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Shrek

(3,981 posts)
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 08:30 AM Mar 2022

"It's going to be worse than what the Russians had in Afghanistan"

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/04/russias-invasion-of-ukraine-is-baffling-military-analysts.html

Begging to differ with Putin’s assessment (or propaganda) on Russian progress in the invasion, former CIA director Gen. David Petraeus, said this week that Putin’s war in Ukraine is “going terribly” for Russia, telling CNN on Wednesday that “at the strategic level, he has essentially united most of the rest of the world ... And then on the battlefield, it’s going terribly.”

He said Russia was “stretched beyond its logistical and mechanical capabilities,” its troops (some of whom are less experienced conscripts) likely to be extremely tired and inexperienced in the face of a determined opponent, as Ukraine is proving to be.

That point is agreed with by Col. Liam Collins, founding director of the Modern War Institute in New York, who said Thursday that Ukraine’s army, and thousands of volunteers who have stayed in Ukraine to fight to save their homeland, would continue to mount a staunch resistance in Ukraine’s capital, Kyiv.

“Not only do the Russians have to fight through the Ukrainian forces that are there, they have to fight through all these armed volunteers that are just going to be conducting attacks on them the whole time,” he told the BBC’s “The Briefing Room” show, adding that Ukrainians were preparing to mount an insurgency against Russia.

It’s going to be worse than what the Russians had in Afghanistan, that’s what the Ukrainians are going to do,” he added, alluding to the then Soviet Union’s drawn-out, bloody, costly and unpopular invasion of Afghanistan in 1979 that lasted 10 years and led to the loss of around 15,000 Soviet soldiers.
37 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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"It's going to be worse than what the Russians had in Afghanistan" (Original Post) Shrek Mar 2022 OP
I agree with all of this post, however, gab13by13 Mar 2022 #1
Ukraine borders several EU nations Kaleva Mar 2022 #7
I'm very optimistic sometimes a battle won means a strategic defeat. Putin is getting his ass kicked Tommymac Mar 2022 #17
How can they reduce the whole nation of Ukraine to rubble? tavernier Mar 2022 #33
With their air force. This is why Ukraine is begging for a no-fly zone. n/t AntiFascist Mar 2022 #35
I have to be very careful because of where I live tavernier Mar 2022 #36
Ukraine is receiving serious weaponry far, far earlier than the Mujaheeden in Afghanistan bucolic_frolic Mar 2022 #2
Just to point out to others Victor_c3 Mar 2022 #4
anyone can be trained in anything. Layzeebeaver Mar 2022 #6
The schools I attended in the Navy were months long Kaleva Mar 2022 #9
This sounds awfully like organized religion. kiri Mar 2022 #19
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2022 #8
And after almost 20 years there COL Mustard Mar 2022 #12
Thank you for your observation. Collimator Mar 2022 #30
Watch Russia attempt a maximal police state, including soldiers searching all homes and business Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2022 #3
Which is why we need to give it time, instead of risking nuclear holocaust Strelnikov_ Mar 2022 #5
Agree with this Doc Sportello Mar 2022 #10
Hear, hear timvrip Mar 2022 #11
We're going to build a healthy democracy in Russia? Jetheels Mar 2022 #13
so general betrayus is still talking? niyad Mar 2022 #14
That's nice. It'll only take tens of thousands dying... Happy Hoosier Mar 2022 #15
Hello - what planet are you on? Tommymac Mar 2022 #18
Steel? Happy Hoosier Mar 2022 #21
There is a time and place for military force. This is not it - we want to avert a Nuclear response. Tommymac Mar 2022 #23
I hope you are right, but I think you are not. Happy Hoosier Mar 2022 #24
All it takes is 20 nukes between India and Pakistan to kill 20% of the worlds population Strelnikov_ Mar 2022 #29
Ukraine will not defeat Russia Roc2020 Mar 2022 #16
Ukraine WILL Survive and Win. Putin is weak. Tommymac Mar 2022 #20
They don't need to defeat Russia, they only need to avoid defeat themselves Amishman Mar 2022 #26
I think has gotten himself into a pickle... kentuck Mar 2022 #22
I keep hearing that... Happy Hoosier Mar 2022 #25
"... preparing to mount an insurgency against Russia." Great! Grins Mar 2022 #27
"Set off a bomb in Moscow's subway"? maxsolomon Mar 2022 #37
The Russians have very little hope of occupying Western Ukraine. roamer65 Mar 2022 #28
Hopefully we will help with that effort. Make it a permanent insurgency. Wingus Dingus Mar 2022 #31
💙Reports of civilians with 🇺🇦 flags on the streets of the occupied #Kherson. The guts of these pe Cha Mar 2022 #32
If the casualty figures I've seen are accurate or even close to accurate.... Spider Jerusalem Mar 2022 #34

gab13by13

(21,360 posts)
1. I agree with all of this post, however,
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 08:43 AM
Mar 2022

in the meantime, Putin is going to reduce Ukraine to rubble, making areas unlivable. It also appears that Russia is getting closer to controlling the southern border which will shut off Ukraine's access to the sea. The only way to re-supply Ukraine will be through Poland.

Tommymac

(7,263 posts)
17. I'm very optimistic sometimes a battle won means a strategic defeat. Putin is getting his ass kicked
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 11:26 AM
Mar 2022

This is war. It is messy, dirty, confusing and does not lend itself well to immediate analysis.

Thousands will die. Tens of thousands will be injured. Ukraine's infrastructure will be devastated.

These are the price true Freedom demands when attacked.

Ukraine will continue to receive supplies via the Black Sea coast. It is simply too big to control every single river, stream, bay and harbor.

This is Putin's war and he is losing big time. But it will be a very long struggle if he continues in power.

No reason for pessimism, unless you count the M$M constant fear mongering and horse race mentality used to drive up ratings.

tavernier

(12,392 posts)
33. How can they reduce the whole nation of Ukraine to rubble?
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 07:48 PM
Mar 2022

They can’t even move their tanks out of the mud in a circle.

Victor_c3

(3,557 posts)
4. Just to point out to others
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 08:56 AM
Mar 2022

The Ukrainians are much better educated than Afghan fighters. Literacy rates in Afghanistan are atrocious. Giving modern and complex weapons to people who can’t read an instruction manual or a repair manual limits how effective the weapon system can be deployed. The people of Ukraine won’t have that problem.

Layzeebeaver

(1,624 posts)
6. anyone can be trained in anything.
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 09:20 AM
Mar 2022

education level is not relevant.

How long it takes is dependent on the receptiveness of the student and the effectiveness of the instructor.

Kaleva

(36,312 posts)
9. The schools I attended in the Navy were months long
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 09:31 AM
Mar 2022

My initial training after boot camp lasted almost 1 1/2 years. BE&E, FT Phase 1, FT Phase 2, and then C school.

Response to Victor_c3 (Reply #4)

COL Mustard

(5,906 posts)
12. And after almost 20 years there
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 10:08 AM
Mar 2022

We were never able to really raise educational standards for most of the populace. I heard stories of Afghan soldiers not knowing their numbers. If you asked how many brothers Ali had (just making up a name) he couldn't tell you. He could name them all, but he couldn't tell you that he had seven. He also couldn't tell you that the medal in your avatar has a blue stripe in a red field. He had other ways of describing those colors, but not the traditional way.

Ukraine has (had) a high standard of living and an educated population who are clearly willing to fight for their country and their freedom. This will be hugely different from Afghanistan.

Collimator

(1,639 posts)
30. Thank you for your observation.
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 07:25 PM
Mar 2022

Many people do not stop to think about the sorts of information/education that they have which allows them to move effectively through the world.

In the movie, Glory, there was one young man in the newly formed Black regiment who was a gifted shot with a rifle. But when it came time to learn how to march, he was hampered because he didn't know his left from his right. That seems like such basic knowledge, but if no one ever explains, the person kept in ignorance is held back in ways that are hard to fathom.

Something as simple as unpacking a crate of supplies could go wrong and cause problems if a person hasn't been enculturated to understand what a directional arrow symbol means. It doesn't matter if the words, "This End Up" are in a different language. If you understand certain visual cues, you can open a box more quickly and safely.

I suppose that there are different levels of illiteracy.

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,007 posts)
3. Watch Russia attempt a maximal police state, including soldiers searching all homes and business
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 08:45 AM
Mar 2022

I say attempt, because there are not enough Russian troops to hold Ukraine.

Strelnikov_

(7,772 posts)
5. Which is why we need to give it time, instead of risking nuclear holocaust
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 09:18 AM
Mar 2022

Putin is done. Ukraine will be free again. Time is on everyone's side, except Putin's.

And once Putin is gone, the US/EU need to rebuild not just Ukraine, but also Russia. The Russian people are not our enemy, it is the corrupt oligarchs headed up by Putin that are the enemy.

And this time, instead of letting our corrupt oligarchs carve up post-Putin Russia for profit, we need to invest in building a healthy democracy in Russia.

Not fuck it up like we did the first time. That's how we ended up with Putin in the first place.

Doc Sportello

(7,522 posts)
10. Agree with this
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 09:44 AM
Mar 2022

When the USSR imploded many Russian citizens and some politicians wanted our help, but lingering Cold War thinking and other factors prevented it. It would be difficult to build a democracy from the ground up in a place that has always been under autocratic rule. But I think we have to try, because Russia's natural resources and its nuclear capabilities mean it will be a player on the world stage, no matter how much the rest of the world would like to ignore it.

Happy Hoosier

(7,314 posts)
15. That's nice. It'll only take tens of thousands dying...
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 10:54 AM
Mar 2022

... and a country set back decades. The West needs to grow a spine.

Happy Hoosier

(7,314 posts)
21. Steel?
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 11:31 AM
Mar 2022

I mean, I was pleased at first... some unity and some sanctions with bite. But one can hardly say we are showing a spine of "steel" when we categorically rule out military intervention.

Ultimately, the West is saying so far they are willing to allow Russia to take a destroy Ukraine rather than risk a military confrontation.

Meanwhile, we seem to explicitly acknowledge that the Russians are willing to risk confrontation with US to achieve their goals. Who do you think wins such a stand-off.

Tommymac

(7,263 posts)
23. There is a time and place for military force. This is not it - we want to avert a Nuclear response.
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 11:39 AM
Mar 2022

Again, that is NOT what the West is saying. That is what YOU are saying.

War is War - things get destroyed. People Die. But they are dying for what they believe in. Freedom.

The US would annihilate Russia in a nuclear war. It too will be annihilated. MAD still exists. However, Russia's nuclear forces are in as much trouble as their conventional ones - corruption has made them inefficient and probably less then 40% will actually work. On the other hand, the West's Nuclear forces are probably at 80% reliability or better.

Putin is losing. The West is strong. All it takes is a few hours reading reliable source material on the web to understand this.

I am not an expert, but I believe the experts of War. Putin is losing. He will be out of power before the end of this year.

Happy Hoosier

(7,314 posts)
24. I hope you are right, but I think you are not.
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 11:46 AM
Mar 2022

I am mystified by how quick the West is to declare it will not intervene, apparently under any circumstance.

It is basic strategy that if your opponent is willing to risk what you are not, then you lose. It's pretty simple.

I guess there is hop the economic sanctions will bite hard enough? Is there ANY historical precedence for the success of the strategy? I don't think so. It sure didn't work for Georgia, or Crimea. There is no reason to believe it will work here.

Strelnikov_

(7,772 posts)
29. All it takes is 20 nukes between India and Pakistan to kill 20% of the worlds population
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 03:11 PM
Mar 2022

Just for reference, a study conducted three or so years ago conclude that a limited exchange of 20 nukes between India and Pakistan would result in 20% (or 25%, I forget now) of the world's population starving just due to lowered agricultural production in the US midwest due to global cooling from the smoke caused by burning cities.

Even a 'limited' exchange between Russia and the EU/US is the end of everything. I figure 95% of US populace dead from starvation and the Road Warrior post war life. Rest of the world similar due to its dependence on US and Russian agricultural sectors.

I really think what we are seeing here, Tommy, is a younger population, that did not grow up during the cold war, a majority of which and has no concept of the fragility of modern industrial society, and the impact a nuclear exchange would have.

And yea, I know, Trump grew up during Cold War, but he's an idiot.




Roc2020

(1,616 posts)
16. Ukraine will not defeat Russia
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 11:24 AM
Mar 2022

Putin will level the country before he allows that. The War isn't going well for Putin but in the end that only makes it worse for Ukraine.

Tommymac

(7,263 posts)
20. Ukraine WILL Survive and Win. Putin is weak.
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 11:30 AM
Mar 2022

He probably will not survive in power past summer.

Ukraine will be with us as long as we have countries.

Amishman

(5,557 posts)
26. They don't need to defeat Russia, they only need to avoid defeat themselves
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 11:48 AM
Mar 2022

Either domestic unrest or the extreme economic pressure from (FINALLY!) significant sanctions will for retreat and/or regime change in Russia

If this goes on for a month or two, yes the humanitarian cost will be extreme, but Russia's ability to wage war will become exhausted.

I saw that 111 of the 118 units staged for the invasion have now been committed. The readiness of those units has been laughable despite having months to prepare. Any reinforcements will now be from units that Russia had not planned on fielding. They will be less prepared, more poorly equipped, and need to be brought into theatre first.

Given the signs of poor maintenance we are already seeing in the committed units, they might reach a point where the supply of viable armored vehicles has been exhausted. We've seen several Pantsir missile trucks abandoned because they broke down. These are much newer than most Russian equipment, and as wheeled vehicles are easier to maintain than tracked. What percentage of Russia's remaining vehicles are not available due to lack of maintenance? No way of knowing, but based on what we do know, it could be a big factor as this continues.

kentuck

(111,103 posts)
22. I think has gotten himself into a pickle...
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 11:34 AM
Mar 2022

that he never expected to happen. He may have thought they would have been met with flowers and kisses but it didn't happen.

Now, he is like a cornered rat, that still wants to eat all the cheese before he leaves.

Happy Hoosier

(7,314 posts)
25. I keep hearing that...
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 11:47 AM
Mar 2022

But I see exactly ZERO indication of it.

I think he survives this.

I would 100% love to be wrong.

Grins

(7,218 posts)
27. "... preparing to mount an insurgency against Russia." Great!
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 01:17 PM
Mar 2022

Great! There are a lot of dissidents in Russia and Belarus. Arm them. Set off a bomb in Moscow’s subway. Hit an electric generating site. Same in Belarus.

Give Putin something to worry about in his own damn backyard.

maxsolomon

(33,345 posts)
37. "Set off a bomb in Moscow's subway"?
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 08:22 PM
Mar 2022

Terrorism is not the correct response. Ever. Putin doesn't use the Subway; "average" Russians do, many of whom are opposed to this war.

You should edit.

roamer65

(36,745 posts)
28. The Russians have very little hope of occupying Western Ukraine.
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 01:21 PM
Mar 2022

It’s heavily Ukrainian and now extremely anti-Russian. Also too close to NATO and Putler doesn’t want NATO involved.

Eastern Ukraine they will try to occupy and eventually have to leave just like Afghanistan.

Cha

(297,317 posts)
32. 💙Reports of civilians with 🇺🇦 flags on the streets of the occupied #Kherson. The guts of these pe
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 07:45 PM
Mar 2022
 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
34. If the casualty figures I've seen are accurate or even close to accurate....
Fri Mar 4, 2022, 08:08 PM
Mar 2022

they've already lost around a third as many soldiers as were killed in Afghanistan in 10 years, in the space of a week. Ukraine is claiming 5-6K Russians killed, and I've seen analysts call that number credible (unlike in Afghanistan, they're going up against a modern European army with weapons and equipment that are mostly comparable to their own).

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