer any fun when your kingdom is a pile of smoldering and radioactive rubble.

[bdamomma]

102. Covid

eating his mind or what's left of it.

[relayerbob]

41. Lavrov reiterated that it WOULD result in nuclear war

They are cornered, weak and desperate, and nukes are the only tool they have left. Maybe they use them, maybe they don't. But it isn't worth the risk of killing, including probably laying waste to all of Ukraine, to find out. We have other tools at our disposal, and frankly at this point, Ukraine appears to be succeeding.

[Me.]

54. IMHO All Bets Are Off With Him

[mahina]

62. Fiona Hill disagrees with you.

[ForgedCrank]

68. I'm sure Fiona Hill

would be Ok with me having an opinion on the matter as well.

[mahina]

77. And others' evaluation of it

[calimary]

92. I think I'd want to take her seriously.

Russian invasion of Ukraine[edit]
On 28 February 2022, during the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Hill was asked by Politico's senior editor Maura Reynolds if she thought Putin would use Russia's nuclear weapons and responded by saying that "Putin is increasingly operating emotionally and likely to use all the weapons at his disposal, including nuclear ones." She stated, "Every time you think, 'No, [Putin] wouldn’t, would he?' Well, yes, he would”.[34]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiona_Hill_(presidential_advisor)

[mahina]

97. Yes.

Unimaginable but she definitely knows what she is talking about.

[Happy Hoosier]

71. Well, he certainly wants you THINK that.

But that's EXTREMELY unlikely. It would be a suicide move and he knows it.

[relayerbob]

78. See my answer above regarding Lavrov

They've been wargaming and exercising the use of battlefield nukes since 2000, and their current doctrine is that limited nuclear war is possible and winnable.

[Happy Hoosier]

79. Again. They certainly want us to think that.

Not saying it's not really true, but they have everything to gain from us believing that.

[question everything]

5. This is a decision that was made, not to delcare no fly zone so we will not bomb MIGS

However, I hope that we have provided the Ukrainians with top anti aircraft missiles and we can use drones.

[mahina]

63. A local friend who knows these things said

We have been sending a lot of powerful defensive weapons to Ukraine recently. Not just the last week. And that 6B ask from Congress is significant.
😊

[TheFarseer]

111. I'm afraid we won't pass that aid

Because someone has to grand stand about the border or the deficit or something.

[Claustrum]

6. Because if US or any NATO countries intervene, then it's likely to be world war III.

The red line for US and NATO countries are that if Putin attacks a NATO country, then we are bounded by the treaty to retaliate. Unfortunately, Ukraine is not a NATO country. There are other times we intervene with non-NATO countries but we weren't dealing with Putin/Russia then, which is more than willing to go nuclear.

Putin has been kind of baiting the US and NATO to intervene because his whole excuse is that the west and NATO is threatening Russia's security.

Personally, I am conflicted with the issue but I end up siding with "non-action" because I don't think anyone wants to test Putin's willingness to go nuclear.

[PortTack]

17. Exactly..we/NATO cannot be the aggressors. It will make things worse for all Ukrainians, possibly

The E.U. and possibly the North American continent

[Happy Hoosier]

72. The nuclear war fear-mongering is off the hook.

Who here really thinks the Russians are just itching to go nuclear? C'mon....

[Claustrum]

76. Maybe it's fear-mongering.

But I can never predict what crazy s*** Trump would do or say. I am not quite ready to test Putin either.

Though, on a larger point, what I believe matter little to nothing because it's our president, generals, intelligence community that makes the decision which I assume have way more information about the state of mind of Putin.

[Texaswitchy]

7. Putin must have one hell of a bomb shelter.

Any nukes he launches will be returned.

He is insane but I do not think he has a death wish.

[PortTack]

10. Actually he does, an underground palace with massive supplies

[Texaswitchy]

75. That would be all he had.

What would be left above ground.

No Russia left.

[bdamomma]

105. hmm....

get him go underground and take his polonium pills with him.

[AntiFascist]

55. Unfortunately, the more insane he acts, the more he gets away with what he's doing. n/t

[Texaswitchy]

74. Exactly

Like a crazy person running around naked.

No one wants to tackle them..

[onecaliberal]

8. I read somewhere it was bombed, not all of it.

I will try to find that.

[EYESORE 9001]

9. This is why foreign relations and tactical military operations are best left to professionals

Sheesh!

[Stinky The Clown]

18. The "sheesh" was totally unecessary.

What part of the OP's

Totally NON-military here. With no expertise whatsoever, and no one close to me who has served. As a civilian, I don't understand why America just sits and watches when the Ukrainians are - well - apparently doomed? When America is so well-equipped to do something effective to stop it?

was unclear?

[EYESORE 9001]

27. That's just, like, your opinion, man

as is my ‘sheesh.’ As is idle musing about igniting WWIII. You know what they say about opinions, and they all stink except for your own.

[Stinky The Clown]

29. :snort:

[jcgoldie]

23. Poster starts with "please help me understand..."

And thats your reply?

[AngryOldDem]

47. Snark abounds in this thread.

Ask an honest question, get a Dumpster fire.

[calimary]

96. You actually made me laugh at that, AngryOldDem!

Many thanks! Not a whole helluva lot to chuckle about right now, 'eh?

[Stinky The Clown]

11. Mary, you will get a variety of comments to your question but maybe not a direct answer

Right now we have no agreement in place for the defense of Ukraine. Yes, we are friendly and we are, in principle, allies. If the US or any NATO ally gets directly involved, that is aggression toward Russia. That could open the door for Russia to hit us back. And that could remain a skirmish OR it could quickly spiral put of control. Once out of control it is a real war. A war between Russia and the west could quickly involve nuclear weapons.

I am with you as to the desire to help UKR. Unfortunately, we cannot and Putin knows this and knows how to get away with aggression and even takeoff of sovereign country.

See my posture here:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216431117

[calimary]

30. There's just such a sense of helplessness - to have to watch while the Russians do this

to an innocent sovereign nation that DOES NOT belong to them.

Heck, I don't even know or have relatives or friends in (or from Ukraine), and this has broken my heart. I'm getting choked up (again) as I try to type the rest of this message.

[lapfog_1]

13. To "bomb" the convoy

you need to fly planes loaded with bombs to where the convoy is.

that airspace (long before your bombers get there) would be defended by
Russian air force. Now the Russian Air Force is not all that great, but it could defend against a set of bombers flying in from "unspecified" country. So... now you need to send fighters to fend off the Russian Air Force... and start shooting down Russian fighter jets. And don't forget the the ground to air missiles that likely accompany the convoy.

So... now you are in a shooting war with a nuclear armed nation. One that has a clearly insane dictator at the top. Utterly ruthless. Maybe he doesn't launch nuclear missiles at your country, maybe he does... whatever happens it's a fair bet that the nation (or nations) that do this will be in open warfare with Russia (and whatever allies Putin can dredge up).

So... willing to gamble that sanity prevails?

Or maybe, just maybe, we give the Ukrainian people a huge number of anti-tank missiles (like the javelin) and let them kill this convoy.

I like option 2 here. I just hope we can do it before the Russians take over the whole country and make it very difficult to arm the Ukrainian people.

[calimary]

15. Thank you guys for the input here.

That does help to explain things.

Not to any degree of satisfaction because it doesn't relieve the helplessness I feel. But the knowledge and explanations are good to have, at least.

Playing with fire - on a whole new level and different dimension.

[Budi]

16. Putin wants nothing more than to draw the US into his 'war'.

Every move he makes & threat he speaks is a poke at the US.

Its not only political, it is personal & to think Putin came 'this' close to destroying the US.
Trust me, the day Biden was finally sworn in, & every diabolical effort planned to keep that day from happening, was literally the Epic Failure of Vlademer Putin's lifetime.

Joe Biden is the LAST person Putin wanted to see as Leader of the USA.
Biden is well skilled in the long criminality of Putin's Russia.

Putin wants to shift the blame from himself to America.
He'd like the US to make a military mive so he can then point the finger at the big bad 'imperialist' America.

[TheRealNorth]

53. I think it is political too

He wants the Republicans back in charge, whom I think he has leverage over (at least for as long as we are still a Democracy).

Once Democracy is gone, the pee tapes and whatever dirt Martina Butina obtained or was obtained via the RNC hacks won't mean anything.

[bdamomma]

106. Very interesting

comment, and very well said. Thank god Biden is President.

[Budi]

109. We got so damned lucky didn't we. I hope Americans can see & appreciate that fact.

🍃💙

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

19. Because we want to avoid this

[48656c6c6f20]

20. Because we are afeered that a petty tyrant

Would start ww3. And in the meantime while we're afeered he waltzes across Europe burning and pillaging along his merry way. But we will prevent ww3 at all costs. Thank God.

[Hekate]

56. Unnecessary hyperbole. He's not "waltzing across Europe" because that would involve NATO & EU

He lusts for Ukraine, and as others have noted, he lusts to entangle the US. We’re not asceered of him, but we do have sober heads in our government now.

And as for being a “petty tyrant,” he’s a tyrant with a pile of nukes, and you have to ask why the hell did he decide to capture Chernobyl, which still glows in the dark and will forever? Dirty bombs?

[48656c6c6f20]

70. Unnecessary chatter.

But thanks anyway.

[Wingus Dingus]

21. We (and NATO, and other nations) have provided the means and the training to do it.

And hopefully are able to ship them an endless supply of firepower. This is the best we can do right now.

[Caliman73]

22. To get directly involved in a military conflict in which you are not a combatant....

or have a treaty or mutual defense pact with one of the combatant nations, would be tantamount to declaring war and significantly escalating the conflict.

There have been decades of debate about whether or not the United States should be "the world's policeman". We have recently ended very protracted wars where we "went in" based on some offense or perceived (false) threat. We spent trillions of dollars and thousands of lives fighting in two places with significantly weaker adversaries.

What is happening in Ukraine is horrible and needs to stop. The question is how willing should we be to put other, fellow citizens' children in harms way to do so.

Not to call you out or insult you, if your child was in the military, would you be prepared to sacrifice his/her life to intervene in Ukraine?

[Sherman A1]

24. If you have to ask that question you seriously have not been paying any attention

[bigtree]

26. good to ask questions

...furthers understanding.

Not sure why I need to say this.

[AngryOldDem]

31. I'll ask it rhetorically, then.

Why aren’t we bombing the hell out of that convoy?

Better?

It’s just a bit infuriating to see what it will take to finally get Vlad’s friends to turn on him, when civilians are getting injured and killed and their cities bombed to rubble.

OP’s question is a fair one, given the circumstances.

[Sherman A1]

39. You are then wanting to start an armed conflict between the US and Russia?

[AngryOldDem]

44. It may come to that.

Do you know for a fact Putin intends to stop at the Ukraine border?

[marie999]

51. No, but why start a bigger war if you don't have to?

[hamsterjill]

67. Fiona Hill

I’ll listen to her over anyone on a message board. She has serious concerns and that makes me pay attention.

[Sherman A1]

90. Do you know that he doesn't?

[calimary]

34. I HAVE been paying attention. Old retired journalist here who remains a confirmed news junkie.

MSNBC and CNN are on, nonstop, at our house (husband worked in media, too, and is also keeping close tabs on the breaking news). One of the things I did as a reporter/anchor/newswriter/editor (which I did for more than 20 years) was to ask questions. Especially if something I'm looking at, or confronting, did not/does not make sense.

And I'm STILL asking questions because (and whenever) I don't understand. I never retired from THAT.

[Sherman A1]

38. I can only repeat my post then

Of course relying on Cable Noise I would not consider a very good source, but even they who brush up against journalism from time to time have explained the situation.

[calimary]

48. There are credible voices on those outlets I named, which is why I never bother with Pox Noise.

And I read. Multiple reputable credible sources and outlets that I used back then and still turn to, now.

Friend, I ask when things don't make sense to me. Even when I think I know at least some of the answers.

We have expertise here that I sincerely felt might explain, enlighten, and which are accessible, without judgement or insult or snark (for the most part).

And it's been my experience that asking a question out loud usually gets some answers, or perspective, that also benefit others who may not have felt like asking, or perhaps didn't want to stick their necks out. I saw that dynamic in play ALL THE TIME.

I was based in L.A., and covered mostly if not all entertainment (depending on the job and the story). War MOVIES, for example. NOT the real thing. So I ask when I don't completely understand something.

[Sherman A1]

93. I worked 4+ decades in the Retail Sector

both grocery and hobby/games and dealt with local reporters during Desert Shield as my hobby store sold historically based wargames and when it was released "The Desert Shield Fact Book." I was simply amazed by how completely uniformed that they were beyond knowing which way to face the camera, that was a real education for me and taught me that reporters were not all they were cracked up to be.

Since that point I don't really place any value American Television News as it comes across as infotainment, drama TV designed to fill airtime between ads for drugs we never knew we needed. If I have a question I look towards sources with some level of expertise beyond a talking head.

[calimary]

95. That was one nice thing about being on the radio.

It didn't matter what you looked like, or which way you faced the camera. You just got to, and focused on, the business at hand.

[AngryOldDem]

46. It's a fair question.

We (the allies) should be doing more. Especially since civilians are now bearing the brunt.

Just got a push notice (from CNN or the BBC, icons look alike) that Biden is putting more sanctions on the oligarchs. They can wait this out longer than the civilians can.

[Spider Jerusalem]

36. WWIII, is why; Russia has nukes, US/NATO involvement would lead to bad things very quickly (n/t)

[MineralMan]

37. Because taking military action against that Russian convoy

would be an act of war against Russia. We're not going to do that, President Biden said. And that explains it. We're officially not involved in the defense of Ukraine. So, we cannot attack that convoy without going to war with Russia.

It's not going to happen.

[calimary]

58. And believe me, MM, I hear that, too.

I get that, too.

But following the story, seeing the footage, thinking A LOT about the civilians caught in this worldly Hell, seeing the footage of the women and children, the babies in makeshift nurseries in makeshift basement shelters, the sorrowful goodbyes at the border crossings when the men have to stay and fight and may likely face death...

It just throws me back to asking questions. The last time I was this emotionally caught up in a story was when John Lennon was shot. And everybody I worked with was my age and loved Lennon and the Beatles and had grown up with it, and many of them cried, too. I was just fortunate enough not to break down while live on the air. And THERE, AGAIN, was a situation wherein you cover it, you've got all the facts, you've got the names and faces and backgrounds and motivations, all those "who-what-where-when-why-how's" and you're STILL left with questions. The whole lot of us at that network were messed up on that one, to one degree or other, for more than a week.

[MineralMan]

73. Yes, of course. However, I don't remember this much angst

about families in Afghanistan after we left, frankly. Or in any African country that is in the middle of some nasty civil war. Instead, this is a European country. None of us speak the language, but the people are, well, white. So, we're shocked and horrified.

However, we do NOT want to get into a nuclear conflict with Russia. That would be an enormous mistake and we would all pay a heavy, heavy price if we did. So, we're sending arms to Ukraine, providing intelligence to Ukraine, and hoping that the Russians run out of money and the will to continue this stupid invasion.

Yes, there are many questions. Mine is: How do we get rid of Putin? He is the reason for this madness. That is the simplest answer that would accomplish everyone's goal. Short of that, though, we're going to just have to keep supporting the Ukrainians as best we can without going to war with Russia.

[calimary]

94. That's a big one among my questions.

"How (and where and when, and by whom) do we get rid of Putin? Because he's certainly not in a good place now, health-wise, by many accounts, and is expected to be (and has been) getting worse.

That may be the end game. The last resort.

Realistically, that may be the only thing left that can be done. The ONLY way out.

[hlthe2b]

42. NATO bombing on Russian territory full justification that Putin will use for WWIII .

Once they are on Ukrainian soil, Ukrainian AF can (hopefully) use planes donated to them from EU and other western countries to do so.

[JCMach1]

43. Because WW III is a lose/lose proposition

[RFCalifornia]

61. The only way to win is to not play

[Strelnikov_]

45. Because mankind has not yet invented 10,000,000 SPF sunblock n/t

[calimary]

49. Indeed.

[Emile]

57. I trust President Biden is doing the right thing!

The last thing the world needs is a nuclear war over some broken down convoy!

[calimary]

59. I trust him, too.

He didn't exactly spend all those decades taking naps.

[DenaliDemocrat]

60. Russia already more or less declared war on NATO

With their election interference.

I think NATO should donate drones, planes, armor, anti-tank rounds - everything short of troops.


Germany is almost there (I damned proud of what little German ancestry I have today). We should follow their lead and tell Putin - this is for screwing with our democracy. Now we screw with your kleptocracy!

[Happy Hoosier]

69. Because we are more afraid of them, than they are of us.

It boils down to that. We are most afraid of kicking off WWIII than they are. And they are taking full advantage of that.

[kiranon]

83. Agree. n/t

[David__77]

82. Same reason US didn't do that in Czechoslovakia in 1968,

Or Afghanistan in 1980. “Mutually assured destruction.”

[usonian]

84. As others have said, no treaty, and no desire to start WW3, but

I read that the vehicles in the convoy are there mostly because they can't navigate the mud.

Ukraine pilots know how to fly Mig fighters, so the donations of such fighters are helping.

A B-52 or A-10 would be literally foreign to them.

If anyone is interested, there was a B-52 flyby in 2020.
https://theaviationist.com/2020/09/04/three-u-s-b-52s-fly-mission-over-ukraines-sea-of-azov-coast-in-a-clear-show-of-force-toward-russia/



A-10's (low altitude fighters) would have to deal with radar and possible SAM missiles (surface to air)

I trust that President Biden is doing everything possible, even though it seems frustrating to us.

The U.S. is sharing intelligence with Ukraine
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216434450

And the economic sanctions against Russian oligarchs may have interesting ripple effects in the U.S. Watch certain campaign warchests collapse.

[calimary]

85. "Watch certain campaign warchests collapse."

HELL Yeah, with a Big WHOA NELLY and a Ha-Cha-Cha!

THAT will be MOST revealing!

[Texasgal]

86. Because, this isn't our war to fight.

We can offer support, but we cannot fight this war for Ukraine.

[Happy Hoosier]

87. The 1994 Budepest memorandum suggests otherwise

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-explainer-budapest-memorandum/25280502.html#:~:text=The%20%22Budapest%20Memorandum%20on%20Security%20Assurances%22%20is%20a,Russia%2C%20the%20United%20States%2C%20and%20the%20United%20Kingdom.

[BlackSkimmer]

88. Why aren't we banning Russian oil?

I keep seeing reports that we’re not. Why not?

I’m willing to pay more at the pump. Jeez, it’s the least we can do.

[Scrivener7]

89. This is a better question.

[BlackSkimmer]

91. Yes, I have to admit I wasn't aware of that, then saw a headline.

I also have a friend who is just apoplectic about this whole tragedy, and she was hollering about it today lol.

[markpkessinger]

99. The risks of engaging militarily are real, but what is the alternative?

Do NATO and the rest of the world stand by while Russia attacks the other 15 nuclear plants in Ukraine? Do we simply roll over whenever Putin or some other nuclear-armed despot decides to pursue imperial ambitions?

Adam Kinzinger (who is one of only two members of Congress calling for a no-fly zone) . made a very good point today. He acknowledged that the risks of establishing a no-fly zone were real. But then added that Americans are accustomed to having some relatively risk-free options available to them, and in this case, there simply are no risk-free options.

I just don't see how the world can afford to allow itself to be paralyzed by its fear of a nuclear conflagration. That only opens the door to further aggression by Putin, and paves the way for similar actions by China and God knows who else!

[calimary]

100. There certainly is that.

Any way you slice it, there are multiple no-good options. And a boatload of pros and cons to be weighed.

[Maeve]

103. Getting involved before Russia attacks a NATO country would unite the Russian people behind Putin

Right now, many if not most are against this mad adventure, but if we can be seen as interfering, the mood shifts.
Yeah and the WWIII bit, too

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

104. As far as I know Ukraine has been hitting it with Turkish drones

Probably why the going is so slow.

[LAS14]

108. I get why WE'RE not bombing it, but why aren't THEY bombing it?

A few days ago there were reports of airplanes lined up along the Polish and other countries' borders, waiting for Ukrainian pilots to come and get them. And tonight on the Newshour, Capehart was excited about Ukrainian hand held weapons taking pot shots at the convoy.

I wish we'd get more news about it.

[calimary]

110. Lawrence O'Donnell provided some VERY logical and convincing arguments tonight (Friday, 3/4/22)

From my on-the-fly scribbled notes:

"The only way to enforce a "no fly zone" is to make it a war zone."

"The only way to make it worse is if the U.S got into a shooting war with the Russians."

"No one wold feel like they won."

And another viewing of the movie "Fail Safe" was recommended.

Fail Safe is a 1964 Cold War thriller film directed by Sidney Lumet, based on the 1962 novel of the same name by Eugene Burdick and Harvey Wheeler. The film follows a crisis caused by a critical error that sends a group of U.S. bombers to destroy Moscow, and the ensuing attempts to stop the bomber group before it can deploy a nuclear first strike. The film features performances by actors Henry Fonda, Dan O'Herlihy, Walter Matthau, Frank Overton, Larry Hagman, Fritz Weaver, Dana Elcar, Dom DeLuise and Sorrell Booke.

In 2000, the novel was adapted again as a televised play starring George Clooney, Richard Dreyfuss and Noah Wyle, and broadcast live in black and white on CBS.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fail_Safe_(1964_film)

Tom Nichols, writing in The Atlantic, ( "Stay Calm, America" )
"...the only way Putin can save himself from his own fiasco is to bait the West into an attack. Nothing would help him more, at home or abroad, than if the United States or any other NATO country where to enter direct hostilities with Russian forces.
Putin would then use the conflict to rally his people and threaten conventional and nuclear attacks against NATO. He would become a hero at home, and Ukraine would be forgotten."
Stay Calm, America
Putin’s violence may still get worse. But Americans shouldn’t root for a dangerous escalation of hostilities.
By Tom Nichols
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/stay-calm-and-dont-advocate-war-against-putin/624169/

I want, and need, to hear ALL the arguments that there are - in favor of restraint. Reminders like that will help my mind, my reasoning, my understanding, and my conscience. And I appreciate, DEEPLY-DEEPLY-DEEPLY, all the input in this thread.

Smart, level-headed people post here. Fortunately, cooler heads prevail here, too.