2 Arizona sisters who never returned home from trip to Europe died by assisted suicide

[demmiblue]

PHOENIX - Two Arizona sisters who worked in the medical field were supposed to return from Europe in February but never did. Officials have now confirmed the Phoenix-area sisters died by assisted suicide in Switzerland.

On March 17, we first reported on Lila Ammouri and Susan Frazier, who traveled to Europe via a direct flight on Feb. 5 from Chicago to Zurich. The sisters were supposed to fly back on Feb. 13 and return to work on Feb. 15. Both failed to do so, which left their friends worried.

"They were in a very good position of their lives in terms of careers and what they have reached and accomplished, and there is no reason for them to not be returning on their own volition," said Dr. David Biglari.

Ammouri and Frazier's deaths were later confirmed by Jill Barwig with the Bureau of Consular Affairs of the United States Department of State.

https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/missing-women-colleagues-left-worried-after-2-sisters-never-returned-home-from-trip-to-europe

[Baitball Blogger]

1. Bizarre. Very elaborate ruse, if they didn't plan to leave instructions of a suicide note.

[Effete Snob]

2. That was a trip to die for

[chowder66]

3. Really?

[Effete Snob]

4. It's not as if this was some tragedy

They successfully made a deliberate decision to take advantage of legal self-determination services in Switzerland.

A few years ago, there was momentum in several states to make it legal here after the Dr. Kevorkian nutjob gave assisted suicide a bad name.

[chowder66]

5. Oh so that's your reason to make light of their death. Good to know.

[Effete Snob]

6. You have yourself a great day

I am PMing you a full refund, in view of your dissatisfaction with the services provided.

[chowder66]

7. Enjoy your insensitivity.

[Effete Snob]

8. I delight in it

[BlackSkimmer]

27. Wow, where are you on all the grave-dancing threads?

There’ve been about three a day since Thomas was hospitalized.

At least these women chose their fate of their own volition.

[brooklynite]

18. And is there a reason to be sad about their death?

Considering it was what they wanted?

[LisaL]

28. They had friends and relatives who seem completely puzzled by this.

NT

[Effete Snob]

34. I have friends and relatives puzzled by the fact I'm NOT dead yet

[Carlitos Brigante]

43. Now that, I can believe. nt

[Effete Snob]

45. .

[Effete Snob]

36. Can you imagine?

Making the choice to go out on your own terms and insisting that others be morose about it.

Doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

I respect their choice.

[electric_blue68]

41. Well, I feel bad for their family and friends...

hopefully there was nothing that could indicated...oh, say...
blackmail or something.

Having lost one long time friend at a youngish age (earlyish age - early 50's) to cancer about 13 years ago;
it hurt!


Imagine the pain and extra confusion for the whys for other family, and friends for a deliberate action vs illness (accident, or crime).

[RobinA]

46. Their Loved Ones

may not agree.

[JI7]

14. Yes really

[Oneironaut]

13. Oof. Lmao!

See you in hell

[USALiberal]

20. So you think this is fucking funny?

[Effete Snob]

40. No, it's not that funny

It’s well short of fucking funny.

[LiberalFighter]

9. The reporter failed in investigating and providing more information.

Like their ages. If they have living parents or other siblings.

[demmiblue]

15. There is more info at these links (one is The Daily Mail, fwiw):

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/switzerland-missing-sisters-assisted-suicide-b2041290.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10640721/Two-healthy-happy-Arizona-sisters-die-assisted-suicide-Swiss-clinic-brother-reveals.html

Very strange.

[LisaL]

25. They have a brother whom they didn't tell anything about this.

One was 49, the other 54.

[Effete Snob]

37. Perhaps they believed he would try to stop them.

I’m going to bet they knew their brother better than we do.

[BigmanPigman]

10. This goes against what I have read about assisted suicide in Switzerland.

From what I have read over the years, for someone to have assisted suicide they must have a non-curable illness that is very painful and there is no quality of life. You have to have medical documentation from doctors verifying this fact. This isn't an easy thing to do. The article doesn't even say that the women were ill. That is what doesn't make sense to me. Assisted suicide is to relieve pain before a long, lingering illness drags on.

CA has legalized assisted suicide for such cases but you have to be in terrible pain and not more than 6 months to live. Many doctors in CA won't do it for fear of lawsuits. You need 2 doctors to sign onto it.

[Coventina]

11. I had the same questions as you.

My understanding of the requirements is the same as yours and was wondering how this was accomplished.

[Celerity]

16. this will answer you questions

https://pegasos-association.com/faqs/

[BigmanPigman]

21. I read up on a similar group several years ago

and I also bought the Peaceful Pull Handbook, The 5 Last Acts and To Die Well. Some people go to Mexico to do it too, but with pills. It seemed like the more info I gathered the more I realized that there are a lot of small problems, especially with bureaucracies in various countries.

I find it odd that they would let 2 people do it together. That doesn't seem to go along with their agenda.

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. The Daily Mail article above says it's not the law, and Pegasos, in Basel, doesn't require illness

They started with the case of a 104 year old without a specific illness:

Professor Goodall was not sick. At 104 years of age, he simply said he had had enough and now was the time to go. His eyesight was failing, his mobility was going. Most importantly, he could not do the fieldwork that had sustained and driven him all his life.

The death of Professor Goodall raised important issues for the right to die movement in general, and for the individuals who would become the founding professionals at Pegasos.

Firstly, it showed that a person’s desire for a dignified and peaceful assisted death is not solely dependent on terminal illness. Old age and a failing quality of life can also play a role.

Secondly, David Goodall’s experience showed that the Swiss law on assisted suicide is well placed to serve the needs of people who may not fit the traditional criteria used in other places in the world where assisted suicide is legal.

https://pegasos-association.com/philosophy/

Now, that is about twice the age of the sisters (one of whom was a palliative care doctor), and he did have generally failing abilities, but they may feel that age doesn't matter either.

[BigmanPigman]

22. Can any suicidal person go there?

If so, why don't more do it? Is it about the $$$?

[LisaL]

26. It's not cheap.

NT

[RobinA]

47. Most Suicides

are impulsive, even if the person has thought about it. Not ALL! By the time the average suicidal person made it from here to Switzerland they'd have changed their minds. At least temporarily.

This story is odd. I'm sure there's plenty more to it, but if I were that brother I'd be doing some investigation.

[BigmanPigman]

51. I can see how the impulse factor would

keep many from doing this.

Yes, the brother should in estigate this. It doesn't seem kosher to me.

[Meowmee]

69. I am wondering

Why it costs 7-10,000, euros I guess, for this. In Canada it costs a pittance by comparison. No, any suicidal person can’t go there according to their and other websites. You have to be mentally ok, or deemed to be, and you have to have a significant non mental health illness which is either terminal or causing poor quality of life. A doctor has to review your records and approve it. Official gov documents etc. have to be filed. Depression and other mental health issues do not qualify.

[smirkymonkey]

32. Pegasos was started in 2019 and their standards are a bit looser than some of the other

organizations. https://pegasos-association.com/

[BigmanPigman]

33. Yes, I must have been reading of a different group

in 2016.

[Samrob]

12. Just doesn't seem right to me. nt

[mnhtnbb]

17. Assisted suicide in Switzerland

is available without the legal restrictions where it is available in the US

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/assisted-suicide-remains-open-for-swiss-living-abroad/46947466

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-13405376

[hunter]

23. Could be anything sisters might share. Huntington's disease, early onset dementia, cancer...

... we don't know.

[LisaL]

24. They didn't even tell their brother they were going to do it.

Brother says they were healthy.

[BlackSkimmer]

29. Yeah, I found the story kind of sad, even though it was their choice.

Interesting though, and I’m sure there’s more to the story we’ll never know.

One was a doctor and the other was a nurse.

[LisaL]

30. Yep. Friends and relatives seem completely puzzled by this.

So if anything was going on, apparently other people didn't know and didn't notice.

[Mariana]

77. That's not suspicious, in and of itself.

I can think of several hypothetical reasons they might have decided not to tell him. Similarly, if one or both of them had some horrible diagnosis, the symptoms of which were not obvious, they weren't obligated to tell him about that, either.

[Meowmee]

31. Something is suspicious here

Their brother said they were in good mental and physical health and friends said they received suspicious emails from them which they believed weren’t actually written by them.

[Effete Snob]

35. Of course they were in good mental health

One reason for a doctor to refuse to assist a terminal self determination is if the patient is depressed, and hence the choice is a consequence of mental illness instead of a volitional choice.

Being in good mental health is an affirmative requirement.

[Meowmee]

38. So I guess

They will not allow someone who suffers from terrible depression which can cause unbearable life long pain to commit assisted suicide then….

I still see no reason given for it… and it seems suspicious.

[Effete Snob]

39. Kind of a paradox

But it is preferable that the decision not be a product of otherwise treatable depression.

Given that others may not have been privy to their medical records, I don’t see why they would owe the world an explanation.

[Meowmee]

42. Maybe their brother would like an explanation

I think he deserves one. And there needs to an explanation of the suspicious emails as well.

[Effete Snob]

50. I know nothing about their relationship with their brother

Nor would I presume to know to what he is entitled.

Obviously, the two sisters didn't think he deserved an explanation, so I'm not going to second guess their judgment on that point.

[Meowmee]

54. Read the articles

He is understandably upset and deserves an explanation. Legally I would guess he can pursue that since they are no longer alive. Either way the suspicious emails need to be explained.

[Mariana]

73. It appears the sisters decided it was none of his business.

"In the specific case, the on-site clarifications by the authorities revealed that the assisted suicide had taken place within the legal framework, so that there was no criminal relevance. For this reason, the Basel-Landschaft public prosecutor's office did not open a criminal investigation," Lutz wrote.

Do you think the Swiss officials are lying?

[Meowmee]

75. Yes I read that, ty😀

[RobinA]

48. Yep, No Depressed Person

has ever faked good mental health.

[Effete Snob]

49. Interesting thing about depression

I guess we should fire all the psychiatrists, since they are readily fooled.

So, the idea here is that two people were clinically depressed to the point of being suicidal, but managed to jointly arrange a trip to Switzerland and deal with all the arrangements needed there to engage this service.

Here's the thing... One of the saving graces of depression is that it impairs people's abilities to act on complex, or even simple plans. One of the things that keeps a lot of people from committing suicide is the depression itself.

That is why you find many instances - and indeed warnings in the commercials - that anti-depressant medications can in some cases result in suicide.

Why? Because the anti-depressant medication gives them enough of a boost to go buy that rope, gun or whatever it is that they use to kill themselves and actually carry out the plan.

But, no, I find it very unlikely that two people - both depressed - cooperatively worked out a plan over the period of time necessary to arrange the services, take the flight, etc., and then faked a screening psych exam, simply to do this. In fact, it's preposterous.

[RobinA]

64. I Have No Clue

what the idea here is. I was reacting to your assertion that they were in good mental health. I responded with my own speculation.

For me, the notion that two physically and mentally healthy middle-aged people fly off to Switzerland to kill themselves, leaving behind family, friends, and coworkers is preposterous.

[Effete Snob]

67. They may have been diagnosed with something

Because here’s the thing about degenerative diseases.

If one is diagnosed with, say, Alzheimer’s, you can still be very high functioning.

But they know that function will decline.

There are people in that situation who would prefer to check out while they still have the faculties and the legal capacity to do so. If they wait too long, they could lose the ability to volitionally do so.

So, yes, people that do this sort of thing are usually in good physical and mental health. That is the way they choose to go, at the very beginning stage of a terminal condition.

[hunter]

53. I'm really good at faking "good mental health."

Have about half-a-century experience.

By some miracle I cannot explain I managed to build a social safety net that will catch me when I fall.

At my worst the first thing that flies out the window is my ability to judge my own mental health.

Fortunately for me I've been mostly affable and harmless whenever I've suffered a major disconnect from reality.

Reason number one I'll never be a politician.

That Hunter guy has been locked up in a psych ward.

Nevertheless, the world may be crazier than I am.

[artemisia1]

44. Since they are sisters, I wonder if some shared childhood trauma could be the source of this.

Not necessarily home abuse, could be something like a summer camp where they were abused by a staff member. Perhaps church, perhaps a neighbor. We'll never know and I can say this is what it is, but, imo, I would not be terribly surprised. This is sad.

[JanMichael]

52. Maybe they just didn't feel like continuing on? Why is that so hard to believe?

There doesn't have to be significant trauma to get fed up with life.

Some siblings are close maybe they just had the same desire to end it.

Or maybe something weird happened like they both started getting ALS or something. Who knows we may never find out. That said I believe adults have a right to life and lack of life. The fact that we make it so difficult to actually get assisted suicide in America is a joke a sad joke.

I don't find it sad.

[Meowmee]

55. You can only do assisted suicide if you are terminally ill

Or if you have a chronic debilitating condition I believe that causes terrible pain and makes life impossible or miserable and which can’t be treated well. Depression etc. will not be accepted as a reason. A doctor has to approve it and review medical records.

This case is suspicious. Their brother said they were in good health as did close friends. Their friends stated they received suspicious emails from them which did not appear to be written by them. It needs to be properly investigated. I looked up one assisted suicide organization in Switzerland which says they charge $7-10,000 . In Canada it appears to significantly less expensive in most provinces.

[smirkymonkey]

56. Actually, not at the place they chose. They won't let just anyone check out for any reason, but

their criteria is much less restrictive. See their website:

https://pegasos-association.com/

In a way, I think it's kind of a good thing. I think their should be an easy, comfortable, painless way for people to check out if they decide they are going to do it anyway, instead of doing something violent and subjecting others to the violence of their suicide.

This is a much better way and I think they do spend a lot of time making sure the person is of sound mind and that their decision is not just a whim or the result of a "bad patch".

[Meowmee]

57. So are you saying it is legal if someone

Just decides they don’t want to live anymore? I find that hard to believe. You can just take a bunch of pills yourself etc. it doesn't have to be violent. No need to pay someone thousands of dollars. Going to another country and not telling your family/ friends is suspicious as are the emails imo.

Choosing assisted suicide unless you have a real reason to die is not going to spare anyone who loves you pain. Doing what they did, if indeed that is what really happened, would be equally if not more painful to live with.

[smirkymonkey]

58. Did you look at the website?

They won't let young people check out, but it's kind of vague about people who are a bit older who decide that "life is unbearable". I have heard of people who have been allowed to go through assisted suicide (I think in the Netherlands or Belgium) because they were depressed beyond belief and could not stand to live anymore.

I do think there are places in Europe that allow it, but I am not an expert on this by any means. Check out the FAQ's on the website. The thing is, if you take a bunch of pills yourself and it doesn't work, you could end up as a drooling vegetable, and it could be very unpleasant. They also mention the possibility of vomiting them up.

This service is pretty painless and foolproof. If I had the money and decided that I didn't want any complications, it would make sense to me if it was something that I wanted to do.

[Meowmee]

60. Yes I looked at it

And they seem to say they will not help physically well or depressed people to suicide. They believe you have to have a significantly poor quality of life due to physical illnesses at the least and depression does not count.

In any case I still feel this case is suspicious. I believe people should have access to assisted suicide for valid reasons and have for a long time. We were already considering that for my father at some point if he needed it before the hospital murdered him. He still wanted to live even then after he survived a code, he told me that. The fact that they are charging a huge amount for it in Switzerland anyway also does not sit well with me.

[JanMichael]

65. "valid" in your opinion? That is what I oppose.

Kind of like abortion. Whatever you think is valid?

You also made a flippant comment above about DIY suicide. Like why should someone seek a safer guaranteed method when there is a bottle of pills in the house. Awful.

[Meowmee]

68. Actually your response is pretty awful bye

[smirkymonkey]

59. Also, in this particular instance, I think what these sisters did (assuming there was no foul play)

was very cruel to their family. They should have at least left a note behind explaining everything. I don't agree with what they have done and I think it was very strange. I feel terrible for their brother.

However, I am not against the agencies in Europe that allow people to make use of these services.

[Meowmee]

61. I am not against it either.

Agree what they did was cruel if there was no foul play. The website says they recommend telling your family in advance.

[Coventina]

62. I also feel very bad for their brother.

As ghoulish as it seems, my siblings and I have a suicide pact.

We have a horrible genetic disease in our family that took our mother (after a decade of terminal illness).
We have vowed to each other that if any of us inherited it, we are all going to go out together.

I immediately thought it was a similar situation when I read the OP. However, that was before knowing at least one sibling had been left out. That is terribly tragic. We will be leaving no one behind.

[smirkymonkey]

63. I'm so sorry, Coventina.

I hope it never comes down to that. I do not wish that anyone would have to commit suicide, but I only hope that if one decides that they cannot bear to live life anymore that there is a painless and humane way to exit this world. The medical community really needs to be more compassionate here

I have known people who have decided to leave this world in the most disturbing and violent ways possible for them and their families (guns, jumping off buildings, hanging, throwing themselves in front of trains and pills/alcohol) and I can only imagine the horror for them in their last moments. How lonely it must have been. I would only want them to have the option to have a peaceful way to leave the world if that is what they have finally decided upon.

Some of these people were only acquaintances, but their deaths still haunt me. I can't imagine what their families must feel like.

[Coventina]

72. Well, the GOOD news is, science is progressing rapidly since 1993

when my mother started to exhibit her illness, and her death in 2003.

In 2011, her affliction was finally diagnosed!

Now, with gene therapy, the hope of a cure is on the horizon. So, we may all live to a ripe old age yet!

Thanks for caring!!

[smirkymonkey]

80. I wish you and your family all the best!

[Mariana]

78. There may have been good reasons to not inform the brother.

For example, many Americans are utterly opposed to assisted suicide in all circumstances. Maybe he's one of them. Maybe they knew he would try to lay a guilt-trip on them, or tell them they're going to hell, or physically try to stop them from going, or blab it to everyone. Of course he may not be like that at all, but I'm speculating here. If I ask "why would they not tell him?" that immediately comes to mind as a possible reason.

[JanMichael]

66. There are plenty of families that do not like each other.

I'm sure even if there was no contact or hostility with the brother he can easily say everything was cool. I have known plenty of people that would do that

I love how this story is bringing out the judgementalists.

[Effete Snob]

81. Yep

Also missing from the article - to whom did they leave their property?

[artemisia1]

70. Getting "fed up" with life is generally the result of continual bad experience. As to "not finding

it said", that, imho, speaks more to an absence of empathy and humanity on your part than anything else.

[JanMichael]

71. You are not showing any empathy for the sisters. Big woop.

Bye

[artemisia1]

74. Welcome to my ignore list. /nt

[Thtwudbeme]

76. I "got" what he was saying- basically it feels like many on this thread are judging the sisters

If two rational, healthy adults make that choice- particularly in a more "sterile" or "medical" environment...who are we to say their actions are "sad?"

Interesting comparison to the knee jerk right to lifers; do they not follow the same argument? They are "opposed" to abortion, therefore it is all "bad?"

We'll never know the inner workings of this family- especially the siblings relationships with the brother. Does he "have a right to know?" I don't know. Hard to say.

[Mariana]

79. "Does he have a right to know?"

He knows what happened. What he doesn't know is why. If they chose not to tell him why, then I think their privacy should be respected even though they are dead. It may be that one or both of them weren't as healthy as they appeared to be. There are plenty of awful medical conditions that come on with symptoms that are not obvious to others.

FTR, I wouldn't tell my brother a damn thing, if I were in the position of considering assisted suicide as an option.

[Effete Snob]

82. He may also have a financial interest

Did they leave their stuff to someone else? That could tell us a lot about the brother’s motivation here.