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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums"It's going to be worse than what the Russians had in Afghanistan"
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/04/russias-invasion-of-ukraine-is-baffling-military-analysts.htmlBegging to differ with Putins assessment (or propaganda) on Russian progress in the invasion, former CIA director Gen. David Petraeus, said this week that Putins war in Ukraine is going terribly for Russia, telling CNN on Wednesday that at the strategic level, he has essentially united most of the rest of the world ... And then on the battlefield, its going terribly.
He said Russia was stretched beyond its logistical and mechanical capabilities, its troops (some of whom are less experienced conscripts) likely to be extremely tired and inexperienced in the face of a determined opponent, as Ukraine is proving to be.
That point is agreed with by Col. Liam Collins, founding director of the Modern War Institute in New York, who said Thursday that Ukraines army, and thousands of volunteers who have stayed in Ukraine to fight to save their homeland, would continue to mount a staunch resistance in Ukraines capital, Kyiv.
Not only do the Russians have to fight through the Ukrainian forces that are there, they have to fight through all these armed volunteers that are just going to be conducting attacks on them the whole time, he told the BBCs The Briefing Room show, adding that Ukrainians were preparing to mount an insurgency against Russia.
Its going to be worse than what the Russians had in Afghanistan, thats what the Ukrainians are going to do, he added, alluding to the then Soviet Unions drawn-out, bloody, costly and unpopular invasion of Afghanistan in 1979 that lasted 10 years and led to the loss of around 15,000 Soviet soldiers.
gab13by13
(21,360 posts)in the meantime, Putin is going to reduce Ukraine to rubble, making areas unlivable. It also appears that Russia is getting closer to controlling the southern border which will shut off Ukraine's access to the sea. The only way to re-supply Ukraine will be through Poland.
Kaleva
(36,312 posts)Poland, Hungary, Slovakia and Romania
Tommymac
(7,263 posts)This is war. It is messy, dirty, confusing and does not lend itself well to immediate analysis.
Thousands will die. Tens of thousands will be injured. Ukraine's infrastructure will be devastated.
These are the price true Freedom demands when attacked.
Ukraine will continue to receive supplies via the Black Sea coast. It is simply too big to control every single river, stream, bay and harbor.
This is Putin's war and he is losing big time. But it will be a very long struggle if he continues in power.
No reason for pessimism, unless you count the M$M constant fear mongering and horse race mentality used to drive up ratings.
tavernier
(12,392 posts)They cant even move their tanks out of the mud in a circle.
AntiFascist
(12,792 posts)tavernier
(12,392 posts)Loose lips sink ships.
bucolic_frolic
(43,182 posts)Victor_c3
(3,557 posts)The Ukrainians are much better educated than Afghan fighters. Literacy rates in Afghanistan are atrocious. Giving modern and complex weapons to people who cant read an instruction manual or a repair manual limits how effective the weapon system can be deployed. The people of Ukraine wont have that problem.
Layzeebeaver
(1,624 posts)education level is not relevant.
How long it takes is dependent on the receptiveness of the student and the effectiveness of the instructor.
Kaleva
(36,312 posts)My initial training after boot camp lasted almost 1 1/2 years. BE&E, FT Phase 1, FT Phase 2, and then C school.
kiri
(794 posts)And Tucker.
Response to Victor_c3 (Reply #4)
Name removed Message auto-removed
COL Mustard
(5,906 posts)We were never able to really raise educational standards for most of the populace. I heard stories of Afghan soldiers not knowing their numbers. If you asked how many brothers Ali had (just making up a name) he couldn't tell you. He could name them all, but he couldn't tell you that he had seven. He also couldn't tell you that the medal in your avatar has a blue stripe in a red field. He had other ways of describing those colors, but not the traditional way.
Ukraine has (had) a high standard of living and an educated population who are clearly willing to fight for their country and their freedom. This will be hugely different from Afghanistan.
Collimator
(1,639 posts)Many people do not stop to think about the sorts of information/education that they have which allows them to move effectively through the world.
In the movie, Glory, there was one young man in the newly formed Black regiment who was a gifted shot with a rifle. But when it came time to learn how to march, he was hampered because he didn't know his left from his right. That seems like such basic knowledge, but if no one ever explains, the person kept in ignorance is held back in ways that are hard to fathom.
Something as simple as unpacking a crate of supplies could go wrong and cause problems if a person hasn't been enculturated to understand what a directional arrow symbol means. It doesn't matter if the words, "This End Up" are in a different language. If you understand certain visual cues, you can open a box more quickly and safely.
I suppose that there are different levels of illiteracy.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)I say attempt, because there are not enough Russian troops to hold Ukraine.
Strelnikov_
(7,772 posts)Putin is done. Ukraine will be free again. Time is on everyone's side, except Putin's.
And once Putin is gone, the US/EU need to rebuild not just Ukraine, but also Russia. The Russian people are not our enemy, it is the corrupt oligarchs headed up by Putin that are the enemy.
And this time, instead of letting our corrupt oligarchs carve up post-Putin Russia for profit, we need to invest in building a healthy democracy in Russia.
Not fuck it up like we did the first time. That's how we ended up with Putin in the first place.
Doc Sportello
(7,522 posts)When the USSR imploded many Russian citizens and some politicians wanted our help, but lingering Cold War thinking and other factors prevented it. It would be difficult to build a democracy from the ground up in a place that has always been under autocratic rule. But I think we have to try, because Russia's natural resources and its nuclear capabilities mean it will be a player on the world stage, no matter how much the rest of the world would like to ignore it.
timvrip
(32 posts)Spot on
Jetheels
(991 posts)We barely have a democracy left here.
niyad
(113,344 posts)Happy Hoosier
(7,314 posts)... and a country set back decades. The West needs to grow a spine.
Tommymac
(7,263 posts)The West HAS shown it has a Spine of Steel in this struggle.
Happy Hoosier
(7,314 posts)I mean, I was pleased at first... some unity and some sanctions with bite. But one can hardly say we are showing a spine of "steel" when we categorically rule out military intervention.
Ultimately, the West is saying so far they are willing to allow Russia to take a destroy Ukraine rather than risk a military confrontation.
Meanwhile, we seem to explicitly acknowledge that the Russians are willing to risk confrontation with US to achieve their goals. Who do you think wins such a stand-off.
Tommymac
(7,263 posts)Again, that is NOT what the West is saying. That is what YOU are saying.
War is War - things get destroyed. People Die. But they are dying for what they believe in. Freedom.
The US would annihilate Russia in a nuclear war. It too will be annihilated. MAD still exists. However, Russia's nuclear forces are in as much trouble as their conventional ones - corruption has made them inefficient and probably less then 40% will actually work. On the other hand, the West's Nuclear forces are probably at 80% reliability or better.
Putin is losing. The West is strong. All it takes is a few hours reading reliable source material on the web to understand this.
I am not an expert, but I believe the experts of War. Putin is losing. He will be out of power before the end of this year.
Happy Hoosier
(7,314 posts)I am mystified by how quick the West is to declare it will not intervene, apparently under any circumstance.
It is basic strategy that if your opponent is willing to risk what you are not, then you lose. It's pretty simple.
I guess there is hop the economic sanctions will bite hard enough? Is there ANY historical precedence for the success of the strategy? I don't think so. It sure didn't work for Georgia, or Crimea. There is no reason to believe it will work here.
Strelnikov_
(7,772 posts)Just for reference, a study conducted three or so years ago conclude that a limited exchange of 20 nukes between India and Pakistan would result in 20% (or 25%, I forget now) of the world's population starving just due to lowered agricultural production in the US midwest due to global cooling from the smoke caused by burning cities.
Even a 'limited' exchange between Russia and the EU/US is the end of everything. I figure 95% of US populace dead from starvation and the Road Warrior post war life. Rest of the world similar due to its dependence on US and Russian agricultural sectors.
I really think what we are seeing here, Tommy, is a younger population, that did not grow up during the cold war, a majority of which and has no concept of the fragility of modern industrial society, and the impact a nuclear exchange would have.
And yea, I know, Trump grew up during Cold War, but he's an idiot.
Roc2020
(1,616 posts)Putin will level the country before he allows that. The War isn't going well for Putin but in the end that only makes it worse for Ukraine.
Tommymac
(7,263 posts)He probably will not survive in power past summer.
Ukraine will be with us as long as we have countries.
Amishman
(5,557 posts)Either domestic unrest or the extreme economic pressure from (FINALLY!) significant sanctions will for retreat and/or regime change in Russia
If this goes on for a month or two, yes the humanitarian cost will be extreme, but Russia's ability to wage war will become exhausted.
I saw that 111 of the 118 units staged for the invasion have now been committed. The readiness of those units has been laughable despite having months to prepare. Any reinforcements will now be from units that Russia had not planned on fielding. They will be less prepared, more poorly equipped, and need to be brought into theatre first.
Given the signs of poor maintenance we are already seeing in the committed units, they might reach a point where the supply of viable armored vehicles has been exhausted. We've seen several Pantsir missile trucks abandoned because they broke down. These are much newer than most Russian equipment, and as wheeled vehicles are easier to maintain than tracked. What percentage of Russia's remaining vehicles are not available due to lack of maintenance? No way of knowing, but based on what we do know, it could be a big factor as this continues.
kentuck
(111,103 posts)that he never expected to happen. He may have thought they would have been met with flowers and kisses but it didn't happen.
Now, he is like a cornered rat, that still wants to eat all the cheese before he leaves.
Happy Hoosier
(7,314 posts)But I see exactly ZERO indication of it.
I think he survives this.
I would 100% love to be wrong.
Grins
(7,218 posts)Great! There are a lot of dissidents in Russia and Belarus. Arm them. Set off a bomb in Moscows subway. Hit an electric generating site. Same in Belarus.
Give Putin something to worry about in his own damn backyard.
maxsolomon
(33,345 posts)Terrorism is not the correct response. Ever. Putin doesn't use the Subway; "average" Russians do, many of whom are opposed to this war.
You should edit.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)Its heavily Ukrainian and now extremely anti-Russian. Also too close to NATO and Putler doesnt want NATO involved.
Eastern Ukraine they will try to occupy and eventually have to leave just like Afghanistan.
Wingus Dingus
(8,054 posts)Cha
(297,317 posts)Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)they've already lost around a third as many soldiers as were killed in Afghanistan in 10 years, in the space of a week. Ukraine is claiming 5-6K Russians killed, and I've seen analysts call that number credible (unlike in Afghanistan, they're going up against a modern European army with weapons and equipment that are mostly comparable to their own).