General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsRs are getting ashamed/embarrassed by truthful facts about their side.
Last edited Sat Mar 26, 2022, 12:39 PM - Edit history (1)
Visited my usual Friday R group at the VFW last night, when I sat down with them they were discussing the war
between Russia/Ukraine. So I asked about chemical/biological weapons being used, and before I knew it everyone
at the table was saying UKR had none and Russia was getting ready to use them or already had.
So then I asked "If all thats true......why the hell was tucker carlson saying last night that Hunter Biden was
financing some biolab in Ukraine?"
Went from lively conversation to dead silence with everyone looking down at the table, not at each other to see who
was going to rebuke me. Evidently they had all seen tucker's remarks and now just hung their heads in
shame or embarrassment.
I hadn't thought about it at the time but this was basically the same reaction I got shortly after Jan 6th when they
were talking about the insurrectionists when I said "Lock up all those #*@%#*^# Antifa people" No one came to
their defense but looked at me in silence like "you know they were republican".
So going into the midterms we need to make Rs ashamed/embarrassed of their side whenever we can for voting for Rs.
Need to convince them the only way to save their party is to vote them all out of office so they change their ways.
On edit, added
When talking with Rs (I'm surrounded by them) from my experience, never say anything negative about IQ4.5,
it'll lead to an argument you don't need. Best not to even mention his name even though he deserves a lot of
criticism, now that might change after the Jan 6th Committee indicts him, until then be careful he's still their
Lord & hero.
LetMyPeopleVote
(143,652 posts)Most TFG supporters are too stupid to feel shame
stopdiggin
(11,037 posts)(of a table full of eyes cast down - in shame) Now whether they stay that way ... If past is precedent - probably not.
certainot
(9,090 posts)their lies, alternate realities, crimes, and fascism - and lead the rest of rw media in same.
that unified voice now rots like his dead ass, like trumpism and the kremlins influence on rw radio and fox
C Moon
(12,180 posts)DENVERPOPS
(8,640 posts)because to admit Trump and Republicans are stupid, they would have to admit that the people who voted for all of them were indeed stupid also. That being them, I don't expect them to ever quit backing the shit they have been behind for years......
soldierant
(6,598 posts)some if not all of this group are veterans. That does not make them politically savvy by any means ... but it does mean they have seen some things that R's with no military connection have not. And that means that sometimes - not always - they will be able to recognize truth when they see it.
There may also be a factor of personality here. I suspect they know that if they try to push back OP could take them to pieces. That he chooses not to is excellent strategy as well as excellent manners.
bucolic_frolic
(42,478 posts)A wide concept that fits more than a few GQP situations - insurrectionists, traitors, pardons, vote mongers
The Magistrate
(95,237 posts)Certainly the party's politicians and intellectuals are beyond shame, but many who follow them are not. They've signed on, in fact, because they feel shame. The shamelessness of the leadership is a balm against feelings of shame brought on by knowledge their attitudes do not meet near-universal approval, and by awareness of the various individual ways each of them knows they have fallen short as human beings.
yardwork
(61,331 posts)Meadowoak
(5,492 posts)gab13by13
(20,782 posts)stillspkg
(93 posts)Maggot
Meadowoak
(5,492 posts)Tommymac
(7,263 posts)actual real maggots have an important function on earth.....do not conflate MAGAts and maggots, it's not fair to maggots
Pantagruel
(2,580 posts)Their new motto should be "Save the GOP, vote for Democrats" ?
True Blue American
(17,968 posts)Are saying that!
Mariana
(14,830 posts)True Blue American
(17,968 posts)Many more are thinking it, but do not say. IsnZs Trump support down to 33% now? I doubt it is really that high.
gab13by13
(20,782 posts)and none of them would react that way in my town.
stopdiggin
(11,037 posts)Last edited Sat Mar 26, 2022, 10:22 PM - Edit history (1)
The Putin loving, Putin apologist thing has always made the MAGA crowd kind of uneasy. (they basically tried to pretend that it wasn't there all through 45) And with the brutal invasion of Ukraine - they're back stepping as fast as they can.
I still hear a small amount of whataboutism, two-sides-ism (no doubt gleaned from the usual sources) - but it is basically offered up with a helping of diffidence and placation - rather than the full throttle roar that they have been wont to present all their other opinion.)
Putin is an evil piece of sh*t .... and they're fully aware of it.
speak easy
(9,072 posts)that Russian tanks rolling into town is not a good thing.
sop
(9,846 posts)"What used to be about ideology is now about loyalty. The party no longer has orthodoxy, so now its, Youre not loyal! - Mike Madrid, founder of the Lincoln Project, speaking about the current GOP.
jcgoldie
(11,566 posts)I frequently have similar conversations at the local elevator and the hay auction.
PortTack
(32,491 posts)HUAJIAO
(2,362 posts)their defense but looked at me in silence like "you know they were republican"."
But antifa are the good guys. ?? The anti-fascists...
Maybe I misunderstood.
stopdiggin
(11,037 posts)outing the (totally ridiculous) claim floating around at the time that there was a 'false flag' antifa element (or perhaps engineering) behind the Capital riot. It was a ludicrous invention - that even the dumb asses couldn't quite swallow. And thus the sarcasm directed at a crowd of Trump loyalists.
----- -----
HUAJIAO
(2,362 posts)leftieNanner
(14,966 posts)as sarcasm. Hopefully to elicit a response.
My take anyway.
KS Toronado
(16,715 posts)I just thought it was my ornery side digging at Rs, but yes it was sarcasm.
KS Toronado
(16,715 posts)Rs promoted the idea that the insurrectionists were not law abiding rump supporters,
but Antifa dressing up as Rs to make Rs look bad. More projection from Rs.
Hope that helps.
HUAJIAO
(2,362 posts)Rebl2
(13,236 posts)still vote republicon.
Golden Raisin
(4,593 posts)Random Boomer
(4,156 posts)Even when they're self-aware enough to feel shame or embarrassment, in the privacy of the voting booth, they still vote Republican.
Will not ever matter one smidge.
calimary
(80,521 posts)And you recognize and acknowledge that. And you make amends. I think thats the basis of the 12-step program.
We dont see that here.
Jetheels
(991 posts)I dont think shame is even in their wheelhouse.
Regardless, Ds dont any messaging apparatus.
Maybe a clever tweet here and there from Bette Midler and a couple other actors, and The Lincoln Project. But I doubt any of that reaches much beyond the choir.
DownriverDem
(6,187 posts)money which our side doesn't have. Rich repubs have been financiing their media of lies for decades.
Jetheels
(991 posts)quakerboy
(13,893 posts)LakeArenal
(28,673 posts)No mention of Putin. My local Rs are all about not believing in marriage equality, gender orientation and other things they dont believe in.
A transsexual moved here recently. He doesnt advertise. A Puke sat right next to him spouting about how he doesnt believe in that stuff.
DownriverDem
(6,187 posts)to get the repubs (not trumpers) to see their side clearly? They have voted repub for decades. If only they saw clearly how close we are to losing our country to the authoritative view. I have no idea how we can get them to wake up. They claim to be conservative, but are blind to what is actually going on.
Azathoth
(4,602 posts)The embarrassment they feel is the same they would feel if their favorite football team had a bad season -- suddenly they don't want to talk about football, but that doesn't mean they'll stop supporting the team.
KS Toronado
(16,715 posts)PatrickforB
(14,479 posts)Again, on a strictly personal note, there have been several times in my own life where events have forced me to a realization of how wrong I had been. I have heard this kind of thing be called an 'epiphany,' and so suppose I can call it that since the word is defined as a usually sudden manifestation or perception of the essential nature or meaning of something, or an intuitive grasp of reality, where different pieces of the puzzle fall into place and suddenly you realize the enormity of something.
In the way back when, I was in my twenties during the 1980s, and was a 'Reagan Republican.' I was this because my grandma Max was, and shared screed after screed with me - long tracts in small font designed to gin up fear of the old Soviet Union - the 'commies.' This made me a truly obnoxious college student. I can remember being a horrible thorn in the side of the professor teaching a class called Social Change.
He taught the class from a Marxist perspective, which drove me bananas, and forced me to write my semester paper using a Marxist perspective. Of course, I bent over backwards putting qualifying language in it, because I didn't want anyone to think I was a 'commie' for goodness sake!
When I look back on my behavior in that class, I am truly ashamed because I was an awful bully during class discussions, and it was the very first class this professor had taught, and I drew him into a proverbial pissing contest. Horrible experience, I'm sure, for the rest of the students in the class, and all because of me. I suspect I ruined the class for everyone. Sigh.
Later on, as time passed, I learned things. I was exposed to different ideas by people I respected, and darned if I did not keep remembering things people had said in the class referenced above, things the professor had said, things his guest speakers had said. Since I am a curious individual and a voracious reader, I compiled a list of authors I wanted to read, beginning with the Communist Manifesto. You know, the USSR and Maoist China never reflected what Marx actually said. I ended up doing additional massive research in economics - looking at books on money supply and central banking, and on the doctrine of shareholder primacy - what capitalism really means.
And, of course, Noam Chomsky - I found him difficult reading. I liked Howard Zinn much better, and his book, "A People's History of the United States," literally blew me away. I learned about oligarchs, wedges, manufactured consent, and then read Klein and learned about shock and awe capitalism. We saw that applied here by Brownie in the aftermath of Katrina. The Bushies allowed private sector companies to maximize profits at the expense of the people who had lost everything in the hurricane.
Somewhere along the line I had the epiphany and became the fervent Democrat I am now.
I share this painful memory because I am human. I was wrong, and when I felt the full weight of my former zealotry, I was ashamed. Big time.
For this reason, I cannot support the assertion by many that no Republicans have any sense of shame. All human beings have a sense of shame. Oh, I don't hold out any hope for dirt-bags like Hawley, Cruz, little Marco, Bats**t Boebert, Marjorie 'Traitor' Greene, McCarthy, Cotton, Gohmert and the rest. They are useful idiots that are towing the line for the billionaire parasites, the oligarchs that have so corrupted our Republic.
But - I am an economist, and interact regularly with people in both parties - local elected officials, economic developers, chamber executives, businesspeople, postsecondary educators, and leaders in other community based organizations. Some, I suppose, are sociopaths. In fact a couple of them are, for sure. But not all, by a long shot. Most are basically decent, and DO have a sense of shame.
The problem is they get their 'news' from biased sources such as Fox and talk radio, because Reagan killed the Fairness Doctrine way back in 1987, and we have seen the growth of what Rachel Maddow calls the Right Wing Noise Machine. That is truth, and Trumpy took that to a whole new level, and now we have the Kluxers, Nazis, crazy-right Evangelicals and other tin-foil types crawling out from under slimy rocks everywhere.
This is why I harp on forcing changes to corporate charters to get rid of shareholder primacy. On identifying the government's role as providing services where the profit motive is in direct conflict with the interests of the people receiving the service - like healthcare. On why we should consider eliminating the Fed and having the US Government take over central banking. On why we need to beef up voting rights by passing that John Lewis Act. And so on.
Policies affect us, you know. And some of the policies put in place around taxation, courtesy of Reagan and the supply-side people at the Chicago School, have really, really hurt the Republic. They have.
Anyway, I am human. I was wrong. I have a sense of shame. I was ashamed. I changed.
So can nearly every other human being. But it is hard. When you believe something fervently and are confronted with facts to the contrary, it causes massive discomfort.
If we are to save this Republic, we must, it seems, change our minds as a people.
Sorry for the long post. If you have read this far, why, you get a nice gold star!
KS Toronado
(16,715 posts)Yes, long read but parts I can personally identify with.
FakeNoose
(32,202 posts)This is truly amazing, and I love the way you've told this story.
Sometime when you feel up to the task, this would make a wonderful OP.
It's hard to sympathize/empathize with people who don't share your political views. And yet you must do it almost everyday because your job depends on it. Thank you, friend, for opening up like this.
KS Toronado
(16,715 posts)PatrickforB should share this in it's own OP, had thought that myself when reading it.
FoxNewsSucks
(10,374 posts)don't because part of the programming and subconscious propaganda spew blaring forth from Fox "NewZ" / Hate Radio is the message that they don't have to be ashamed. It's a subliminal part, maybe, but the message is there.
On those rare occasions where I have gotten through to an O'Reilly watching type, I have no doubt that whatever good and whatever agreement was reached, it was neutralized within a few days at most by that individual's return to the trough.
I also think the messaging has gotten more effective, because those "rare occasions" have become non-existent with MAGAts.
Alice Kramden
(2,154 posts)I agree people's thinking can be improved with the right input - and the disinformation from media is dragging a lot of good people down, including some of my family
TeamProg
(5,724 posts)it comes to being informed.
""oooh, I'm afraid to learn! ""
F'ing SNOWFLAKES !!
FreepFryer
(7,077 posts)certainot
(9,090 posts)modern 'old world' civilizations are full of sex on the wrong brain and have been built around it - authoritarians just have it worse
the idea is that right handed masturbators had slight advantages in times of conflict (fear, greed suspicion winning over true human nature ) because of associating sex with the left brain hemisphere - so we became 90% right handed.
when the scientific community begins to prove trump putin facism is related to a heritable susceptibility to the effects of right handed masturbation the shame might be more effective
Cozmo
(1,402 posts)And secure a Dem win in 2022
Response to KS Toronado (Original post)
Chin music This message was self-deleted by its author.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,605 posts)aquamarina
(1,865 posts)People are removed. Until they vote them out, nothing is going to change. I am curious- they know the Rs are crazy, do they think the Ds are more crazy? Because thats what I hear. They know their reps are batshit but they think Ds are commies and traitors so they will vote for the lesser of two evils. Thats the messaging that needs to change.
hay rick
(7,495 posts)The original sin of the Trump era was his birtherism. The Republicans all knew it was a lie and they all looked the other way or repeated the lie because it was part of their pledge of spiteful allegiance.
We all have chances to choose our better self or our worse self. A lot of times our worse self is more popular with friends. I have no sympathy and diminished respect for these people.
krkaufman
(13,429 posts)Their shame/silence is transitory; the arrogance and ignorance will rise again.
Skittles
(152,918 posts)THEY HAVEN'T LEARNED A FUCKING THING
orleans
(33,949 posts)krkaufman
(13,429 posts)I'd be tempted to discuss with them Biden's telling Zelenskyy that he'll only see more Javelin anti-tank gear if Zelenskyy is willing to make a public speech denouncing Trump.
KS Toronado
(16,715 posts)The parallels would really stand out, however you know that old saying...."1st liar never has a chance"
On 2nd thought this might work "You think Biden should withhold military aid from UKR until Zelensky gives
Democrats dirt on trump?"
Questions always work better than statements when dealing with Rs. Questions require a person to think
of an answer.
DeeDeeNY
(3,351 posts)the Jan 6 Committee has the power to indict. They can only recommend criminal charges to the Justice Dept. But as Adam Schiff has pointed out in numerous interviews, there is no reason why the Justice Dept cant go ahead at any time to issue subpoenas, start investigations and bring criminal charges, especially since they already have TFG recorded on tape threatening Georgia AG that he needed to find 11,000 votes for him.
KS Toronado
(16,715 posts)the Jan 6 Committee doesn't have the power to indict, I was typing faster than my tiny brain could think.
quakerboy
(13,893 posts)And at the first opportunity to do so will be right back in line to parrot tucker and any other propagandist in the network.
IronLionZion
(45,163 posts)Maybe you found some normal ones, but there are way too many who believe the Tucker/Qanon nonsense that Putin is somehow the good guy.
librechik
(30,659 posts)Truly, just walk away. You can't win a game against a partner who changes the rules at his own whim.
elleng
(129,782 posts)70sEraVet
(3,391 posts)But my post leadership is pretty strict about forbidding divisive political discussions at the meetings.
Wednesday morning coffee and donut Get togethers is another story, but the discussions never seem to get out of hand.
LiberalFighter
(50,343 posts)Roy Rolling
(6,831 posts)Appropriate name. You know how to destroy a narrow path yet leave other things standing only a few feet away. Well done.
KS Toronado
(16,715 posts)FYI, 1970 Oldsmobile product, FWD, 455ci, 400HP, white with tan leather interior & factory mags.
That's a Toronado.
Hotler
(11,325 posts)Mariana
(14,830 posts)and stop watching it. They don't do that because they agree with most of what they hear on those shows.