General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsGarland says the Jan. 6 investigation won't end until everyone is held to account
https://www.npr.org/2022/03/10/1085016383/garland-says-the-jan-6-investigation-wont-end-until-everyone-is-held-to-account"We are not avoiding cases that are political or cases that are controversial or sensitive," the attorney general said in an exclusive interview with NPR. "What we are avoiding is making decisions on a political basis, on a partisan basis."
"We begin with the cases that are right in front of us with the overt actions and then we build from there," Garland said. "And that is a process that we will continue to build until we hold everyone accountable who committed criminal acts with respect to January 6."
spanone
(135,630 posts)hlthe2b
(101,702 posts)that will result in the latter.
CrackityJones75
(2,403 posts)I mean sure if you just disregard what he said completely. Maybe he is lying. I dont know. But I dont have reason to believe he is lying. I can be annoyed that it isnt going as quickly as I would like but that doesnt make the man a liar.
hlthe2b
(101,702 posts)Justice (grossly) delayed IS justice denied and we are approaching that. There is still time, but not that much.
CrackityJones75
(2,403 posts)Justice delayed is justice denied? I have always heard a rush to judgement isnt justice.
A rush to justice in fact could weaken the case against the people that need justice applied to them. we have been seeing bigger fish lately and hopefully that comes with cooperation on getting everyone that needs to be held accountable. I dont think the DOJ can just find people guilty of things because we all know what happened even if we all know what happened.
hlthe2b
(101,702 posts)Where have you been for the past five or more decades? Really? You don't know the concept--this ancient legal maxim of justice? One that MLK espoused to desperately try to address civil rights and justice for all people, but predates well before that
Allow me to help (google is your friend)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_delayed_is_justice_denied
Justice delayed is justice denied is an ancient legal concept, but its been cast in stark relief in the last few months. The new pressures of the current pandemic have heightened the reality of inequality and injustice. Systems that most of the world contently ignored have reached a breaking pointor, perhaps, a boiling point. Now is the time that leaders must act to rectify generations of discriminatory systems.
https://www.aspeninstitute.org/blog-posts/justice-delayed-is-justice-denied/
"Justice delayed is justice denied" is a legal maxim meaning that if legal redress is available for a party that has suffered some injury, but is not forthcoming in a timely fashion, it is effectively the same as having no redress at all. This principle is the basis for the right to a speedy trial and similar rights which are meant to expedite the legal system, because it is unfair for the injured party to have to sustain the injury with little hope for resolution. The phrase has become a rallying cry for legal reformers who view courts or governments as acting too slowly in resolving legal issues either because the existing system is too complex or overburdened, or because the issue or party in question lacks political favour.
https://www.definitions.net/definition/justice+delayed+is+justice+denied
MLAA
(17,162 posts)the sarcasm for the other side. Hope your day gets better and I hope justice does pick up speed.
Bless your heart!
ShazzieB
(15,952 posts)I did not know the origins (or should I say oranges?) of that phrase, and now I do.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,361 posts)The definition of delayed can depend on the impatience of the definer.
You do realize that the most significant physical evidence and testimony, evidence that dramatically increases the odds of convictions, has only emerged in the past 6-7 weeks?
I dont consider 6-7 weeks to be that much of a delay for the DOJ to act. The delays in getting to this point were indeed painful, but not at all the fault of Garland and the DOJ.
Since the SCOTUS ruling on Trumps privilege claims, we have seen the release of thousands of documents, including the memos regarding seizure of the voting machines. In addition, the committee has only recently heard testimony from Pences staff, some of whom were in the room when the coup was being plotted.
Now, it looks like Eastman will lose his court battle, and his coup-plotting emails will become part of the record. I dont think Eastman wants to spend the rest of his life in prison, so, with a little more delay to pressure him to flip, we just might get some Justice.
Kudos to Garland for taking the unusual step of issuing a second clarifying statement.
hlthe2b
(101,702 posts)hesitancy, delay, reluctance, I pay attention. As should you.
MineralMan
(146,189 posts)One.
I'm sure he had many, many others.
hlthe2b
(101,702 posts)He is, however, one who formed a post-graduate relationship with him and kept in contact.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,361 posts)Tribe has never, ever prosecuted a case in his entire career.
hlthe2b
(101,702 posts)Joyce Vance, Renato Mariotti as a few examples. Not all have expressed uniform concern over the speed of investigation though they have all commented on their surprise that IF an investigation is ongoing why the "usual" signs of depositions, subpoenas, or incidental information from related court filings etc. have not been evident and at least a few more (Neal Katyal) has expressed concern that Garlands time and practical influences/temperament as the OKC prosecutor has receded to the background over his more recent years as a highly cautious judge--possibly. adding to his reticence to be perceived as "aggressive" in either investigation or prosecution where political consequences are high.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,361 posts)Kirchner has expressed qualified concerns, acknowledging his opinions are based on the absence of public information;
McQuade and Vance have made good cases for prosecution, but, at best, have expressed puzzlement at the lack of public information on the investigation. (Feel free to post links where they directly criticize Garland- every segment Ive seen they always qualify their statements)
Mariotti Im not familiar with.
hlthe2b
(101,702 posts)something it was not.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,361 posts)This back-and-forth started with your assertion that Justice had been grossly delayed, and you eventually invoked Tribe, McQuade et al as expert evidence of your assertion, which, by your own admission, it is not.
Sheesh.
hlthe2b
(101,702 posts)there is none. There are some on this forum who will excoriate Garland and profess that he never intended to prosecute Trump. That is the extreme view that I quite obviously do not share, but with which you are trying to argue with me. It is disingenuous and has no place in terms of tactic here. Enough. Go seek them out. Bye.
hlthe2b
(101,702 posts)Silent3
(15,018 posts)Coup plotters running for Congress can stay in power, gain power by grabbing the House and maybe the Senate in 2022, and use that power to ensure Democrats never win again, making democracy a moot point in 2024.
So maybe, just maybe, some of the big fish spend 6-9 months in jail, if the DoJ gets that far, before a Republican president pardons and releases them all.
Ain't justice grand?
CrackityJones75
(2,403 posts)missed that part.
Silent3
(15,018 posts)...and assorted street rabble when it comes to indictments. Also, the DoJ can't keep all of their activity secret, such as the interviews with the high-profile people that will have to be conducted before any indictments are handed out.
So, yes, it's quite clear between what Garland said, and from all other observable activity, that any high-level indictments before November are incredibly unlikely. Given how slowly any resulting cases would proceed in the courts, convictions before November are essentially impossible.
Justice delayed, justice denied.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,773 posts)The Proud Boys don't seem to have been coordinated with higher ups or very loosely if at all. I think the Oathkeepers conviction (of one) and plea deals in progress by two is much more important. But we shall see.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,361 posts)Only Roger Stone and Alex Jones stand between the Oathkeepers indicted for seditious conspiracy and Trump.
Televised committee hearings start next month. The biggest unanswered question I have is how will the hearings address the complicity of sitting Reps like Gosar, Brooks, MTG, Cawthorn, etc.
Its entirely possible the committee will wrap up before summer is over, and not unfeasible to anticipate some DOJ indictments of some coup architects before the traditional Labor Day cutoff for election year prosecutions.
I dont expect well see any federal indictments of Trump himself until after the midterms.
uponit7771
(90,225 posts)not fooled
(5,791 posts)and the escape clause is "who committed criminal acts"--he can later say yes, there was misconduct but [in his estimation] it didn't rise to the level of "criminal acts."
I wish I could conclude differently but he is going to go down in history as one of the key enablers of the GQPee.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,361 posts)And many of the crimes dont meet the 3 legs of evidentiary requirements to convict on obstruction, (only 4 out of 14 potential charges do) hence the DOJs declining to prosecute.
But again, this thread is about Garlands comments regarding January 6 prosecutions, the SOLs of those wont run out until around 2026.
uponit7771
(90,225 posts)... GZP is putting on democracy here and abroad.
40% rejection rate of ballots in Texas is an example ... that's a lost election for democrats and if they gain the house and senate then there's no stopping them from implementing their anti democracy laws for another 2 years.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/02/11/texas-voting-law-ballots-rejected-poll-watchers/
FoxNewsSucks
(10,375 posts)There's a definite clock ticking. Thanks to being stopped from passing voting laws, republicons will retake and probably keep control.
Furthermore, statutes of limitations are expiring. Open-and-shut cases aren't being prosecuted. Maybe the best example of that is the failure to prosecute MF45 for the Stormy Daniels matter. His signature was on the check. Cohen went to jail, and cooperated. Yet they let that slide.
I'm not ok with letting these criminals off the hook, and won't defend anyone not actively doing every damn thing they can to prosecute.
gab13by13
(20,856 posts)I was called anti-Democratic because I had the audacity to complain about DOJ not prosecuting the fake Cyber Ninja company.
I'm afraid to criticize Alvin Bragg's decision because he's a Democrat.
msfiddlestix
(7,264 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(48,773 posts)hlthe2b
(101,702 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(48,773 posts)hlthe2b
(101,702 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(48,773 posts)It was as succinct as I could be without using words like "smells" that would convey negatives I did not want to express.
hlthe2b
(101,702 posts)way they WANTED it to sound to fit their preformed argument. And no, "delay" does not in any way equate to "over" nor is it "redolent" of such a conclusion.
By comparison, your argument would have had MLK giving up on civil rights rather than pursuing through the "interminable" delays.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,773 posts)I dislike being on the receiving end when others try to "stuff words in my mouth", as I put it.
I probably should not have been quite that terse.
hlthe2b
(101,702 posts)Ohio Joe
(21,653 posts)I mean... This is a mob case with TFG at the top. How quickly do you think such a case should take get to the top guy? After only a year on the case, he is already knocking on Stones door through Joshua James who will be testifying before a grand jury. Seems like it's going at a good pace to me.
hlthe2b
(101,702 posts)with him) certainly believes that it is. Tribe is eloquent and respectful, but he has repeatedly indicated his doubt (along with many others, including former DOJ officials) that DOJ is even actively investigating Trump. And he has confirmed that he has had some contact with Garland, though, of course not providing any details nor revealing such conversations or communications.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16465349
Ohio Joe
(21,653 posts)I'm not seeing anything about no investigation happening or that it is taking too long. I'm not a lawyer so I'm not sure if the investigation is better off the way it is or with a special prosecutor.
hlthe2b
(101,702 posts)right now at work) HAS for the past several months included intermittent discussion of his fears that Garland is leaning towards giving Trump a pass.
Here is his feed online. https://twitter.com/tribelaw Go back several weeks/ months and/or search google for his prior opinion pieces.
Ohio Joe
(21,653 posts)So I did some googling and found this from Jan 7th 2022:
Link to tweet
It does not look to me like Laurence thinks Garland is letting TFG off or not going after him.
hlthe2b
(101,702 posts)Tribe is eloquent and not even remotely a bomb-thrower. He has, however, expressed concerns that Garland is reticent to be move-in any manner some would critique as "aggressive" and has been driven far more by his 20 plus years of judicial temperament, rather than his much earlier years as a prosecutor. Tribe knows him, has communicated with him at least occasionally recently, and is fair-- making him one to which I would listen. See if you can't search later. I'm not registered on Twitter either--thus my use of the online link.
KS Toronado
(16,900 posts)because they're waiting on more people on the lower rungs to point at the top of the ladder. And Garland being
a strict letter of the law type person, will probably wait until magaloons think he's guilty.
gab13by13
(20,856 posts)Mueller got indictments or guilty pleas from;
George Popadopoulas
Paul Manafort
Rick Gates
Michael Flynn
13 Russian Nationals
3 Russian companies
Richard Pinedo
Alex van der Zwaan
Konstantin Kilimnik
12 Russian GRU officers
Michael Cohen
Roger Stone
Sam Patten
Mueller also laid out the evidence to indict Trump for obstruction of justice.
Mueller also laid out the evidence to convict Trump in the Stormy Daniels payoff.
I'm guessing that DOJ has more resources available than Mueller had?
Ohio Joe
(21,653 posts)Mueller started in May 2017
George Popadopoulas - Charged 10/3/2017 - Pled 10/5/2017
Paul Manafort - Charged 10/27/2017 - Pled 9/14/2018
Charged 2/22/2017 - Found Guilty 9/21/2018
Rick Gates - Charged 10/27/2017 - Pled 2/23/2018
Charged 2/22/2018 - Dismissed 2/27/2018
Michael Flynn - Charged 11/30/2017 - 12/1/2017
Michael Cohen - Charged 11/29/2018 - Pled 11/29/2018
Roger Stone - Charged 1/24/2019 - Found guilty 11/15/2019
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_charges_brought_in_the_Special_Counsel_investigation_(2017%E2%80%932019)
Sam Patten - Charged 9/2018 - Pled 4/2019
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Patten
Not sure where you got your info but it is simply not true that Mueller got ll those indictments/guilty pleas in 12 weeks... They all would have had to have happened by 9/2017 and none of them did.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,361 posts)Kind ironic that someone who regularly posts the number of days Garland has failed to prosecute would get numbers wrong
Fiendish Thingy
(15,361 posts)Using your defined timeline, its only been 6-7 weeks since SCOTUS ruled against Trumps privilege claims and thousands of documents were released, and since Pences staff testified to the committee, so by your own definition, shouldnt Garlands team get at least 5-6 more weeks to develop their case on charges infinitely more complex to prosecute?
Beachnutt
(7,187 posts)not saying a rethug will win but just in case....
Silent3
(15,018 posts)...and from what Garland just said, it sounds like that's pretty much a lost cause now.
Republicans, some of whom were certainly active participants, and many of whom were enablers, will be allowed to grab control of the House, possibly the Senate, and then use their power to make Democratic victory in 2024 impossible.
FoxNewsSucks
(10,375 posts)Manchin and Sinema have probably already done that. The voting laws were probably the highest priority things that needed to pass, and they made sure it wouldn't happen.
Stopping the BBB also took away a great deal of accomplishment Democrats could have run on. Also stopped by the same two senators.
kentuck
(110,950 posts)Better than saying nothing, I suppose.
malaise
(267,791 posts)Last edited Thu Mar 10, 2022, 12:25 PM - Edit history (2)
Consequences are coming!
Get thee to the greatest page
gab13by13
(20,856 posts)"We are not avoiding cases that are political or cases that are controversial or sensitive," the attorney general said in an exclusive interview with NPR. "What we are avoiding is making decisions on a political basis, on a partisan basis."
There was only one political party who attempted to overturn our election and overthrow our democracy. Who on the Democratic side was complicit in this attempted coup? Who in the Democratic party was complicit in delaying the certification of certain states to fraudulently make Trump the winner?
This investigation needs to be partisan because only one side is still attempting to subvert our democracy.
Jesus, Mary, and Joseph he is certainly going out of his way to let Republicans know that he isn't going after them because they are Republicans who simply want to stay in power no matter how. The entire Republican party, except for Cheney and Kinzinger, still is complicit in overthrowing our democracy.
stopdiggin
(11,089 posts)that DOJ goes after crime and criminal behavior, as opposed to political parties or agents. IF the two happen to intersect - so be it. But you don't align yourself with, or against, any parties (or political factions) a priori.
Mr. Garland had it perfectly right in his statement.
CrackityJones75
(2,403 posts)So the DOJ which is supposed to be non-partisan so as to not jeopardize their credibility, and in a statement where they feel the need to ensure that non-partisanship, should give a message that is partisan?
gab13by13
(20,856 posts)whose #1 goal is to destroy our democracy. Merrick Garland may have to say he is non-partisan but he damn well better be partisan in his actions, our democracy depends upon it.
The Republican party, the Putin party, is rigging elections, the Putin party is passing laws that rewrite history that control what is taught in schools, is passing laws that discriminate against anyone who isn't a member of the white master race and gender.
The Republican party is doing what an autocratic government does. The Republican party is the biggest threat to our democracy, bigger than Russia, bigger than ISIS, it's past time to quit coddling them, we need to call them out for who they are.
uponit7771
(90,225 posts)Fiendish Thingy
(15,361 posts)Nonpartisan doesnt mean bipartisan, or sympathetic to either party, it means nonpartisan.
As it should be.
uponit7771
(90,225 posts)LexVegas
(6,005 posts)dixiechiken1
(2,113 posts)Mr. Ected
(9,670 posts)Or assigned to the task at hand.
The only way to make justice work faster is to increase manpower, not change pace.
I'm sure this is known and has been acted upon without public knowledge (or not, if the idea is misguided).
Miguelito Loveless
(4,438 posts)kacekwl
(6,993 posts)Goodheart
(5,264 posts)Evolve Dammit
(16,632 posts)Alexander Of Assyria
(7,839 posts)read and think later.
Hope this at least sinks the sailors on the How Can U Tell IF Ship
is there is even an investigation, cause where are the interviews, grand juries, etc. etc
.lol
come on, give up that ghost at least and a bit of the internet machine outrage?
ShazzieB
(15,952 posts)woodsprite
(11,853 posts)uponit7771
(90,225 posts)... the lack of threat from the GZP attack on democracy expressed in these comments tells more than when people will be arrested and thrown in jail.
IT IS PARTISAN !!
It wasn't democrats who attacked America it was republicans and we need to address that fact **BEFORE** going into the midterms partisan or not.
The "bothsideism" of no partisanship here isn't warranted, we know who the threat is.
Rebl2
(13,301 posts)Its only the President that can fire the AG, right? If republicans take over the senate next year, they couldnt get rid of Garland could they?
uponit7771
(90,225 posts)Paladin
(28,202 posts)kentuck
(110,950 posts)...that the story has not gone away. It is as strong today, if not stronger, than it was on January 6th.
Republicans have always been able to use passage of time as a way to re-define and re-write history. They have not been able to do that this time.
Nevilledog
(50,659 posts)Justice matters.
(6,873 posts)Too late to indict.
Ignored for too long.
iemanja
(53,001 posts)I hadn't realized that.
Justice matters.
(6,873 posts)Justice delayed is Justice denied for the conman who says he's rich and connected... (to putin's butt).
iemanja
(53,001 posts)Or is it the obstruction allegations from the Ukraine issue and the firing of Comey?
I don't think DOJ plans to investigate either.
Justice matters.
(6,873 posts)A thousand former Federal prosecutors signed a memo stating they believe the orange "Capone" terrorist should have been charged with 10 counts of OoJ. Even Mueller himself said in Congress hearings he could charge him after his "presidency" is over.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,361 posts)And youre wrong- only a couple of SOLs have expired, some wont expire until 2025 due to ongoing conspiracy/coverups.
Regardless, only 4 out of 14 potential obstruction charges meet all three required evidentiary components for a potential conviction, hence the DOJs reluctance to indict. The open and shut argument is laughable.
For more information, go to emptywheel.net (you might have to go back a few pages, but thankfully they have a pretty good search function).
Alexander Of Assyria
(7,839 posts)usaf-vet
(6,092 posts)For Garland's comment to be accurate, it assumes WE HOLD, the WH, HR, and take the Senate.
usonian
(9,413 posts)Your post says it all.
SPECULATION
It sure looks like some people are waiting for a "Watergate Moment", i.e. the hearings.
But hearings reverse course when you're in the minority.
FACT
THINGS WE CAN DO TO PRESERVE DEMOCRACY IN 2022 AND BEYOND.
(shameless plug for my thread, updated often)
DON'T LET THE CLOCK RUN OUT.
https://democraticunderground.com/100216380145
pandr32
(11,446 posts)So far, the foundation is large, the walls will be high, and oh--that roof! Brick by brick this will be a solid case. The responsible someone(s) will not be squirming away this time.
This is what is needed. We need to quit complaining it isn't fast enough or in time for an election.
Justice matters.
(6,873 posts)Just like the Obstruction of Justice cases in Mueller's report Tome II expired this year.
pandr32
(11,446 posts)jalan48
(13,797 posts)Emile
(21,887 posts)MineralMan
(146,189 posts)That is going to be very important when it's time to prosecute the nomenklatura in this case. Yes, indeed it will. To be successful in prosecuting, convicting, and winning appeals with regard to those particular individuals, details and foundation-building are going to matter.
AG Garland is building his case, one step at a time. The current round of prosecutions is just a step away from the penultimate set of wrongdoers, who are just one step away from Trump himself.
Garland has said all he can say at this point. The cases are continuing to reach upward.