Zelensky: 'The end of the world has arrived'

[CaptainTruth]

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on Thursday issued a dire appeal for help as Russia's attacks across the country intensified.

"The end of the world has arrived," Zelensky said during a televised news conference in Kyiv.

He appealed to Western leaders who have resisted calls to set up a no-fly zone over Ukraine. "If you do not have the power to close the skies, then give me planes," Zelensky said.

The Ukrainian leader also called for direct negotiations with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

[link:https://www.aol.com/news/zelensky-end-world-arrived-180049557.html|]

[Karadeniz]

1. Dear NATO, Please consult your former Supreme Commander, Wesley Clark.

[elleng]

6. YES!

[dchill]

62. He's got MY attention!

[Karadeniz]

68. They've attacked a nuclear power plant now. Chris Hayes mentioned some towns flattened by

Putin elsewhere as evidence of Putin's MO. I didn't recognize them. But then he mentioned that Putin and the Syrian dictator had teamed up to wreak destruction in Syria and we all saw the barbarity done there. Remember how Trump did NOTHING to help the Syrians and gave Putin a slap on the wrist when forced to. And Trump betrayed the Kurds.

Evil doers cannot be left to commit atrocities. Putin will not be stopped by sanctions. He'll just accelerate the destruction. He thinks the sanctions will be lifted once the fighting stops. We could tie sanction lifting to Putin being removed or turned over to the ICC.

Declare Putin a war criminal. Declare a no fly zone. Russia doesn't own Ukrainian air space. Find a way to fly in planes, arms, supplies.
We've learned by now that soft soap doesn't cut it.

Can you tell I'm mad ???????

[dchill]

69. You mad, bro?

[Karadeniz]

71. The nuclear meltdown doesn't even compare to my frustration level !!!!!!!!!!

[madaboutharry]

2. My admiration for this man increases by the minute.

"He appealed to Western leaders who have resisted calls to set up a no-fly zone over Ukraine. "If you do not have the power to close the skies, then give me planes," Zelensky said."

[markpkessinger]

3. I am having an increasingly hard time understsanding how we can sit by and watch this happen ...

. . . The sanctions are unlikely to stop Putin at this point. And while I understand the nuclear worries, if this is allowed to stand, what's next? How long does the world allow its fear of nuclear conflict to render it helpless in the face of such naked aggression?

And what happens when a similarly deranged despot, with similar imperial designs, sits at the helm of one of the other nuclear powers (including us, which possibility, in the wake of the Trump presidency, cannot be discounted).

How long does the world simply roll over, hoping against hope that sanctions will be sufficient to stop the devastation?

in my 60 years, I've seen this country undertake military action on some pretty ridiculous pretexts. What does it say about us if we can just sit by and watch this happen?

[bluewater]

7. Well said.

[Jarqui]

9. Me too.

I've been tempted to fight. I'm too old and broken.

How this can happen in front of our eyes ... it is so cruel and awful.

The thing is, what happens next when Putin takes Ukraine?
Why should he stop?
Why should China?

Eventually, you have to stand up to a bully.

[NJCher]

31. even China

is questioning its relationship with Russia.

That was the headline that came across my iPad just a short time ago. WSJ source.

China's not all in on this a@#$#hole either.

[Jarqui]

34. I think China is hedging on how to play it ...nt

[NJCher]

73. have you seen this?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216436635

[Jarqui]

74. There's a lot more to China than one bank

Hopefully, there's more to come but I'm not confident in that

[hamsterjill]

13. My thoughts exactly.

I just keep hoping that the US is helping more than we are being told. But the threat of Putin using nuclear force or starting WWIII cannot be used forever, and it cannot be allowed to keep us from doing what’s right.

[PortTack]

15. I don't think it's the threat of nuclear weapons that keeps us on the sidelines

President Biden has said he didn’t think Putin would use nuclear weapons.

We/NATO have to be a totally unified front, otherwise we risk a fracture which could be devastating. Calls for military intervention are not coming. We have the consensus of the world that Putin is the aggressor, and he is. We need that consensus. If we act and it triggers WWIII there will be even broader devastation and death across the European continent.

Do I like it, of course not. Do I think we should act...I wish we could it’s horrifying. This is just me, but I have to trust the Biden administration and our NATO allies

[Brainfodder]

22. Yup and he (Putin) can not possibly survive this when all is said and done?

[Bettie]

24. I'm with you on this

Well said.

[Lonestarblue]

28. My thoughts exactly. You cannot appease a madman.

And it’s not as if the West is without its own threat of nuclear weapons. It’s perhaps playing Russian roulette to take the risk that the actual people with their fingers on the nuclear buttons would fire them. Do they really want to obey the orders of a madman and ensure mutual destruction? A definite risk, but the Ukrainians need our help today and every day after because sanctions will eventually work but the Ukrainians will be dead.

[58Sunliner]

29. Thank you.

[AngryOldDem]

45. I said that in another thread

Someone asked that elsewhere and was met with pretty much sarcasm. “Because, silly, it would start WWIII!” I chimed in and got the same snark. Guess what? WWIII has already started.

Sanctions are not enough at this point. We are standing by and watching a people die horrible, needless deaths.

Putin will most likely not stop at the border. And, BTW, what was that promise the West made when Ukraine gave up its nukes?

Shameful betrayal.

[JoanofArgh]

53. Agree.

[iluvtennis]

61. +++ agree. NATO needs to step in. n/t

[Evolve Dammit]

64. Could not agree more. Thank you.

[calimary]

65. We were just kicking this around, over here:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216434197

I was asking why there's been no attempt to bomb (or otherwise take out) that Russian convoy slowly on its way in. Lots of posts, many takes on the situation.

It's damn hard to be in a position where all one can realistically do is try to keep up with the breaking news and the warfare. The latest, btw - being a fire that broke out at a big nuclear power plant over there, after Russian assault. Jim Sciutto on CNN is speculating about the possibility that this would be one way to cripple the power grids in Ukraine.

Wondering which of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse this one is...

[FakeNoose]

4. Well the guy has a point

Can't we just spot him a few war planes (and Stingers) now and settle up the bill later?

[Slammer]

27. stingers

Last edited Thu Mar 3, 2022, 08:18 PM - Edit history (3)

The US is sending him Stingers. Yesterday in the news:

"The United States has delivered hundreds of stinger missiles to Ukraine this week, including more than 200 on Monday, according to two Congressional officials briefed on the deliveries." - NBC News

====

Before the war started, Ukraine had these fighter planes in its air force:

37 MiG-29s
12 Su-24s
17 Su-25s
32 Su-27s

So that's 98 total fighters if I did the math right in my head. (That number includes trainer aircraft that aren't necessarily fully armed.)

The EU just gave them another 70 fighters with Ukraine was taking delivery of those on Tuesday.

16 MiG-29s from Bulgaria and 14 Su-25s (it's a close air support craft aka as Frogfoot)

12 MiG-29s from Slovakia

28 MiG-29 from Poland

Going from 98 fighters to 168 is already a huge increase. And Ukraine likely has pilots for all of them after calling up their reserves and all former pilots under the age of 60 being called back into service.

https://www.facebook.com/kpszsu/posts/324628826371739



Prior to that delivery of aircraft, the EU had provided a large amount of R-73 missiles to Ukraine (likely from Poland). That's a short-range, heat-guided air-to-air missile, equivalent to the U.S. AIM-9 Sidewinder and European IRIS-T. It's designed to be used on the MiG-29.

https://www.aeroflap.com.br/uniao-europeia-fornecera-avioes-de-caca-para-a-ucrania/


Of the EU nations, Romania is the only one I know of which had MiG-29s and hasn't given any over to the Ukrainians. But they don't have any listed as being in active service so they likely scrapped them or sold them since the fall of the USSR.

If North Korea or India came out in favor of Ukraine, they have MiG-29s they could give over.

Once you get outside the MiG-29, Ukrainian pilots don't have any experience operating them and Ukraine doesn't necessarily have ammunition to use with them.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

76. Good post.

Thanks.

[elleng]

5. "If you do not have the power to close the skies, then give me planes,"

[Irish_Dem]

8. Zelensky knows there is no real help coming to save his country.

There has been a lot of argument around the world pro and con.

But the bottom line is that Putin will take Ukraine and Zelensky knows it.

The only thing he can do is negotiate the end game.

I pray no harm comes to him.

[PortTack]

10. Russia may take Ukraine, they will not be able to hold it.

[Irish_Dem]

12. They can hold it if they go brutal terror: murder and jail.

Like Hitler held large territories across Europe.

Line up people and execute them.
Jail almost everyone.

You do get compliance that way.

[PortTack]

16. See post #14 for a qualified expert's opinion

[Irish_Dem]

17. That makes the most sense. But even the experts don't know what Putin will do.

Putin is not making much sense these days.

Thank goodness we don't have to be experts to post on DU!

[PortTack]

49. Agree

Here’s another really good take on the situation

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1017717229

[Irish_Dem]

56. Thanks will take a look.

[Irish_Dem]

55. The problem with Vindman is that he is a military man.

Right now, Putin is being driven by his own psychology.
Not military tactics.

So psychologists are probably better experts.
Which happens to be my area of expertise.

[paleotn]

67. Umm...this IS kind of his thing, no?

Psychology or not, wars are run on military tactics and strategy. Anything less is just a madman ranting at the walls. Fact is he doesn't possess the combat power to take Ukraine, much less hold it. Morale in the Russian military is worse than it normally is. Normal being just a notch or two above zero. Russia is a paper tiger militarily. We've known that for decades. Take away their ICBMs and SLBMs and they're impudent. Their military hardware is crap. Their doctrine and tactics are juvenile and ineffective. They really haven't been good at this war thing since they stormed the Reichstag in '45.

To ward off the embarrassment of failure, he very well might destroy what he now realizes he can't conquer. A very old tactic that predates Putin by several millennia. His own power structure may turn on him in the old Russian manner before all that happens. The later is my prediction. "Here's a Makarov, Vlad. Save us the paperwork."

[gab13by13]

30. Listen to what Putin says,

Putin said he is going to rid Ukraine of the neo-Nazis which means that Putin plans on Killing Zalenskyy.

[Irish_Dem]

36. Yes I know this is a very high probability.

I have known it from day one.

But not a popular thing to post.

The only problem for Putin is that Zelensky is now a world hero, Putin would be hated even more than he already is if he kills Zelensky. And Putin wants the sanctions lifted I assume so has to pretend to have a bit of humanity?

Putin could also let Zelensky live in return for complete surrender of himself and country.

But the current Putin is hard to predict and would most likely kill everyone he can. He wants to terrorize the world and control the West with fear and strength.

And Zelensky alive would always be a thorn in his side.

[chowder66]

11. Members of NATO and the European Union will not be sending fighter jets to Ukraine

snip....

March 1 (UPI) -- Members of NATO and the European Union will not be sending fighter jets to Ukraine, they said Tuesday.

This decision comes after EU security chief Josep Borrell said Sunday that the EU brokered a deal allowing its members to transfer the planes to Ukraine as it defends itself against the Russian invasion.

Borrell then backtracked slightly Monday, saying that any help would come directly from individual countries and not from the EU itself. He mentioned Slovakia, Bulgaria and Poland as countries that would supply the Russian-made aircraft.

However, all three countries said separately Tuesday they would not be sending aircraft. Doing so would represent an escalation, drawing the EU or NATO into the conflict.

.....

Polish President Andrej Duda said after a NATO press conference, "We are not sending any jets to Ukraine because that would open a military interference in the Ukrainian conflict. We are not joining that conflict. NATO is not a party to that conflict."


Lots more in the article.....

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2022/03/01/Ukraine-Canada-Australia-Ukraine-weapons/6101646113975/

[CrackityJones75]

60. Well if radiation starts drifting into their countries

Well if radiation starts drifting into their countries things may change in a real hurry.

[chowder66]

66. I think ultimately nothing is off the table depending on what Putin does.

[Deminpenn]

14. Vindman's prognosis

Vindman was on with Hayes or Maddow last night. He gave his take on how the invasion will play out. He believes Putin knows he can't hold Ukraine because the Ukrainiams will never accept whatever puppet govt Putin might install. Therefore Putin will resort to destroying as much of it as he can, then leave, perhaps without even negotiations - perhaps by declaring that Russia has achieved its objectives and no longer needs to be in Ukraine.

[Wingus Dingus]

18. I think Putin wants regime change and control of Kyiv--

his ego will not allow Zelensky to continue on as leader. The country might be split in two. It's hard to see how Putin thinks he can control ALL of Ukraine, all the way to the Polish border--it will be nonstop strife.

[Deminpenn]

20. No doubt Putins wants Ukraine back in Russia's orbit

but the Ukrainians will never accept a puppet government regardless of what happens to Zelensky. It's almost like a spurned jealous lover, "if I can't have you, then no one can". That's wjy Putin will destroy as much as he can, like in a frustrated rage, before leaving.

[Irish_Dem]

23. Yes I agree. This means Putin is going to be in a bind.

He wants regime change, and to take over Ukraine.
He also probably wants to humiliate Zelensky in retaliation for Zelensky's PR campaign against him. And for standing up to him. Putin might make an example of Zelensky???

But then Putin must then try to hold Ukraine, and it would take brutal tactics to do so. If he wants the sanctions lifted at some point he has to show some compassion?

Vindman is a military man, not a psychologist. And I think Putin's psychology is driving his behavior right now.

[gab13by13]

32. Listen to what Putin said,

Putin said he is going to rid Ukraine of the neo-Nazis which means that Putin is planning on killing Zalenskyy.

Putin is a sociopath.

[Irish_Dem]

37. Yes but he used to be a high functioning sociopath.

He used to know exactly far he could go and still retain his power.

But I agree, now he is just operating on pure rage, terror and a show of raw strength.

And as I said on another post to you, Zelensky alive will always be a thorn in his side.

[monkeyman1]

57. somsbody might get ol'poot'y first !! I see that a very good possibility???

[Wingus Dingus]

39. Yes, I don't believe military strategy, especially western military strategy,

is all that useful in trying to figure out Putin's thinking or his next moves. He is not doing what's rational, so logic doesn't seem to enter into it.

[Irish_Dem]

40. I know the CIA has a team of psychologists. The military should be listening to them

[Irish_Dem]

19. Putin has too many control issues to just walk out?

He also wants to humiliate Zelensky.

[Deminpenn]

21. Just passing along what I recall Vindman said last

night.

[Irish_Dem]

26. My comments were directed elsewhere, sorry.

Sorry for the confusion.

I appreciate your post, and it is good information!

Edit to add, I deleted part of the post meant for someone else!

[Sapient Donkey]

70. That seems plausible

If that happens, is there anything that would keep Ukraine from joining NATO and thus totally doing the opposite of what he was seeking to achieve? I would imagine in such a scenario Ukraine would receive massive assistance to rebuild its cities, industry, and military. I've seen many say that this war has united Ukrainians and really solidified the idea of Ukrainian identity. There is an Al Jazeera report interviewing people in the separatist regions who seem appalled at Putin's actions. Not sure how common that is, but there is at least some of that. While Ukraine gets rebuilt, the Russian economy will continue to struggle and the people will blame Putin. He also has pushed countries like Sweden and Finland even closer to NATO, and has only gave more justification for its existence.

But really, what other options does Putin have? Try to occupy Ukraine while fighting a strong well supported insurgency? The US military had a hard time with a marginalized insurgency with relatively little support except from some regional powers. Russia is going up against an insurgency backed by global powers.

I suppose there are always nukes. I mean, that's what I do when I'm losing and getting bored in Civilization.

[Deminpenn]

75. Russia would have to keep occupation forces in Ukraine

to have some semblance of control. Vindman didn't think Russia has the manpower to do that. It was reported a, presumably, Ukrainian sniper just killed a Russian 3 star general a day or so ago. That is what an occupying force would face and they wouldn't have 75% of Russia's entire military backing them up.

Further, after destroying it, Russia would have to rebuild Ukraine, a pretty hard financial task given the sanctions.

[bluestarone]

25. I know Ukraine is NOT a member of NATO.

TWO things need to be addressed, i feel. 1) If i'm correct the US. promised to protect the UKRAINE IF they gave up Nuclear weapons! 2) Russia promised NOT to invade the Ukraine if they gave up Nuclear weapons. I DO NOT have the answer to russias invasion, BUT It's hard to sit here and see a free nation get DESTROYED! I would like to see these TWO promises be discussed more here.

[Lonestarblue]

33. Was there a specific agreement for the US to protect Ukraine after they gave up nuclear weapons?

If so, we are obligated to come to their aid. We are certainly not protecting them now. Even promises like that should be honored.

Edited to add: I just did a quick search on the agreement and found this (from the Intercept). The UK and the US are obligated to come to Ukraine’s defense. Putin needs to be reminded that Russia also signed an agreement not to attack Ukraine. The US should send the planes Zelensky asked for immediately. We are violating our own agreement.

“The betrayal of Ukrainians in particular cannot be understated. In 1994, the Ukrainian government signed a memorandum that brought its country into the global Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty while formally relinquishing its status as a nuclear state. The text of that agreement stated that in exchange for the step, the “Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.”

[bluestarone]

38. Correct! You see

THIS is the problem I have. Promise's made should be promises kept? THIS is a tough one.

[Lonestarblue]

52. By not stopping Putin militarily, the West is allowing him to take even more countries.

Just as a took Crimea. Is Moldova next? The Baltic states? The threat of nuclear weapons use is a tough issue. But we made an agreement that we are not honoring. Neither is the UK. And the result will be Putin’s plan to raze Ukrainian cities and its citizens to the ground. They have humiliated him, and he will not stop until there is nothing left. Then he’ll leave and say Russia is now safe from at attack that never existed.

[AngryOldDem]

50. Zelenskyy made that point before this carnage started.

He also said, “I need help, not an Uber.”

For us to suggest to him that he flee as the war was starting was just beyond words. Beyond insult.

[Lonestarblue]

54. I just sent an email to the White House reminding them of our obligation.

Anyone who feels as I do that we should honor our agreement to protect Ukraine could also email the WH and ask why we are not doing what we promised. I will email Sec. Of Sate Blinken as well. It may do not good, but our leaders need to know that many of us want that agreement honored. I’m no suggesting boots on the ground but significant air support for Ukraines and UEVs to attack Russian tanks—a suggestion Colonel Vindman made several days ago. Unmanned drones have been used in several areas, like Syria when we were not formally at war with them. They should be used in Ukraine to wipe out tanks and supply trucks.

[AngryOldDem]

46. It's betrayal. Straight up.

Ukraine by all rights should be in NATO.

Goddamn — one paychopath holding the entire fucking world hostage.

[Warpy]

35. We (the west) might give him the planes

but the Ukrainians are going to have to fly them.

In fact, I do believe he has already been given fighter jets.

At this point, we can't be the ones to enforce a no fly zone. Having nuclear powers butting heads is a bad idea.

Putin lobs one tactical nuke, all bets are off.

[ffr]

42. Those fuckers Trump and McConnell have blood on their hands

The entire republican party does, all the way down to the fuckers voting and supporting these Russian red traitors and barbarians.

[Mr. Evil]

43. Putin won't stop until someone stops Putin.

I understand that NATO has rules of engagement but, we're dealing with a powermad psychopath that doesn't give a diddly damn about rules.

Here's an idea; why can't NATO add a new rule? Any developing democracy that pledges to join and is experiencing an unprovoked attack from a hostile nation can be protected. There, simple as that. If Ukraine does not receive help very soon it may cease to exist. Putin doesn't care about his own people. He sure as hell doesn't give a shit about sanctions. Praise for the Ukrainians for being tough and resilient is fine but, that will not help or save them.

Those in power that say they cherish decency, freedom and democracy need to step up.

[AngryOldDem]

48. This is unbearably tragic.

[RayStar]

51. Sad

What makes putin hate so much. Never satisfied.

[CrackityJones75]

59. The negotiation needs to be

The negotiation needs to be a bullet directly into Putin’s brain. I don’t like assassination but he needs to be taken out and now.

[niyad]

63. ao-hell still exists?

[Cognitive_Resonance]

72. Putin has nuclear blackmail on his agenda. Matter of time. nt