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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums⚡️Zelensky: "International Committee of the Red Cross is forbidding us to use their emblem ...
The Kyiv Independent@KyivIndependent·38s⚡️Zelensky: "International Committee of the Red Cross is forbidding us to use their emblem on the humanitarian mission vehicles.
It's very revealing. Some influential people would rather 'cross out' Ukraine."
elleng
(130,732 posts)under international humanitarian law and national laws. Any use that is not expressly authorized by the Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols constitutes a misuse of the emblem. Use of these emblems by unauthorized persons is strictly forbidden.
https://www.icrc.org/en/copyright-and-terms-use#:~:text=The%20red%20cross%20and%20red,unauthorized%20persons%20is%20strictly%20forbidden.
Donkees
(31,333 posts)gab13by13
(21,256 posts)it is also strictly forbidden to kill civilians, to kill little kids. Just asking the Red Cross a question, if allowing the use of the symbol in this one instance prevented a few war crimes, is it worth it?
usaf-vet
(6,161 posts)During the Tet Offensive, the call went out on all military bases the need for blood. As a medic at the time, we were the ones who set up the blood donation centers on bases. And we did all of the blood draws from the military personnel and the base civilian donors. The red cross did the paperwork. All of the blood donations were flown to Vietnam by military transports.
We were later told that the red cross CHARGED the government for each pint sent to our wound in Vietnam.
Since that experience, I have never participated in a red cross blood campaign. I have donated blood when family and friends have a need.
Troops on the ground in Vietnam were known to say if they broke a rule or faced an Article 15 for an infraction, "WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO TO ME...SEND ME TO VIETNAM?"
I think that attitude should be expressed in Ukraine today. USE the RED CROSS emblem where ever it can help save lives. What are they going to do to those on the ground facing bombs?
I still have a bad taste in my mouth with regards to the red cross and this only confirms my feelings.
mucifer
(23,478 posts)They are amazing. Not as large as the red cross by any means.
Mike Nelson
(9,944 posts)... probably a Red Cross policy. Still, I would use the emblem. The Russians are not following policies. The invasion was a war crime.
Donkees
(31,333 posts)FreepFryer
(7,077 posts)Its important.
stopdiggin
(11,242 posts)denbot
(9,898 posts)Done, Ill give blood if needed, but done with the international branch.
Tetrachloride
(7,816 posts)no doubt, let's protect a effing trademark and not human life.
an organization that has lost its soul.
TomWilm
(1,832 posts)... which is to be NEUTRAL. This have gotten them in to do civil aid in highly tense situation, like in prisoner camps and besieged cities. Ukraine is welcome to cooperate with any other aid organization, which is willing to work without this protection of neutrality.
Ukraine also need better advisers, so the president stops shouting out such nonsense.
Crazyleftie
(458 posts)think of the cash of would generate......
Rabrrrrrr
(58,347 posts)Let the Red Cross try to sue you later. I'd love to see that.
I know there are laws about using red cross symbol; but considering how goddamn stupid and ignorant war is, I don't care.
All these damn laws about how war can be conducted. How about a law against it?
Argh!!!!!!! Sometimes I hate humanity.
KS Toronado
(17,147 posts)I question if the Red Cross would sue over the issue, this makes them look like hypocrites.
Whoever in their organization refused the use should be fired for being stupid & uncaring.
littlemissmartypants
(22,569 posts)In the spirit of being fair and balanced...
Explainer: why protecting the Red Cross emblem matters
https://theconversation.com/explainer-why-protecting-the-red-cross-emblem-matters-58145
🌻🇺🇦❤🇺🇦🌻
doc03
(35,295 posts)Red Cross and I have heard many other veterans say the same.
Liberal In Texas
(13,531 posts)and donuts in combat areas. They wouldn't have anything to do with the RC after the war.
Donkees
(31,333 posts)doc03
(35,295 posts)on the front lines when they had a camera crew with them. But they would sell them everywhere else.
Raine
(30,540 posts)they never gave anything, they always made them pay.
panader0
(25,816 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,307 posts)Progressive dog
(6,899 posts)or even the red cross reporting this? I could find none. This is all I could find.
https://www.wavy.com/news/world/ukrainian-red-cross-warns-of-fake-accounts-asking-for-donations/
JI7
(89,239 posts)Jirel
(2,014 posts)First, here is an actual article about the controversy.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/russia-dangles-prospect-of-safe-corridors-ukraine-skeptical/2022/03/08/e7a9f746-9e9e-11ec-9438-255709b6cddc_story.html
Second, here is a link to a summary of the Geneva Conventions (plural) that comes from a trusted legal source, not ICRCs website that is written to promote the protection of its trademark and to make it sound like the Rules of the Geneva Conventions are all about them. Notably, the use of the red cross, crescent, and diamond is reserved to signify neutral status and protection of medical services and volunteers.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/geneva_conventions_and_their_additional_protocols
Third, heres a link to the one HONEST ICRC page about protection of the Red Cross logo, in which it explains that its all about copyright protection:
https://www.icrc.org/en/copyright-and-terms-use
Russia and Ukraine are both signatories of the 4 Geneva Conventions and Protocol 1. https://www.rulac.org/browse/conflicts/international-armed-conflict-in-ukraine#collapse3accord
To summarize the situation: The original Geneva Convention in 1864 was initiated by a group of people who became the actual ICRC, to protect the Red Cross as a symbol of neutral status and protection of medical services and volunteers in wartime.
The Geneva Conventions are treaties. Their application is not universal, because not all countries have signed the conventions. Treaties only (theoretically, since actual international enforcement of treaties is dicey at best) apply to the signatories.
The use of the symbols of the Red Cross, crescent, and diamond are reserved for these aid activities, NOT FOR THE USE BY THE ICRC ITSELF, under the conventions. The ICRC actually causes a problem by trademarking these symbols all over the world for its personal use. On one hand, there is a good reason to do so, to prevent the symbols from being used so widely that they are no longer reserved for aid activities and can not be trusted to mean just that, anywhere they are used. On the other hand, it lets the ICRC get mighty heavy-handed in protecting its own personal interests rather than the use of the symbols to mean what theyre supposed to mean in combat.
The ICRC itself has only one specific place within the Geneva Conventions - Convention 3 guarantees them the right to offer services in conflicts where, of course, signatories are involved.
So what does this all mean?
Getting civilians out of a city to a safe zone during active Russian attack on the city is definitely an aid activity for civilians. Is it truly neutral? Lots of ways to argue that if the buses werent arranged by a neutral 3rd party, but the corridors were arranged between Ukraine and non-combatant nations to evacuate fleeing civilians. There are volunteers involved from multiple nations including Ukraine. But remember, Putin is ignoring any idea of neutrality by using language that anyone who is aiding Ukraine might as well be declaring war. Nothing official in terms of Putin declaring a state of war with Poland, Sweden, et al, but he has thrown the idea of neutrality out the window.
Overall, Zelenskiy and the nations and orgs helping evacuate people from besieged cities would be using the symbol correctly. The ICRC has no claim to sole use of it, or to determine when it can be used, except through a series of trademarks it now jealously protects, because if you dont protect your trademark, legally you pretty much lose it. That means they have lawyers in every nation OVER-protecting their personal interests, not enforcing use under the Geneva Convention definitions in a neutral manner.
Trademark law is not appropriate for enforcing treaty definitions. It is never created to protect 3rd parties or a symbol/document/whatever that is not property of a person seeking financial profit from it.
Zelenskiy is right to tell the ICRC to shove it, and quit butting its trademark interests into using a symbol in a way that it is intended for ANY non-combatant aid services and volunteers in a time of war.
Donkees
(31,333 posts)Karma13612
(4,541 posts)You seem to be the Whisperer on this topic. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Ukraine needs cooperation, not more red tape and big no you cants because they arent in the EU or NATO, etc etc. And then they pile this on tip of everything else.
I feel like this is a situation where a poor, frail, older adult is walking down the street. Not their neighborhood, and no friends with them. A bully beastly thug attacks them, and leaves them for dead. Many watched in horror. No one did anything because rules, or foreign or some such nonsense.
So sick of this.
Response to Donkees (Original post)
Mary in S. Carolina This message was self-deleted by its author.