We are not military experts. They KNOW more than us, in expertise & intel. Let's not armchair QB

[themaguffin]

I get it, it's hard not to, and we want this to end.

We want Ukraine's suffering to end. We want to stop a mad piece of shit, but there's a LOT that we don't know.

In fact, we don't know what we don't know.

Edit: To clarify, my comments are not about general discussion, but the commentary of certainty of posters as if we are talking about something we know well, when there are professional elements to this, not to mention foreign intelligence and long term policies etc.

[48656c6c6f20]

1. This reminds me of that famous quote

“There are known knowns, things we know that we know; and there are known unknowns, things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns, things we do not know we don't know.” ― Donald Rumsfeld,

I prefer not to be as dumb or disengaged as rumsfeld.

[themaguffin]

6. Yes, I know his remark and just because he was a POS doesn't change that we are not experts who

don't know as much and the relevant experience etc.

[48656c6c6f20]

13. Yeah I'll stay engaged

In my democracy thank you. And that includes voicing my support or disagreement on how my elected officials conduct themselves. But there are countries that support keeping your mouth shut, one of them is invading a democracy. So there are options to staying silent

[mitch96]

43. +1.. people talk... thats what we do. If we are right? thats good. If not? we talk some more..nt

[lapfog_1]

2. Da, Tovarishch

and Donald Rumsfeld is literally dead.

[CentralMass]

3. We know that Putin is pounding the heck out Ukraine.

[bucolic_frolic]

4. Actually I think we're doing a pretty good job

of confusing Russian hackers searching for intelligence

[Scrivener7]

5. Oh, for fuck's sake! Why don't you guys coordinate with each other?

Maybe alternate days?

[themaguffin]

7. huh...??

[Kaleva]

10. Do you think we are qualified to determine the best course of action?

[Scrivener7]

12. Do YOU think we ARE determining ANYTHING by talking about it on DU???

Do you REALLY?

Because if you do, you really need to get a grip.

[Kaleva]

30. We don't determine anything so I think it's silly ...

to argue that Biden, this nation or whoever must take a certain course of action in regard to Ukraine.

It's one thing to express an opinion and quite another for a person to demand a certain action even though the person may have no expertise on the subject. However, the Constitution and the rules of this site gives those who want to look out of their depth the right to do so.

[Scrivener7]

42. No one on DU is demanding anything because no one on DU is in any position to

demand anything. Even suggesting that people on DU are "making demands" on how to run a war is ridiculous.

I'm sure you are going to tell me that you are seeing those posts all over the place. But you aren't. What you are seeing is people expressing opinions. None of them is crazy enough to "demand" anything and then think anyone is listening to that "demand."

So relax. No one on DU is so stupid as to think they are making military policy. And no one on DU actually IS making military policy. They are just expressing opinions. You really don't need to be frightened of others' opinions. Even if they are not yours.

[Kaleva]

45. As this is a discussion board we have the right to challenge those

who suggest a military action be taken when it's clear they have no knowledge or experience in the matter.

For sure, one can express an opinion but they ought to expect feedback, often negative feedback, especially when they don't know much about the subject.

So relax

[Scrivener7]

46. Yes, certainly. Have the discussion. Stop the three threads a day chastising people for

having the nerve to talk about it because they are "not qualified to determine the best course of action."

Have the balls to have the actual conversation.

Stop suggesting that anyone who says something you disagree with is wrongfully "telling our leaders what to do." Instead, tell them why you disagree with them. Stop telling others their lack of inside knowledge makes them unqualified to have an opinion. You don't have any inside knowledge either, yet you are repeatedly expressing the opinion that others should shut up because they are not experts. Instead, have the discussion. Tell them why you disagree with them.

Because if your impulse is to tell people to shut up because they aren't experts, you really ought to take that somewhere other than a discussion board.

Stop the righteousness swarming. That's not discussion. It's purpose is to simply try to get people to shut up. It's ridiculous. And it's what Republicans do.

[MineralMan]

47. That's a pretty authoritarian stance to take, isn't it?

You appear to be telling people to "shut up" yourself. Hmm...

[Scrivener7]

48. Lol. If that's what you take from it, you might want to read it again.

[MineralMan]

52. That would be my suggestion to you, as well.

People post their opinions here, and open discussions when they post thread starters.

A suggestion of something is not an order. It is not an attempt to control the conversation, nor to tell anyone what they must do or not do. If you disagree with someone's post, you are able to say so and explain why you disagree. If you tell the person that their opinion should not be posted here, you are doing exactly what you are complaining about, it seems to me.

As always, this is just my opinion. I say so right in my signature line.

[treestar]

53. You are making rules about what to discuss

"stop telling others their lack of inside knowledge makes them unqualified to have an opinion" you're doing just that, telling other to stop telling others that the weight of their opinion is not much where they have no knowledge. Stop criticizing people for criticizing. Why expect your rules to be followed? People won't stop speculating what should be done. People won't stop arguing that speculating is wrong, or based on not enough knowledge, etc.

Direct personal attacks can be hidden.

[uponit7771]

24. Its ok to be aware and informed and even wrong while learning

[Kaleva]

34. Yes

I'm here to learn. And I'm not here to say what our leaders need to do on issues I know not much about.

[Crunchy Frog]

8. I thought we were on a discussion board.

[themaguffin]

11. Yes, that's not my point though. It's the certainty of threads as if we were talking about

something mundane and accessible to what most of have experience and information in

[Blues Heron]

29. So alert on it if you don't like it

Otherwise, carry on everybody, don’t listen to this op - we are here to talk, and talk we will. Full stop.

[Alpeduez21]

27. One on which this OP says

don't discuss the main topic off the last three weeks.

[Wingus Dingus]

9. NO other message board I read has warnings from other posters like this--

"Remember folks, we don't know anything, so don't speculate, just trust the President!" It's unique to DU. Why?

[Scrivener7]

14. And DOZENS of them!

[Wingus Dingus]

15. Pretty much every day. Are they rotating shifts or what?

[Scrivener7]

17. AND on EVERY important topic in the news! It's CRAZY!!!

[themaguffin]

16. That's not what I am saying

[ymetca]

32. Good question

almost like party apparatchik stuff, either witting or unwitting.

Wasn't the same when we invaded Iraq. The hue and cry here was all "BULLSHIT!"

So we speculate, if Putin has been led into a trap, who led him there? And who led us into the "trap" of Iraq? Hubris? Malice? Profit? Fear? Who gains and who loses? Who's really at fault?

And now people must die for it, these forever "known unknowns", for no reason other than no one really knows.

Now on with the armchair military strategizing!

[treestar]

54. It is easy to see that there is concern that

the POTUS could lose the midterms or the next election if enough people are discouraged about him. Occurs whenever there is a Democratic President in office.

Nobody worries about Republican Presidents, and no one ever says they have knowledge we don't, because we don't care if they look bad and we want them to lose. Nobody ever said Dubya knows what is going on in Iraq, trust him. We didn't care if he was undergoing any criticism, fair or unfair.

We do when there are Ds in the office.

[11 Bravo]

18. It's the internet, where anonymous self-proclaimed MENSA members go to pontificate.

[Scrivener7]

22. It's a discussion board. Where people discuss.

[Skittles]

25. heh

and people who never even served sure like to pontificate about what our military should or should not do

[Happy Hoosier]

28. To be honest...

Private First Class Snuffy rarely knows much more about politio-strategic aspect than a well-informed civilian. Probably less

[11 Bravo]

33. Yeah, everybody knows those damned grunts are too fucking stupid to read a newspaper ...

or think for themselves.

During my time in combat I always took great comfort in the knowledge that the 82nd Chairborne Division was keeping itself informed regarding the politico-strategic aspect of the conflict.

[Happy Hoosier]

35. Good for you.

My experience working with troops is that they are not much different from their civilian counterparts. Some are well-informed, many aren’t.

[11 Bravo]

31. I try to avoid those. They piss me off, and I find it difficult to respond with civility.

[Skittles]

38. I like asking them if they served

they usually tell me all kinds of things except the obvious answer: "NO"

[11 Bravo]

40. I remember as a 19 year old smartass complaining about something ...

I don't even remember what, when some REMF told me, "Hey, war is Hell."
I responded, "Yeah, but combat is a mother-fucker. What do you know about that?"

It got real quiet.

[yagotme]

59. To the point man, EVERYBODY is a REMF...

[mitch96]

44. +1 ROTFL!!

[Irish_Dem]

19. The United States military is under civilian command.

The military are responsible to POTUS who is elected by the people.

The military works for the people of the United States.

This was drummed into my head by my father, career United States Air Force. He flew combat in three wars, WWII, Korea, Viet Nam. My mother was an Air Force nurse during the Korean War.

The American people speak to the President of the US,
he speaks to the military. That is how it works.

We place our trust in POTUS to make the best decisions, but he listens to WE THE PEOPLE.

So I will keep speaking out.

[48656c6c6f20]

23. You have passed basic civics

Thank God there are a few of us left

[themaguffin]

51. jfc, I'm not referring to just leaders in the military. FFS.

[Deuxcents]

20. Armchair QB is what we do..

In sports n politics. And everything else. Some here on DU are very much qualified with their knowledge and/or point of view. For me, personally, I just give my opinion on most topics. I’m free to do that here and I value my right to do so. Respectfully, that is.

[FSogol]

39. Not me, I'm an armchair punter!

[Deuxcents]

41. Yeah.. all I can do is rant n rave..

[PortTack]

21. Agree!!

[artemisia1]

26. Given "the experts" view on the threat posed by Iraq, I will not take their word on anything,

especially when an early-2000's dial-up internet connection provided me with all the intelligence necessary to see how full of it most of them are. As to this conflict, don't you remember that "the experts" were predicting the fall of Kyiv within 96 hours? That was weeks ago. I also spent enough time in uniform to have some healthy skepticism.

[themaguffin]

50. That's not what I am talking about.

[artemisia1]

56. That is PRECISELY what you are talking about. "Listen to the Experts" is exactly the wrong

sort of advice to give. The average person can often come up with a superior take on issues -- including military and intelligence ones -- than the "experts", given that the "experts" very often have their own agenda and filter facts to correspond to that agenda.

[themaguffin]

57. No, I'm talking about expertise in specific areas where few regular citizens have any real depth of

information, background or experience.

[artemisia1]

58. All of which give them biases that make them dead wrong. "Appeal to Authority" is a logical

fallacy for a reason.

[themaguffin]

60. artemisia1, you completely missed my point

[PoliticAverse]

36. Yeah those experts thought we'd be greeted as liberators in Iraq. And then there was

Afghanistan.... and Vietnam.

[themaguffin]

49. And? That's not what I am talking about.

[Happy Hoosier]

55. Also, don't assume no one here has expertise...

… at least in some aspect of this. Some indeed do, but can only discuss it in the broadest terms.