Down Memory Lane with The Nation

[malaise]

Might on either side does not mean right as in correct
https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/neo-nazis-far-right-ukraine/


Five years ago, Ukraine’s Maidan uprising ousted President Viktor Yanukovych, to the cheers and support of the West. Politicians and analysts in the United States and Europe not only celebrated the uprising as a triumph of democracy, but denied reports of Maidan’s ultranationalism, smearing those who warned about the dark side of the uprising as Moscow puppets and useful idiots. Freedom was on the march in Ukraine.


PUTIN’S REPUBLICAN SYMPATHIZERS
Sasha Abramsky

Today, increasing reports of far-right violence, ultranationalism, and erosion of basic freedoms are giving the lie to the West’s initial euphoria. There are neo-Nazi pogroms against the Roma, rampant attacks on feminists and LGBT groups, book bans, and state-sponsored glorification of Nazi collaborators.

These stories of Ukraine’s dark nationalism aren’t coming out of Moscow; they’re being filed by Western media, including US-funded Radio Free Europe (RFE); Jewish organizations such as the World Jewish Congress and the Simon Wiesenthal Center; and watchdogs like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and Freedom House, which issued a joint report warning that Kiev is losing the monopoly on the use of force in the country as far-right gangs operate with impunity.

[Hortensis]

1. All nations have these people, but Ukraine's today are Putin's product

in a very real sense.

Both extremism and intense corruption have long been systematically developed by Russia to destroy other nations and to make their criminal classes dependent on/allied with Russia. Since the revolution, they've stepped up their efforts to corrupt the minds of the people, protect deep seated corruption, and incite extremism and violence to demoralize society and take down the new government.

Russia does this in many nations, including the U.S., but probably nowhere more intensively than Ukraine since it started purging Russia's agents from government and industry.

Of course, the problems mentioned aren't only Russia-generated. Their current growth is part of this era's planetwide "spiritus mundi," as described by Yeats.

[malaise]

2. Intense corruption in the United States and across this planet were

systematically developed by Russia.
As John McEnroe would say - cannot be serious

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. I am in contact with a Ukrainian Languages professor. We chat every day via Direct Message.

This has been going on since the invasion. She would fit in well here. We discussed the NAZI charge and she said the Russians are looking for Bandera. He's dead. There are NAZIS in America but they don't define us. I would add a NAZI nation led by a Jew is incongruous, to say the least.

[Hortensis]

29. Great to be able to talk to her, and that she can still

maintain contact. Here they're looking for "antifa" and commies. And of course Hillary, whom Anonymous, I believe revealed to be serving the Kremlin at that time, called "the root of all evil."

Our conservative wing, and no doubt Russia's, is currently dominated by the exact same kind of authoritarians who found a strongman to give unquestioning loyalty to in Hitler in Germany, now in Putin in Russia and tRump in the U.S. If Putin says Russia has to hunt down Jewish Nazis or alien invaders in Ukraine they're all in. To me what's incongruous that they have absolutely no idea that they're the "nazis."

Hope your friend stays well and in communication.

[Crunchy Frog]

4. Good thing Ukraine is being saved from the evil Nazis by Putin's heroic Russia!

[Wingus Dingus]

5. So you're making the case that a nation struggling to emerge from

Russia's control has some internal problems and flaws... and that means that the people there should expect to be killed, sent to detention camps, have their livelihoods taken away, have their homes and businesses turned to rubble, and go back under Russian control. They weren't perfect, after all. They were asking for it. What were they wearing?

[malaise]

7. Huh? I posted an article from a reputable source n/t

[Wingus Dingus]

9. What was your intention in posting it, and what did you mean by

"might on either side does not make right"? I don't read The Nation. They are very often pro-Putin.

[malaise]

10. There are no saints here

Just greedy humans with large egos on all sides.
I love The Nation

[Wingus Dingus]

11. Who is greedy? Who has a large ego?

Who said anyone is a saint? Edit to add: I'm sure you do love the Nation. It's for a certain crowd.

[malaise]

14. Very proud to be part of that crowd

We like the Social Good not oligarchs v billionaires

[Wingus Dingus]

15. Weird that they're often such Russian propagandists, then.

But you didn't answer my question. Do you think it's greed and ego that makes Ukraine fight for its survival?

[malaise]

16. Ukraine like my lil shithole country is just another pawn

in the greed game.
Not one world power gives a shit about us.

[Wingus Dingus]

17. Do you think Ukraine has the right to be a self-determining sovereign

country? Do you believe Ukraine has the right to defend itself from a Russian invasion?

[malaise]

19. Did Cuba, Chile, Nicaragua, Guyana, Jamaica, Panama,

Vietnam, and lots of others? We should all be allowed self determination and the right to defend ourselves, but world powers do what they want and there are no consequences.

[Wingus Dingus]

21. Do you believe that Ukraine--just Ukraine--has a right to

exist as its own nation with its borders unviolated, its own elections, and its own military to defend itself from Russian aggression? Do you believe that Russia should suffer consequences for its aggression? Remember now, we're not talking about the US, or NATO, or Jamaica, or any other country. We're talking about two nations: Ukraine and Russia. Let's stick to the topic at hand and not try to enlarge it for some other purpose.

[malaise]

23. It doesn't work like that with me - sorry

You don't get to do whatever the hell they want and then sit in judgment of others. That requires breath-taking arrogance and a frightening sense of self importance.
Ukraine and the rest of us have the right to self determination.

[Wingus Dingus]

25. So you believe that Russia is wrong to invade Ukraine and

kill Ukrainians--no matter Russia's stated reasons--and that they should respect Ukraine's territorial integrity? Because I agree.

[malaise]

26. You're all wrong in Ukraine - Russia, NATO, the US

but it's about resources not people - as usual. Domination of others - that's what it's about

[Wingus Dingus]

27. US and NATO haven't invaded Ukraine--Russia has. Only Russia

is trying to dominate Ukraine and kill Ukrainians and take the country's resources for its own.

[kcr]

31. When did the US invade Ukraine?

Your OP is beyond ridiculous. Ever been to JPR? You'd fit right in there.

[leftstreet]

8. DURec

[Crunchy Frog]

22. Glory to Putin and his glorious battle against Ukrainian Nazis!

[leftstreet]

28. Are you okay? n/t

[kcr]

30. They are accurate n/t

[Diablo del sol]

18. Katrina vanden Heuvel - editor/co owner used to be on MSNBC a lot during the Obama years

I generally found her extremely knowledgeable on most subjects. Then tRump got in and her Putin/Russia defense was over the top. I believe her husband is heavily involved in running/ownership of The Nation.

Got to the point that I just assumed she was compromised.

[progree]

24. Her husband (who recently passed) was a very well known scholar of Russian studies

and had several pieces published in The Nation. I found it to be pro-Russian propaganda bullshit. Vanden Heuvel sometimes wrote similarly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_F._Cohen

I've been a subscriber to the Nation continuously since about 1998, and read most articles. But on things having to do with Russia, I don't give it any credence.

The above link goes into his Russia polemics, which is above and beyond over-the-top. Scroll to the "Putin era" topic for a quick look.

[mathematic]

20. This is literally russian propaganda.

Oh, for sure, plenty of pro-Russian sources like the The Nation were amplifying the rise of far right nationalism in Ukraine back in 2015, and apparently, in 2019.

This propaganda attempts to paint post revolution Ukraine as hopelessly neo-nazi. And yet, in that 2019 election Biletsky, founder of Azov Battalion, lost his seat in the government and a Jewish man was elected president. It turns out Ukraine is actually a democracy and neo-nazis aren't popular.


The Nation, and YOU, by promoting this garbage, are making this point:

It’s not just the military and street gangs: Ukraine’s far right has successfully hijacked the post-Maidan government to impose an intolerant and ultranationalist culture over the land.

Well here's a post from the official Ukrainian instagram account:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CbNGSRWNORu/

Ukrainians defend not only our country, but the values of freedom, dignity, expression.

🏳️‍🌈 In fear for the persecution of their identity, LGBTQ+ Ukrainians took a gun. It is known that Russia compiled lists of journalists, activists and gay rights advocates to kill or send them to the camps.

So tell me, is this the post of a government imposing an intolerant and ultranationalist culture over the land?

[David__77]

32. One can have clear-cut position on Russia's invasion of Ukraine and think these points are valid.

...

[Tommy Carcetti]

33. Hooray. Whataboutism. Bothsidersism.

Woo-hoo.