General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMitt's religion DOES matter, and this one sentence shows why:
"You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the Law of Consecration as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion. Each of you bow your head and say yes... that will do."
Mitt took this oath in a Mormon temple, and reaffirms it every time he goes back for another endowment session. I took that oath myself some years ago, before I realized that mormonism is basically just Scientology 1.0 and got the hell out of dodge. And I knew what it really meant.
So, tell me, are you comfortable with any potential POTUS taking an oath like this one?
Enrique
(27,461 posts)white_wolf
(6,238 posts)Enrique
(27,461 posts)and I have never given Harry Reid's religion a second thought.
arbusto_baboso
(7,162 posts)BIG difference.
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)And that's despite my disagreement with Reid on reproductive rights and despite my general dissatisfaction with his performance as Majority Leader, both of which are to me more significant negatives than his religion.
arbusto_baboso
(7,162 posts)INHERENT in mormonism.
I'm telling you as someone who was in the 'belly of the beast'; mormonism promotes in its members duplicity and extremely flexible ethics. Mitt isn't just scum because of his politics. He's scum because of the religious culture in which he was raised.
csziggy
(34,137 posts)Then told me it did not matter because stealing from non-Mormons did not count as a crime.
I didn't trust his word, but from what I have learned over the years about the LDS church, I do not disbelieve these days.
white_wolf
(6,238 posts)especially if it leads to converts. It's called lying for the Lord.
csziggy
(34,137 posts)To everybody, all the time.
LiberalFighter
(51,054 posts)from being on a jury or testifying.
onenote
(42,748 posts)If a persons religion requires them to protect the faith over giving true testimony or fair judgement, why would we not disqualify them from service on a jury or sworn statement in court?
Granted it creates a slippery slope. How could you allow them to enter into any contract with anyone not of their own faith?
onenote
(42,748 posts)by government edict from serving on a jury or giving testimony? Because we have laws against perjury and if someone lies, that's how its dealt with, not by presupposing that because of someone's religious faith that they will lie? Because its a ridiculous, anti-democratic (both small d and capital D) idea?
For starters....
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)With what happened when he was heading Bain Capital, is it no wonder Romney gets called "Gordon Gekko in magic underwear"?
Certainly, not all, or even most Mormons are like this - most Mormons, as with most human beings as a whole, are decent people with hearts filled with kindness.
But what I see with the person who's a Mormon who thinks it's OK to steal from non-Mormons, and with Mitt Romney, who's a Mormon, but bankrupted companies and destroyed jobs and livelihoods at Bain Capital, who stood in the way of a woman who had to terminate her pregnancy to save her life and health, even after the Mormon Church approved the procedure, and who made his dog ride on the roof of his car, is the kind of person who used religion to think he's a righteous and moral person even right after doing horrible things. Who thinks he's a "pinch-hitter for God". Who is incredibly dangerous because he's capable of doing absolutely anything, no matter how depraved, and then using his religion to delude himself into thinking he's one of the Good Guys.
csziggy
(34,137 posts)The guy who stole from me never mentioned his religion until he used it as an excuse that it was OK for him to steal from non-Mormons.
And I don't think that is a Mormon trait - other people who use their religion as an excuse for things that are not in the mainstream norm fit perfectly with your last sentence. And I see that in a LOT of fundamentalists of a lot of religions.
Santorum, the ayatollahs, the Westboro mob - name the fundamentalist and they are dangerous for this reason.
onenote
(42,748 posts)Was he the exception that proved the rule or is it simply wrong to treat all members of a religious faith as stereotypes (e.g., scum)? Anyone remember Mo Udall? Stewart Udall? Mormons. And not duplicitous or unethical people
Logical
(22,457 posts)white_wolf
(6,238 posts)Honestly, they would never admit, but I'm betting the Prophet and his quorum of 12 apostles miss the days of theocracy.
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)They run Utah. They own the majority of elected officials in this state, and they own the majority of voters too.
After living here for 2 1/2 years now, I will likely never vote for a Mormon.
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)I lived in Utah for six months in 2005. It was the longest decade of my life.
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)says you are 100% right. Starting with the Book of Mormon which is about 10x more bat-shit crazy than the bible. I always marvel that the angel Moroni translated those plates in Elizabethan English in 19th Century America. lolz
Julie
white_wolf
(6,238 posts)but realized it was too boring to sell so he repacked it as a religious text. A very interesting thing to note is that Smith called it the most perfect book on our earth and the cornerstone of the Mormon religion, but since it was published there have been almost 200 changes made to the "most perfect book on earth."
Mariana
(14,860 posts)It is such a pretentious affair and yet so slow, so sleepy, such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print.
If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle. Keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate.
http://www.salamandersociety.com/marktwain/
HeiressofBickworth
(2,682 posts)Smith had a dispute with the widow of some guy who claimed that HE wrote the book that Smith called the Book of Mormon. The widow of the proported author threatened to sue for copyright infringement but "mysteriously" her only copy of her husband's work disappeared. Wish I could provide a link, but the story was told to me by my first husband who was raised in Utah and he had some not-so-pleasant memories of his youth there.
niyad
(113,533 posts)prophet (or whatever they are calling the old man these days) is destined to rule the US.
and it fascinated me to learn that, in their belief, it is NOT "faith affirming" to learn the actual history of the lds, not to mention how incredibly patriarchal they are.
so, even without that oath, no, I don't want a mormon, or any other patriarchal religionist, as president.
get the red out
(13,468 posts)But I totally agree! I read a Vanity Fair article yesterday that discussed his actions as a Mormon Bishop. He told a single mother to give up her child or be excommunicated.
I disagree with the extremist "values" that devout, active Mormons hold since I am a feminist and pro-choice. Yes, his religion does make a difference to me.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)That tells me everything I need to know, the LDS is one giant scam.
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)isn't there a weird thing like that in every religion? Is Mormonism any worse that any religion just because of this freaky oath? I don't think I would want to say that a Mormon can never be president. Seems discriminatory to me.
arbusto_baboso
(7,162 posts)when I was younger.
Mormons hide the weirdest shit from outsiders. With most other religions, the weird shit is usually obvious and visible at first glance. Secrecy makes the weird shit inherently worse.
white_wolf
(6,238 posts)Nothing about Church teaching or doctrine was hidden from me. Infact I had to go through a rather long class before I was allowed to be baptized or take communion. For all it's faults, at the least the Catholic Church was up front with me about it's teaching.
arbusto_baboso
(7,162 posts)And that's why there is no worry about someone being Prez just because they are Catholic.
Unless they're complete wackadoodles like Santorum, or corrupt bastages like Gingrich, but that doesn't reflect on the religion as a whole.
anAustralianobserver
(633 posts)including the Catholic Church; but it's true some religions/denominations like Presbyterianism (afaik) are more benign than others.
Watch out if both:
1) Women are mostly excluded from leadership meetings (also applies to the business world, military, etc)
and, 2) they have their reps or de facto reps on political TV regularly.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)gratuitous
(82,849 posts)I mean, can you imagine how absolutely nutz any elected official would govern if he or she followed that? That's crazy talk is all that is.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)similar statement in The Book of Mormon? Or any other religious book? There is enough crazy to cherry pick from all of them. I think it's funny when one religious group pretends that they are much more realistic than another religious group.
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)So I chose a quote from it. But I think it's funny when someone guts and stuffs someone else's post and pretends to know all about that person's motivations.
Wait; is "funny" the word I want? Well, according to the faultless juries of DU, it's probably best if I just leave it at that.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)I mean, Christianity has some real crazy shit in the bible too, but who cares, all our presidents have been one, at least in name.
Plus, how do we know Willard is a devout Mormon anyway, he probably changed his religion to the almighty dollar in secret years ago if we look at his business career.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)John Quincy Adams was also a Unitarian. Jefferson expressed great interest in the Unitarian religion.
They were probably not the only non-Christian presidents we have had. But people who aspire to be president probably do not wish to discuss it if they aren't Christian. The controversy over Romney illustrates the reason. Romney probably thinks of himself as fitting into the Christian category even though he is Mormon.
former9thward
(32,068 posts)He even published his own edition of the Bible to increase its readability and it became known as the Jefferson Bible. For decades the U.S. government issued the Jefferson Bible to incoming members of Congress. Jefferson also held Sunday Bible services in the Capitol building.
white_wolf
(6,238 posts)It removed every reference to Jesus's divinity and other supernatural occurrences in the New Testament. The divinity of Jesus Christ is a core doctrine of Christianity, you can no more deny Jesus's divinity and be a Christian than one can deny the prophethood of Mohamed and be a Muslim. Jefferson was not a Christian, he was a Deist.
former9thward
(32,068 posts)"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man."
"The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses."
"I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others."
"I am a real Christian that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
All these are taken from:
Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Ellery Bergh, editor (Washington, D.C.: The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904)
white_wolf
(6,238 posts)That is the cornerstone of Christianity. Jefferson was not a Christian in the historical sense of the word or in the sense that it is used today. Christianity is a religion with certain belies and doctrines, Jefferson did not hold those beliefs. Show me a quote where he says he believes that Jesus was the divine, and died for the sins of mankind. That is a requirement to be a Christian, whether one is Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)but wasn't because there were no Unitarian churches in Virginia at the time. In those days, Unitarians were regarded as a liberal Protestant denomination.
For more information on Jefferson's beliefs;
http://www.adherents.com/people/pj/Thomas_Jefferson.html
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Monticello Aug. 22.13.
Dear Sir (addressing John Adams):
. . . .
Your approbation of my outline to Dr. Priestly is a great gratification to me; and I very much suspect that if thinking men would have the courage to think for themselves, and to speak what they think, it would be found they do not differ in religious opinions, as much as is supposed. I remember to have heard Dr. Priestly say that if all England would candidly examine themselves, and confess, they would find that Unitarianism was the religion of all: And I observe a bill is now depending in parliament for the relief of Anti-Trinitarians. It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet the one is not three, and the three are not one: to divide mankind by a single letter into [Jefferson wrote two Greek words for which I do not have the alphabet] ("consubstantialists and like-substantialists" . But this constitutes the craft, power and profit of the priests. Sweep away their gossamer fabrics of factitious religion, and they would catch no more flies. We should all then, like the quakers, live without an order of priests, moralise [sic] for ourselves, follow the oracle of conscience, and say nothing about what no man can understand, nor therefore believe; for I suppose belief to be the assent of the mind to an intelligible proposition."
. . . .
You are right in supposing, in one of yours, that I had not read much of Priestley's Predestination, his No-soul system, or his controversy with Horsley. But I have read his Corruptions of Christianity, and Early Opinions of Jesus, over and over again; and I rest on them, and on Middleton's writings, especially his letters from Rome, and to Waterland, as the basis of my own faith. These writings have never been answered, nor can be answered, by quoting historical proofs, as they have none. For these facts therefore I cling to their learning, so much superior to my own.
The Adams-Jefferson Letters, The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams edited by Lester J. Cappon, 1959, University of North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, page 368-69.
As for Rev. Conyers Middleton
Middleton (1683-1750) was a Fellow of Trinity, Cambridge, and a Church of England clergyman described by Leslie Stephen as a "covert" enemy of Christianity and "one of the few divines who can fairly be accused of conscious insincerity". Despite this interesting judgment, Middleton's is not a well-known name. Indeed, he has been largely forgotten. This should now be corrected. In an essay, published for the first time in the collection History and the Enlightenment (Yale, £30), Hugh Trevor-Roper establishes his importance in the history of intellectual doubt, and demonstrates his influence on Gibbon and two generations later on Macaulay. A man who mattered so much to our two greatest historians deserves to be rescued from oblivion. His career was admittedly unsatisfying. Despite the patronage of Sir Robert Walpole, he never secured the preferment in the Church that he repeatedly sought. His opinions were regarded as subversive, even heretical.
Middleton's hero was Cicero, whose attitude to religion, expressed in the work De Natura Deorum, was founded in reason. That was Middleton's own position. Meanwhile, he discovered that, as Trevor-Roper puts it, "those ceremonies and forms of Catholic devotion which Protestants regarded as idolatrous were identical with, and copied from, and continuous with, those of pagan Rome." This conclusion might be regarded as a stout defence of Protestantism and the position of the Church of England.
Middleton, however, was not content to stop there. He proceeded over the last 30 years of his life to assail the Christian citadel and undermine its defences. There were three stout bastions: the Word of God as revealed to Moses and recorded in the first five books of the Old Testament; the miracles wrought by Christ and the Fathers of the early Church, which proved that the Christian Church embodied the fulfilment of the Divine Plan for mankind; and the prophecies which prepared the way for the coming of Christ.
. . . .
http://standpointmag.co.uk/critique-oct-10-allan-massie-do-the-times-require-a-conyers-middleton
Jefferson may have been a member of the Anglican church, but his beliefs, his thinking were not at all Christian. He was a deist, a free-thinker and although not formally a member of the Unitarian religion, very much a Unitarian in his thought. The Jefferson Bible, if you are not familiar with it, omits the miracles and a lot of other material that Jefferson did not believe.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)former9thward
(32,068 posts)Just google "Jefferson Sunday services capitol" and you will get plenty of links. Google "Jefferson Bible" and you will get lots of links. There is a lot of information out there about religion and the founders. Some of it is contradictory. You just have to take the whole of it and make up your mind. But to say the founders were not religious is just silly. The very first law passed by the first Congress was to print Bibles for the Indians. But we are supposed to believe these people were not religious. Nonsense.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)believed in the morality of Christianity, but not the theological gobbledy-gook about the trinity and miracles and angles. He was in his heart a deist and a Unitarian and admitted it.
Priestly was a Unitarian minister and someone who was admired by several of our leading Founding Fathers including Benjamin Franklin and Jefferson.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I have a copy and am very familiar with it. Jefferson kept the message and left out things like the miracles and other things that were beyond his belief.
former9thward
(32,068 posts)It is clear Jefferson was not a conventional Christian, as least as we think of that in the modern sense, but to say he was anti-religious or something like that is just a rewriting of history.
Jefferson and Madison held church services in the Capitol building (the House side) -- can you imagine any modern candidate advocating that?
A quote: "Jefferson asserted that he was a "Christian, in the only sense in which [Jesus] wished any one to be." In an attached syllabus, Jefferson compared the "merit of the doctrines of Jesus" with those of the classical philosophers and the Jews. Jefferson pronounced Jesus' doctrines, though "disfigured by the corruptions of schismatising followers" far superior to any competing system. Jefferson declined to consider the "question of [Jesus] being a member of the god-head, or in direct communication with it, claimed for him by some of his followers, and denied by others."
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)He corresponded with at least two Unitarian ministers, Joseph Priestly and Adrian Van der Kemp.
Letter from Thomas Jefferson to Joseph Priestley
Thomas Jefferson
April 9, 1803
"Dear Sir,--While on a short visit lately to Monticello, I received from you a copy of your comparative view of Socrates & Jesus, and I avail myself of the first moment of leisure after my return to acknolege the pleasure I had in the perusal of it, and the desire it excited to see you take up the subject on a more extensive scale. In consequence of some conversation with Dr. Rush, in the year 1798--99, I had promised some day to write him a letter giving him my view of the Christian system. I have reflected often on it since, & even sketched the outlines in my own mind. I should first take a general view of the moral doctrines of the most remarkable of the antient philosophers, of whose ethics we have sufficient information to make an estimate, say of Pythagoras, Epicurus, Epictetus, Socrates, Cicero, Seneca, Antoninus. I should do justice to the branches of morality they have treated well; but point out the importance of those in which they are deficient.
I should then take a view of the deism and ethics of the Jews, and show in what a degraded state they were, and the necessity they presented of a reformation. I should proceed to a view of the life, character, & doctrines of Jesus, who sensible of incorrectness of their ideas of the Deity, and of morality, endeavored to bring them to the principles of a pure deism, and juster notions of the attributes of God, to reform their moral doctrines to the standard of reason, justice & philanthropy, and to inculcate the belief of a future state, This view would purposely omit the question of his divinity, & even his inspiration.
To do him justice, it would be necessary to remark the disadvantages his doctrines have to encounter, not having been committed to writing by himself, but by the most unlettered of men, by memory, long after they had heard them from him; when much was forgotten, much misunderstood,& presented in very paradoxical shapes. Yet such are the fragments remaining as to show a master workman, and that his system of morality was the most benevolent & sublime probably that has been ever taught, and consequently more perfect than those of any of the antient philosophers. His character & doctrines have received still greater injury from those who pretend to be his special disciples, and who have disfigured and sophisticated his actions & precepts, from views of personal interest, so as to induce the unthinking part of mankind to throw off the whole system in disgust, and to pass sentence as an impostor on the most innocent, the most benevolent, the most eloquent and sublime character that ever has been exhibited to man. This is the outline; but I have not the time, & still less the information which the subject needs. It will therefore rest with me in contemplation only. You are the person who of all others would do it best, and most promptly. You have all the materials at hand, and you put together with ease. I wish you could be induced to extend your late work to the whole subject. I have not heard particularly what is the state of your health; but as it has been equal to the journey to Philadelphia, perhaps it might encourage the curiosity you must feel to see for once this place, which nature has formed on a beautiful scale, and circumstances destine for a great one. As yet we are but a cluster of villages; we cannot offer you the learned society of Philadelphia; but you will have that of a few characters whom you esteem, & a bed & hearty welcome with one who will rejoice in every opportunity of testifying to you his high veneration & affectionate attachment."
http://www.beliefnet.com/resourcelib/docs/135/Letter_from_Thomas_Jefferson_to_Joseph_Priestley_1.html
And in a letter from Monticello, April 11, 1823 addressed to John Adams, Jefferson wrote:
Which truly translated means `in the beginning God existed, and reason (or mind) was with God, and that mind was God. This was in the beginning with God. All things were created by it, and without it was made not one thing which was made'. Yet this text, so plainly declaring the doctrine of Jesus that the world was created by the supreme, intelligent being, has been perverted by modern Christians to build up a second person of their tritheism by a mistranslation of the word logos. One of it's legitimate meanings indeed is `a word.' But, in that sense, it makes an unmeaning jargon: while the other meaning `reason', equally legitimate, explains rationally the eternal preexistence of God, and his creation of the world. Knowing how incomprehensible it was that `a word,' the mere action or articulation of the voice and organs of speech could create a world, they undertake to make of this articulation a second preexisting being, and ascribe to him, and not to God, the creation of the universe. The Atheist here plumes himself on the uselessness of such a God, and the simpler hypothesis of a self-existent universe. The truth is that the greatest enemies to the doctrines of Jesus are those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them for the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors.
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/jefferson_adams.html
I have the book containing these letters as well as a copy of the Jefferson Bible. Jefferson was a free-thinker who strongly rejected the theology of Calvin and detested papists. He considered that he and a few others (including Unitarian Joseph Priestly) understood Jesus' teachings. Having read his writings and those of some other Enlightenment figures, I would say Jefferson most definitely was what we would call a deist although he believed that he understood Jesus' true teachings far better than Christians of his time.
This is far more than anyone could read, but I came across another great letter, this one from Adams to Jefferson dated Feb. 2, 1816. I don't find a copy online. Maybe I will copy-type it another day. It is great.
Critters2
(30,889 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Without higher courts to ensure doctrinal uniformity among the congregations, Congregationalists have been more diverse than other Reformed churches. Despite the efforts of Calvinists to maintain the dominance of their system, some Congregational churches, especially in the older settlements of New England, gradually developed leanings toward Arminianism, Unitarianism, Deism, and transcendentalism.
By the 1750s, several Congregational preachers were teaching the possibility of universal salvation, an issue that caused considerable conflict among its adherents on the one side and hard-line Calvinists and sympathizers of the First Great Awakening on the other. In another strain of change, the first church in the United States with an openly Unitarian theology, the belief in the single personality of God, was established in Boston, Massachusetts in 1785 (in a former Anglican parish.) By 1800, all but one Congregational church in Boston had Unitarian preachers teaching the strict unity of God, the subordinate nature of Christ, and salvation by character.
Harvard University, founded by Congregationalists, became a center of Unitarian training. Prompted by a controversy over an appointment in the theology school at Harvard, in 1825 the Unitarian churches separated from Congregationalism. Most of the Unitarian "descendants" hold membership in the Unitarian Universalist Association, founded in the 1960s by a merger with the theologically similar Universalists. This group had dissented from Calvinist orthodoxy on the basis of their belief that all persons could find salvation (as opposed to the Calvinist idea of double predestination, excluding some from salvation.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregational_church
Critters2
(30,889 posts)I graduated from the Congregationalist seminary that was founded when Harvard went Unitarian. John Adams was still a Congregationalist.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)Look at what Grover Norquist's* oath did to our country.
*Firefox spell check for 'Norquist' is 'Inquisitor'
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)One state under their control is bad enough.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)ok... *shakes head* I don't see why Christianity is any more acceptable than Mormonism.
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)The question was if I was OK with Romney's Mormonism. I am not. That doesn't mean I'm ok with any other cult controlling any government, anywhere. None of them should be in charge of anything.
WingDinger
(3,690 posts)WingDinger
(3,690 posts)BiggJawn
(23,051 posts)..."Gawd Bless You, and Gawd Bless the YOO-Knighted States of Murrika!", too.
catrose
(5,073 posts)WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Sounds stupid now, right?
Right.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)If elected he would likely be horrendous ... that will have to do with his greed and complete lack of empathy and compassion.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)They were never attempting to establish a temporal theocracy.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)will ask his brother satan. (Mormon belief)
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)There are powerful religious forces who control vast money resources for candidates. Failing to take into account ANY presidential candidates religious vows is a huge mistake. We must be vigilant or I honestly believe it would be verrrry easy for us to fall into a pseudo democratic theocracy....
The Family is but one part of a large network of despicable religious forces trying to force their beliefs on the rest of America. There are others I'm sure, like Opus Dei etc.
Response to arbusto_baboso (Original post)
Post removed
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)Palin and Bachmann frighten me equally as much as Mitt does. I don't relish seeing zealots of any stripe in office. Give me a clear thinking atheist as an option; I'll vote for them every day and twice on Sunday, given the chance.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)I hope the Mormon religion does not become an issue in the coming elections. That is not the American way. However, I am sure the bloggers will push this stuff on the internets so its going to be out there regardless.
Edweird
(8,570 posts)Only Congress has any power. So, why would it matter? Imagine what a Mormon would 'be up against'.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)It is my understanding that devout Mormon's must do what the Prophet/church tells them. As I understand it with Prop 8, the church told members how much they had to donate to stop Prop 8 from being defeated. If they didn't make the donations they were told to make, they basically were threatened with revocation of their membership if they didn't donate. (http://huff.to/yh9apO).
So, if the Prophet decided that Romney as President must do something according to a vision, as a devout Mormon, wouldn't Romney have to do that or risk having his membership revoked?
I remember years ago when I was a Bishop I had President (Heber J.) Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home....Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: "My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it." Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, "But you don't need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray." (In Conference Report, October 1), p. 78)
http://www.lds-mormon.com/fourteen.shtml
People who aren't worried about that should be, IMO and it should be brought up. This is a huge issue.
Texas Lawyer
(350 posts)from the anti-Catholic arguments raised against JFK.
From my perspective, the beliefs and more specific tenets of Mormonism seem a bit silly (perhaps marginally less silly than the than a literal belief in the ancient Greek pantheon and marginally more silly than the beliefs and tenets of Unitarian monotheism), but I'm certain that most religious people think my beliefs are worse than silly and so it is best that neither side should feel obliged to argue in favor or against the validity of matters which we have all come to accept in the absence of conclusive evidence.
If we are to rip Romney down based on his faith (which I would call a superstition at best and a religious prejudice at worst), how can we draw a meaningful line between Romney's beliefs and Santorum's beliefs, or between Santorum's beliefs and Obama's beliefs, or Obama's beliefs and mine?
If we head toward questioning Romney based on the dogma of his faith, then we have taken a step down a path that ultimately leads to religious persecution.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)And the light emitting from your space is well-placed, illuminating it all the way to the end.
I think your assessment is the only rational possibility. Although I believe the election of Obama indicated that we are moving in the right direction, we may have overestimated the number of "content of character votes." Progress is a snail.
I share your atheistness, and the realization that it would be a wasted dream, to believe there will ever be enough "content of character votes" for us.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)TheKentuckian
(25,029 posts)on the population.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)That is some really messed up shit and people who believe that theocratic BS have no place in a SECULAR government.
I will never vote for a Mormon, even of the person is a Dem like Harry Reid.
rusty fender
(3,428 posts)It's in The Constitution. Look, I don't like religion. I am an atheist, but, come on, our side's complaints about about Mitt's Mormonism is exactly like the right wing's complaints about "Obama's Muslim faith."
You would do everyone a favor if you dropped the whole "I'm afraid of his religion" argument.
FreeState
(10,577 posts)arbusto_baboso
(7,162 posts)And you labeling any criticism of mormon belief as "anti-mormon" indicates to me that you'rte not as "ex" a mormon as you want everyone here to believe.
For REAL TRUTH on mormonism, I would suggest this site: www.exmormon.org
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)You're not suggesting that only a President who is not affiliated with any religion will suffice, are you?
onenote
(42,748 posts)I'm also comfortable with a potential POTUS reciting the Nicene Creed or the Apostle's Creed. Or reciting the Shema or Maimonides 13 Principles of Faith. And so on...
Change has come
(2,372 posts)I find the concept of a Mormon "Kingdom of God on the earth" to be exceptionally creepy.
Jennicut
(25,415 posts)I think in the United States everyone (including a President) should have the right to practice or not practice whatever religion they want to. Just don't force it on me. I am not a Mormon and don't wish to be one but religious freedom (and the freedom to not believe) is a pretty important part of what makes the United States what it is.