The terrifying view from Mariupol

[True Dough]

Those poor souls. So badly wish we could help.

Link to tweet

[Sedona]

1. K&R

OMG this is insane video.

They are still.fighting back in Mariupol

[Demovictory9]

2. scary

[doc03]

3. It looks like all the West is doing is prolonging the death and destruction of Ukraine by supplying

Ukraine with small arms and letting Russia bomb them at will. What is our goal to help
Ukraine or weaken Russia? What has been proven if the Russians reduce Ukraine to ashes and the rest of
Europe is destabilized by an influx of millions of refugees? The media keeps feeding us with rosy reports of how
Ukraine is doing against the Russian troops while Russia is reducing cities to ashes. That doesn't sound like winning to me.

[Shanti Shanti Shanti]

4. It's war, people die, they are willing to take up arms and die for their country,same as it ever was

[doc03]

5. Are they sacrificing their lives for Ukraine or are they sacrificial lambs for us? Here we will

supply you with a limited amount of arms, get in there and fight I will hold your beer.

[Shanti Shanti Shanti]

6. It's early yet. give it a few more weeks/months, Russia in no hurry now, US/EU/NATO can only watch

We've all said over and over. we will not fight Russia, no WWIII over Ukraine

[doc03]

8. That was a mistake telling Russia what we would not do

IMA

[wnylib]

24. I have a hunch that Russia already knew that,

which is why they invaded Ukraine.

World leaders who say that we will not fight Russia directly are mostly speaking to their own people who are urging their countries to get directly into the fighting.

[Calista241]

33. If you asked them who they were fighting for, they'd say they're fighting for Ukraine

and its people. Are we making it possible by providing them weapons, sure. But we're not giving them the resolve to fight for their homes against what they perceive as a tyrannical invader trying to enslave them all.

Look at the Russian Army if you want to see an example of poorly led, uncommitted soldiers in action.

[Igel]

21. At some point the war looks calibrated to achieve a calculated loss.

If the goal is to protect NATO and bloody Russia, it's doing a good job so far.

If the goal is to protect Ukraine and defeat Russia, it's not doing such a great job. S-300s would help. A lot of the destruction in Mariupol is from artillery--but a lot is from air strikes. And by "air strikes" I don't mean the word as redefined in the last 4 weeks but what it meant 2 months ago--bombs from airplanes. Recently anything that's not artillery is "air strike"--cruise missiles or even intermediate range guided missiles, not just bombs and missiles dropped from planes.

Muddying the language makes it far easier to say that anti-aircraft batteries that can knock down higher-flying planes wouldn't really do much good.

[LisaL]

7. I had similar thoughts.

By providing weapons, are we prolonging it?
Putin seems to be totally fine with destroying it all.

[Igel]

22. So is the choice to stop providing weapons or provide more effective weapons?

Force Ukraine to bend over for Putin or to kick his butt?

[ruet]

32. Option C.

Institute a NFZ and provide CAS to Ukrainian ground elements in order to push Russian forces back to their homeland. Now is the time to make set an example for regimes who think invading their neighbors is sound political strategy. I fear the iron is cooling though. People of good conscious will become numb to the daily killing and this will fade from the news cycle while a proxy war bubbles along.

[Arazi]

9. When Putin runs out of $$ and soldiers, then it will end

The Western countries supplying arms isn’t prolonging this. Putin isn’t going to stop at Ukraine.

The only way it stops is if he’s financially broken and Russians overthrow him, or he’s assassinated.

China, Turkey, and India must remain out of it.

We actually have more economic pain we can bring which Zelenskyy wants us to do now and I agree.

But make no mistake, arming Ukraine isn’t prolonging this. If Ukraine falls, Putin will push in to Lithuania and we’ll see the same situation

[LisaL]

11. With what army is Putin going to go into other countries?

I think he expected war with Ukraine to be over much faster. This war definitely exposed that Russian army isn't as good as Putin imagined it to be.

[Happy Hoosier]

13. Give it ten years...

Putin will rebuild and pick his next target. I and others sais so after Crimea, but so many were just hoping he would be satisfied. It’s foolish.

[LisaL]

14. Is Putin going to last 10 more years?

There are all these rumors about some health conditions.

[Happy Hoosier]

16. Maybe, maybe not.

But seems a foolish bet. How many of us thought that sack of shit Trump would keel over. But there he is.

[Igel]

23. It's not just Putin.

Transdnistria was set up pre-Putin.

The first Georgia war was was pre-Putin.

The first demolition of Grozny was pre-Putin.

Saying it's only and all Putin's fault misses a big chunk of the history.

The pre-Putin bit of post-Soviet territorial aggression helped Putin's worldview that the West, when faced with blood, runs and abandons its principles on the battlefield. Given that history, it's hard to say he's wrong. That emboldened him for Grozny 2, Georgia 2, and Ukraine 1 ... and 2.

[Arazi]

18. Exactly. The strategy grows clearer every day. Russia's military must be broken

Putin and the oligarchs must be broken.

The Russian people must finally pierce the propaganda machine and fully see the corruption and lies.

Unfortunately Ukraine is going to get annihilated in the meantime. They truly are the front line between authoritarianism and democracy.

I hope it’s only a matter of weeks (days?)

The Ukrainians have said they’re in this to the bitter end. Our best course of action is to throw everything we can at the situation to help them - weapons, intelligence, money, medical assistance, pressure on Putin, financial squeeze on the Russian economy etc.

But withholding assistance (as suggested above) is NOT going to end this now

[True Dough]

15. This is the state of things, yes

Discounting an X factor, like Putin resorting to a small, strategic nuke, which could be a game changer in terms of NATO response, the plan seems to be similar on both sides.

Putin is encircling Ukrainian cities (as much as the Russian forces are able to execute that strategy) and then bomb/starve the inhabitants. So he's viciously trying to wait them out while punishing them with shelling.

NATO is shipping arms to aid the Ukrainian forces knowing that an economically free-falling Russia will deplete its finances and its war dead/demoralized/unfed soldiers are unwilling/unable to carry on the fight.

What we have in the meantime is devastation on the ground, which is heartbreakingly common in times of war. Here's hoping it all ends soon.

[Happy Hoosier]

17. If we allow him to destroy Ukraine...

History will not remember this moment kindly.

[True Dough]

25. That is true

but Putin will be remembered as the individual responsible for the atrocities.

Conversely, if NATO intervenes fully, as opposed to supplying key weapons and supplies as it has to date, history may very well show that this led to WWIII and perhaps a nuclear confrontation. Then maybe none of us will be around to commemorate history at all.

[Happy Hoosier]

12. I imagine that Ukraine...

Would rather rebuild from scratch than live under Putin’s boot.

It is unbelievable to me that someone would suggest this as long as the Ukrainians themselves want to continue the fight.

[Irish_Dem]

19. I have been having the same thoughts/questions, doc03.

The West is giving Ukraine only enough help to prolong the war, but not win it. Meanwhile the death and destruction continues.

And yes we hear uplifting news but can clearly see the cities being leveled and civilians targeted.

Who benefits?

On the other hand, the Ukrainians have a right to handle all of this the way they see fit. Perhaps like England during WWII, Ukraine would rather fight to the end, and never surrender.

[Wingus Dingus]

20. I haven't seen rosy reports. I've seen reports of

slow to stalled Russian advancement on most fronts including Kyiv, with a concentration of effort on Mariupol and other cities in the southeast. Russia is going to take/hold some cities, civilian atrocities and destruction will continue, that is a fact. But we are not in the endgame yet, unless something is negotiated. This may take awhile. It took Russia 9 months of combat to subdue just Chechnya in 1999-2000.

[doc03]

26. They are well on their way to taking the Black Sea coast

clear to Moldova and maybe them too.

[Wingus Dingus]

27. Russia's going to try to solidify and hold as much of that as possible

for future negotiations, I suppose. That doesn't mean all is lost. It's early yet.

[doc03]

28. What is stopping him from taking Moldova? It's not

a NATO country and it is there for the taking.

[Wingus Dingus]

29. They don't have the means to open or hold another front.

They are mostly at a stalemate in Ukraine right now.

[ruet]

31. Agree.

Everything you said plus this appears to be settling in to a protracted proxy war. Who'da thunk Russia would be relegated to a proxy state for China. How the mighty have fallen.

[Renew Deal]

35. The "lie down and enjoy it argument."

[ruet]

30. IFVs and Gun Cameras Are Well Back Into the 20th Century. -NT-

[True Dough]

34. More gutting footage...

Link to tweet