Are We Avoiding Or Ensuring World III By Not Fighting Side by Side with Ukrainians?

[babylonsister]

Posted on Mon, Mar 14th, 2022 by Tim Libretti
Opinion: Are We Avoiding Or Ensuring World III By Not Fighting Side by Side with Ukrainians?

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Pundits and politicians express this fear of triggering World War III, but we also have to ask what the world order will look like if Putin occupies Ukraine and even manages to some extent to subdue or control it.

Simply watching Russian violently invade Ukraine creates and certainly legitimates a world order characterized constant war and brutality in which larger nations, by virtue of force and whim, can simply exert their military might and lay claim to the territories of sovereign nations, especially if those nations are not part of larger alliances by prior agreements such as the North Atlantic Treaty.

I’m not sure what the pundits mean by World War III. It seems to me, though, that if a coalition of many NATO nations intervened to nip Putin’s barbaric criminal military campaign in the bud and weaken his military capacity, democratic nations on the globe might just be taking a big step to stop World War III, or at least to forestall the development of a world order characterized by constant and effectively legitimated war in which sovereignty, especially democratic sovereignty, had no authority or standing.

Let me be clear about the point I’m making. I’m not just saying fighting alongside Ukrainian soldiers is the moral thing to do. I’m saying it’s the smart political move to defend democracy globally and domestically and to create a modicum of geopolitical stability. And let me also be clear that I’m not talking about the United States, with its own tainted history of doing damage around the globe in the name of “democracy,” deciding on its own to police the world. I’m talking about a coalition of democratic nations standing up for the right of other sovereign nations to be self-determining.

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https://www.politicususa.com/2022/03/14/opinion-are-we-avoiding-or-ensuring-world-iii-by-not-fighting-side-by-side-with-ukrainians.html

[Sherman A1]

1. I would say that we are fighting side by side with the Ukrainians

We are using different methods certainly, but we are also doing things of which they are completely incapable of doing. We are giving direct lethal weaponry which they would not have had, we have imposed crippling economic sanctions which they alone could not accomplish and we have a nuclear arsenal which is a reminder to Putin that he best not act to use his.

I do not accept the naysayers or the "We ain't done nuthin' " crowd.

[RobinA]

2. This

I'm sure we are in this up to our necks.

[relayerbob]

6. Absolutely agreed

In addition, I believe there is FAR more going on behind the scenes than we will ever know about. They've been very coy about what weapons we are actually giving the Ukrainians, beyond some of the more obvious, and there is little information about how much is going in, but it's a lot. At least 17 heavy airlifters per day going into just one Polish air base that was talked about, when Blinken visited it.

We are almost certainly providing them with detailed intelligence. From the way Biden and others talk, they seem to have cracked the Russian comm systems and have been playing psyops with them, by announcng their plans days before the plans are set to be executed, completely wrecking them. Wouldn't surprise me if the "FSB leaks" that keep seeming to pop up every few days aren't a psyop designed to destabilize Putin and his government. Even all the talk about MiG going in could have been at least in part, a distraction while we send in additional SAMs or other air defenses - they seem pretty capable and the Russians aren't sending in their airforce, so they know they are at risk.

We already know of arrests and firings in the Kremlin inner circle. Additionally, by not going in, as Putin is clearly trying to goad the west into doing, we are disturning their larger war planning expectations that has them using WMD or other tactics to cause NATO/US to become divided on their responses, allowing the Russians to exploit that.

It's horrible that so many Ukrainians have lost so much, but I think our response has been pretty close to spot on. We have to avoid WW3 and nuclear exchanges as much as possible, and at the same time, defeat Russia. Their economy is tanking, the oligarchs are getting cut off, the military is being humiliated, their opponents (us) have unified strongly agasint them, and all of the leadership knows that Putin has set the country back decades, assuming it ever really recovers from this. Putin's days are numbered, and while while Russia may never accept "defeat", once Putin is gone, he will be balmed for everything.

[Baked Potato]

8. Agree with your points. Nt

[Baked Potato]

7. Agreed. Nt

[doc03]

3. Just postponing it. nt

[relayerbob]

4. This is not a binary question or either/or

We are already fighting it, but forcing the Russians away from their game plan, which was to get the US/NATO to intervene, use nukes and other extreme weapons to divide our responses. We are pushing it our ball park and forcing Russia to play their own hand, while we observe. Very astute.

This author has very little clue as to what he is talking about, but he certainly says a lot of nifty words that really don't say much that is useful.

[spanone]

5. Wish I knew.

[SomewhereInTheMiddle]

9. A matter of definition

... a coalition of many NATO nations intervened to nip Putin’s barbaric criminal military campaign in the bud and weaken his military capacity, democratic nations on the globe might just be taking a big step to stop World War III,

This sounds very much like a description of World War III to me. Just as World War II was a coalition of many nations intervening to nip Hitler's (and Italy and Japan's) criminal military campaign.

To reiterate what others have said we are using our elements of national power to attempt to force the Russians to change their actions. We are simply relying more heavily on the Diplomatic, Economic, and Informational elements than the Military one at the moment.

Putting more boots on the ground, planes or missiles in the air, or ships in the sea would almost certainly increase the number of people getting hurt and killed in the short-term. The question is would it save more lives in the long-term than our current strategy.

I think it would not.

[avebury]

10. Delaying the inevitable if the Russians don't take

Putin out. He will not stop at Ukraine. He is like a rabid dog who will not think twice about pulling the trigger the more humiliated he becomes.

[librechik]

11. Good Question!

I don't have an answer.