Ukraine must win the war.

[speak easy]

This is pretty obvious, but if Vladimir is stopped/bogged down/loses Ukraine, he will not move on to taking Moldova / Georgia & (shudder) the Baltic States. If the West wins this one, the first 21st century war in Europe is over. In WWII terms, 2014 was the Sudetenland war. 2022 is the Czech Republic. Winning the war in Ukraine will bury Putin's fantasies of empire. And if history is a guide, he is finished - (hey Vlady, what happened to Nikki?)

So why fight / win the war in Ukraine? A: To stop Putin in his tracks ( "know wot I mean" )

[ProudMNDemocrat]

1. The Baltic countries are part of NATO now.

Putin goes there, it is game over for him.

[speak easy]

2. It is a game of chicken.

Putin has spoken about nukes taking Russians 'to heaven'. He may not believe it, but it's out there. Anyway, he loses in Ukraine, the Baltics are academic.

[Chainfire]

6. Do you really believe that NATO will attack Belarus over an invasion of Lithuania?

I don't really think so. As to article 5, we would be saying, "That is some catch, that Catch-22."

[speak easy]

7. ???

say what?

[Chainfire]

9. I am saying that, I don't believe that NATO will declare war, for Russians invading

the Balkan countries for same reasons that we have not created a no-fly zone over Ukraine. If you don't understand the "Catch-22" reference, I would refer you to Joseph Heller.

[speak easy]

11. So ... the end of the world &

like 1939, do we declare war at Poland? Or give up / appease Russia with the Baltics/Poland but say no, at Germany? Say what?

[Chainfire]

12. It is not my desire, but in effect, yes, I think that that is basically where we are.

The real limiting factor, as I see it, is that Putin has now seen that his "invincible" army is not capable of executing a war against the combined power of Western Europe and the US. However, he may still believe that he can bluff his way to the restoration or expansion of the former Soviet Union. Putin's rattling of his nuclear saber has struck fear into the hearts of the West, as long as that weapon remains effective, we are at his mercy. The bluff can only continue for so long before someone calls the game.

We are living in interesting times. I hope that the world and I live long enough to read the history, it should be a real page turner.

[speak easy]

14. The 1980's were a nightmare.

If a lightning strike/ thunder clap woke me up at night, my instinctive thought was WWIII. I believed we had left all of that behind. But no, I am not prepared to give Putin back the Soviet Union nations, let alone the Warsaw Pact (Your-Milage-May-Vary - and I respect that).

[MarineCombatEngineer]

13. What you believe and what's reality are 2 far different things.

If NATO didn't come to the defense of a NATO country, then NATO is done.

Make no mistake, if Putin steps one boot on a NATO member's soil, then the Russian army will be destroyed and the Russian Generals know this, even if Putin, or you, don't believe it.

[Beetwasher.]

16. Yup, Absolutely 100% Spot On, NATO WILL Militarily DEFEND All NATO Allies, Not a Shred of Doubt

[MarineCombatEngineer]

17. +100. nt

[Beetwasher.]

15. You're Damn Right They Will, Absolutely, Not a Single Doubt in my Mind, Yes, NATO Will Militarily

Defend all NATO countries. They damn sure will. They will DEFEND Lithuania, not ATTACK Belarus. They will drive the forces OUT of Lithuania and keep them out, should Belarus be so foolish.

[Chainfire]

18. Well, we shall disagree, and hope that we don't find out.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

21. That would be the ultimate outcome,

hopefully with Putin being removed by the Russian Military or the Oligarchs and either brought before the ICC or being buried in an unmarked grave, the former being my choice, but I won't lose any sleep if the latter comes to pass.

[lagomorph777]

19. That is precisely the function of NATO. To mutually defend its members against the Soviet Bloc.

So, hell yes, of course NATO would intervene.

[Chainfire]

22. I got it. I will believe it when I see it. No faith based politics here.

[Chainfire]

3. A "win" that we envision for Ukraine is in effect just a stalemate.

A return to the pre invasion condition. A win would involve the return of Crimea, war reparations and a neutral buffer zone created between Ukraine and Russia. I suggest that the economic sanctions on Russia should continue until Ukraine gets a "win." In other words, screw Putin.

[speak easy]

5. 1938: I would settle for a Sudetenland stalemate.

[ProudMNDemocrat]

8. Sanctions need to be in place for at least 5 years at the minimum.

It will take that long or longer for Russia to recover. By then, Putin will be gone if not dead.

The terms have to be iron clad and hold.

[Chainfire]

10. Do you think that the American and Western European oligarchs

will accept five years of economic pain? I don't, there is just too much money at play, and money is the only politics that matter any more.

I believe that sanctions should continue to escalate as long as we have the tools available to us and that they should remain in place as long as a war criminal is the CEO of Russia, but, since I am of the pauper class, not the ruling elite, they don't allow me to decide.

If you really want to know how long the sanctions will last, ask someone like Jeff Bezos.

[lagomorph777]

20. I agree that we have to force Russia to let go of its captured territory.

And add in a buffer zone we should take from Russia.