A different perspective on Putin and Ukraine

[drmeow]

Last edited Sat Mar 5, 2022, 11:45 PM - Edit history (1)

Many governments and media figures are rightly condemning Russian President Vladimir Putin’s attack on Ukraine as an act of aggression and a violation of international law. But in his first speech about the invasion, on February 24, US President Joe Biden also called the invasion “unprovoked.”

...

The story starts at the end of the Cold War, when the US was the only global hegemon. As part of the deal that finalized the reunification of Germany, the US promised Russia that NATO would not expand “one inch eastward.” Despite this, it wasn’t long before talk of expansion began to circulate among policy makers.

...

Kennan’s response [to ratification of NATO expansion]:

"I think it is the beginning of a new cold war. I think the Russians will gradually react quite adversely and it will affect their policies. I think it is a tragic mistake. There was no reason for this whatsoever. No one was threatening anybody else.

Of course there is going to be a bad reaction from Russia, and then [the NATO expanders] will say that we always told you that is how the Russians are—but this is just wrong."

...

None of this is to say that Putin’s invasion is justified—FAIR resolutely condemns the invasion as illegal and ruinous—but calling it “unprovoked” distracts attention from the US’s own contribution to this disastrous outcome. The US ignored warnings from both Russian and US officials that a major conflagration could erupt if the US continued its path, and it shouldn’t be surprising that one eventually did.



https://fair.org/home/calling-russias-attack-unprovoked-lets-us-off-the-hook/

[Wounded Bear]

1. IIRC, those Eastern European countries asked to join NATO...

living next to the Russian bear will do that to you. They knew that eventually, Russia would want them back into the Moscow orbit, no matter who took over.

Sounds a bit like justification for Russian expansionism.

[CentralMass]

2. Putin owns this.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

3. Sure sounds like you're trying to lessen Russia's responsibility

for the invasion.

[denbot]

4. Oh poor Russia, we forced them to snuff out a nation. Thank you for clearing that up.

Duly fucking noted.

[BootinUp]

5. I know I just read or heard a denial

Of that. Can’t recall now exactly who took issue with the promise as stated in the OP, some US diplomat I think. But I’m just saying it is not accepted as fact by everyone. And the explanation i am talking about made sense.

[Caliman73]

6. Okay. Did Ukraine provoke the invasion?

Seems like Russia has a problem with NATO, so it invades a non-NATO state?

I understand from a certain perspective, what is being said by fair.org. NATO however, is a defense treaty. I would imagine that if ANY European country, including Russia, wanted to join NATO, as long as they met the criteria for joining, they would be welcome.

Russia seems to see itself in its old role as the USSR, which opposed "the West" because of the differences within the Communist and Capitalist ideologies. Russia is supposedly a Capitalist democracy since the fall of the USSR. The G-7 used to be the G-8 because we extended Russia a hand and invitation to join the global trade community as a newly formed democracy. Seems that Putin liked power though and decided to become a dictator with desires to control the independent nations that formed after the USSR broke up.

[Sur Zobra]

7. There's no excusing Putin's motive

Once he invaded, it matters not the reason. Putin has no right to invade anyone

Why do some DUers continue to justify Putin’s invasion of Ukraine

[JanMichael]

8. It takes some amount of honesty to examine root causes or try to explain the "why".

Which is not common in the US EU or DU. Or USEUDU.

It doesn't make the attack on Ukraine acceptable, but to acknowledge that the US and NATO eventually took positions that broke early 90's agreements to not expand militarily, it is correct. I lived in Poland in the early and late 90's and it was clear then that they were not EU or NATO members but that was OK then. Then it all changed. And by the way Poland has since swung about as Right-wing as one can imagine. Same with Hungary. Great work.

[CentralMass]

11. Joining NATO didn't make Poland or Hungary swing right.

[JanMichael]

17. No but joining the EU and NATO certainly has not liberalized them either.

It has just all gone to shit.

The stories about African or Indian or other people of color getting harassed at the borders doesn't surprise me in the least.

In the 90's I saw plenty of skinhead Nazi types and ran into White Supremacist thugs at bars and "discos" more than enough times. I knew a now 70 year old Polish native with the first name Adolph (he feigned dislike of the namesake).

No NATO/EU did not "make" the Rightward swing but they sure haven't seemed to make it better.

[CentralMass]

20. Last I knew it isn't in NATO's charter to inforce racial justice or liberal

thought. Again Putins owns this.

[JanMichael]

21. Didn't say that thanks. The EU?

https://ec.europa.eu/info/aid-development-cooperation-fundamental-rights/your-rights-eu/eu-charter-fundamental-rights/why-do-we-need-charter_en

Whatever. We are done.

[PortTack]

29. just an FYI: the African and Asian students trying to pass into Poland did not not have passports

Therefore were detained while Ukraine residents went right thru. Poland and other neighboring countries are helping those that have no papers work thru the process to leave Ukraine.

This was reported by “under the table news.” A blog produced by the LA Times

[Buckeyeblue]

13. I think your RCA is good.

Russia didn't have reason to attack Ukraine but this is their reason. Of course the world has changed quite a bit since the early 90's.

What I find interesting is this: Russia knows they are really no match for NATO. It's why they didn't take on a NATO member. But what Russia is trying to do is hold NATO to its pledge not to intervene militarily for a non-NATO member.

As painful as it is NATO has been adamant that they won't fight with Ukraine.

And Putin seems to be exploiting this technically and seems to relish the anguish he is causing the western world. His own economy be damned.

[Tetrachloride]

24. Follow the money. RCA Root Cause Analysis is no good

without full monetary accounting and psychological profile of Putin, his inner circle, oligarchs and a reasonable cross section of the Russian public

[regnaD kciN]

9. Which is why, of course...

…Russia is now invading a country that isn’t part of NATO.

By the way, while we’re talking about past treaties, what about the one from 1994 where Russia guaranteed Ukraine’s independence in exchange for the latter giving up their nuclear arsenal?

One thing’s for certain: if Ukraine either still had nukes or had been a member of NATO, Russia sure wouldn’t be trying to blot out its existence now.

[marie999]

10. In 1990, Secretary of State Baker met with Gorbachev and said that NATO would not move East.

President Bush never agreed to it and no papers were ever signed. A good read is

National Security Archive - NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard

[Igel]

26. Later Gorbachov,

before he was boxed in, said that it wasn't a promise but something that was tentatively agreed upon on the sides--no negotiations, nothing formal.

The other "promise" concerning NATO forces was pre-Warsaw-Bloc collapse, in the context of the WB. No WB, no context for the informal commitment.

Context matters.

[Bev54]

12. So if the leaders of Russia were not dictators and criminals then they would

not care about NATO at their door step. It is like remote cameras everywhere, most of us, it doesn't bother, it is only those that are carrying on illegal activities that don't like them around. So stop blaming the rest of the world who live by the rule of law and democracy, for the failings of the Russian government. The rest of the world is not beholden to their criminal activity.

[BannonsLiver]

14. Vlad approved.

[Igel]

27. Even there,

he reminds me of Dobby.

If only he'd start thwacking his head against a wall.

[Pobeka]

15. This is what Russia wants us to say -- to deflect blame.

Fiona Hill made that quite clear.

If Putin wanted Ukraine back in Russia, what exactly did he to to make it so attractive to join Russia rather than NATO?

-- not a single thing.

This is utter bullshit.

[dixiechiken1]

16. "See what you made me do..."

It's often what an abuser says to their victim. It's called blame shifting and it's bullshit.

[Crunchy Frog]

35. But it's all okay because the abuser had a shitty childhood.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

43. One thing about abusers

Is they choose to abuse people.or countries.
The victims always have no choice regarding being victimized by the sociopath narcissist choosing to inflict harm on them. Freeze,submit,fight back,run away whatever you do the trauma of being attacked will remain...

[maxsolomon]

18. That (undocumented) agreement didn't give Eastern European nations a say.

Last edited Fri Mar 4, 2022, 10:04 PM - Edit history (1)

They wanted the shield of NATO, and it's hard to blame them. The USSR's hegemony was awful. Hungary & Czechoslovakia tried to escape & were punished brutally.

They joined to avoid precisely what is happening to Ukraine (not THE Ukraine).

[Scrivener7]

19. Oh, for fuck's sake.

[Tetrachloride]

22. my my my. how long has Pootie been planning this ?

This issue defenestrates the unprovoked question.

[dalton99a]

37. +1.

[tritsofme]

23. Warmed over Putinista propaganda and apologia. Disappointing to see this here as anything

but as a source of ridicule.

[PortTack]

30. +1000

[Celerity]

40. Wow, George F. Kennan, father of the Truman doctrine and the US Cold War policy of containment

cast as a 'Putinista' and a Ruskie apologist. Who woulda thunk it?

lolol

Btw, Kennan was 6 weeks shy of turning 96 years old (he died in 2005 at the age of 101) when Putin took the whip hand of power in Russia Dec 31, 1999.

[Crunchy Frog]

25. I do think that our handling of the Soviet breakup was badly botched,

and I felt that way at the time, but. So fucking what? We fucked up with Germany at the end of WWI with the Versailles Treaty too. Did that in any way change the reality or meaning of Hitler's attack on Poland? Would we have gained anything from sitting around beating ourselves up for it?

Whatever we may have done wrong 30 years ago, it ultimately isn't relevant to the crime that is happening today.

This is interesting as a historical aside, but in the face of the current crisis it's basically just masturbation.

[orwell]

28. Bullshit...

"The story starts at the end of the Cold War, when the US was the only global hegemon. As part of the deal that finalized the reunification of Germany, the US promised Russia that NATO would not expand 'one inch eastward.'"

Utter bullshit. If you are going to post at least get your facts straight. No such promise was ever made. It was proffered as a talking point by Jim Baker to Gorbachev. It was never agreed upon or written in any treaty. Even Gorbachev has confirmed this.

Now Putin is using this bullshit talking point as the basis for his slaughter of innocents and the destruction of a neighbor.

He is a more balanced recollection of the talks:

https://www.voanews.com/a/russia-putin-western-leaders-nato-expansion/6392427.html

No treaty to this effect was ever signed.

Remember that when Ukraine gave up it's nuclear arsenal, the 3rd largest in the world at the time, they were assured by the US, the UK AND the Russian federation that they would be protected from foreign invasion. It's called the Budapest Memorandum

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/Part/volume-3007-I-52241.pdf

Please fact check before you post.

[Renew Deal]

32. Russia didn't want NATO in Ukraine because they planned to invade eventually.

NATO could have deterred that.

[Wingus Dingus]

38. Right. He made it clear he doesn't think Ukraine has a right to be its own country

but is instead a natural part of Russia. "Fear of NATO" is just an excuse to land-grab. He's angry NATO exists but works around it just fine.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

33. Calling the country "The Ukraine" is the Russian way of trying to own it. Please don't.

Like America owns The Midwest and The South. But it is not The Mexico.

[jcgoldie]

34. bullshit

Trying to justify the actions of a murderous dictator killing civilians in a neighboring democracy based on some international negotiations from 30 years ago? This is embarrassing. It reeks of the kind of shit Nazis used to justify aggression leading up to WWII.

Turn on the fucking television and take a look at little girls in mouse eared stocking caps and pink jackets standing in the street holding hands as Russian tanks flatten entire apartment complexes and schools before you post this embarrassing rationalization again.

[dalton99a]

36. The author conveniently left out the Budapest agreement

signed by Russia in December 1994 - AFTER the NATO expansion

[BumRushDaShow]

39. Usually the RW "AIM" ("Accuracy In Media" ) pens stuff like this

but I am surprised that FAIR did.

[Tetrachloride]

41. ty to all replies in this thread. Enlightening.

i didn’t know about the Budapest Agreement especially . What I knew wasn’t close to knowing “enough “

[Wingus Dingus]

42. Have we failed to coddle the dictator's delicate psyche in the manner

that he wishes? Did we not hustle enough to meet his demands? I feel so bad about that.