GIVE THEM THE DAMNED PLANES!

[EndlessWire]

If we won't defend them with boots on the ground or a no-fly zone, if we won't honor our agreement to defend them, then at least give them the planes they are asking for. We can take the monetary hit. It's nothing to us. SEND THEM THE PLANES.

It may not make any difference--but it might. It may not give Putin pause--but it might. President Z is requesting planes NOW. Not tomorrow. Not in a month. NOW. Paint the planes with Fuck You Putin on them and send them over NOW.

I'm just so pissed. The UN can't do anything. NATO won't do anything. We will have NO EXCUSE when ALL of Ukraine is taken over by Russia. No excuse when we pray to G-d to show us the way. No excuses for inaction.

Putin is going to be Putin. He has NO PLANS WHATSOEVER to stop with Ukraine. He put that down in writing. It is STUPID to not see this, and to not help Ukraine.

If we won't help Ukraine, then why can't we at least help them to help themselves???

[secondwind]

1. Let's see what Biden will say this afternoon.......

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. I absolutely agree. This is no time to pull away from these brave people. We must help them NOW. n/t

[BannonsLiver]

3. Who is we?

The US wasn’t sending them planes. Poland was. Try and keep up.

[femmedem]

4. "Try and keep up." Why be so belittling to a fellow DUer?

Try and be nicer, please.

[BannonsLiver]

5. Because it's irritating to me when people don't understand basic facts.

[HUAJIAO]

9. Why piss on somebody on our side because they don't meet your required

level of knowledge?

[BannonsLiver]

12. Why make an uninformed, over the top hair on fire post claiming nobody's doing anything for Ukraine?

I have no idea. Perhaps ask the OP.

[EndlessWire]

26. You know very well what I mean.

Your anger against me is not justified. Why don't you channel it into whatever post you think is just swell?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

32. Been trying what you're trying for many years. Pretty

Futile - better to ignore

[EndlessWire]

74. OK. n/t

[stopdiggin]

53. your post was ill informed, factually incorrect

" .. if we won't honor our agreement to defend them .."

In fact, there was never any such 'agreement.'

and a flaming indictment of anyone who would dare disagree. And yet everyone else is suppose to 'go easy' with the verbal riposte because you're on the 'right side.' Sorry - not seeing it that way.

[MadameButterfly]

65. the post was factually correct

When Ukraine agreed to give up nukes, they were promised by the West that they would be defended from attacks. That was the condition under which they gave up the nukes.

I also think the original poster wasn't referring only to the planes offered by Poland. I think he/she was suggesting someone else (the US?) should give them planes.

I agree. They are giving up their lives for democracy, we (the US and the rest of Europe) can give up some planes.

[jaxexpat]

86. I'm forgetful, of course, but was there not some agreement wherein all nuclear weapons ......

on Ukraine soil were given over to Russia for "safe" keeping when the various former USSR states were given independent statehood? I thought that the US, the UK and (maybe) other nations signed onto this "treaty" at that time (1994).

I thought one of the conditions was:
A) since the new state was giving up its nuclear weapons, Ukraine gives nukes to Russia
B) should the receiving nation attack the giving nation, Russia attacking Ukraine
C) the co-signing nations would bring the power of the UN to bear on the side of the newly disarmed state, allied cohort fights at the UN for Ukraine

Everyone wins in this argument settlement, except, of course, the Ukraine.

Yep, the US swaggered into the UN and let the whole world know that they were the sole arbiters for the "serious" stuff from now on, so just take a seat and listen, the adults are in charge. And that, children, is how we get owned, real big, by our own self-image, in Democracyland.

So, unless Russia attacks a NATO member, the war-to-finally-end-all-wars is deferred indefinitely. Until Russia's fist hurts so bad it can't beat up the Ukraine anymore, it will beat up the Ukraine. Nice planet you got there; it'd be a shame if something bad were to happen.

[EndlessWire]

27. I have to show respect on this forum.

Better people than you have gotten me into trouble with the Mods for a lot less provocative commentary. I'll let this go.

[dumbcat]

35. Thank you

That made no sense to me, but thanks, anyway.

[EndlessWire]

38. Well, of course it didn't, dear. n/t

[WarGamer]

46. to be honest... there are a number of DU'ers who post a LOT of knowledge daily...

DU should have an extremely educated user-base by just reading the knowledgeable posters.

[BlackSkimmer]

68. Some of us don't spend all day on our computers.

This time of year I’m outside almost all the time. I come in for breaks and sometimes check DU.

Nine times out of ten, there are OPs about interactions at the checkout counter, interactions regarding mask wearing, a story about “my trump neighbor/coworker/relative”, reports about what Fox/Hannity/Carlson are saying, Twitter “news”, Facebook “news”, show biz deaths/gossip, and so on. I’m happy to peruse any and all, but informative posts are not always in the majority.

Yes, there are a few knowledgeable posters here, but at any given time, one might not encounter them or their knowledge.

[WarGamer]

80. +1000 nt

[EndlessWire]

22. It's irritating to me

when people can't read thoroughly and infer anything. And, here you are doubling down on your unwarranted insults. I'll chalk it up to your war nerves.

[BannonsLiver]

24. Chalk it up to whatever you like?

I know what I chalk up the uninformed content above to, and I’ll leave it at that.

[EndlessWire]

29. Well, you do that. Thanks a lot! n/t

[denbot]

39. You are always stirring shit.

It is what you are.

[BlackSkimmer]

52. And not even a star member.

Go figure.

[denbot]

57. Dude you're cut from the same cloth or have you forgot your crap from yesterday.

Not a dimes bit of difference.

[denbot]

58. Dude you're cut from the same cloth or have you forgot your crap from yesterday.

Not a dimes bit of difference.

[BlackSkimmer]

72. You're repeating yourself in your personal attacks.

No idea what you’re referring to; did I disagree with you or something?

[48656c6c6f20]

41. They're just mad because they are Carnac the Magnificent!

[Nevilledog]

16. Not correct.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/02/28/ukrainian-pilots-arrive-in-poland-to-pick-up-donated-fighter-jets-00012560

In a move likely aimed at increasing pressure on Europe to act, the Ukrainian parliament on Monday tweeted that Europe was sending 70 fighter planes to Ukraine, including 28 MiG-29s from Poland, 12 from Slovakia and 16 from Bulgaria, along with 14 Su-25s from Bulgaria.


They were coming from different countries. They were going to be delivered thru Poland.

Just to keep up and all.

[EndlessWire]

19. Who are you? n/t

[BannonsLiver]

21. Who are you?

[lagomorph777]

28. We could fund Poland and provide geopolitical cover.

It's rude of you to be so condescending. You don't know what the OP knows or does not know.

[CommonHumanity]

43. agree with stop being belittling.

There's no need. Essentially you are discouraging people from participating in this forum to serve your need to feel superior. Sorry to be harsh. My response is a pent-up reaction to the other belittlers. It drives me crazy. If you can't be kind and tolerant to others on this forum how the hell do you think you could ever offer a persuasive argument to those who are misinformed? I am so tired of the posters who are condescending and use their replies so gratify their perceived superiority.

[smirkymonkey]

54. +1000

Thank you for saying what needs to be said.

[BannonsLiver]

82. This has been explained OVER and OVER AGAIN

By President Biden. By Boris Johnson. By Macron. By innumerable stories on TV, in newspapers and on the web. If people don’t know why this can’t and shouldn’t happen by now they are not doing enough to inform themselves.

[MadameButterfly]

87. so is there a news knowldege requirement to post on Du

and has all difference of opinion disappeared on this issue?

We aren't, after all, making actual policy here. Many are just expressing feelings about the situation.

[BannonsLiver]

88. So saying NATO and the west aren't doing anything is supposed to be taken seriously?

No thanks.

[CommonHumanity]

98. Excuse me, but...

My post was not about whether or "not saying NATO and the west aren't doing anything is supposed to be taken seriously". My post was about your unnecessary and counterproductive belittling. I would like to respectfully suggest that you are shifting the subject and being defensive. This is what I feel when people are belittling: They do it in service to their fragile egos. Ironically, rather than making them look superior and oh so much smarter, it makes them look insecure.

[MadameButterfly]

99. THis isn't about NATO

It's about whether we can debate each other respectfully, have differences of opinion, correct each other helpfully if we have additonal information. We aren't sitting for law exams here. We're amateurs having a discussion.

[usajumpedtheshark]

6. I believe I read that Ukraine requested airplanes and parts for the type of planes they

are trained use and that several countries have done so.

Reuters is quoting US Defense official who says they still have the majority of their aircraft.
https://www.reuters.com/world/ukraine-still-has-significant-majority-its-military-aircraft-us-official-2022-03-04/

[EndlessWire]

36. Followed your link: This is not why the plane order was cancelled.

Who can presume that Ukraine has enough of anything?

Here's a link to an article about what Zelensky had to say:

https://www.axios.com/zelensky-ukraine-no-fly-zone-planes-7eb2e6f8-d488-4444-bc70-889141b34dcf.html

He has a Russian column of multiple vehicles waiting to come in and flatten his capitol.

He also has a point about controlling the sky over the nuclear plants.

[Wingus Dingus]

7. I am for giving them planes, drones, anti aircraft equipment, all of it.

[hamsterjill]

83. Me, too.

I cannot believe we are going to sit here and let these people be slaughtered.

[Calculating]

8. We need to give them some advanced surface to air missiles

If anything, let THEM establish a no fly zone.

[Tommymac]

10. THEY ARE NOT USING NATO EQUIPTMENT. They use Russian planes.

It would take YEARS to set up the infrastructure to train, use and maintain NATO aircraft.

I have a headache.

[32571]

15. Exactly correct

Would take substantial training time that they don’t have

[lagomorph777]

33. Incorrect. Poland has offered Russian planes.

[uponit7771]

59. They need to be trained on the Polish updated Mig 29s. Long and Short RU AA would be 10 times more

... effective and work better than planes right now.

People are taking the M$M or MAGA media talking point on NFZ and applyfying them.

I wish we'd stopo

[EndlessWire]

73. I used to work for an aircraft company, a rather large one.

We had foreign pilots training all the time. We just don't know who is here right now. But, I agree, they don't have time.

[EndlessWire]

20. Poor baby. n/t

[lagomorph777]

30. Poland is NATO. Poland has offered Russian planes.

I assume your headache made you forget that.

[Tommymac]

31. No, but it makes it very easy to ignore things.

[monkeyman1]

48. then what good is NATO in a emergency & have a contract dispute ?

I know I'll eat a whole bunch of shit on this ! but , people going D.O.A . because the right hand don't know what the left hand is doing ? WW2 started that way till Japan bombed the hell out of Hawaii ! so, you don't help people out because you don't belong to their little club ! absolutely bull- shit !

[ColinC]

51. They have pilots trained on Warthogs according to a former NATO commander

[uponit7771]

60. True, they're not EFFICIENT at using them and Short and long range RU AA would do UKR way more

... good than planes they'll have to wait months to train in.

[ColinC]

62. And migs. Migs would be great.

(which the EU so far apparently decided for and then against and hopefully for before it's too late)

[uponit7771]

67. UKR doesn't need more migs, they need the drones and Turkey is airlifting them as we type

... people are screaming about what the M$M is parroting and they're 2 - 4 days behind.

Look at OSINT on twitter to keep up nearly hourly with what's going on in UKR.

[ColinC]

71. Thanks!

Its hard for me to imagine the migs wouldn't do them much good. But it's also hard to imagine the drones won't help even more.

[uponit7771]

56. +1,

[FBaggins]

11. This isn't WWI or WWII

A MIG-29 might look a bit like an F-15, but the pilot for the first can't just hop into the second and be effective... nor can the armament (and other logistics) for one be used on the other.

If they have extra pilots and want additional aircraft - they're going to have to get them from other former soviet client states.

[32571]

13. Spot on

You are exactly correct

[EndlessWire]

23. And the countries that they WERE going to get planes from

are NATO countries and have said, not so fast.

[FBaggins]

90. Seriously? Could we please apply more than a 4th grade analysis?

Get them Iron Dome! Send them more planes! DO IT NOW!!!!!

A number of countries have been sending them defensive weapons - but they need to be things that the existing personnel can operate effectively with little to no training.

We don't need laypersons on the internet running logistics for a war half a world away from their armchairs.

[uponit7771]

61. +1, the Polish planes were updated Mig 29s that UKR pilots have not trained on. UKR is doing ...

... good with 80% of their air force and a good portion of the long range and short range AA still in tack.

[FBaggins]

89. Maybe they could buy more from Russia?

I understand that they're having trouble with hard currency lately.

[uponit7771]

97. right ... lol

[Lurker Deluxe]

17. Just get it over with

Give them a ballistic missile submarine. You want to call a bluff … may as well go big.

[EndlessWire]

25. What's a bluff?

Putin is killing children. That's real enough. But, I guess just as long as it isn't OUR child...

[Calista241]

18. Poland is the only NATO country that has planes the Ukrainians could field effectively.

The Poles have some leftover Mig-29's, that they are supposedly providing to the Ukrainians, but I don't think this has been actually confirmed. The aircraft are only available because the Poles are switching over to NATO military technology. They already field several squadrons of F16s, and have purchased, but not taken delivery of, some F35s.

Giving them US attack aircraft is simply not an option. First, we can't risk that technology falling into the hands of the Russians, which it would if we gave them airframes. Second, the ramp time for a new pilot to even learn how to operate a plane takes a year. Learning how the plane operates in combat conditions would take even longer. There's a reason the military requires 10 years of service for pilots they train, as opposed to normal 4 year commitments for other MOS obligations.

Ukraine is going to lose this army on army conflict. They're outnumbered and outgunned, and while the Russian Army has been less than impressive, the Ukrainians simply don't have the equipment, air power, numbers or arms to fight back long term.

If I was a member of their armed forces, I would be hiding away as much armament as I could for the insurgency period that is going to set in after Ukraine surrenders. NLAWS, Javelins, sniper rifles, mortars, ammunition, food, water; all of that equipment will be invaluable and in high demand in the coming years. Keep in mind that as long as the Russian Army is fighting an insurgency in Ukraine, the less they're going to be able to intimidate the Balkan states and Poland, which are presumed to be Putin's next targets.

[radius777]

34. Agree. Give them the planes they can fly now, ie

the older ones - not anything new that will fall into Russia's hands.

And arm them for guerrilla war - that is certainly going to be the next phase of this after Russia takes over. Make it a quagmire of epic proportions all while the sanctions implode Russia from within.

What I worry about is Putin becoming brutal (ie, genocide) knowing the Ukrainian people are resistant to the occupation.

[BlueWavePsych]

37. Ukraine must receive those MIGs via land or sea; NATO cannot be seen as providing air cover.

Unfortunately, planes delivered over land or sea are easy targets.

[sl8]

91. What about Bulgarian, Romanian, and Slovakian aircraft? n/t

Last edited Fri Mar 4, 2022, 05:52 PM - Edit history (1)

[Calista241]

94. They don't have any Mig-29s to really spare.

Poland is unique, in that they have the extra airframes lying around, in relatively good shape, and still reasonably well maintained. They've already taken delivery of enough replacement F16s that the remaining Mig-29s are superfluous.

Romania has and handful, and Slovakia has a couple, but these appear to be still in active service and used by their own air forces.

[sl8]

96. Thanks. n/t

[LudwigPastorius]

40. "...if we won't honor our agreement to defend (Ukraine)...

I must have missed that.

When did the Unites States agree to defend Ukraine?

Perhaps you are confusing the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative with a signed defense treaty?

[EndlessWire]

47. I guess I believe in honesty.

I'm not confused at all. Real cute the way you phrased that, by the way. Doesn't change anything.

[LudwigPastorius]

69. The way I phrased it was a direct quote...

from you.

[EndlessWire]

85. Nope

"Perhaps you are confusing the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative with a signed defense treaty?"

Real cute. You could have just come out and stated your point forthright, instead of getting a shot in.

I just take a dim view of deceitful persuasion. We persuaded Ukraine to give up its nukes by making a promise we never intended to honor. That about sums it up.

[stopdiggin]

63. you 'missed' it because it isn't there

some of us are heavy on verbiage - a little shorter on facts.

[58Sunliner]

42. YES!!!!!!!

[colorado_ufo]

44. "Send in the planes . . .

there ought to be planes . . . "

And lots of them. We need to overwhelm the invaders the way that American industry and the war machine did in WWII.

[BamaRefugee]

45. I can't disagree but what are Poland et al supposed to be fighting with if their planes have already

been shot down in Ukraine when Putin strikes them?
They fly Russian aircraft almost exclusively, does anyone think Putin will resupply them before he invades?

[EndlessWire]

49. That's okay.

Whatever they think. Go for it. Kaliningrad has about 200,000 to 250,000 military personnel with associated hardware and ballistics. Soon, Poland will have Russia on its doorstep. With Kaliningrad on one side, Belarus on another, and Russia on a third, Poland doesn't stand a chance without NATO intervention.

We sent stuff to Poland. Presumably, we would defend them. After all, they are NATO.

[Justice matters.]

50. If putin attacks Poland, Poland is in NATO.

That would mean US, UK, France would fly their own jets, bombers and UFOs as per Article 5.

[BamaRefugee]

66. At age 70, and seen a TON of things happen, I am skeptical.

I don't think we're going to war with a nuclear armed nation that we KNOW can strike the US.
Not to save Poland.
Save Cleveland? Maybe.

[Justice matters.]

76. putin (and more importantly, his army leaders) also know

NATO forces (and that includes us) can strike their country. France already has its nuclear subs cruising the Baltic sea... Ours aren't sailing too far behind.

Nobody will launch nukes. Nuclear winter would kill them too.

[uponit7771]

64. UKR still has a majority of their air force still in tack, RU air power isn't the big issue its ...

... Putrid's bitch move when it comes to attacking citizens cause he's getting his ass kicked by the UKR ground forces.

Air isn't a big problem right now

[BamaRefugee]

70. RU air power is like the best relief pitcher on a baseball team.

You don't send him out in the first innings.
You use him to totally end the game in your favor.
Russian air force just doing warm up pitches right now.

[world wide wally]

55. I agree...FUCK Putin and the tank he rode in on

[CaptainTruth]

75. Don't give, SELL.

There's legitimate concern about having US (or NATO) planes in Ukraine shooting down Russian planes. I understand that.

So fine, SELL them planes so they won't be US/NATO aircraft they'll be Ukrainian-owned Ukrainian aircraft, just like the Ukrainian-owned Ukrainian aircraft (which were also purchased from other countries) currently flying around & shooting down Russian planes.

SELL them planes on attractive terms like no money down & no payments due for 36 months. As I recently said, tell the diplomats to take a lunch break & bring in some used car salesmen, they'll get the deal done.

[barbtries]

77. no argument here.

allowing putin to succeed in Ukraine should not even be an option. I'm horrified.

[mudstump]

78. I lived through the Cold War and so did Lawrence O'Donnell...

[EndlessWire]

92. TY. n/t

[PatrickforB]

79. Well, I checked on this and saw a Politico article, as well as

several others, all dated three days ago, that say the EU is not, after all, sending any jets to Ukraine.

Many countries are sending weapons, anti tank stuff, missiles and such.

But Putin is like Hitler here in the first phases of his expansionism. Nip it in the bud now and we won't have to fight a major war later.

Nobody thinks long term any more though. Our democracies have been seriously undermined from the right. Now we have a megalomaniac who is starting to reassemble the old Soviet Union/Russian Empire. What are we willing to do to stop him?

Sending planes would be a small thing, but helpful.

We've supposedly drawn a line - IF Putin attacks any NATO countries, we will go to war to defend, but will we? Did we after the Sudetanland was annexed? Alsace-Lorraine? The Anschluss? Even after Hitler and Stalin split Poland so Germany could get the so-called 'Danzig Corridor,' we still sat on our thumbs. Only after the Nazis actually invaded France, Holland, Belgium, the Maginot Line collapsed, and allied troops were stuck on the beach at Dunkirk did we get serious.

And 'we' wasn't the US. We didn't get serious until the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor in retaliation for our oil embargo. THEN we got serious. We wouldn't even send planes to Churchill, and only leased Britain a bunch of old destroyers.

So...what will we do? Is it gonna happen again? Is Putin another Hitler? He's already attacked a nuclear plant and fired on firefighters who were trying to extinguish the fires the attack caused. Gosh that seems a bit risky...

After thinking this through, I have to echo your post. Send the damned planes. It ain't happening now, but needs to. We literally have to stop Putin now or this thing will get totally out of hand. As someone else said, let's see what Biden says today.

[prodigitalson]

81. I'd let them fly combat sorties out of Poland

As an independent non NATO operation. If Putin attacks Poland then it becomes a NATO ass kicking for Putin.

[LudwigPastorius]

100. Play that out.

How does Putin respond to a "NATO ass kicking", knowing that he is sitting on 1,600 tactical nuclear weapons and 2,400 strategic nuclear weapons?

[prodigitalson]

103. There is a reason I'm not in charge of such things.

It's unfortunate he has nukes. I think Poland alone could chew up the Russian army in a conventional war.

[Meowmee]

84. I was under the impression from reading posts here that

Planes are not being sent. I guess I need to read some more actual valid news sources. Certainly they should be. The agreement to protect Ukraine for giving up nukes is not being honored imo. They were foolish to give that up.

[harumph]

93. Surface to air missiles.

That would work.

[gldstwmn]

95. They don't know how to fly our planes.

They need planes they can actually fly.

[rockfordfile]

101. NATO have been helping them out. It's a lie to say they're not.

[EndlessWire]

102. I am responding to you because of the yellow tab.

And, that's all.

I told no lies. I was referring to the fact that the airplane deal fell through. I am sorry, I should have been clearer. GIVE THEM THE DAMNED PLANES. Half the thread thought I meant US planes. I am pretty up on daily, almost hourly, events. At least through last week. This week I will be fairly busy. But, last week Ukraine requested a no-fly zone, we (and, because my "we" is a generic NATO "we," I should just anticipate that you won't understand that, so I am telling you) said no, and Zelensky said, rather heart breakingly, well, if you can't do a no fly zone, at least send us the planes.

Apparently, they still need planes to fight. Many people wanted to excuse that by saying that they still had planes. People point out that many countries have sent military hardware. All of that is true. The US, in particular, has sent many tons of goods. We have sent planes through Poland. NATO has responded very well. We activated that forward defense thing, beefing up troop levels and putting ships to sea. All well and good.

But, Ukraine still needs to create a no fly zone, and they still need more planes to do that, and they need anti aircraft systems. It's not like the people are just sitting there not fighting back. They are fighting like hell. They will continue fighting. But, they could use some help. We said, no troops on the ground; we said, no no-fly zone; we finally said, we'll think about getting you more planes to make your own no-fly zone.

I did not lie. What is a lie to you? I did not say that NATO had done nothing. I said that we would not send troops. I said we wouldn't establish a no fly zone for them. And, at that point, the last I heard was that the plane deal had fallen apart.

"NATO won't do anything." This is a conditional, futuristic phrase based on the fact that NATO wasn't going to send aircraft at that point.

I don't know you. You are safe to call me a liar because you are anonymous, as I am. So, you get that in. Good for you, bud. Maybe you will learn something.