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Donkees

(31,333 posts)
Tue Mar 8, 2022, 06:08 AM Mar 2022

⚡️Zelensky: "International Committee of the Red Cross is forbidding us to use their emblem ...

The Kyiv Independent@KyivIndependent·38s⚡️Zelensky: "International Committee of the Red Cross is forbidding us to use their emblem on the humanitarian mission vehicles.

It's very revealing. Some influential people would rather 'cross out' Ukraine."

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⚡️Zelensky: "International Committee of the Red Cross is forbidding us to use their emblem ... (Original Post) Donkees Mar 2022 OP
The red cross and red crescent emblems are protected symbols elleng Mar 2022 #1
I know. Children are being killed as civilians are targeted in a terror campaign. Donkees Mar 2022 #3
Putin isn't exactly playing by the rules of the Geneva convention, gab13by13 Mar 2022 #14
I served in the USAF during 65-69. usaf-vet Mar 2022 #22
Doctors Without Boarders is a much better organization mucifer Mar 2022 #27
Hmm... Mike Nelson Mar 2022 #2
Red Cross main concern is to protect an emblem Donkees Mar 2022 #4
An emblem which ostensibly protects its wearer under international law. FreepFryer Mar 2022 #5
Yeah. The Red Cross has a very legitimate concern stopdiggin Mar 2022 #26
Not another fucking dime. denbot Mar 2022 #6
I agree Duncanpup Mar 2022 #9
Yellow Cross ? just a thought. and the Red Cross has its #%#*# Tetrachloride Mar 2022 #7
OMG robleb Mar 2022 #8
That could spoil the importance of The Red Cross ... TomWilm Mar 2022 #16
but it would be free advertising... Crazyleftie Mar 2022 #10
Fuck 'em. I haven't given to Red Cross for years. Use the emblems, Ukraine. Rabrrrrrr Mar 2022 #11
Yes, they should go ahead and use them w/o their permission KS Toronado Mar 2022 #18
Being contrary to President Zelensky is beyond counterintuitive. littlemissmartypants Mar 2022 #12
My dad was a WWII veteran he had no use for the doc03 Mar 2022 #13
Same with my dad and uncles who said that the Red Cross charged them money for coffee Liberal In Texas Mar 2022 #19
Heard the same from Battle of the Bulge veterans Donkees Mar 2022 #20
They said they would give coffee and cigarettss away doc03 Mar 2022 #25
Same with my father, he talked about how they charged money for food to the service men Raine Mar 2022 #21
Then why don't the Red Cross themselves use it in Ukraine? panader0 Mar 2022 #15
They are, as is Red Crescent. WhiskeyGrinder Mar 2022 #23
Is there a link to any news organization Progressive dog Mar 2022 #17
Is there any good reason for this ? JI7 Mar 2022 #24
Time to add some facts to this discussion. Jirel Mar 2022 #28
They've turned it into a religion. Donkees Mar 2022 #29
Thanks for this Jirel. Karma13612 Mar 2022 #30
This message was self-deleted by its author Mary in S. Carolina Mar 2022 #31

elleng

(130,732 posts)
1. The red cross and red crescent emblems are protected symbols
Tue Mar 8, 2022, 06:16 AM
Mar 2022

under international humanitarian law and national laws. Any use that is not expressly authorized by the Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols constitutes a misuse of the emblem. Use of these emblems by unauthorized persons is strictly forbidden.

https://www.icrc.org/en/copyright-and-terms-use#:~:text=The%20red%20cross%20and%20red,unauthorized%20persons%20is%20strictly%20forbidden.

gab13by13

(21,256 posts)
14. Putin isn't exactly playing by the rules of the Geneva convention,
Tue Mar 8, 2022, 08:40 AM
Mar 2022

it is also strictly forbidden to kill civilians, to kill little kids. Just asking the Red Cross a question, if allowing the use of the symbol in this one instance prevented a few war crimes, is it worth it?

usaf-vet

(6,161 posts)
22. I served in the USAF during 65-69.
Tue Mar 8, 2022, 09:37 AM
Mar 2022

During the Tet Offensive, the call went out on all military bases the need for blood. As a medic at the time, we were the ones who set up the blood donation centers on bases. And we did all of the blood draws from the military personnel and the base civilian donors. The red cross did the paperwork. All of the blood donations were flown to Vietnam by military transports.

We were later told that the red cross CHARGED the government for each pint sent to our wound in Vietnam.

Since that experience, I have never participated in a red cross blood campaign. I have donated blood when family and friends have a need.

Troops on the ground in Vietnam were known to say if they broke a rule or faced an Article 15 for an infraction, "WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO TO ME...SEND ME TO VIETNAM?"

I think that attitude should be expressed in Ukraine today. USE the RED CROSS emblem where ever it can help save lives. What are they going to do to those on the ground facing bombs?

I still have a bad taste in my mouth with regards to the red cross and this only confirms my feelings.

Mike Nelson

(9,944 posts)
2. Hmm...
Tue Mar 8, 2022, 06:18 AM
Mar 2022

... probably a Red Cross policy. Still, I would use the emblem. The Russians are not following policies. The invasion was a war crime.



stopdiggin

(11,242 posts)
26. Yeah. The Red Cross has a very legitimate concern
Tue Mar 8, 2022, 09:56 AM
Mar 2022
and a legitimate point. Zelensky is just flat wrong on this one (and is probably plenty smart enough to know it). If it ain't a Red Cross vehicle/operation - don't put the RC signage on it.

robleb

(162 posts)
8. OMG
Tue Mar 8, 2022, 07:31 AM
Mar 2022

no doubt, let's protect a effing trademark and not human life.
an organization that has lost its soul.

TomWilm

(1,832 posts)
16. That could spoil the importance of The Red Cross ...
Tue Mar 8, 2022, 08:49 AM
Mar 2022

... which is to be NEUTRAL. This have gotten them in to do civil aid in highly tense situation, like in prisoner camps and besieged cities. Ukraine is welcome to cooperate with any other aid organization, which is willing to work without this protection of neutrality.

Ukraine also need better advisers, so the president stops shouting out such nonsense.

Rabrrrrrr

(58,347 posts)
11. Fuck 'em. I haven't given to Red Cross for years. Use the emblems, Ukraine.
Tue Mar 8, 2022, 08:26 AM
Mar 2022

Let the Red Cross try to sue you later. I'd love to see that.

I know there are laws about using red cross symbol; but considering how goddamn stupid and ignorant war is, I don't care.

All these damn laws about how war can be conducted. How about a law against it?

Argh!!!!!!! Sometimes I hate humanity.

KS Toronado

(17,147 posts)
18. Yes, they should go ahead and use them w/o their permission
Tue Mar 8, 2022, 08:58 AM
Mar 2022

I question if the Red Cross would sue over the issue, this makes them look like hypocrites.
Whoever in their organization refused the use should be fired for being stupid & uncaring.

littlemissmartypants

(22,569 posts)
12. Being contrary to President Zelensky is beyond counterintuitive.
Tue Mar 8, 2022, 08:29 AM
Mar 2022
I don't care if you are "the red cross" it's a bad idea.

In the spirit of being fair and balanced...




🌻🇺🇦❤🇺🇦🌻



doc03

(35,295 posts)
13. My dad was a WWII veteran he had no use for the
Tue Mar 8, 2022, 08:38 AM
Mar 2022

Red Cross and I have heard many other veterans say the same.

Liberal In Texas

(13,531 posts)
19. Same with my dad and uncles who said that the Red Cross charged them money for coffee
Tue Mar 8, 2022, 09:01 AM
Mar 2022

and donuts in combat areas. They wouldn't have anything to do with the RC after the war.

doc03

(35,295 posts)
25. They said they would give coffee and cigarettss away
Tue Mar 8, 2022, 09:49 AM
Mar 2022

on the front lines when they had a camera crew with them. But they would sell them everywhere else.

Raine

(30,540 posts)
21. Same with my father, he talked about how they charged money for food to the service men
Tue Mar 8, 2022, 09:07 AM
Mar 2022

they never gave anything, they always made them pay.

Jirel

(2,014 posts)
28. Time to add some facts to this discussion.
Tue Mar 8, 2022, 10:17 AM
Mar 2022

First, here is an actual article about the “controversy.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/russia-dangles-prospect-of-safe-corridors-ukraine-skeptical/2022/03/08/e7a9f746-9e9e-11ec-9438-255709b6cddc_story.html

Second, here is a link to a summary of the Geneva Conventions (plural) that comes from a trusted legal source, not ICRC’s website that is written to promote the protection of its trademark and to make it sound like the Rules of the Geneva Conventions are all about them. Notably, the use of the red cross, crescent, and diamond is reserved to signify neutral status and protection of medical services and volunteers.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/geneva_conventions_and_their_additional_protocols

Third, here’s a link to the one HONEST ICRC page about protection of the Red Cross logo, in which it explains that it’s all about copyright protection:
https://www.icrc.org/en/copyright-and-terms-use

Russia and Ukraine are both signatories of the 4 Geneva Conventions and Protocol 1. https://www.rulac.org/browse/conflicts/international-armed-conflict-in-ukraine#collapse3accord

To summarize the situation: The original Geneva Convention in 1864 was initiated by a group of people who became the actual ICRC, to protect the Red Cross as a symbol of neutral status and protection of medical services and volunteers in wartime.

The Geneva Conventions are treaties. Their application is not universal, because not all countries have signed the conventions. Treaties only (theoretically, since actual international enforcement of treaties is dicey at best) apply to the signatories.

The use of the symbols of the Red Cross, crescent, and diamond are reserved for these aid activities, NOT FOR THE USE BY THE ICRC ITSELF, under the conventions. The ICRC actually causes a problem by trademarking these symbols all over the world for its personal use. On one hand, there is a good reason to do so, to prevent the symbols from being used so widely that they are no longer reserved for aid activities and can not be trusted to mean just that, anywhere they are used. On the other hand, it lets the ICRC get mighty heavy-handed in protecting its own personal interests rather than the use of the symbols to mean what they’re supposed to mean in combat.

The ICRC itself has only one specific place within the Geneva Conventions - Convention 3 guarantees them the right to offer services in conflicts where, of course, signatories are involved.

So what does this all mean?

Getting civilians out of a city to a safe zone during active Russian attack on the city is definitely an aid activity for civilians. Is it truly neutral? Lots of ways to argue that if the buses weren’t arranged by a neutral 3rd party, but the corridors were arranged between Ukraine and non-combatant nations to evacuate fleeing civilians. There are volunteers involved from multiple nations including Ukraine. But remember, Putin is ignoring any idea of neutrality by using language that anyone who is aiding Ukraine might as well be declaring war. Nothing official in terms of Putin declaring a state of war with Poland, Sweden, et al, but he has thrown the idea of neutrality out the window.

Overall, Zelenskiy and the nations and orgs helping evacuate people from besieged cities would be using the symbol correctly. The ICRC has no claim to sole use of it, or to determine when it can be used, except through a series of trademarks it now jealously protects, because if you don’t protect your trademark, legally you pretty much lose it. That means they have lawyers in every nation OVER-protecting their personal interests, not enforcing use under the Geneva Convention definitions in a neutral manner.

Trademark law is not appropriate for enforcing treaty definitions. It is never created to protect 3rd parties or a symbol/document/whatever that is not property of a person seeking financial profit from it.

Zelenskiy is right to tell the ICRC to shove it, and quit butting its trademark interests into using a symbol in a way that it is intended for ANY non-combatant aid services and volunteers in a time of war.

Karma13612

(4,541 posts)
30. Thanks for this Jirel.
Tue Mar 8, 2022, 10:45 AM
Mar 2022

You seem to be the Whisperer on this topic. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

Ukraine needs cooperation, not more red tape and big “no you can’t”s because they aren’t in the EU or NATO, etc etc. And then they pile this on tip of everything else.

I feel like this is a situation where a poor, frail, older adult is walking down the street. Not their neighborhood, and no friends with them. A bully beastly thug attacks them, and leaves them for dead. Many watched in horror. No one did anything because “rules”, or “foreign” or some such nonsense.

So sick of this.

Response to Donkees (Original post)

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