Thread on 4th vaccine

[newdayneeded]

Is there any danger of over exposure to the vaccine? Similar to if you take too many antibiotics and they become less effective?

[Rebl2]

1. Good question

[tavernier]

2. This is a good explanation

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/how-they-work.html

[hamsterjill]

3. Definitely a question that needs to be addressed.

n/t

[uppityperson]

4. Vaccines and antibiotics work in very different ways. Short answer is no.

Vaccines work by priming your immune system to recognize the virus or bacteria in your blood and act more quickly to fight it off. Antibiotics act by killing bacteria at some stage of its life cycle.

https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/development-approval-process-cber/vaccine-development-101
Vaccines work by mimicking the infectious bacteria or viruses that cause disease. Vaccination stimulates the body’s immune system to build up defenses against the infectious bacteria or virus (organism) without causing the disease. The parts of the infectious organism that the immune system recognizes are foreign to the body and are called antigens. Vaccination exposes the body to these antigens.

Some vaccines contain weakened versions of a bacteria or virus, other vaccines contain only part of the bacteria or virus. Some vaccines contain only the genetic material for a specific protein and direct the body to produce a small amount of that protein. The body’s immune system reacts defensively once it detects this protein.

After vaccination, the immune system is prepared to respond quickly and forcefully when the body encounters the real disease-causing organism.

[Laurelin]

5. Vaccines and antibiotics are not at all the same

Antibiotics kill bacteria. Antivirals kill viruses. The bacteria and the viruses evolve and they reproduce so quickly that they evolve quickly. If you take an antibiotic, the sensitive bacteria die. If some bacteria are not sensitive to that drug then they survive and reproduce and you have resistant bacteria. Or viruses If it's an antiviral.

Vaccines don't kill viruses. They expose your immune system to a virus, or altered virus, or related virus, or part of a virus.. whatever. This exposure lets your immune system recognize the virus when you're exposed to it and gives your immune system a head start in responding. Then your own immunity kills the virus.

I'm not saying fourth shots are a good idea. Vaccines do have side effects, and maybe a fourth shot won't prime your immune system any better than the first three. I don't know if there's data on fourth shots and the stupid virus keeps evolving so today's data might be moot next week.

But the mechanism isn't the same as taking an antibiotic or antiviral drug. It's not even apples compared to oranges, more like apples compared to cats.

The similar and confusing thing is that if lots of people are vaccinated a new variant of the virus may evolve that can sneak past the vaccine- caused immunity. The same thing can happen if, for example, many people had the delta variant but the omicron variant can sneak past that natural immunity.

(I'm not a doctor or nurse but I did take microbiology back in the Dark Ages. )

[lagomorph777]

6. Not exactly, but also not risk-free.

I got severe diarrhea and AFIB from my 3rd shot. I had only had an AFIB episode once, four years prior.

I'll have to explore other options for any fourth boost. Can't risk that again.

[Journeyman]

8. I'm very curious about this . . .

When I was diagnosed with AFIB five years ago, I was told it was a permanent condition. Yet your claim to have had only two episodes intrigues me. Are there different forms of AFIB, one that is periodic while the other is persistent? I haven't had an episode since I got back into sinus rhythm my first year.

Also, which vaccine did you receive? I got Pfizer both for the initial dual dose and then for the booster and had no untoward symptoms at all, outside a sore arm for a day or so.

[lagomorph777]

9. I had Pfizer for all three. And regarding the docs...

Doctors ALWAYS want you to think that EVERY condition you have is permanent and incurable, but you MIGHT stay alive if you take a big pile of expensive Pharma products for the rest of your life. That's mostly a huge pile of bullshit.

I got rid of my AFIB by getting meat out of my diet. I had other reasons for doing so, and that was just kind of the last straw.

Most "permanent" conditions (diabetes, inflammation, arthritis, cancer, etc) are caused by a toxic diet and lifestyle. I can't claim to be a great adherent to good diet, but I eliminated the most toxic element and very quickly got a lot of benefits. My horrible migraines, which had plagued me for many years, disappeared entirely. I lost 40 lbs. I got more energy.

I don't take any drugs (and you can bet, the minute I got on the cardiologist merry go round, they started pushing all kinds of dangerous crap at me). They were really eager to get me to take statins, but I've seen what those do (nearly killed my wife). No thanks. So much easier to treat the source of the problem (poisonous diet).

[MineralMan]

11. Your anecdotal account is not evidence that anyone else should use

to make any medical decision. Period. Clearly, you have a negative bias regarding medications, though. You state that quite clearly.

I don't believe you should be advising anyone about whether or not to receive a COVID booster shot. I don't think you are qualified to do so.

[lagomorph777]

12. Thanks for your input.

I have not offered any advice on boosters. I have described my personal experience. Period.

Personally, I want to boost; I just need to find something safer for my personal situation next time. I have heard that Pfizer (and others?) are working on preventive antibody injections; in the current rapidly-mutating virus situation, they might last as long as an actual vaccine (exogenous antibodies wear off/disappear, but so it seems to the endogenous ones, and in any case, the threat surface is changing).

[MineralMan]

14. Again, your personal account is not valid evidence

that the Pfizer vaccine is unsafe for people to take, but that is the message you appear to be trying to convey.

If you don't think it is safe for you, do not take it. Please, however, do not do anything to discourage others from protecting themselves with this vaccine that has a very long record of safety for the vast, vast numbers of people who have been protected by it.

Single accounts of any kind are evidence of nothing general, and might even not be valid for that person, either

It is best to remain silent rather than to risk causing anxiety for others regarding their own protection against COVID-19. You have no information that is useful to them, frankly. Talk to your physician about your individual concerns. Don't just share those concerns based on what you think was your experience with the vaccine.

[lagomorph777]

15. I'm not trying to get it published at PubMed.

I shared my experience. You don't have to like it. I certainly didn't like all of it.

I do like the fact that I am about as protected as possible. I am still a fan of the Pfizer vaccine. I am still glad I got the 3rd shot. I am still likely to be a Pfizer customer when they come out with their next COVID prevention product.

Have a lovely day.

[MineralMan]

16. No. You published it here, where many people could read it.

Some of those people are worried about being vaccinated or boosted, despite the proven safety of both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. They have both been administered to tens of millions of people, with virtually no deaths or serious illnesses attributed to them. Some have side effects, as to recipients of all vaccines.

But, see, you not only attacked the pharmaceutical industry across the board, you even claimed that not eating meat cured your Afib, based on one incident of it. I've had Afib for years. It's mild, and I take no drugs for it. I eat meat. Your belief that stopping eating meat cured your Afib is yet another anecdotal thing that is not evidence of anything. So, you let us know that you eschew meat and mistrust the pharmaceutical industry. I suspect that you mistrust much of the medical care provided in this country.

So, you're stimulating fear, uncertainty, and doubt among a group of people, most of whom have no more medical knowledge than you do. You have no evidence that it is dangerous to take the vaccines or the boosters. You offer only your own fears of pharmaceutical companies and an anecdote about an Afib episode you had, while even telling us that we shouldn't eat meat, again with no evidence offered.

FUD. Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. That is what you are offering. We have official organizations and agencies that are charged with determining the safety and efficacy of medications and vaccines. They pore through hundreds of thousands of pages describing both clinical trials and the results of the use of those medications and vaccines that have already been approved. Those organizations and agencies offer advice to the population about them, based on science and data.

You offer a single anecdotal bit of guesswork. That brings me into the thread, where I have to point out that you actually have no evidence whatever that anyone should give any credence to when making their own decisions. Frankly, I would rather not have to do that here on DU. You can help keep me from having to do that, see. I hope you will.

[lagomorph777]

17. MM, I am done with your censorship.

So long.

[MineralMan]

19. I can't censor you. I can, however, caution you and

explain why what you wrote is not useful.

[StarryNite]

30. Thank you for your personal account.

I think it's important to hear the good and the not so good experiences of others. I never got the impression that you were trying to push your personal position on others.

[Chakaconcarne]

20. I appreciate your perspective and success with taking control of your health

The path of least resistance for many prescribers is often to treat with medications than to track, deconstruct one's lifestyle choices and re-train people to make and follow good choices long term. Some people can do this on their own, some cannot...but it takes a lot of work and trial and error. Many Doctors just don't have the time...

Medications absolutely have their place, but it's nice to (equally) here about the success others have had with non-pharm approaches to health.

I've heard this happen more than once....but just before my mother n law went on Hospice, she was give a month to live... In and out of the hospital with UTI's, meds added/changed....things just got worse.. She was taken off her 12 or so medications and lived a full year beyond that without re-introducing a single one of those medications.

[lagomorph777]

22. Honestly, I was quite lucky. I have not gone full-healthy-diet.

I got a bunch of improvements by doing something that was easy for me. It's usually not so simple, and patients usually don't comply.

[LuckyCharms]

24. Regarding your third paragraph...

Kind of a broad brush, no?

2 million Americans have type 1 diabetes. It is caused by an autoimmune reaction.

Type 2 diabetes if often hereditary, regardless of your lifestyle, etc.

Arthritis is often hereditary.

Certain cancers can run in families.

My wife's AFIB follows her mother's, and she has always kept a very healthy lifestyle.

I'm not trying to slam you here, but your statements add to the never ending falsehoods about medical conditions.

[lagomorph777]

26. All fair points.

I should have been more careful about the distinction between hereditary and lifestyle-based diseases. Of course, it's usually a bit of both, but our genome has not changed anywhere near as much as our chronic disease rates have, which points to the majority of cases having some connection to lifestyle.

It used to be, for example, that 99% of diabetes was type 1. Now (among adults) 91% is type 2. The rate of rise in various demographics is alarming, and does not correlate with a sudden change in genome.

[LuckyCharms]

28. Yours are fair points as well...

thanks.

[cally]

7. I hope someone finds the links but I're read that too many is not a good idea

But how you define too many is not clear at all.

[MineralMan]

10. No, not really.

When you get a booster vaccine to a vaccine you have already received, what happens is that your immune system says, "What's this? Oh, yeah...I remember this. I'm supposed to gear up and fight it off. Done it before, but let's do it again."

Vaccines are training for your immune system. Sometimes, it needs a refresher course to keep it active against a particular pathogen. That's why you get a Tetanus booster every 10 years. Or, you're supposed to, anyhow. These days, you also get boosted for whooping cough and diphtheria at the same time. Cant hurt. They don't really make just a Tetanus booster by itself any longer.

If you can get a fourth COVID booster, get one.

[Jack from Charlotte]

13. Is there any info regarding switching companies?

I've had all 3 vaccinations with Moderna. Any information of benefit to switching to Pfizer for #4?

[MineralMan]

18. Well, after reviewing a lot of case where the vaccines have been mixed,

the CDC says it's OK to do that. So far, they have not said that it is better to mix them, but that it's OK to do that and you get the benefit of a booster dose if you do.

I've had three Moderna doses, too. My wife got Pfizer and a Pfizer booster. We'll each probably opt for the the same vaccines we have already taken for the fourth booster, if both are available to us.

So, really, there is no definitive answer to your question, as far as I've been able to determine.

[ProfessorGAC]

21. What MM Said

CDC did, indeed, authorize flipping between mRNA vaccines.
I found out right here at DU after I drove to a different town, because their CVS had Moderna & the one here in town only had Pfizer.
I only drove 20 miles so I might have done it anyway.
But, after the fact, someone (Celerity, I think) pointed me to a CDC page where it said mixing was ok.

[Hugin]

31. I flipped for my booster.

From Pfizer to Moderna. I didn't intend to, it simply worked out that way. Although, I had read it was safe to do a flip.

I also had my 3rd so early it was the full dose and not the booster dose.

My SO has had Moderna all the way.

All of my information is around a year old. However, at that time the Moderna doses were higher on the first two than the Pfizer.

Benefit? I haven't seen any real evidence one is preferable to the other and all I can really personally attest to is that I didn't experience any ill effects.

[lagomorph777]

23. I've heard that it's approved to do so.

I am not sure they've decided it's better to do so. In theory, seems like it might be a good scheme, to trigger a variety of new antibodies. But that's just my guess.

[KentuckyWoman]

25. Polio has 4.

Flu is yearly.

[beaglelover]

27. Personally I'm holding off on a 4th shot unless something changes dramatically and vaxed

people start dying in droves. There are no studies on the long term effects of these MRNA vaccines. And there have been cases of heart issues, blood clots, etc. which were caused by the vaccines. I'm taking a wait and see attitude before injecting a 4th MRNA vaccine.

[lagomorph777]

29. I'll definitely get something,

but had trouble with #3 and would prefer some kind of change. Maybe that antibody that Pfizer is working on? I hope they bring something out soon.

[cally]

32. I'm waiting for next surge

Before getting 4th dose so I can have maximum protection when cases rise