On DU, you only have two choices when discussing the war in Ukraine.

[Scrivener7]

I doubt we have any starred generals here.

We MIGHT have a military strategist or two, but they are not likely to be holding forth on current military policy in threads.

So if you want to discuss the war, it is clear to most of us that you have only two choices: 1) Discuss the war with people who are not experts, who do not have any inside knowledge or 2) Don't discuss the war at all.

As this is a discussion board, it is logical that we would choose discussion.

But some are insisting that we shouldn't do that. This is often accompanied by finger-wagging at "armchair generals" or "faux experts" or "armchair quarterbacks." Often, those DUers discussing the war are derided as being disloyal to Biden or as "demanding" that Biden act in certain ways. (Reminder: we are all here because we all support Biden. And this is a discussion board, not a military think tank that Biden consults.)

But if you want to discuss the war here - as many here do, given that this is a discussion board - it's going to have to be with people whose opinions are just as invalid as your own.

So if you disagree with someone, have the discussion. Tell them why you disagree. Don't call them names, don't tell them they are not entitled to their opinion because they are not experts. Discuss with them. Because this is a discussion board.

But if you don't want to discuss the war with people whose opinions are as invalid as your own, the solution is not to tell them not to have discussions because they are not experts. Nor is it to ridicule them for their lack of expertise, which matches your own lack of expertise. Nor is it to swarm them with righteousness.

Because this is a discussion board. We are here to discuss. And none of us is an expert.

If you don't want to discuss, that is fine too. Simply don't.

[NewHendoLib]

1. We are just demonstrating that we are a big tent!

[mopinko]

2. since the average iq and education level here is pretty high,

i always learn from the discussions here.
maybe not many war strategists, but a lot of smart folks w a broad array of experience and education.

that's why i'm here. why are these people here?

[PatSeg]

10. Yes, I learn a lot too

Plus we all get an opportunity to vent and express our fears and concerns. At times like this, we all need a place to share with others who are also paying attention.

[LakeArenal]

3. I'm a faux expert that was told I had no worthwhile Opinion!!!!

Eff! Opinions can be anything. They are opinions.

[jcgoldie]

4. pretty good synopsis!

A week ago I posted a somewhat critical opinion that the United States should sanction Russian oil despite the pain it may cause Americans at the pumps. I was largely lambasted for not being an expert on geopolitical issues and for supposedly being critical of Joe Biden. A couple of days later Joe announced sanctions on all Russian energy... so now its ok I guess. Its a frequent phenomenon on DU I've noticed that especially with a Democratic administration, some folks want 100% conformity on every issue. To me one of the strengths of Democrats that sets us apart from conservatives is that we do have some disparate opinions on policy, we can have a big tent and we can discuss those differences without jumping on each other for supposed disloyalty.

[PatSeg]

14. Yes and that is why so many of us

come here to discuss what is going on in the world. For the most part, I appreciate different points of view. I often learn a lot in the process.

[Caliman73]

76. The double edged sword ...

I agree that a diversity of opinion is ultimately a strength. In the short term however, it can also be problematic, especially in a landscape where the media likes "the fight" rather than the facts. Republicans seem to line up where Democrats do not and that is often jumped on as "Democrats are in chaos" which is not true, we just serve the facts rather than the ideology.

I see nothing wrong with having a dissenting opinion. I see much more wrong when people post assertions and do not back up those assertions with any evidence. Bad arguments are irritating, Bad faith arguments are the worst.

[hlthe2b]

5. To those who fingerwag, I'd remind them that an invaluable DU purpose right now is letting people

discuss and yes, vent their fears, concerns, questions, and emotions.

I admittedly go to sleep every night having once again resolved to myself that-- despite the horror-- that US/NATO can NOT intervene further on Ukrainian territory except for supplying arms and aiding evacuations.

Every morning, I admittedly half wish to hear that NATO/US had razed Russian lines with bombing raids around all the major cities now under siege and had set up secured humanitarian corridors, further escalation, be damned.

Somewhere between early morning and late evening, I find some moderation to a middle ground but it doesn't feel any less devastating, frustrating, or frankly, wrong.

[Scrivener7]

68. This. This is what I think a lot of people use the war

discussions for, and what many of us use DU for: to talk things out and come to terms the best we can with the terrible things and the great things that happen in our world.

[MineralMan]

6. Discussions can take many forms.

Sometimes, discussions even take the form of suggestions about discussing things.

Nobody on DU can demand anything from any other DUer. I have seen many suggestions, including from you, regarding discussions. Some suggest we should attack Russia immediately. Others suggest we should be cautions about making statements about things for which we have no expertise.

You suggest that people who have statements to make with which you disagree should not make those statements. In reality, anything posted here as a thread-starter or as a reply to a thread is someone's opinion. Nobody has any authority over other DUers, except the administrators of this website. So, if someone posts an opinion regarding discussions of the invasion of Ukraine, they are posting only their opinion. Further, they are opening a discussion thread, where any other DUer can discuss the opinion they have stated.

So, discussion is ongoing, regardless of what the original poster says. You take part in those discussions. I take part in them, and many other DUers also take part in them. Each of us has an opinion.

When someone states their opinion, whatever it might be, that person is not saying that you must agree with their opinion. Instead, the poster is putting it out there in an open thread that anyone can join.

You just posted a thread-starter. I replied to your post. Therefore, there is a discussion, which is what DU is all about. You will not like my post, nor my point. That is irrelevant. It is my opinion, just as your thread-starting post is your opinion. That is all we have here - opinions, unless we are just posting some news story without comment.

I suggest that all opinions are welcome here as the starting point of a discussion. Even mine. Even yours.

[Wingus Dingus]

24. "I suggest that all opinions are welcome here as the starting point of discussion":

Yeah, sure you do:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10142869411#post10

[stopdiggin]

33. and that too is an opinion. Correct? -(nt)-

[Wingus Dingus]

38. That's so weak of a defense, I'm embarrassed for you.

[stopdiggin]

39. But, but .. It's my OPINION.

I have a right to post embarrassing nonsense.
(and no one should object!) Eh?

[paleotn]

47. Feel free, if it doesn't violate TOS

but be prepared for disagreement. You might actually learn something. Or...just keep your typing to what you're a certified, degree holding, 30+ year experienced, super duper, world class expert in, whatever the fuck that is. This place would be nothing but dust and tumbleweeds if that were the case. But, hey, whatever.

[boston bean]

25. You just post telling us we don't know about it because classified, professionals are in charge.

Thereby thwarting opinions of others when you actually have the same amount/lack of info.

You attempt to drive opinion due to a lack (including your own lack of it), of what you say, we should just let others in the know and in charge be unquestionable and make these decisions. Because we don’t have the full picture. We should trust those others because they know more and are smarter people.

We may not know all the reasons for their decisions but we do absolutely see the results. And that is what the discussion is about. Not about what we don’t know what they won’t tell us. We see the result of their actions.

Sorry nope. Not gonna do what you are doing and suggest others do. . Questioning of those in power is part of democracy. Demanding answers from them is part of it. Complete trust of these powers is the most anti democratic thing one could be.

This has not about Biden, I love they guy. Think he is doing a good job. But still I do think we could do more and not be so damn afraid of Russia.

[MineralMan]

48. It is true that we don't know. Of that I'm certain.

And that certainty is based on my own experience with classified information. That there is a great deal the public doesn't know is simply a fact.

In reality, those in charge are the only ones who will make decisions. And, in many cases, they will not inform you or me of why they make the decisions they make.

You see the results as they emerge, but you do not see the planning for what is next, and you won't. Neither will I.

You will, of course think and do whatever you think and do. That's fine, but will not actually influence the decision-makers. Why not? Because there is stuff you don't know that they know. Why? Because if you know it, everyone knows it, and some plans have to be made secretly. It's pretty simple, except it's not simple at all. That's what I learned while I was in the intelligence business.

What makes you think that President Biden is not doing more than what you know he is doing? Think about it.

[boston bean]

56. What makes you think I am not aware? It's freaking obvious tha not a one of us knows it all.

However we see what the results of what is happening on our tvs every single day.

I would like to comment my opinions what what I would hope we are doing in the face of the facts I do have access to.

Saying to trust and not form any opinion because I am not an intelligence officer or former, makes zero sense. I have lived in this world long enough to know they are not infallible. I also understand there may be reasons I don’t know of or understand at a given point.
‘But to sit back carte Blanche and accept all at face value because the powers in control know more than me, that is ridiculous. And it is quite anti democratic.

There have been so many, too many intellligence blunders to count. So, no. Even if they know something I do not, does not always mean correct decisions are made.

Citizens questioning. Demanding more answers is how this country works and how democracy works best. Not the way you would have it be. That is an authoritarian viewpoint I hear coming most from the right m

[MineralMan]

57. I don't think I know much at all about you.

I have only what you write here for information. So, what you write tells me everything I know about you.

[boston bean]

58. Then you know 100% I do not accept what you write. My point is clear to you.

We have a major disagreement about how democracy works.

How intelligence and leaders are not infallible, you believe otherwise.

I will stick to what MY life experiences have taught me.

We agree Biden is doing a good job. That again doesn’t mean I have to accept genocide and war crimes on the European continent and our course of action to prevent is sufficient because it is a moral failure that history teaches us will only get worse the longer we do not fully and forcefully confront it. 1 year, 5 or ten years.

[MineralMan]

60. I have no real interest in changing your mind about anything.

I post what I post. What you or others make of it is not really my concern. I'm very open about my life and my history. I am exactly who I appear to be here. Whether you pay any attention at all to what I write is your business, frankly, not mine.

I cannot predict the future, because I have too little information. So, there it is.

Arguing with me is a waste of your time, to be quite frank.

[boston bean]

62. Then stop responding to me. Or don't. Whatever.

[MineralMan]

63. I will simply continue to do what I do.

If you address me in a reply, I will respond. I try to respond to all replies, even though I cannot always do so.

If you want to end those responses, it's very easy to do.

[boston bean]

64. It is as easy for you as it is for me. You won't cede, neither will I.

[BlackSkimmer]

75. Lol!

[paleotn]

41. "Nobody on DU can demand anything from any other DUer."

And yet they still do.

I don't think discussion in general is the issue. I think it's more about...disagree with the Biden admin and get branded an uninformed heretic who must be burned.

[Iggo]

74. Thanks. I was trying to figure out how to say that without being a dick.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

7. But suppose I don't want to discuss the discussion,

even though I am discussing the discussion.

Jeez, that one gave me a headache.


Just for the record, I agree.

[brush]

8. Of course we're going to discuss. Half the post here are on Ukraine and the war.

And many here on DU have military experience, some a the officer lever. There are some here from Ukraine or have Ukrainian relatives there (hope they've gotten out). I for one have a buddy who sometimes post here who served in the military as a radio analyst who listened to Russian transmissions while he was stationed in the Bosporus area.

So peopes opinions are valid, not invalid. We discuss here. That's what we do.

[treestar]

9. Why not discuss not being experts?

After all, it is a discussion board.

[Kaleva]

12. Thankfully, Biden and his advisors don't listen to us on this matter.

[mitch96]

27. +1

[MineralMan]

49. Yes. That is a good thing, I think.

[Kaleva]

11. Aren't you doing the same thing you are saying others are doing?

Telling others that they shouldn't post in a way that you don't like but is allowed under the rules?

This is a discussion board and one can expect feedback, sometimes negative, when one posts something.

[Hugin]

13. I hold valid IRDs plus verified CCs in almost all subject areas...

Of human knowledge.

Just try to keep me from spewing forth on a topic!

Dammit!

[Scrivener7]

15. I was thinking about you when I said we were not military experts, but

I figured you would want to keep your universal certifications secret.

[Hugin]

17. I earned my creds the hard way...

Through years of arduous studies in teh Lounge!

(Seriously, I do learn from discussion and I benefit from hearing a variety of opinions. However, I am not sure I personally consider, “Drill, baby, drill” an opinion.)

[PortTack]

16. Many OPs give links to back up what they write, but then drift off into their own opinion..which is

Fine, but don’t differentiate between what their opinion is and the facts. So it becomes confusing.

I for one would and do appreciate OPs or comments that take a moment to differentiate! It really would take the edge off if that was made abundantly clear.

[Calista241]

18. I play military strategy games on the interwebz.

I am the most dominant RISK player ever, and a Top 10 Civ player of all time. So i'm definitely qualified.

/s

[Evolve Dammit]

34. I'll back you up. I always excelled at Risk. Well kinda, sorta, sometimes....

[paleotn]

42. Thus, YOU cannot type anything about anything in which you're not a certified expert

Did I get that right? Why are you still typing?

[Diablo del sol]

19. The same people, some in that thread

also slammed people for being "legal/DOj" experts.

Now the shot was at people who were frustrated at tRump not being indicted for anything, (all of us) assume it was against those people who wanted Garland to get aggressive, took negative views of SDNY coming through.

To date those people have been correct, yet some people (those not proven correct, and likely will be proven incorrect) want to stop people from discussion.

[Celerity]

20. it's 100% legit to call out madness like 'cruise missile Moscow' or 'nuke them first' for what it is

[stopdiggin]

35. absolutely. the idea that all 'opinion' is equal

(or welcome) is a bit of overreach. If you're a nincompoop - chances are you get roasted (and deserve it). And pointing out lack of knowledge (or credentials) is all part of it. It seems there are some fairly thin skins developing ...

[Autumn]

21. I look forward to the scold of the day. It's so much better than journal entries.

As for loyalty? I vote for Democrats, I vote for the party because they represent my values. That's as far as my loyalty to politicians goes.

[KPN]

52. ++++++

[Firestorm49]

22. Jesus- lighten up.

[Beastly Boy]

23. I exercise both choices. They are not mutually exclusive.

I always exercise my choices based on what I think about any particular discussion or any particular post as it relates to any particular discussion. Sometimes I choose to agree and recommend posts. This is not so much a discussion as it is a show of agreement and support for the view that I find valuable. Sometimes, when I see posts that are particularly unreasonable, I chose to diagree and remind everyone, including myself, that none of us are experts. This is not name calling by any means. Sometimes I choose to not respond at all. My reason for doing so may range from complete disinterest in the subject, to me having nothing to add, to considering the post not worthy of a response. I never insist, I never alert and I never block. I want to hear from everyone, even those who violate TOU or offend me personally in the process.

In the framework of a discussion board, it's kind of a waste of time to insist on anything, or assume that anyone is insisting on anything. By definition, it cannot possibly be the case.

In the end, when we discuss or not discuss, the decision is not as binary as it may first appear.

[Tomconroy]

28. I try to put up expert opinions but sometimes voice my own.

Last edited Sun Mar 13, 2022, 01:55 PM - Edit history (1)

I read a lot of history. For instance when I heard the Russians had used airborne forces to try to take an airport near Kyiv in the first days of the war I knew enough to think: Crete 1941.
When they were driven off within hours I thought: They ain't the Wermacht.

[Gore1FL]

29. I haven't seen military strategy posts so much.

I've only seen the political ones discussing our levels of involvement.

[Tommymac]

30. Hmmm.

[chia]

44. Same

[mysteryowl]

31. Thanks

[dameatball]

32. There is always a topic "du jour" on DU. Currently, it is a whopper and will continue to be for

the foreseeable future. Consequently there is always someone who thinks discussions of any topic or its offshoots have somehow become incorrect, uninformed or even too repetitive. But we keep on truckin anyway. Otherwise the 38.65 smartest posters would be here talking to each other.
We all have a nugget to contribute now and then, perhaps along with a clunker or two. It's what we do.

[tiredtoo]

36. Personally i think we should do more to assist Ukraine

Appeasement has never worked in stopping a mad dictator. It actually emboldens them.
But i will leave it to the people in charge of American policy to make the decisions that best fill our needs.

[nightwing1240]

40. Agree completely

What changed my opinion on the matter was the killing or women and children when Putin bombed the Maternity Hospital among a few other atrocities. I do trust President Biden and his advisors and trust them to make the best decisions.

[JudyM]

70. And for me, the footage of a tank aiming straight at an apartment building and demolishing it.

[paleotn]

43. Stop it!!! You're not an expert, remember.

[tiredtoo]

59. oh gosh

[gab13by13]

37. Here is my opinion on opinions,

1st, president Biden has exceeded expectations in his response to the war. He has been instrumental in keeping our allies and NATO united, a huge accomplishment that Putin never expected.

My opinion about whether we should be doing more to help Ukraine;

1. We don't know everything that we are doing, nor should we know.
2. The opinion that we should be doing more seems to me to be the same opinion that Republicans are using. I believe Republicans will use that opinion in their election campaigns. They are hypocrites, they are really members of the Putin party but they are going to flip to try to bring president Biden down.
3. I repeat strategies from people like Malcolm Nance that we need to provide tons of Javelins and Stingers, and I also believe that we need to provide drones. When I say that, I do so without saying that president Biden should be doing this,why, because maybe he is and criticizing president Biden's strategies is the same tactic being used by Republicans, I don't want to pile on.

[Cozmo]

45. Let's all remain respective to each other and always to be humble, myself included

[KS Toronado]

46. Here's one observation of the war

On TV news clips we saw alot of WWI style trenches being used in Eastern Ukraine, only trenches I've seen lately
are for mass graves. I would think trenches dug in a zig-zag pattern through out their cities could help more
citizens survive all the missile attacks, plus give soldiers a safer place to shoot from.

[yagotme]

71. Hard to dig in concrete.

"Fighting holes/Fox holes" are a more likely scenario in a bigger city. Streets, sidewalks, drives, don't allow for much hand digging. Also, open-air trenches won't protect you from debris from falling buildings. It's not just the explosive force/fragmentation of the warhead, the secondary stuff is just as deadly, along with falling structures. The cities have taller units, which would cover a larger area in a collapse.

[Mr. Evil]

50. I just hope the day will soon come

where our most pressing topic of discussion is where are we going to build our next world-class university. Or who's planted the most trees lately. Or, maybe the latest, greatest recipe for home brewed beer.

But, we don't live in that world... yet. We live in a world run and ruined by lunatics bent on forced compliance. You don't comply, you get bombed or gassed or at the very least imprisoned. And it's just a god damn shame that we have to live our one and only life on this planet in this fashion. It's exhausting and sucks the will out of everyone.

[Scrivener7]

69. I'm with you.

[Bettie]

51. Thanks for this

I've reached the point where they daily scolding is starting to wear on my temper.

[calimary]

53. Sheer speculation. But with some psychology thrown in, sometimes.

Just guessing, of course!

[Atticus]

54. But---but---does this mean I have to respect people who don't AGREE with me? Do I

have to admit that I might---every now and then---be WRONG?

[COL Mustard]

55. Scrivener, I'm going to respectfully disagree

I think a good many people here have significant military experience and understand what needs to be done. Speaking only for myself, I have significant experience in logistics and a strong familiarity with certain munitions. I’m pretty sure that lots of my fellow veterans would also bring their experiences to the discussion. So please don’t pigeonhole people into only two artificial choices!

[macmillan61]

61. My Fear

My fear is that we are not going to have peace for a very long time — and under conditions of increasing deprivation for everyone. Vlad and his friendly opposites, the republicans, may see a way to make a lot of money and have a lot of fun with their toy soldiers and captive populations by keeping things like this going and to hell with civilians. I hope we can somehow make war unpalatable while saving both the Russian, Ukrainian and Western peoples from the idiot dogs of war.

[TeamProg]

65. I haven't seen a lot of name calling here. Glad I missed it. I think we're all on the same side here

.


I think we're ALL AWARE that opinions are predictably mixed.

And besides, even the "experts" on the teeVee get it wrong once in while.

Where's the beef?? ( aka 'argument')

[Initech]

66. My opinion on the war is that Putin can go get royally fucked.

And I'll just leave it at that!

[The Jungle 1]

67. Agreed

I have been harshly attacked for my opinions about Ukraine and this war on this site. They are just opinions and I have no expertise. The attacks have been disturbing. Many clearly questioning Biden. One post told me to leave the country.
I support Biden 100% and I will not move from that position.

[intrepidity]

73. Same applies to virtually *all* topics here

Discuss or don't discuss, simple. No need for all the extraneous meta BS that just derails discussion.

100% agree with OP.

[BlackSkimmer]

77. It'd be great if people could restrain themselves from calling fellow posters "trolls" simply

because they disagree with the others’ point of view.

There’s always been some of that here, but the answering in Russian, snarky remarks abut the weather in any random Russian city is just silly and pointless.

I’ve seen this used toward longtime posters and new posters. There are a few here who resort to this tactic quite a bit.

It’s ugly, and I wish people wouldn’t do it.

[Crunchy Frog]

78. I've been hiding the finger wagging threads, or

putting the finger waggers on ignore.

It makes things less stressful for me.