Ted Lieu and Adam Kinzinger on the Pentagon's refusal to transfer MiG jets from Poland to Ukraine.

[femmedem]

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[mainer]

1. W.T.F.

I am about to explode with rage.

[Deuxcents]

4. As am I..

[Pepsidog]

56. Here we go again. Gonna hear how weak Dems are. Lunch Putin in the face while we can.

[dchill]

2. I'm with Ted. Always.

[femmedem]

5. One of our best.

And I disagree with Kinzinger on plenty of policies but I admire his willingness to speak the truth.

[dchill]

6. I agree with you, too.

[onecaliberal]

3. :

[AntiFascist]

7. K&R! n/t

[PortTack]

8. Come on..let's get this done

[Budi]

9. Who at the Pentagon made this decision?

[AntiFascist]

10. Someone in the pocket of Russian oligarch? n/t

[uponit7771]

13. Flynn's brother I bet

[woodsprite]

51. Flynn's brother maybe? nt

[former9thward]

22. The White House

Decisions like this are not made independently.

[Budi]

32. Sounds as tho the Pentagon had a major decision in this move.

Who from the Pentagon advised & decided it was a no-go?
I realize that at every moment all decisions are subject to changing on a dime, as it involves leaving nothing vulnerable for Putin to use to blame or draw in the US. And yes we know its been his wish from the beginning.

Perhaps it was changed on intel or something that would allow Putin, in his desperate state of global affairs right now, to shift the entire blame on the US.
Its all a fine line right now, so I'll give them that.

Something affected the reverse decision.

[Takket]

11. why the US?

I understand from some reading that Poland wants old F-16s from the US in exchange for giving up their Migs, but why does the US need to take possession of the Migs? Can't we just agree to send the F-16s, and Poland gets them to the Ukraine? Does Poland want the US to offically make the transfer because it is "safer" for them in case Putin wants to retaliate?

I would imagine the US is concerned with Putin potentially escalating nuclear rhetoric if the US personally flies the planes to Ukraine? Or are we concerned with American pilots being shot down?

Can't we tell Ukraine to send a plane to our base full of pilot and they can fly the planes back themselves?

I think we should do this. I don't really see a threat here of WW3 erupting over the transfer of these jets. Is this any "worse" in Putin's eyes than all the weapons we already gave Ukraine? And the sanctions destroying Russia's economy?

[IronLionZion]

29. Too much risk

Russia warned whoever sends the jets to Ukraine will be considered a hostile aggressor. Poland figured it might be safer to have the US handle it through Germany. They're worried that sending it directly from Poland would have Putin turn his ire towards them next.

[KS Toronado]

49. Is this what's holding up the show?

"Russia warned whoever sends the jets to Ukraine will be considered a hostile aggressor"

A threat from a dictator who's asked 3 other countries to join him in his war? Fuck him, bullies threaten alot, ignore
him, send Ukrainian pilots over to Poland and fly the planes back they just found at "Honest Joe's Used Airplanes"
for $1 apiece. And Joe, allow them a charge account.

[Eliot Rosewater]

12. Joe, pick up the phone, order them to do it and do it NOW

[uponit7771]

14. +1,

[jcgoldie]

16. I think he will

He feels the weight of this moment in history and that was what today was about.

[Cognitive_Resonance]

15. Poland stepped-up, but they want U.S. skin in the game. Pentagon says nyet! nt

[Budi]

36. "Pentagon says "nyet". " Means what exactly?....

ick.

[Cognitive_Resonance]

45. Looks like Poland called a bluff. DoD wasn't onboard. Unclear what's really going on. nt

[monkeyman1]

54. when I was in the service , D.O.D.-- dept .of dumbells !!

[gulliver]

17. I want to hear what Lieu's and Kinzinger's "substantive rationale" is

What would be the benefit of Poland's proposal? Why should we ignore "serious concerns for the entire NATO alliance?"

[ancianita]

18. It could be that both Biden, Pentagon are playing this for their one man audience.

And that everyone else's job is to act like our military policy is in fear and disarray. Meantime, what Poland and Ukraine do is "out of our hands," and "those nations just won't listen."

We are usually much more on top of things than we let on to the world, especially to Putin.

[gay texan]

24. I have to agree with this

In a situation like this every-single-freaking-move is calculated.

There is WAY more going on behind the scenes.

[ancianita]

35. The very strength of our strategy is that we play as if we don't strategize.

China is watching because it respects exactly that.

[kentuck]

50. I tend to agree...

...that there is more going on that we do not know. We can only theorize.

[AlexSFCA]

19. what's going on, Pentagon doesn't want to share jets with Poland?

[sinkingfeeling]

20. I agree 100% with Ted and Adam. Stop giving in to Putin.

[Beaverhausen]

21. You know Putin has nukes, right?

Lots of them.

I don’t think we should give him an excuse to use them.

[ancianita]

37. You know we got nukes, right? It's who strikes fastest and first. HE better not give US an excuse.

[Pepsidog]

57. At this point I wonder if Putin's nukes might blow up in his face like the war so far.

[SergeStorms]

58. They have more missiles....

as if that means anything when we have M.A.D. between us.

I envision the table in the sitrep room full of Intel people, joint Chiefs, Biden, Harris, State Dept. various Russia experts, and maybe even some head shrinkers, all with input into these decisions. This is much too grave a decision to be made by one person. In the end, it may come down to a decision by Biden alone, but we haven't reached that point yet.

No one will be getting much sleep for the foreseeable future, and what they do get will be fitful. Putin will sleep like a baby. That's the difference between people with sanity and a raving psychopath.

[ancianita]

60. More isn't faster. We have more anti-missile power. His are circled around Moscow.

You're right, though. Biden alone, yes, because he wouldn't be president if he couldn't decide.
Only true leaders lose sleep over loss of human life.

Because Putin's a psychopath, the biggest question for me now is whether he will nuke anyway because he's been hit beyond recovery, and whether the group you define have all their anti-missile capability on DEFCON 2 or 1. Those closest to Putin in Moscow who want to live might leak intel to help us know what he'll do now.

[PatrickforB]

23. My understanding of this is that Poland is sending the MIGs and we will

backfill the gap this leaves in their airforce with F16s.

It is a good idea, because the Ukrainian pilots are trained on MIGs.

As to flying them into the 'airspace', not sure how else we'd get them there. But the Ukrainians need them. Bad.

Imagine your whole life disrupted by an invading force, house destroyed, job gone, hungry, no clean water, no services, no schools, shelling, shooting...all because of a megalomaniac like Putin who thinks he can just march in.

He needs to be opposed every step of the way, because opposing him now will prevent a much larger war in future.

Let's let the Poles send the MIGs. For God's sake.

[James48]

25. The real problem here is:

If they take off from a NATO country and go to a Ukrainian airport, i think that would not trigger WWIII.

But if they took off from a NATO country, and went and shot down a Russian, then Russia could say we are all at war.

[ancianita]

38. Yeah. Well you might be explaining their thinking, but seriously,

let's stop pretending we're not at war. We are.

Putin knows that Putin's Russia is no less vulnerable than we are.

Let's stop pretending we worry what Putin will say.

[LudwigPastorius]

42. Pretending we are not at war is the only thing preventing us from actually being at war.

That was what the entire Cold War was about, and this pretending has kept the U.S. and Russia from exterminating the human race for going on 75 years now.

[ancianita]

43. I hear you. Point taken. But now Putin's daring the world to stop his war.

We either defend democracy or we don't. We don't wait 'til war reaches our shores, we take the war to its root cause. Sooner or later, as Ukraine goes, so the EU goes.

[LudwigPastorius]

46. "as Ukraine goes, so the EU goes."

Nope because, if Putin attacks a NATO country, he's signing his death warrant. He knows this

[ancianita]

52. Like I said.

IF? I'm not talking about a hypothetical that hasn't happened yet, but on-the-ground cause-effect.

He might attack anyway if he believes he and Russia have nothing more to lose.

[Joinfortmill]

26. Just do it.

[Hulk]

27. This could be a little dicey......

May not be quite as simple as Poland passing on an old hat. Think about it.....

[Gore1FL]

28. Can't we put them on Trucks? nt

[IronLionZion]

31. Russia will hit them with air strikes while on the ground

there's no time for that. Ukrainian pilots need to go to Poland, or Germany or wherever, and fly them to Ukraine.

[DallasNE]

30. Loose Lips Sink Ships

Poland's yammering reminded me of that saying. There is a right way and a wrong way to go about this and Poland chose the wrong way and that has surely delayed the transfer. Work out the details in private.

[Budi]

34. Yup. A misstep in communication, & the situation cannot afford that right now.

[Whiskeytide]

33. Tomorrow, Jen P should say: " Shit. A bunch of Ukrainian ...

… pilots snuck into Germany last night and freakin’ stole a bunch of planes and sausage. I swear”. Problem solved.

Edited for a typo.

[boyedav1969]

39. It's not impossible to think

That the pentagon's public position on this is different than what they are doing behind the scenes. Theatrics are part of war. Keeping the enemy guessing about what you are or aren't doing.

[LudwigPastorius]

40. It's called "plausible deniability" and it is to prevent the escalation into nuclear war.

I'm not a lawyer, but the Pentagon has a shitload of them, as well as strategists. Planes launching from a NATO base into Ukraine, that fired on Russian planes en route, would be a direct act of war.

I think the Pentagon got this one right.

[kentuck]

41. The solution is:

To immediately bring Ukraine into NATO.

Then, they would all be a part of NATO and there would be an obligation to assist Ukraine in every way possible in defending themselves and their country. It doesn't matter where the planes come from. Everyone is equally responsible. Why would Poland need to send their MIG-29's to Ramstein, Germany? Maybe that is where the pilots need to be trained? Who knows?

Putin has declared war on us all. It is too criminal to look the other way. He must change his course. He must be defeated. History teaches that he is a threat to us all.

[ancianita]

44. Well that means that we'd have a NATO-Russia war. Would China stand by? Maybe.

[Mariana]

64. The US can't just "immediately bring Ukraine into NATO".

Every member nation has to agree. From Article 10 of the North Atlantic Treaty:

The Parties may, by unanimous agreement, invite any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area to accede to this Treaty.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm

[Shanti Shanti Shanti]

47. Why the fuck are operational national security matters being spouted all over fucking twitter???

JFC, just do the shit behind the curtain, under the table, behind closed doors, NOT TELLING THE ENEMY YOUR MOVES ON FUCKING TWITTER!

[vsrazdem]

48. IMHO, if they are playing this out in public, there is most likely another scenario going on

in private, like maybe more sophisticated drones being sent. Otherwise, I have to come to the conclusion that the pentagon is sitting in the wind with their thumbs up their asses while women and children are being murdered, and that one is a little hard to take. I find it hard to believe that this takes days and days to make a decision. It makes me wonder if any military in the world has it together, because from what I've so far, its all looking pretty grim and dim.

[radical noodle]

59. I heard someone say today that drones would better serve

the Ukrainians. Drones would be easier to hide from attacks, don't require long runways, need little maintenance, and are easier to fly.

[Cheezoholic]

53. Just my opinion but I believe its smoke and mirrors here

I mean what Mr. Lieu said. How in the hell did the west get all those munitions into Ukraine in the last week?

I watch a lot of these ADS-B "radar" sites because I'm an av-geek. Nearly every day theres a couple NATO Blackhawks, C-130's, Ospreys etc that get within 10 miles of the Ukrainian border and go transponders off dark only to pop back up an hour or two later. ADS-B needs to be taken with a grain of salt because if we can see it on a website surely the Russians see it. There were no less than 5 NATO electronic warfare planes hugging the entire Ukranian border yesterday, surely slamming, jamming and searching for Russian forces land and air. Once again a grain of salt. Are some of these diversionary tactics? Hide and seek? The Russians have begun flying their own version of AWACS out of SW Belarus. Someone else on DU mentioned they saw KC135 tankers flying refuling missions but for what they didnt know. Well we just "found out" a few days ago that the Harry S. Truman carrier battle group was positioned in the North Aegean Sea and were flying sorties along the SW border of Ukraine. Plenty of tanker activity there with nothing else showing up. Been a few B52 passes along the border then they shut off their public transponders, not a common aircraft over Europe.

My point is this stuff is what anyone can see. Whose to say this whole Mig thing is what anyone can see but the real shits going on we cant see. Once again, letting Russia know what NATO "can" do and keeping them guessing what NATO "is" doing. I'd almost bet those MIG's and maybe more are already in country. While most of the C-17 and AN-400 supply flights are going into Rzeszów where does that stuff go from there? Could be anywhere along the border. Could be Polish farmers loading shit up on their tractors at night and crossing giving them to Ukrainian farmers on their tractors. How much of these armaments are going through Moldova? We just don't know. And if the Pentagon is playing the media and us to hide whats really going on that's their job, be it for a righteous conflict such as this or for not so righteous conflicts we've been involved with in the past. Deception and secrecy to convolute and confuse the enemy is their job. And members of congress are great tools to use in that deception.

[Budi]

62. K & R. Thank You. Yours is the only sensible answer there is.

And if the Pentagon is playing the media and us to hide whats really going on that's their job, be it for a righteous conflict such as this or for not so righteous conflicts we've been involved with in the past. Deception and secrecy to convolute and confuse the enemy is their job. And members of congress are great tools to use in that deception.

Thanks.
👍

They ain't obligated to tell any of us a damned thing, & judging by the opinions of the armchair foreign policy 'experts', its best that they don't.

[DFW]

55. Consult fast

And change your belief.

[liberal_patriot_md]

61. My guess

Is that there are some logistical issues to work out first.

Poland jumped the gun a bit.

[halfulglas]

63. Maybe the Pentagon is using the media to hide what they're really doing from the Republicans.