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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy even a "limited" no-fly zone is a bad idea
Why even a limited no-fly zone is a bad idea
Theres a new idea for a Ukraine no-fly zone. It doesnt work any better than the old one.
By Zack Beauchamp@zackbeauchampzack@vox.com Mar 10, 2022, 10:10am EST
snip//
Over the weekend, Sen. Joe Manchin (D-WV) signaled openness to the idea, as have other members of Congress. On Tuesday, Politico published an open letter calling for a limited no-fly zone over parts of Ukraine signed by 27 leading experts, including a former supreme allied commander of NATO and two former US ambassadors to the alliance. The basic idea would be to deploy NATO assets to prevent Russian jets and helicopters from flying over certain parts of Ukraine to allow for refugee evacuation and the provision of humanitarian aid.
Calls for a limited no-fly zone suffer from the same basic problem as a broader campaign: You cant implement one without greatly heightening the risk of nuclear escalation.
I can only see two reasons [for proposing this]: They have no idea what theyre talking about or theyre posturing, says Robert Farley, a political scientist at the University of Kentucky who studies airpower.
Moreover, there is no kind of no-fly zone limited or otherwise that would address the humanitarian crisis motivating such calls. Russias primary method of bombarding civilian-populated areas in this war has been artillery, not aircraft which means that a Western intervention focused on shooting down planes would either prove ineffective or else escalate to something even more dangerous.
But the calls for a no-fly zone keep coming anyway: relics from prior wars waged under unquestioned American supremacy, unburdened by the prospect of great-power war and nuclear escalation.
more...
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/22967674/russia-ukraine-no-fly-zone-limited-nuclear-war
Texaswitchy
(2,962 posts)But it isn't Russian air space.
It is Ukraine's air space.
Russia invaded it.
This war is going to escalate as a land war if Putin is not stopped.
dlk
(11,438 posts)Make no mistake, it will be a nuclear war. Unfortunately, with Russia, there are no good options.
orwell
(7,754 posts)...to take out anti-aircraft batteries? How about missile launch sites?
Because that is what it would mean to enforce a no fly zone.
And won't you be giving credence to Putler's claim that this is a war for survival to stop NATO attack?
Think this through for a minute...
Texaswitchy
(2,962 posts)Just to protect Ukraine's air space.
We are doing it now with the equipment we are sending them.
How many helicopters and planes over Ukraine as been shot down with NATO equipment.
The military has been taking out Russian tanks and other equipment every day.
Killing Russian military.
We are at war with Russia now.
orwell
(7,754 posts)...they have anti-aircraft radar that they are using in Belarus and Russia. They are launching missiles into Ukraine from Belarus and Russia. To enforce a no fly zone you will have to take those threats out on the ground.
What do you think a no fly zone is? Are you going to put air assets up and allow them to be painted and fired upon?
The world has already said that they will ship weapons, anti-armor and anti aircraft to the Ukrainians. There are more javelins and Nlaws in Ukraine right now than there is Russian armor. We are also supplying intelligence to the Ukrainian forces.
But that is nothing like setting up a no fly zone.
Oh, and you will also have to fire on any Russian asset in the air over Ukraine. That puts US or NATO air assets shooting down Russian air assets and vice versa.
What don't you understand about this? Now the conflict is a direct superpower conflict. Two superpowers with around 10,000 nuclear warheads, and a caged rat on the other side now facing annihilation who may actually use them.
The red line should be at a NATO country. That is our commitment, and that is what we should adhere to. They cross that line and all hell should break loose.
Oh and by the way, the city squares, villages, and hospitals will still be being shelled with ground artillery. That will not change with a no fly zone. So what are you going to do then? Take those out too?
I think the President is doing the right thing. It's too bad more of us don't have his back.
Oh and by the way, Fuck Putin...
Texaswitchy
(2,962 posts)They will say he let people die.
They will.
The fact that Trump was a Russian asset will not come up.
The jets could be taking out Russian tanks.
This is going to be a long war.
The ground troops are doing well but they need help.
That long column of tanks and other vehicles could have been taken out quickly.
I understand your point of view but Ukraine is a big country.
The drones are helping but what is the difference between a drone taken out a tank or a jet taking out a tank.
We are in WW3 right now.
orwell
(7,754 posts)...it is too serious for that.
This article says what I was essentially trying to convey, but with much more information.
https://warontherocks.com/2022/03/the-dangerous-allure-of-the-no-fly-zone/
If you want the US to declare war on Russia, then we can debate that. Because that is what this is.
For those who want a no-fly zone, just change the headline to:
The US Should Declare War on Russia.
Is that where we are?
Texaswitchy
(2,962 posts)Republican politics.
President Biden is caught between a rock and a hard place.
Trump caused this being a Russian asset.
President Biden has been dealing with Trump messes from the beginning.
Putin plan is to depopulate the country.
Starting from the border and working over the whole country.
Ukraine only has a few jets available.
Air power will come into this.
Drones are great but it take more drones.
Now the nuclear plant under Russian control.
Yeah it is WW3.
orwell
(7,754 posts)...and stop the armchair general No Fly Zone fantasy.
Texaswitchy
(2,962 posts)It is foolish to think we are not in WW3.
Putin's goal is to depopulate Ukraine.
Was from the beginning.
Anyway he can.
They is nothing but brave people blocking him.
After that he will continue in some other country.
NATO will have to step in at some point.
Just watch videos from over there.
We may not be able to get equipment to the military over there. The cities are being surrounded.
Putin is just waving his nuclear baseball bat around.
I just wonder which country is next.
AntiFascist
(12,792 posts)and it's also now being debated in Europe, even just last night on BBC's Global Questions in Lithuania. The audience was split about 50/50.
America should not take the lead on this, since Europe is the one in the crosshairs, but we should definitely support Europe/EU/NATO.