US Already Tried Year-Round Daylight-Saving Time. People Hated It.

[Nevilledog]

Link to tweet

https://www.businessinsider.com/us-tried-year-round-daylight-saving-time-people-hated-it-2021-3

No paywall
https://archive.ph/Aro0a


*snip*


Here are excerpts from a New York Times article from February 1974, just a few weeks after the new policy's adoption, headlined "Benefits of Daylight Saving In Winter Widely Doubted":

"A Raleigh, NC, signmaker, Ray Bennett, says he is now using more fuel and electricity because he must open his shop in the cold of predawn... In Tacoma, construction men must work the first hour or so in darkness... Hundreds of schools, including those in Tallahassee, now open their doors a half an hour or so later than before."

I suppose other schools could have followed Tallahassee's example and started opening later, but that causes its own hassles — what about parents whose work schedules don't change in the winter, and now need to adjust their childcare arrangements twice a year? That's harder than adjusting a clock.

Instead, school boards pushed — successfully — to bring back standard time in winter, which effectively is a policy of starting school later in winter than in spring or fall. Changing our clocks means everyone adjusts their schedule all at the same time, so you don't get a bunch of coordination problems as schools and businesses try to decide when is the right time to move schedules earlier or later.

Less than nine months after the US adopted year-round daylight saving, the House voted 383 to 16 to repeal it. 383 to 16! President Gerald Ford signed the law to bring back standard time in October 1974, just in time to save America from another winter of miserable pre-dawn wake ups.

*snip*

[spooky3]

1. Times have changed. The percentage of households with small children must be lower

today than in 1973. And even many of those households would enjoy having light in evening with families can be together.

[budkin]

2. Jordan says...

[meadowlander]

3. Why not just have light dependant jobs and schools start an hour later in the winter?

We have the technology.

[marybourg]

37. And what if mom and dad work in non-lighr dependent jobs?

[meadowlander]

47. Stick the kids in a pre-school time activity/study period in the library.

[pinkstarburst]

52. Supervised by whom?

There are strict drop off times at schools because if the school bell rings for class at 8:20 AM, they can only guarantee supervision in the cafeteria starting at maybe 7:15. They don't want you dropping your kid off at 6:00 AM or 5:30 AM, which some parents who work a twelve hour shift at the hospital or whatever would absolutely do as it would avoid them having to make other childcare arrangements.

[meadowlander]

59. You're right. Hiring a staff member for an extra hour in the morning is an insoluable obstacle.

Guess we'd better make everyone in the country shift their clocks twice a year even though this leads to road fatalities, heart problems, workplace injuries, mood disorders and lost productivity every single year as 300 million people adjust their biological clocks and miss sleep.

[alphafemale]

82. No. Just ditch the idiocy of DST forever.

See how easy that is?

[BlackSkimmer]

105. This.

Arizona seems to handle that ok.

[pinkstarburst]

110. Wasn't suggesting we keep

switching the clocks. Just was pointing out that your solution of throwing the kids unsupervised in the library before school for "study hall" wasn't going to work out either.

Where I live, teachers are currently quitting at a much higher rate than usual this year. One reason that is being given is the one you glibly just threw out--that staff be required to come in for extra hours before and after school. School staff doesn't want to do this. They're quitting instead. They have families they want to spend time with. Schools don't as a rule pay very well, so that extra pittance you get for an extra hour of work isn't worth it.

[marybourg]

68. Not available to many people.

[pnwmom]

77. Why couldn't every public school do this? n/t

[pinkstarburst]

111. You'd think it would be easy

The trouble is, schools have been struggling with staffing and morale issues since covid and the environment isn't the same as it was. Even pre-covid there were always rules in place about drop off in the morning. You can't just drop your kid off at 4 AM if school doesn't start until 8:30 AM because this is a safety issue.

Due to covid, and the worker shortage, teachers and schools have been greatly impacted. Campuses across the nation have been short staffed all year, without enough teachers, bus drivers, cafeteria workers, paraeducators, or security staff. A huge stressor on campuses has been the fact that schools can't get anyone to come in to work as a substitute teacher, so everyone on campus is getting forced to pull double and triple duty. Classes get combined. When subs do work, they have to cover eleven classes all combined together in the gym. Do you think they come back to work for crappy pay after that? Students continue to fall further behind.

Students who were out of school for a year and a half due to covid, are behind academically and struggling both academically and many times emotionally as well due to long term impacts of social distancing. Just like in all other work fields, many older teachers and support staff quit. Schools are struggling to fill these positions. States, who realize that after a year and a half out of school, students are way behind because of lost academic progress, especially at risk kids, many of whom did not check in to virtual learning during that year and a half, have passed laws saying teachers have to do mandatory tutoring before and after school to help the kids catch up.

The teachers, who are incredibly stressed, have their own stressed out kids at home, who are also behind due to covid, and who may also be suffering emotional effects of the pandemic, don't want to be at school more than the 8 hours required in their workday. They don't care if they are paid a few extra bucks to be forced to stay an extra hour before or after school. They want to go home to their families. And so instead, they are quitting. Just when we need to be hanging on to what experienced teachers we still have, we are losing more of them than ever.

So no, we can't just say, come in for an extra hour every day. I really don't think they will be able to find people willing to come in. They haven't been able to find people to drive the busses. Or to work in the cafeterias. Or to sub. And the teachers are quitting. It's bad right now.

[Chainfire]

4. I don't care if the call astronomical noon 4:00 AM

I am adaptable, but fix it and forget it. One of the goofiest things in our society is playing with the clocks to cut one end of the day off and add it to the other end twice a year.

[TheProle]

13. I like the time changes.

Falling back ushers in the early and long winter nights and springing forward signals the season of hanging out in the evenings in prettier weather and more time to do things before sunset.

[Xoan]

5. How about we end DST forever?

Fucking morons.

[NutmegYankee]

8. The sun rises at 4AM in New England in June.

And in winter, our children still wait at bus stops in the dark. No reason for us to stay on standard time.

[Ms. Toad]

12. Depends on which edge of the time zone you live in. n/t

[roamer65]

26. New England should move into the Atlantic Time Zone.

It has more in common with Halifax than Cleveland or Detroit, sunrise and sunset wise.

[NutmegYankee]

34. Without NY and NJ, it wouldn't work.

Our economies are all intertwined.

[roamer65]

36. Split NYS in half.

Eastern NY and NJ on Atlantic.

[Ace Rothstein]

17. How about no?

I don't want to be woken up by the sun at 4:15 every morning during the summer.

[obamanut2012]

20. Seriously

I think this is great.

[Ace Rothstein]

27. I agree or keep it as is.

Standard time year-round is not appealing to me.

[Samrob]

33. Close your blinds or drapes. lol

Think of the energy costs we will save. (so long as the utility companies are not allowed to raise costs to make up the diff).

[we can do it]

75. Me either.

[smirkymonkey]

85. Exactly!

Besides, MOST of us are not up at such an ungodly hour, however almost EVERYONE is up in the early evening.

[electric_blue68]

51. Oh, HELL No! The late sun in Spring & Summer here in NYC is 💖 glorious!!!!!!!

Have I made my point clear!!!!!!


😁

[question everything]

112. Write your House member. It still has to vote. I did last night

[ShepKat]

6. THANK YOU

I remember. I had to walk a 1/4 mile to get on the morning school bus in the dark.

[lagomorph777]

9. Similar for me. What a clusterfuck that was.

And guess what, we never manufactured a single second of extra daylight!

[ShepKat]

42. ugh

Leave it to the white man to think he can cut the bottom off a blanket, and sew it to the top to make a longer blanket. Time is a measure of synchronicity. This is incredibly arrogant

[Johnny2X2X]

18. In Michigan it's dark either way before school

sunrise is after 8 am much of the Winter with standard time, so this changes the trip to school little for kids. Dark either way in the Winter. Now this will mean after school it will be light longer.

The worst is when the sun sets at like 5:10 PM, pushing that to 6 pm is going to be a game changer for a lot of people.

[Demsrule86]

28. Same in Ohio...and kids can play after school which doesn't happen much after we go back

on regular time. I like light in the evening and imagine the energy saved.

[roamer65]

29. Yup.

I wish Michigan would go on permanent DST.

[Mariana]

57. The earliest sunset in December where I live is about 4:15pm Standard.

It's full dark well before 5pm.

[smirkymonkey]

86. +1000

[SoonerPride]

21. Of course they could change when school starts

[Mariana]

38. The high school in my town has the first bell ring at 7:20. Ridiculous. nt.

[SoonerPride]

39. That is indeed ridiculous.

[maxsolomon]

69. I had that - we called it "Early Bird" class.

7:30 to 8:20, IIRC.

It was only the overachievers that bothered.

[Mariana]

70. Oh, no, this is for all students. The school day starts at 7:20.

Some nearby towns have gone to later start times in the last few years. Maybe this one will do that soon, but as of now, the kids wait in the dark for the bus in the wintertime, even with Standard Time.

[maxsolomon]

72. Cruel, for adolescents in particular.

Seattle Public is moving to later start times for Jr. & Sr. High (8:55), earlier for Elementary (8:00).

[smirkymonkey]

88. The school day should start later and they should get out later to coincide with parents

schedules. Closer to the hours of 9 and 5 so that parent's can be there for them when they get home from school instead of having them without supervision (or having to provide it) for a few hours every day.

[hlthe2b]

23. Not sure why the issue never stuck with me. I was certainly around, but it really didn't

leave me fixated on it, one way or another.

Then again, I am a 4AM riser, so used to dark mornings but winters leave me ready to go to bed at sunset. DST year round might help that a bit.

Whatever.

[USALiberal]

41. Uphill both ways?

[smirkymonkey]

89. *snort*

[MissB]

58. In high school I'd go to school in the dark in the winter and it'd be dark when I got out

for the day. My daylight hours were spent in the classroom.

Anchorage, AK where daylight savings doesn’t mean a damn thing.

[lagomorph777]

7. I was in high school then. It was horrible.

Standing in the snowstorm, waiting for the school bus, in the dark in the morning, freezing my ass off, and still groggy from getting up in the middle of the night.

[jcgoldie]

53. Nonsense

I dont know about any other latitude but here in the midwest kids already wait on the bus in the dark in december and january on standard time. The poor kids at the bus stop argument is a myth.

[smirkymonkey]

91. Yes, also, don't they take the bus home as well?

In the winter during Standard Time, at least in the northeast, they will be getting off the bus and walking HOME in the dark. How about just adjusting school hours so that they match with the available daylight?

[lagomorph777]

96. A bit of physics for you.

The early morning hours are the coldest time of the day, because the air and ground cool off overnight.

[lagomorph777]

95. You're calling me a liar?

[jcgoldie]

98. meh

Obviously not I was addressing your point which I disagree with but take it any dramatic way you choose.

[lagomorph777]

99. Bye.

[Torchlight]

10. I guess I just don't mind it either way.

It's pretty much a non-issue to me, and the only time I give it thought is when it's time to change the clocks.

I get the arguments for it and the arguments against it and they all come across as reasonable to me. I suppose I'm agnostic about the whole thing, though some of the conversations it's a catalyst for sure do get heated.

[lagomorph777]

11. Daylight is not money. You can't save it, spend it, waste it, or make more of it.

DST is foolishness, based on a really dumb fallacy.

[Demsrule86]

25. If it is light during the waking hours, it saves energy.

[lagomorph777]

30. If you force me to get up and go to work in the dark, it wastes energy.

I gather this is all predicated on the idea that everybody is still using tungsten light bulbs? Otherwise, I can't see how it could ever help. Actually, trading light-bulb use in the evening versus the morning is futile. We're going to be awake and burning LEDS for a certain number of hours. Shifting the start/stop times just stresses people out, but doesn't save any significant energy.

[muriel_volestrangler]

55. You make a good point. People seem to think of 'energy use' as 'lighting'

which has become much more efficient, recently. However, heating hasn't changed much, and it's colder 5 hours before midday than 5 hours after. There's a reason that society has developed a winter work-day centered a bit after midday, and this bill would shift it to before midday (unless workplaces gradually change their times to go back to work they currently do).

Personally, I hate getting up in the dark, and then using harsh artificial light. So I like work and society that allows me to delay getting up until there's at least some sign of sunrise, for as much of the year as possible.

[electric_blue68]

104. Do you work at home? The natural light lightbulbs...

Can't quite think of what they're actually called that were I believe invented in one of the Nordic countries which makes sense (and now, of course, LEDS) make a wonderful more bluer skylight lighting.

Ah, I think the original ones I got like 30? yrs ago were called Chromolux. 👍

[muriel_volestrangler]

109. It's not about work time, it's about waking up

and having to switch on lights to provide sudden, full light (yes, I could install dimmer switches on bedside and bedroom lights, and bathroom lights, but it would be faff and expense, and then I'd be turning them up bit by bit every morning... when the sun does it naturally).

In fact, since I do work from home, I can control my timetable. But I think there are many people who don't like getting up when it's pitch black, and their work schedule may end up forcing that for a significant part of the year, unless someone fixes the time zones US states are in before this experiment. Indianapolis sunrise will be after 9am for over a month unless it's fixed.

[ancianita]

61. Best argument against it. Thanks.

Daylight and good health are both the most cost effective way of life for Earth and humans.

[Demsrule86]

100. You force me to drive home in the dark and leave my outside lights on all day. It is dark when I get

up in the fall and winter, dark when I drive to work and dark when I drive home.

[BlueTsunami2018]

15. The time change doesn't bother me.

If they never changed it, it wouldn’t bother me. I’m utterly indifferent on the subject.

[Happy Hoosier]

16. DST is stoopid. Go to year round Standard Time.

[Demsrule86]

22. No I like light during the time I am awake...and it will save energy.

[lagomorph777]

31. I like light when I am awake. So don't make me wake up in the dark.

That sucks big time.

[Demsrule86]

101. Once Daylight saving time is gone...I wake up in the dark, drive to work in the dark and drive

home in the dark. So boo hoo. I don't see the light really until March after Halloween...when daylight saving begins again.

[ForgedCrank]

19. I don't understand

all the fuss.
I don't have an opinion outside the fact that I love the long daylight hours during the summer evenings. I'm not so fragile that I can't adjust my schedule by one hour, twice a year.
The late sunlight keeps me more active as well.

[Skittles]

64. I don't get it either

people are so freaking delicate

[Voltaire2]

97. Manufactured Outrage.

This is an easy one for the Outrage Machine.

[Demsrule86]

24. Not everyone...I loved it. In Ohio where I live after we go back on regular time in the fall it is

dark at 4:30...go to work in the dark and come home in the dark. This also would save energy which is why it was extended the first time. I think folks will back it this time.

[we can do it]

76. Agree (former Ohioan, now on east coast)

[Big Blue Marble]

32. I vote to stay on DST all year round.

I love DST. Longer light in the evening means a chance to walk before dark. Evenings are lovely, even now
and will get better until June 21. I say leave year round. It was fine for me in 1974 and it is fine for me
now.

[Meadowoak]

43. Same here, and I believe we would be healthier, an extra hour

Of daylight in the evening, I think we would be more active. Winter is depressing, especially when it gets dark at 4:15. DST for me please.

[obamanut2012]

83. Same here.

[smirkymonkey]

90. +1000

Yes, people are more inclined to be outside after work if it is lighter out and I think it would be healthier for everyone.

I think we just have a bunch of cranky morning people here who want it to be light out when they wake up at 4:30am, which very few people do. Why cater to a minority when almost everyone will be able to enjoy the light in the early evening.

[Demsrule86]

102. Me too. I think it is healthier in terms of SAD and the drive home from work is safer in the

daylight.

[moondust]

35. I think farmers used to like DST.

It gave them an extra hour in the fields in the evening. I don't know how they feel about it now.

[marie999]

45. All the farmers I know do not work on the clock.

Saturday we fed our yardbirds at 7 AM and Sunday we fed them at 8 AM. We feed them 30 to 45 minutes after sunrise.

[moondust]

49. Planting and harvesting

can be challenging if the weather turns bad during those limited seasons in spring or fall. DST can provide a few extra hours of daylight at the end of the day after the soil has a chance to dry out after an overnight rain.

I don't know how it is now with more modern machinery and methods.

[jcgoldie]

50. We love daylight savings time

Thats how I feel about it and every farmer I know.

[moondust]

63. +1

Me too.

[electric_blue68]

106. Thanks to all our medium, and small farmers! 💖 ...

Until covid (and years where I didn't get downtown enough) I always liked to chat with my farmers at our big NYC Greenmarket! Some for like 15+ years!

Also taught myself some about various organic gardening methods back in tbe '80's.

Finally, again, probably later this year! 💖

[RussBLib]

40. split the difference

come next "Fall Back" time change, let's change clocks for only 30 minutes.
And then no more time changes.
Compromise!

[honest.abe]

44. Good answer!

[Raine]

80. Yes that would be the best and leave it that way permanently. 👍 nt

[marie999]

46. If people like the sun to set at 9 PM we should change the clocks every month.

[Deminpenn]

48. Remember it well

Was in college, walking to morning classes on the dark. 1974 was a weird year, no DST, trucker's strike, wage and price controls.

[electric_blue68]

54. Here in NYC I Love 💖💖💖 DST!!!!! The Glorious Long Days, Evenings of Sunlight...

It's a feeling of Transcendent Timelessness✨💖✨ for me.


I'm verrrry passionate about this! 😁👍

[eShirl]

56. we should all go by Greenwich Mean Time

[electric_blue68]

60. And I swear I have No Memory of that All DST time period....

just wow!

I've been told my memory is very good to excellent.

This was last yr in College + then going to f/t work?
Or 1 1/2 last year of College.




Wow, maaaybe I was SO disappointed that they took it away I wanted to forget! 🤔

[Mariana]

71. I suspect that for most people, it was a non-issue.

The complainers got all of the attention.

[electric_blue68]

73. Could be... 👍

[ChazII]

62. I just heard that the Senate

passed it 100%. Is that true? I am off to Google.

Edited to add: When no one objected to the bill on Tuesday afternoon, Democratic Sen. Kyrsten Sinema of Arizona, who was presiding over the Senate at the time, was heard enthusiastically whispering “Yes!” after it passed.

[Silver Swan]

65. I remember the attempt to have year-round DST.

It didn't make much difference to me back then.

Now, however, I really enjoy the early sunsets in December. (Here in Northeast Illinois, the earliest sunset is 4:19 PM.) I look forward to them all year.

I can only hope they will once again realize the folly of permanent DST. I would much rather have standard time all year.

[boston bean]

66. I do not care. We have sunsets at 4:12pm. Totally dark.

This is Massachusetts in the first of December.

It is a disgrace.

No no more! I will rejoice when it is gone!

[Hekate]

67. I don't get it. The planet has time zones, which we've agreed to chart from Greenwich...

Likewise we’ve established the International Date Line. It works to everyone’s convenience, for many reasons.

The planet also has an axial tilt, and other natural phenomena. Daylight and night-darkness hours vary with the season, and the further you live from the Equator, the more pronounced this is.

How is this a surprise every year? No one gets “extra” hours of daylight by changing their clocks. That’s a delusion. Either you drive to work in the dark or drive home in the dark— and big shock, if you live far enough away from the Equator, in midwinter it’s both.

It makes more sense to set off firecrackers and build bonfires to make the Sun return.

Set the clocks to one agreed method — please.

[Patterson]

74. Keep doing it like we've been doing it. It works great.

[Xolodno]

78. This isn't 1974 anymore.

The problem with DST and Standard was trying to fit a time for everyone would be satisfied. It was an endeavor of failure, but the complications of twice a year are still there.

But 1974 doesn't have what 2022 has, virtual employee's, flex time, hybrid office and WFH options, etc. And back then, you didn't have video conference calls between New York and Boston with Los Angeles and San Francisco. Now, there are certain hours for meetings and an acceptance that those on the east start their day later while us on the west start earlier.

As for schools, etc. further north, they will have to adjust starting hours just like most corporations have already done.
The pandemic brought a permanent change that was going to happen eventually. Of course, if you live in Alaska with the midnight sun, this is pretty much a pointless argument.

[rownesheck]

79. This entire thread proves

our country is too damn big. Time to chop it up into about 10 new countries! Problem solved. You're welcome.

[obamanut2012]

84. This is misinformation, you need to edit

It still needs to go to the House for a vote. Biden hasn't seen it.

[electric_blue68]

107. Oh, ok will delete.

[Spider Jerusalem]

87. We didn't have the research that says it actually kills people in 1974

The researchers looked at 732,835 car accidents recorded through the U.S. Fatality Analysis Reporting System that took place between 1996 and 2017.

The researchers discovered a consistent rise in fatal car crashes during the week we “spring forward.”

That increase spiked in 2007 when the Energy Policy Act switched the DST change to March from April, further solidifying the link between car crashes and daylight saving.

On average, the time change causes a 6 percent increase in fatal car accidents in the week following the spring DST transition, which amounts to about 28 additional deaths each year.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/daylight-saving-can-make-driving-less-safe#Drowsy-driving-is-similar-to-driving-under-the-influence

[Celerity]

93. that is due to tired people (who lost 1h sleep) I'd wager, once you're on perm DST that will go away

the next year when there is no time change forward

[Mariana]

94. So eliminating the time change in the spring

as the Senate voted to do, is a good thing.

[Demsrule86]

103. That is because of the change...from standard to daylight saving...way more dangerous to

have to drive to work in the dark and home in the dark which is what happens in Northern states like Ohio...and we drive home in ice and snow in the dark often...DST all year would be best.

[smirkymonkey]

92. From the New Yorker: Thought this was pretty funny and appropriate.

"The Man Who Has No Opinion on DST"

https://www.newyorker.com/cartoons/daily-cartoon/monday-march-14th-daylight-saving-time

[electric_blue68]

108. Heh!

[rockfordfile]

113. I've got no problem with changing the clock back or forward. The Senate is just wasting time.

So it will be darker for kids going to school in the mornings and more dangerous.