To any that say Ukraine is not "really" our ally, YOU ARE WRONG.

[bluewater]

Someone actually said to me in a thread here on DU that Ukraine was "not really" our ally and hence we are under no moral obligation to intervene directly militarily to stop the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Well, read this:

Press release
UK signs agreement to support enhancement of Ukrainian naval capabilities

In a trilateral agreement signed onboard HMS Defender, which was in Odesa as part of the Carrier Strike Group deployment, the UK, Ukraine and industry will collaborate to boost Ukraine’s naval capabilities.

From:
Ministry of Defence and Jeremy Quin MP
Published
23 June 2021

Defence Minister Jeremy Quin and Ukrainian Deputy Defence Minister Oleksandr Myroniuk sign the MOI © Crown Copyright

Minister for Defence Procurement Jeremy Quin and First Sea Lord Admiral Sir Tony Radakin were joined by Deputy Minister of Defence of Ukraine, Oleksandr Myroniuk and industry representative David Lockwood from Babcock on the Type 45 Destroyer, where the Memorandum of Implementation (MOI) was signed.

Building on the agreement signed on HMS Prince of Wales in October 2020, the two nations and their industrial partners will Ukrainian naval capabilities enhancement projects (UNCEP) forward.

These projects will include; the introduction of new capabilities through the delivery of new naval platforms and defensive shipborne armaments, the training of Ukrainian Navy personnel, the creation of new naval bases, and the purchase of two Sandown class mine countermeasure vessels.

Signing the MOI on behalf of the UK, Minister for Defence Procurement Jeremy Quin said:
The UK and Ukraine have a close defence relationship, and we continue to strengthen this partnership to help deter shared threats.

I am delighted that British and Ukrainian industry will work together on these projects, which will provide world-leading capabilities and provide opportunities for both our nations to boost our shipbuilding enterprises.

Babcock International will lead British and Ukrainian industrial partners to assist the Ukrainian Ministry of Defence in delivering these projects, with funding made available by UK Export Finance (UKEF).

The Ukrainian Ministry of Defence said:
Ukraine and the UK are good friends and allies. Today’s Memorandum gives a new impetus to our co-operation in naval industry and will facilitate further development of the Ukrainian Navy. We appreciate the British support and value your experience.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-signs-agreement-to-support-enhancement-of-ukrainian-naval-capabilities

That's an official press release from the UK government from June of 2021, that's eight months ago.

EDIT: The US has made similar military commitments and has stated unequivocally that Ukraine is indeed our ally too.

U.S. Department of State

U.S. Security Cooperation With Ukraine

BUREAU OF POLITICAL-MILITARY AFFAIRS

JANUARY 20, 2022

Ukraine is a key regional strategic partner that has undertaken significant efforts to reform its military and increase its interoperability with NATO. Our policy is centered on supporting Ukraine as it advances reforms to strengthen democratic institutions, fight corruption, and promote conditions for economic growth and competition. The United States has offered further support to Ukraine in response to Russia’s aggression in eastern Ukraine and its occupation following the unlawful seizure of Crimea. The United States does not, and will not ever, recognize Russia’s attempted annexation of Crimea, and continues to work with our partners to seek a diplomatic solution to the Russia-instigated conflict in eastern Ukraine.

The United States remains dedicated to assisting Ukraine to advance its Euro-Atlantic aspirations in support of a secure, prosperous, democratic, and free Ukraine. The U.S.-Ukraine Charter on Strategic Partnership highlights the importance of the bilateral relationship and the continued commitment of the United States to support enhanced engagement between NATO and Ukraine. Additionally, Ukraine has undertaken significant efforts to reform and modernize its defense sector in line with NATO principles and standards. The United States and its Allies have established a Multinational Joint Commission and Joint Multinational Training Group to coordinate international efforts and help build Ukraine’s defense capacity to deter further Russian aggression.

Since 2014, ​the U.S. Departments of State and Defense have committed over $2.7 billion in training and equipment to help Ukraine preserve its territorial integrity, secure its borders, and improve interoperability with NATO. This includes $721 million in State Department-funded Foreign Military Financing (FMF) and $1.35 billion under DoD’s Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative. Ukraine also received about $19.7 million in IMET assistance between 2014 and 2021 to support professional military education for approximately 370 junior, mid-level, and senior military officers at Department of Defense (DoD) schools in the United States. In December 2021, the President authorized a $200 million drawdown for the immediate transfer of DoD stocks to Ukraine. We are in close touch with our Ukrainian partners and NATO Allies to authorize and facilitate additional assistance to Ukraine, as well as employing all available security cooperation tools available to us.

https://www.state.gov/u-s-security-cooperation-with-ukraine/

Democratic Ukraine is indeed our ally and we should stand by them and directly support them in this, their hour of need.

[SoonerPride]

1. So I guess you are a British citizen?

Is that right?

[bluewater]

3. Don't need to be, read this official US State Department release

U.S. Department of State

U.S. Security Cooperation With Ukraine

BUREAU OF POLITICAL-MILITARY AFFAIRS

JANUARY 20, 2022

Ukraine is a key regional strategic partner that has undertaken significant efforts to reform its military and increase its interoperability with NATO. Our policy is centered on supporting Ukraine as it advances reforms to strengthen democratic institutions, fight corruption, and promote conditions for economic growth and competition. The United States has offered further support to Ukraine in response to Russia’s aggression in eastern Ukraine and its occupation following the unlawful seizure of Crimea. The United States does not, and will not ever, recognize Russia’s attempted annexation of Crimea, and continues to work with our partners to seek a diplomatic solution to the Russia-instigated conflict in eastern Ukraine.

The United States remains dedicated to assisting Ukraine to advance its Euro-Atlantic aspirations in support of a secure, prosperous, democratic, and free Ukraine. The U.S.-Ukraine Charter on Strategic Partnership highlights the importance of the bilateral relationship and the continued commitment of the United States to support enhanced engagement between NATO and Ukraine. Additionally, Ukraine has undertaken significant efforts to reform and modernize its defense sector in line with NATO principles and standards. The United States and its Allies have established a Multinational Joint Commission and Joint Multinational Training Group to coordinate international efforts and help build Ukraine’s defense capacity to deter further Russian aggression.

Since 2014, ​the U.S. Departments of State and Defense have committed over $2.7 billion in training and equipment to help Ukraine preserve its territorial integrity, secure its borders, and improve interoperability with NATO. This includes $721 million in State Department-funded Foreign Military Financing (FMF) and $1.35 billion under DoD’s Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative. Ukraine also received about $19.7 million in IMET assistance between 2014 and 2021 to support professional military education for approximately 370 junior, mid-level, and senior military officers at Department of Defense (DoD) schools in the United States. In December 2021, the President authorized a $200 million drawdown for the immediate transfer of DoD stocks to Ukraine. We are in close touch with our Ukrainian partners and NATO Allies to authorize and facilitate additional assistance to Ukraine, as well as employing all available security cooperation tools available to us.

https://www.state.gov/u-s-security-cooperation-with-ukraine/

So much for any clever word games trying to deny the fact that Ukraine is indeed a US ally too.

I will edit my OP to include this U.S. Department of state release.

[SoonerPride]

4. Ukraine is not a NATO member

The first post of this thread was about a UK pact.

Then you come up with a bland generic US statement of support for Ukraine.

Both which are all fine and well by themselves, but are not treaties.

The fact that we are friends with Ukraine is not the same thing as saying we are obligated to involve our troops in war on their behalf.

I seem to be missing something here.

[bluewater]

5. "a bland generic US statement of support for Ukraine"

That's quite some bland 2.7 BILLION DOLLAR of military aid bland statement of support.

And it's important to remember that we support allies that ARE NOT NATO MEMBERS too, Israel and Taiwan to just name two.

"I seem to be missing something here."

Indeed!

You seem to have missed this:

U.S. security assistance has enhanced the readiness, command and control, and situational awareness of Ukrainian forces through the provision of both non-lethal and lethal defensive items. This includes High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicles, tactical Unmanned Aerial Vehicles, secure communications, satellite imagery and analysis support, counter-battery radars, night vision devices and thermal scopes, sniper rifles, and equipment to support military medical treatment and combat evacuation procedures. We have also provided advisory services to reduce corruption and increase transparency within the Ministry of Defense and to help develop a modern combat training center.

More recently, our security assistance has focused on enhancing Ukraine’s capacity to defend its territorial waters. In June 2020, the U.S. Government notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Ukraine of up to sixteen Mark VI patrol boats worth an estimated $600 million. The first tranche of these is being procured with FMF, while USAI will separately fund an additional two. An initial eight Mark VIs are expected join five former U.S. Coast Guard Island-class patrol craft, which are being provided through the Excess Defense Articles (EDA) program and refurbished with a combination of Ukrainian national funds and FMF. Together, these Mark VI and Island-class patrol boats will constitute a small ‘mosquito fleet’ of armed patrol craft that is capable of countering potential Russian aggression in Ukrainian territorial waters. The patrol boats will also enable Ukraine’s integration into a regional Black Sea Maritime Domain Awareness program, to which the United States has contributed $142 million in FMF.

[SoonerPride]

9. No, what I am missing is what is the point of your rant?

That we should intercede in the war on behalf of Ukraine?

I am missing your point.

What is it?

[maxsolomon]

2. No one is saying that. We are saying that Ukraine is not in NATO.

We are obligated to defend nations in NATO.

We are providing weapons.

[bluewater]

6. I realize that not everyone is, but some are.

Best regards.

[marked50]

7. Treaties are one thing to define "ally" but morality and intents have just as much weight to

call someone and "ally".

[bluewater]

8. And actual actions in terms of money and previous direct assistance.

Those also clearly indicate who our allies are.

Best regards,

[Gore1FL]

10. We don't have a mutual defensive alliance with them.

We can parse the word "ally" any way we want, beyond that.

[Caliman73]

11. Ally versus Alliance (Treaty)

Yes we would consider Ukraine an ally with regards to goals for future, formalized relations with the nation. We do support Ukraine and are sending weaponry and had been training them in the use of said weaponry.

There is a difference between ally and having an Alliance such as NATO or other mutual defense treaties. Attacking Poland or Germany, or France, because of article 5 of the NATO agreement is the same as attacking The United States. One of the reasons people got so mad at France during Iraqi Freedom is that some felt that France not going in on the invasion of Iraq was breaking Article 5. I say, "Not so" because Iraq did not attack the United States. Independently acting terrorists did so France was under no obligation to invade a country that did not attack the US on 9/11.

I digress. We are allies of Ukraine but we are not in a formal, mutual defense alliance with Ukraine. Therefore, while the situation is horrible, we have to weigh the consequences of our direct intervention and killing of Russian troops would mean for the escalation of the conflict. Any country that has a mutual defense treaty with Russia, would then have to attack the United States, which would then mean that NATO would have to attack those countries and then there we are, in a world war.

[bluewater]

12. We don't have a defense treaty with Israel either, correct?

Nor Taiwan, right?

Should they also expect us to equivocate if and when they are invaded?

[Caliman73]

14. No we do not. Which is why we have never committed direct support to either, when attacked.

Taiwan is the mystery. The presence of our Navy in the area has been a deterrent as has the MUCH more capable Taiwanese defensive system (much of which is home grown).

We certainly sell a lot of weapons to Israel but we have no military presence there and we have not sent anything other than weapons and money, even when Syria and Jordan have made incursions.

We would not equivocate if they were invaded, but we would likely not send our troops to directly fight Chinese troops in the case of Taiwan, nor any country that invaded Israel.

In fact, there is some, not insignificant opinion that we might not even hit China with as tough a tranche of sanctions as we have Russia, because hitting China would cripple us and the rest of the world economy.

I understand that you think we should be directly involved in Ukraine, but the world is much more complicated than thinking that we could just go in, blast out a bunch of tanks, planes, and soldiers, and just be done with it. Like I said in my response, we hit Russia, then anyone allied with Russia hits us, then NATO has to hit them, then we are in WWIII as as the saying goes, "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

[bluewater]

15. "We would not equivocate if they were invaded, but..."

Full stop. That sounds exactly like an equivocation, doesn't it?




So, basically, yes, we will equivocate and put a finger up to test the winds?
We won't commit our full support to our non-NATO allies Israel or Taiwan either.

OK. That's clear then.

I am sure that our holding back while Russia invades and subjugates our non-NATO ally Ukraine will be sufficiently illustrative to both Israel and Taiwan and they will prepare accordingly and not count on our full support either.

Thanks for the conversation.

[Caliman73]

16. Okay. Please define "equivocation". Also, define "full support".

In order to have a clear conversation, we need to agree on what we are talking about.


Are you saying that anything other than direct attack on Russian troops and hardware by US armed forces is "equivocation"?

Are you saying that "full support" to Israel and Taiwan means direct military attack on whatever nations (likely Iran or Syria) or on China?

I just want to be clear what you are advocating for.

[bluewater]

17. The definition of equivocate includes "avoid committing oneself"

And that is exactly what you stated our policy is if allies without defense treaties are invaded.

"We are allies of Ukraine but we are not in a formal, mutual defense alliance with Ukraine. Therefore, while the situation is horrible, we have to weigh the consequences of our direct intervention..."

Sorry, that's textbook equivocation. But that is fine, we are not bound by the black and white letter of a defense treaty after all, right?



Again, thanks for the conversation but I think you have made your point clear that unless there is a defense treaty in place, the US is not under any firm obligation to fully commit to the defense of any ally.

You have made your distinction between an ally and an alliance quite clear and I am just pointing out how that would also apply to other allies without explicit defense treaties in place.

Best regards and enjoy your evening, dinner is on the table here.

[Happy Hoosier]

13. We have a moral obligation to Ukraine

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-explainer-budapest-memorandum/25280502.html#:~:text=The%20%22Budapest%20Memorandum%20on%20Security%20Assurances%22%20is%20a,Russia%2C%20the%20United%20States%2C%20and%20the%20United%20Kingdom.