General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsTo those saying it's up to Russia to decide the President of Russia, I have 5 words.
How do you like it? Your war criminal president has been interfering in our politics for years. President Joe Biden spoke the truth. A guy who purposely kills women and children is not going to be someone the United States works with.
I support Joe Biden and his words.
Walleye
(30,701 posts)AllTooEasy
(1,260 posts)Honesty is essential to romantic relationships, but not in war or diplomacy with enemies.
Every word that a President publicly states is a diplomatic declaration, locally, internationally, or both. Fair - no. Reality - yes. Show your enemy your cards/desires/intentions - heck no!
I support Bidens words, I just support him saying them publicly. I personally hope that Russians throw Putin in an iron madden by tomorrow morning, but I wouldnt say anything near that publicly as POTUS. I would let Putin think that we were friends, gain his trust, and then destroy his life/regime at first chance. Thats diplomacy!
Response to onecaliberal (Original post)
Post removed
onecaliberal
(32,478 posts)I have a bridge for sale. Good lord.
leftstreet
(36,078 posts)They have a system of elected representation similar to many countries
Since 1990, there have been seven elections for the presidency and seven for parliament. In the seven presidential elections, only once, in 1996, has a second round been needed. There have been three presidents, with Boris Yeltsin elected in 1991 and 1996, Vladimir Putin in 2000, 2004, 2012 and 2018 and Dmitry Medvedev in 2008. The Communist candidate (of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union or the Communist Party of the Russian Federation) has finished second in every case: Nikolai Ryzhkov in 1991, Gennady Zyuganov in 1996, 2000 and 2008 and 2011, Nikolay Kharitonov in 2004 and Pavel Grudinin in 2018. Only in 1996 has there been a third candidate who gained more than 10% of the votes in the first round, Alexander Lebed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Russia
Bobstandard
(1,279 posts)The most prominent opposition party leader has been poisoned twice and jailed repeatedly for daring to challenge Putin in Russian electoral politics. The appearance of free elections is not the same as having a freely elected government.
Navalny should be freed.
Joinfortmill
(14,233 posts)erronis
(14,942 posts)Look at Putin's wins: 2000, 2004, 2012, 2018.
Medvedev was put in power by Putin in 2008 to get around the term limits (since rescinded.)
Any serious contenders have been poisoned or thrown in jail.
Please add the section from Wikipedia to your reference library: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Russia#Criticism
You have to be blind (or have other issues) to not understand this.
Ferrets are Cool
(21,059 posts)DENVERPOPS
(8,677 posts)Trump's, and the Republican Parties first move would have been to rescind the 22nd amendment limiting terms of the U.S. President, no different than his mentor has done in Russia......
We were, and are one millimeter away from having a Corporate Fascist Tyranny installed in the U.S..... The Corporate States of America.
Katie Bar the Door. If the Republicans, in the upcoming 2022 "elections", corruptly take the House and Senate majorities, it will be game over. Period.
We desperately need a dem Party leader, and a plan of resistance, because this is truly an all out war..........and our Democracy is at stake forever more............(And, don't tell me that leader can be Biden, he has his hands full in case no-one in the DNC has noticed.....)
Sorry, just stating obvious facts and my personal thinking............
Cheezoholic
(1,967 posts)oldsoftie
(12,410 posts)While they'd try to trash everything I doubt they'd get near that many votes
DENVERPOPS
(8,677 posts)how many times, during the Trump years, I said: They can't do that................
And to a certain extent, during the post Trump years, I said: They can't do that..................
Thank you for describing what would legitimately need to be accomplished. But we are dealing with beyond corrupt sleazy people.
If you told me that Trump, the Republican Senators, and Republican members of the House, were planning on launching a vicious attack on the Capitol, when all of congress was assembled, I would have laughed my butt off.........and said: That is treason or at best sedition, they can't do that............
oldsoftie
(12,410 posts)And now some of them think that Trump & Putin are actually working together in Ukraine to expose the bio weapons labs & of course the child trafficking. Yep, some of them think that. Lost souls & useful idiots.
I_UndergroundPanther
(12,450 posts)If the republicans get the majority..
Lonestarblue
(9,874 posts)Elections in Russia are corrupt.
onecaliberal
(32,478 posts)Nothing!
leftstreet
(36,078 posts)onecaliberal
(32,478 posts)leftstreet
(36,078 posts)I've been here like almost 25 yrs or something and I don't think anyone's ever said that to me
LOL
onecaliberal
(32,478 posts)ShazzieB
(15,952 posts)Kind of surprising that anyone posting here wouldn't know that.
11 Bravo
(23,922 posts)And in my tenure here I have never posited that Russia has free and fair elections.
ProfessorGAC
(64,413 posts)You were on DU 4 years before it existed? Good trick.
leftstreet
(36,078 posts)Should have said almost 20
TheProle
(2,094 posts)But I will offer it anyway.
A lot of DUers are doubling down on something that Bidens administration is rightfully walking back, but it has nothing to do with any ignorance on your part about Russias sketchy relationship with democracy and everything to do with a populace so accustomed to hot takes and lack of nuance that they have institutionally forgotten the weight that absolutely every word of a world leader carries.
The fact that we can be rhetorically reckless as masked internet users doesnt mean that Biden should be.
lees1975
(3,718 posts)They're explaining the context. The President wasn't calling for regime change, he was calling for the kind of action that's already being taken, to prevent Putin from being allowed to bombard Ukraine and make illegal war.
I'm glad he said what he did.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)That poster has been here quite a bit longer than you have.
Anyone who resorts to personal attacks is probably looking for a leg to stand on.
Mr.Bill
(24,103 posts)working very hard to make it the same here.
onecaliberal
(32,478 posts)demigoddess
(6,640 posts)ymetca
(1,182 posts)But I question A LOT just how free and fair they are, especially since the person who gets the most votes doesn't always win, strangely.
Thankfully, no one has been poisoned yet, as far as I know.
But I can think of a couple who got assassinated, so...
AZLD4Candidate
(5,558 posts)Elessar Zappa
(13,649 posts)leftstreet
(36,078 posts)or free or fair or whatever
I said they have elected representation
ShazzieB
(15,952 posts)Describing Russia's elections without acknowledging the obvious reality that the ones conducted since Putin's been in office have been the opposite of free, fair, or legitimate is disingenuous, to say the least.
PatrickforB
(14,514 posts)It wasn't a gaffe. Biden was signaling to Russia that we and the rest of the allies will be happy to work with Russia if a group in Russia removes Putin from office. Basically, between the lines, Biden is saying that we realize this is Putin's gig, and if Putin is removed and the invasion forces withdrawn, the west may not continue punishing Russia with sanctions.
Trumpy never understood this concept. People actually listen to what the POTUS says - every little utterance - and those utterances are designed purposely to help the hearers understand what we want, and hopefully make decisions accordingly.
Yeah, Trump and his criminal family very nearly squandered that worldwide clout we have, but fortunately Biden is an actual presidential president, if you get my meaning. He knows what he is doing, how to do it, and why to do it. Remember that Biden has been around the block many times with stuff like this, and that he has gotten rid of the idiots Trump had in there, and surrounded himself with actual experts - fine minds to help him govern.
We are in good hands, I think.
Of course, Fox won't be reporting it that way, nor will the hate-talk radio outlets. They all portray Biden as a drooling wreck. And the corporate-owned post-Fairness-Doctrine media does not help matters. They just publishes a poll that purports to tell us that Biden's approval has sunk to a new low, but consider they interviewed 1,000 people to produce this poll. 1,000 people in a country 330 million people. This new poll lacks a certain, shall we say, credibility...and yet it is getting national play.
Joinfortmill
(14,233 posts)CaptainTruth
(6,546 posts)I would prefer to deal in reality, instead of a fantasy that will only lead to more war & innocent deaths.
I feel like those who consider it a gaffe are not seeing the bigger picture.
If Putin is to be removed from power it will be done by the powerful people around him, his inner circle, it will be a coup, supported by the Russian people because they will be tired of what he's doing to Russia & to their lives.
Where do we think all these sanctions are leading? What is their ultimate purpose? It seems pretty obvious to me, the sanctions are to erode support for Putin in Russia, to push those around him & his people to turn against him & remove him from power.
To all those rich & powerful folks surrounding Putin who are beginning to think that Putin has become more of a liability than an asset & may be thinking about taking action against him, Biden is creating a permission structure for that line of thinking, & signaling how the world would react if they did move against Putin.
IMHO it's exactly what he should be doing if we want this all to end with the best possible outcome.
LudwigPastorius
(8,943 posts)Giving them the choice; remove Putin from power, or face the hunger and cold that comes with the destruction of their economy by the rest of the world.
He didn't say, "We (U.S./NATO) cannot allow this man to remain in power".
...and, just because a country has elections, doesn't make it a democracy.
https://theconversation.com/russias-rigged-elections-look-nothing-like-the-us-election-they-have-immediate-unquestioned-results-there-149710
tman
(983 posts)And could actually serve to strengthen Putin.
Which is probably why US officials are walking it back.
stopdiggin
(11,089 posts)regardless of how many apologists come along in 'support.'
It was a misstep. One that was clearly recognized.
(Joe Biden has done a thousand things right. This wasn't one of them.)
----- -----
Tommymac
(7,263 posts)stopdiggin
(11,089 posts)and you make good points - and yet still, we do disagree.
For this reason. It has been an agreed diplomatic norm that you do not advocate for regime change. (or assassinate foreign leaders) You know this, I know this, and Joe Biden knows this. And I do not think it is beneficial now (or at really any point) to be blundering about blasting through norms and convention on the diplomatic stage. Not only unwise, but also a dangerous hubris.
(We had a guy that did a lot of that. Frankly, it was terrifying! For us, our allies, and most of the rest of the world!)
What Biden has been so extraordinarily good at - is bringing things together, providing a strong center, and reestablishing a sense of 'world order.' (thank god!) This was out of step with that previous deftness, steady hand and solid statesmanship that won us so much - and at the same time threatens the absolute validity of that approach. And for that reason - I see this as quite clearly a misstep. It might play well to the crowd - but in a larger context - let's, please, get back to the steady hand! Diplomacy may not be sexy - but it's indispensable in negotiating a dangerous world - and, most importantly, so far it's working!
----- -----
Farmer-Rick
(10,072 posts)Biden in no way resembles that idiot.
I'm all for the truth behind Biden's statement and TFG never knew or spoke the truth. He spoke his selfish and distorted feeling (mostly evil) as if they were the truth for everyone. TFG has no grasp on what reality and the truth are.
So no there is no resemblance between the 2 men's behavior. Sorry but it just doesn't equate.
ShazzieB
(15,952 posts)stopdiggin
(11,089 posts)Further, I'd like to keep it that way. This 'misstep' was outside the norm for Biden. Trump delighted in trashing norms.
The fact that I use an example to contrast and compare - does not, in my mind at least, create any sort of equivalence. I'm sorry if it was misconstrued as such.
Joinfortmill
(14,233 posts)stopdiggin
(11,089 posts)which is why he (and half the rest of the free world) walked it back.
wrong place and time. wrong speaker. perfectly acceptable sentiment.
----- -----
Tommymac
(7,263 posts)Old courtroom trick. Lawyers say it, judge squashes it, but jury still hears it- points scored.
He had his officials ready to walk it back. That was one hell of a quick and coordinated response. The whole thing was planned IMO.
A win because he ridiculed Putin on the World Stage - and Putin is probably binge eating KFC and turning orange right now.
A win in the court of Public Opinion.
A win because President Biden rubs his detractors faces in it twice.
A win for Free Speech and Democracy.
A win for The People of the World
A win for President Biden.
oldsoftie
(12,410 posts)Crunchy Frog
(26,548 posts)SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)Trdy a free fucking election!
RandomNumbers
(17,537 posts)Even given that, I don't see how Biden's statement is false.
For Gods sake, this man cannot remain in power.
Seems correct to me. It seems to me either
* a strategic assessment that Putin's course of action will result in Putin being removed from power;
or
* an appeal to Russians to do something about their war criminal president who is hurting their own country by his actions.
Or as the WH is trying to spin it I guess, an expression of personal revulsion. Personally I think they should have stuck with one or both of my interpretations.
Ziggysmom
(3,374 posts)the faces of refugees in Poland. It would be shocking to see this all firsthand. I can't imagine the nightmares. He seemed to be pleading to Russia to stop this insanity? IMHO
Joinfortmill
(14,233 posts)Traildogbob
(8,567 posts)Have Russian citizens had any say in Putin or not? 98 percent of the vote last time, really? We are on a Run away train straight to that exact control over trump or not, or SNY criminal GQP in power.
Iggo
(47,486 posts)Got it in two.
GoCubsGo
(32,061 posts)He is actively trying to assassinate another country's leader. And, let's not overlook what he did to Syria, either. Anyone who disagrees with what Biden said needs to STFU. Joe is 100% correct. Russia needs to get rid of this monster.
onecaliberal
(32,478 posts)L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)onecaliberal
(32,478 posts)stopdiggin
(11,089 posts)-- -- yee gods.
Joinfortmill
(14,233 posts)txwhitedove
(3,922 posts)Not specific, not violent, but one much like a young mother about an abusive bully drug addicted husband who fooled family, employers, church, doctors... A plea that this cannot stand and something, somehow, must change.
iemanja
(53,001 posts)It's much more serious then. I do think it was a mistake by Biden, since he said afterward he didn't mean to suggest regime change.
txwhitedove
(3,922 posts)iemanja
(53,001 posts)He was clear afterward. So I'm not sure what you're defending.
stopdiggin
(11,089 posts)to death, aren't we? Even though Biden himself (and everybody else) walked it back afterwards. But, by golly - "He was NOT wrong! No matter WHAT they say!"
----- -- -----
Joinfortmill
(14,233 posts)stopdiggin
(11,089 posts)really have no authorization - no connection to the president's positions? They just made up this stuff all on their own? Sigh.
As you know, and as youve heard us say repeatedly, we do not have a strategy of regime change in Russia or anywhere else, for that matter. In this case, as in any case, its up to the people of the country in question. Its up to the Russian people, he added.
Blinkens comments come one day after Biden stunned many including those in his own administration with his speech on the invasion of Ukraine on Saturday at the Royal Castle in Warsaw, Poland.
Joinfortmill
(14,233 posts)Putin does need to go. I don't see how that can be in dispute. Just my opinion.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)And everyone who works there?
Treefrog
(4,170 posts)Tarc
(10,472 posts)The generals and the oligarchs will have to decide when too much of their bottom line has suffered.
This only ends with a coup.
RandomNumbers
(17,537 posts)Russian people.
Normally I wouldn't even hint at support for a coup, if there was any resemblance to democracy there. Even here with TFG, the proper course was to gut it out and try to work through channels. But Putin is insane and Russia is not democratic. So, similar to Hitler, it seems reasonable to wish him gone by any means available.
I'm sorta hoping for a heart attack or stroke though. Sure there are other nasticrats to step into his shoes, but I doubt the next one would be as far off the rails. And hopefully would be flat out weak.
txwhitedove
(3,922 posts)They actually survive, make their way across top of Finland and into Russia, down to Moscow or wherever needed and uh help....
TeamProg
(5,787 posts)Botany
(70,288 posts)A New Report Adds Evidence That Trump Was a Russian Asset
He helped Putin manipulate the U.S. election in 2020, as he did in 2016.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/03/trump-russian-asset-election-intelligence-community-report.html?msclkid=ed2658a7aba511ec9fed607eaf6a23ce
Response to Botany (Reply #42)
Chin music This message was self-deleted by its author.
Botany
(70,288 posts)... been at war with America for years and that Trump was a knowing Russian asset. I think if we
get to see the unredacted Mueller Report it will confirm the same information.
Response to Botany (Reply #64)
Chin music This message was self-deleted by its author.
onecaliberal
(32,478 posts)evolves
(5,393 posts)Last edited Sun Mar 27, 2022, 04:05 PM - Edit history (1)
that the only reason they are complaining is because they have all been on the Russian gravy train for too long. They dont want the flow of cash to stop, so they are doing whatever they can to ensure that it doesnt. They dont give one rats ass that it is leading to the destruction of our democracy.
TomWilm
(1,832 posts)... since close cooperation with dictators such as the ones of Bahrain, Pakistan, Qatar, Turkey, UAE and Saudi Arabia, further with even stranger allies in Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. Very trusted fellas, most are greeted with access to buying the most advanced arms of the US, and are using them to purposely kill women and children.
These bastards has always been among the ones the United States has found ways to work with, which the rest of the world are very much aware of and wondering about. The US collaboration with these weird partners and more, is tainting the fine sentiments of Joe Biden's fight for democracy.
randr
(12,408 posts)Let them wallow in their own filth
Duppers
(28,094 posts)Just saying. TFG had his backing.
Has Russia had any honest elections?
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)No thanks.
Joinfortmill
(14,233 posts)lame54
(35,130 posts)To give Putin 100% approval
jcgoldie
(11,582 posts)sneaky!
struggle4progress
(118,032 posts)Response to onecaliberal (Original post)
Chin music This message was self-deleted by its author.
True Blue American
(17,972 posts)I also think the idiot in the Whitehouse needs to be fired. Biden is right and I do not care what he says about Putin. The scared pantless fools need to shut up. They need to crack down on whoever is contradicting him.
Many Russians feel like Biden does.
secondwind
(16,903 posts)And even if they think there is something wrong, they are extremely afraid of speaking out, for fear of retribution.
It's a very said life they live........
DallasNE
(7,392 posts)The Russian people need to elect who replaces Putin and the Parliament in free and fair elections conducted under the auspices of the UN.
Cha
(295,899 posts)Lucky Luciano
(11,242 posts)Saudis Arabia for one.
We definitely dont work with killers of white women and children though. Thats a bridge too far. (Im all in for UKR and Putin definitely needs to go though to be clear).
onecaliberal
(32,478 posts)The Jungle 1
(4,552 posts)maveric
(16,445 posts)Ford_Prefect
(7,817 posts)former9thward
(31,801 posts)Iran is classified bu the U.S. as a state sponsor of terrorism and we are negotiating with them.
Ford_Prefect
(7,817 posts)or narrow and selective views of history. I do think it is the one time when the remark bears repeating.
Iran is one among a number of other nations with ties to terror with whom we've done business when it suited our goals. Were I to list them all it would offend too many dearly cherished illusions. It could also result in banishment from DU according to one wag I know.
In this case though we have an example of the kind of extreme which outclasses others. We have one man who chose to murder thousands of citizens in another country which had not threatened his own. A man who insists on having things his won way regardless of the visible facts. Idi Amin was such a man.
applegrove
(118,010 posts)by Ukraine.
calimary
(80,693 posts)Id guess most of the rest of the world has either agreed or has actually said the same thing.
samnsara
(17,570 posts)..remember when everyone clutched their pearls when he said russia was gonna invade ukraine? Joes light years ahead of all of them...