Ukraine is rich. Russia is poor. (Interesting twitter thread):

[Tomconroy]

Link to tweet

[Cracklin Charlie]

1. Putin went there to steal their treasury.

He has already stolen his dry.

[sanatanadharma]

2. How ya gonna keep them deep in the steppes...

... after they've seen Kyiv.

[jpak]

3. LOL!!122

Good one

[Silent3]

4. Ukraine WAS rich

At least relative to Russia. Now, even after the fighting stops, there will be an upended economy and trillions of dollars worth of damage. And probably no way to make Putin and Russia pay up for the enormous damage they've wrought.

[former9thward]

5. More nonsense from twitter.

I have traveled in Russia several times. Their subway systems are far superior to any in the U.S. including NY, DC, Chicago or San Francisco. In war the BS gets thrown around pretty thick.

[SunSeeker]

7. Have you traveled in Ukraine? They have nice subways too.

But the main point of the thread is that Ukraine has higher wages than Russia, as Sergej Sumlenny's Twitter thread documented, and that outside of Moscow and St. Petersburg, Russia is underdeveloped compared to Ukraine.

Did you even read the thread?

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[former9thward]

11. Yes, once

A very nice country but that is not the point. The OP describes Russia as a country without "asphalt". I can show you pictures of dirt roads in the U.S. all over the place including some in major cities. What the hell does that prove?

[SunSeeker]

15. As you admit, Ukraine is "a very nice country." You can't say the same for Russia.

Yes, we have dirt roads in rural areas, but we don't have dirt roads that serve as major thoroughfares and highways, the way Russia does.

That Twitter thread proves how impoverished Russia is, thanks to Putin and his oligarchs, who have stolen from the people rather than investing in the country.

[SunSeeker]

16. As you admit, Ukraine is "a very nice country." You can't say the same for Russia.

Yes, we have dirt roads in rural areas, but we don't have dirt roads that serve as major thoroughfares and highways, the way Russia does.

Link to tweet

That Twitter thread proves how impoverished Russia is, thanks to Putin and his oligarchs, who have stolen from the people rather than investing in the country.

[former9thward]

19. No Russia does not have dirt roads that serve as major highways.

That is simply not true. If you want to believe twitter people with agendas go ahead.

[SunSeeker]

65. Have you got a different picture of the Federal Highway in the St. Petersburg region?

[bluewater]

74. M10 highway (Russia)

The M10 "Russia" (Russian: "Россия&quot is a federal highway in Russia connecting the country's two largest cities, Moscow and Saint Petersburg. Other than in the vicinity of Moscow and Saint Petersburg, the M10 is basically a two-lane highway (one lane for each direction), with an occasional third centre lane to allow overtaking or for left-turning traffic at intersections.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M10_highway_(Russia)

This doesn't quite seem like a dirt road, but I notice it's usually two lane with the occasional center lane, compared to our Interstate Highway system in the US which is 4 lanes.

But then, no one here is disputing that we, the US , are by far a richer nation than Russia.

[SunSeeker]

79. You are referring to the connection between Moscow and St. Petersburg, Russia's two richest cities.

The picture in the Tweet was of a Federal Highway going out to the rest of the country, the part of the country not frequented by the oligarchs of Moscow and St. Petersburg.

[bluewater]

83. What's the geo-location of that picture? We should explore that.

You do have a geo-location we could check, right?

[Beastly Boy]

12. Are you by any chance referring to the Smolensk subway or the Yakutsk subway?

They ain't got one.

Where outside of Moscow and St Petersburg have you seen a subway anyway?

On edit: Oh yeah, forgot about Novosibirsk. Third busiest subway system in Russia, with one line and thirteen stations.

[former9thward]

14. For starters:

Kazan, Nizhny Novgorod, Novosibirsk, Samara, Volgograd, and Yekaterinburg. I have not been there in many years so I don't know if other cities have them now. I could give you a list of dozens of major cities in the U.S. which don't have any. What does that prove?

[SunSeeker]

20. The Twitter thread was not about subways. It was about pay, hospitals and roads.

You didn't read the thread, did you? The thread discussed what life looks for the average Russian outside of Moscow and St. Petersburg.


As an American tourist traveling in Russia "many years ago," I doubt you saw a lot of the rest of Russia, unless you have family there. Are you Russian?

[former9thward]

21. I guess you didn't read the thread.

I was giving a specific answer to a specific question by a poster. Sorry if discussion bothers you.

[SunSeeker]

22. I did read the thread.

It is you who appears bothered by discussion, since that is all I'm doing.

[Beastly Boy]

27. My bad. With one line and an averaage of less than 15 stations each, they are easy to overlook.

And the oldest of them was built in 1982, so you may have seen none of them. Sure doesn't sound like Russian subway systems outside Moscow and St Petersburg can be counted among world's best.

That's for starters. Anything to add to it? No?

BTW, Ukraine, 28 times smaller than Russia, has 4 subway systems to Russia's nine. So in terms of subway infrastructures, Russia is about 13 times poorer than Ukraine.

[former9thward]

64. How many systems does the richest country in the world have?

[SunSeeker]

66. The US famously sucks at public transport. What's your point? nt

[Beastly Boy]

91. No clue.

But we are comparing apples to apples, not apples to fruit salad.

[bluewater]

17. and absolute nonsense it is.

15 poorest countries in Europe with the lowest GDP per capita

GDP (Gross Domestic Product) per capita reflects the average wealth of each resident in a given country. It is obtained by dividing the country's gross domestic product, adjusted by inflation, by the total population. Here is a ranking of European countries by wealth.

1. Kosovo - GDP per capita $10,766
2. Moldova - GDP per capita $12,325
3. Ukraine - GDP per capita $12,377
...
11. Russia - GDP per capita $26,456

https://www.msn.com/en-xl/africa/other/15-poorest-countries-in-europe-with-the-lowest-gdp-in-2021/ar-AAPplFU

so much for twitter as a reliable news source...

[SunSeeker]

29. As Sergej Sumlenny notes in his Twitter thread, Russia income stats are distorted.

Link to tweet

The typical Ukrainian makes better money than the typical Russian not working in the oil industry.

[bluewater]

35. And yet the World Bank seems to disagree with Sergej...

go figure.

WORLD BANK: GDP per capita

Ukraine 2020 $3,724.9

Russian Federation 2020 $10,126.7

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD

[SunSeeker]

37. That's GDP per capita, not income. Russia's GDP is basically oil, which enriches oligarchs.

The average Russian is not enriched by Russian oil exports. That money goes to Putin and his oligarchs.

Why is that so hard for you to understand?

[bluewater]

45. The United Nations Development Programme's Human Development Index disagrees with you.

Trying to justify unverified twitter nonsense while ignoring respected bodies like the World Bank and The United Nations Development Programme just isn't flying.

Here is the data from the well documented and well respected United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) Human Development Index :

The United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) compiles the Human Development Index (HDI) of 189 countries in the annual Human Development Report. The index considers the health, education and income in a given country to provide a measure of human development which is comparable between countries and over time.[1][2]

52 Increase (1) Russia 0.824 Increase 0.60%

74 Decrease (1) Ukraine 0.779 Increase 0.35%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#

And here is data from the UN where they take into account income inequality:

This is a list of countries by inequality-adjusted human development index (IHDI), as published by the UNDP in its 2019 Human Development Report. According to the 2016 Report, "The IHDI can be interpreted as the level of human development when inequality is accounted for," whereas the Human Development Index itself, from which the IHDI is derived, is "an index of potential human development (or the maximum IHDI that could be achieved if there were no inequality)."[1][2]

42 Russia 0.740 0.824 10.2 Increase 0.049

45 Ukraine 0.728 0.779 6.4 Increase 0.035

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequality-adjusted_Human_Development_Index

[Beastly Boy]

42. A sobering statistic. Still, it doesn't invalidate the OP or the tweet thread it refers to.

GDP is about averages, which includes measures that do not necessarily reflect cost of living or quality of life (as in the value of extracted natural resources, for instance). The thread obviously reflects the latter, sometimes anecdotally and sometimes statistically. I have no reason do doubt that many Russian soldiers are impressed with what they see in Ukraine. They are comparing their quality of life in Russia ton that they see in Ukraine, not the GDP numbers. Nor do I have reason to doubt Ukraine's superior average wages. They reflect just one part of GDP.

[bluewater]

46. But The United Nations Development Programme 's Human Development Index does

The United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) compiles the Human Development Index (HDI) of 189 countries in the annual Human Development Report. The index considers the health, education and income in a given country to provide a measure of human development which is comparable between countries and over time.[1][2]

52 Increase (1) Russia 0.824 Increase 0.60%

74 Decrease (1) Ukraine 0.779 Increase 0.35%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#

And here is data from the UN where they take into account income inequality:

This is a list of countries by inequality-adjusted human development index (IHDI), as published by the UNDP in its 2019 Human Development Report. According to the 2016 Report, "The IHDI can be interpreted as the level of human development when inequality is accounted for," whereas the Human Development Index itself, from which the IHDI is derived, is "an index of potential human development (or the maximum IHDI that could be achieved if there were no inequality)."[1][2]

42 Russia 0.740 0.824 10.2 Increase 0.049

45 Ukraine 0.728 0.779 6.4 Increase 0.035

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequality-adjusted_Human_Development_Index

Boom, there it is, the UN says that adjusted for income inequality, Russia has a better Human Development Index than Ukraine.

[Beastly Boy]

57. It does not. The data you are citing is quite outdated.

It's from 2019, the height of corruption in Ukraine. Zelensky was elected in 2019 to end it, and since then considerable progress has been made. This is the main reason Putin attacked Ukraine at this time. He wants its ruling class to remain corrupt and corruptible.

And, according to your source, the human development index in Ukraine is virtually identical to that of Russia. If that's a boom, I don't know what a whimper sounds like.

[bluewater]

63. The UN HDI data was from 2020 and the IDHI data from 2019. Do you have more recent data?

Honestly, if you do, please share it.

[Beastly Boy]

90. I don't have more recent data. Neither do you.

But the pre-Zelensky numbers are clearly outdated.

[bluewater]

92. Hey, it's time to thank you for the discussion.

Since more recent data is not available to us, I prefer not to try and hold a discussion based on non-empirical assertions.

Best regards,

[Beastly Boy]

93. Your empirical assertions do not negate anything in the OP, and that's the entirety of my response.

I just don't see the data you provided supporting any objections to the OP. And since you prefer to argue the data regardless of context, let's wait for a thread that is more data driven.

Cheers!

[ProfessorGAC]

67. Not Sure Where They Got Those Numbers

Per the World Bank, Russia has a per capita GDP of $10,226.72.
Now, their numbers agree with your point, because they show Ukraine at $3,726.93. So Russia's per capita GDP is far higher.
Russia has a GDP of $1.483 trillion and around 140 million people. Ukraine has a GDP of just under $156 billion, with around 41.5 million people.
The point being made about the comparison is valid, but that citation has some weird numbers. Neither country has a GDP/PC anywhere near what that MSN article suggests.

[Dorian Gray]

39. We you in the subway

in any city other than Moscow or St. Petersburg? The original thread said that those two cities are where all the wealth is concentrated.

NYC city subways are a disaster, and the St. Petersburg subways are way more beautiful. But that also doesn't mean that there is more wealth concentrated in St. Petersburg than NYC.

[haele]

6. Many of the conscripts came from a farming or logging village in BF Russia

Where the nearest major regional city was over 500 miles away and the nearest town where their school was and that controlled the infrastructure going out to their village was almost 20 miles away.
They aren't going to pull conscripts from the middle class areas around the big cities. They're going to go to the poorer small towns in the hills or out on the steppes.
Russia is huge. And a significant number it's citizenry is spread out working in some sort of natural resource extraction sector, not living in the big, cosmopolitan cities.
Some of these conscripts may have spent all their lives in a poor village with skid/cobbled roads and cell phone service that only got to them 10 years ago (for industry employment or governmental purposes).

Also remember that in most countries, broadband and cell service are government controlled/provided services.

Haele

[obamanut2012]

23. I grew up in an extremely rural area of the US

All of our roads were sealed except jeep/logging roads, our hospitals couldn't handle certain things, of course, but they were very clean, very nicely appointed, and I had two eye operations there as a child. Even in the early 70s they had a helipad for transport. We had decent public libraries, etc.

So, a very similar area.

[Beastly Boy]

9. This is what Putin fears more than NATO

A prosperous Ukraine on his border. A former satellite whose standard of living is the envy of the Russian people. It should have been clear to Putin that no matter how much destruction he brings to Ukraine, its people will eventually prosper again. It should have been clear that, by making Ukraine the centerpiece of his imperial delusions, he only amplifies the contrast between the two countries, and exposes the reason why Ukrainians will resist all his attempts to take it over.

The average Russians, including Putin's cheerleaders, are watching and taking notes. It is now inevitable that whatever the outcome of the war will be, Ukraine will eventually regain its independence and prosperity. And I predict the time when Russians will be traveling to Ukraine for employment opportunities and the promise of prosperity that will not be available to them in Russia. I would even go as far as to suggest that, in a reversal of Putin's imperial ambitions, Russia becoming Ukraine's sphere of influence is not out of the question.

[SunSeeker]

10. Exactly. nt

[bluewater]

13. Ukraine is not rich, Ukraine was the third poorest country in Europe in 2021

15 poorest countries in Europe with the lowest GDP per capita

GDP (Gross Domestic Product) per capita reflects the average wealth of each resident in a given country. It is obtained by dividing the country's gross domestic product, adjusted by inflation, by the total population. Here is a ranking of European countries by wealth.

1. Kosovo - GDP per capita $10,766
2. Moldova - GDP per capita $12,325
3. Ukraine - GDP per capita $12,377
...
11. Russia - GDP per capita $26,456

https://www.msn.com/en-xl/africa/other/15-poorest-countries-in-europe-with-the-lowest-gdp-in-2021/ar-AAPplFU

so much for twitter as a reliable news source...



But more on point, because of the brutal Russian invasion, Ukraine's GDP is expected to drop 55% this year:

The Ukrainian government estimated on Monday the economic losses from the Russian invasion, which has been underway for just over one month, at nearly $565 billion (€515 billion)

Ukraine’s economy minister, Yulia Svyrydenko, said on Facebook that the estimate includes immediate damage plus expected losses in trade and economic activity.

"It should be noted that every day the numbers change and unfortunately they are increasing," said Svyrydenko, who is also a deputy prime minister. Damage to public and private property -- with Russian forces resorting to fierce bombardments that have levelled some cities as their invasion has stalled -- was the biggest element.

Svyrydenko estimated gross domestic product in 2022 would be down by $112 billion (€102 billion), which would be a drop of more than 55 percent of Ukraine's economic activity last year.

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20220328-live-new-round-of-ukraine-russia-talks-expected-in-turkey-catastrophic-situation-in-mariupol

[Ex Lurker]

18. Both can be true

In one country, the wealth goes into the pockets of oligarchs. I the other, it goes into infrastructure and job creation.

[bluewater]

25. And yet Ukraine in 2021 was twice as poor as Russia.

Vague blanket assertations offered without backing details notwithstanding.

15 poorest countries in Europe with the lowest GDP per capita

GDP (Gross Domestic Product) per capita reflects the average wealth of each resident in a given country. It is obtained by dividing the country's gross domestic product, adjusted by inflation, by the total population. Here is a ranking of European countries by wealth.

1. Kosovo - GDP per capita $10,766
2. Moldova - GDP per capita $12,325
3. Ukraine - GDP per capita $12,377
...
11. Russia - GDP per capita $26,456

https://www.msn.com/en-xl/africa/other/15-poorest-countries-in-europe-with-the-lowest-gdp-in-2021/ar-AAPplFU

[SunSeeker]

33. You're cherry picking income stats, which are distorted for Russia. Look at quality of life stats.

Russia has small pockets of super high income, particularly in Moscow and St. Petersburg, due to the oil industry and oligarchs. That distorts the average income for Russia, as Sergej Sumlenny's Twitter thread explains.

You need to look at the overall quality of life, which takes into consideration infrastructure, hospitals, etc. In a study of those quality of life factors, QoL, Russia scored a 97.91, whereas Ukraine scored a 107.8. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/standard-of-living-by-country

[bluewater]

38. The World Bank disagrees, and what would they know, right?

go figure.

WORLD BANK: GDP per capita

Ukraine 2020 $3,724.9

Russian Federation 2020 $10,126.7

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD

[SunSeeker]

41. The World Bank does not disagree that Ukraine has a higher quality of life than Russia.

GDP per capita is not per capita income, nor is it a measure of quality of life.

Russia is basically a gas station. Most of its exports are oil, and accounts for a large share of its GDP. Most Russians, who aren't oil oligarchs, don't share in that wealth.

You're cherry picking a distorted GDP stat and spamming it all over this thread, instead of discussing quality of life measures (wages, roads, hospitals) that are mentioned in Sergej Sumlenny's Twitter thread. Why?

[bluewater]

43. You keep cherry picking because the United Nations Development Programme also disagrees with you

The United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) compiles the Human Development Index (HDI) of 189 countries in the annual Human Development Report. The index considers the health, education and income in a given country to provide a measure of human development which is comparable between countries and over time.[1][2]

52 Increase (1) Russia 0.824 Increase 0.60%

74 Decrease (1) Ukraine 0.779 Increase 0.35%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#

You keep claiming data is being "distorted" while continuing to ignore reliable news sources, the World Bank and theUnited Nations Development Programme (UNDP) well documented and respected Human Development Index just to push twitter nonsense from "Sergej".

[SunSeeker]

47. No, the UNDP does not disagree with me.

The indicators used in the 2020 report were life expectancy at birth; expected years of schooling for children; mean years of schooling for adults; and gross national income per capita. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#

That UN figure is based on "gross national income per capita." As I have explained to you repeatedly in this thread, per capita income or per capita GDP stats for Russia are distorted because of their oil industry, which makes a few people really rich, especially if they're Putin buddies, but does nothing for most Russians.

[bluewater]

55. You keep IGNORING the second UN index adjusted for INCOME INEQUALITY

And here is data from the UN where they take into account income inequality:

This is a list of countries by inequality-adjusted human development index (IHDI), as published by the UNDP in its 2019 Human Development Report. According to the 2016 Report, "The IHDI can be interpreted as the level of human development when inequality is accounted for," whereas the Human Development Index itself, from which the IHDI is derived, is "an index of potential human development (or the maximum IHDI that could be achieved if there were no inequality)."[1][2]

42 Russia 0.740 0.824 10.2 Increase 0.049

45 Ukraine 0.728 0.779 6.4 Increase 0.035

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequality-adjusted_Human_Development_Index

[SunSeeker]

58. No, I'm not. It STILL uses gross income per capita.

Please reply to my post 54 so you are not spamming this thread with duplicative posts.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16536111

[bluewater]

62. "I can't figure out how the UN claims it is filtering out the income distortion of Russia's oil" LOL

"I can't figure out how the UN claims it is filtering out the income distortion of Russia's oil industry"

Yep, that says it all.

The United Nations Development Programme and its findings are wrong and you are right.

I think our discussion has reached an end with that admission.

Enjoy your day.

And, pardon me for replying when you choose to repeatedly post basically repetitive comments.

[SunSeeker]

69. See post 68.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16536302

[bluewater]

71. Circular argument noted.

Offering the same post that the UN's income inequality Human Development Index just refuted is just that, a circular argument.

Honestly, I respect the findings of the United Nations Development Programme more than unsupported opinions and contentions.

[SunSeeker]

75. Russian income stats are distorted, that's a fact not a "circular argument."

The World Population Review supports their conclusions. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/standard-of-living-by-country

You respect everything about the UN? Really? How about the fact that they let Russia take the USSR's seat on the Security Council after the USSR dissolved. Why didn't they let Ukraine take that seat? Why let ANY country take the seat without establishing they are entitled to it and making the required promises of commitment to the UN Charter that they would not invade another country?Russia's invasion of Ukraine violates Article 2(4) of the U.N. Charter, a central tenet of the charter that requires U.N. member states to refrain from the "use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state." https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/how-russias-attack-on-ukraine-violates-international-law

Russia should be kicked out of the UN. Instead, the UN is letting Russia sit on the Security Council, blocking any attempt to send in UN peacekeepers or do anything to stop the bloodshed in Ukraine. The UN was created to stop wars. Now, it has become little more than a fig leaf for dictators. The UN has become a sick joke.

[bluewater]

78. The fact is someone is ignoring an in depth and ongoing study from the United Nations

Honestly, I think the facts speak for themselves at this point.

lol

Take care and best regards.

[SunSeeker]

80. The UN study is not as in depth as the World Population Review.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/standard-of-living-by-country

The UN report relies on just 3 basic factors.

And until the UN kicks Russia out, it deserves no respect.

[bluewater]

84. "The UN study is not as in depth as the World Population Review." LOL

"World Population Review" is a small private, for profit, company and website founded in 2011 according to Media Bias/Fact Check:

Founded in 2011 by Shane Fulmer, World Population Review is a website dedicated to global population data and trends.

This is a straight-up data-driven website with minimal bias. However, they sometimes utilize controversial sources such as data from Richard Lynn, who calculated IQ by country. His study has been accused of being racially biased.

Overall, we rate World Population Review Least Biased based on providing data with minimal bias. We also rate them Mostly Factual rather than High due to the occasional use of poor sources. (D. Van Zandt 11/5/2019) Updated (5/09/2021)

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/world-population-review/

It's founded by Shane Fulmer:

I'm a freelance web developer living in Lancaster, PA. I love working on projects across the stack, but am currently focused on front-end development using React. I also enjoy writing C# applications and experimenting with data visualization. Aside from programming, I enjoy traveling, listening to music, and playing/watching sports.

https://www.shanefulmer.com/#/

This small company's "report" simply is not a counter argument to the United Nation Development Programme's exhausted studies.

To insist otherwise is, well, just silly.

[SunSeeker]

85. The World Population Review used a lot more data sets than the UN.

And it is obviously independent.

You haven't pointed out any sources listed in the report that are unreliable.

[bluewater]

94. HEY!! You CHERRY PICKED your numbers from that WorldPopulationReview's table!!!

Last edited Mon Mar 28, 2022, 06:53 PM - Edit history (1)

Here's the thing when you presented the Worldpopulationreview's quality of life numbers, you cherry picked that from their table!!!

SHAME!!!!



Why didn't you present the CEO WORLD shown in that same table?

The report that said Russia had a higher quality of Life than Ukraine?

The World's Top 10 Countries for Quality of Life, 2021 - CEO World

This survey questioned more than 258,000 people on 10 metrics, including equality, stability, and government transparency. The usual suspects reappear, but their order is again scrambled from previous entries. Moreover, Canada drops to 12th on this list, which also slots Australia down at 17th and welcomes Japan into the top 10. Perhaps comically, although all three lists thus far have had a different country in the top slot, Denmark has placed second every time.

Russia 82.06
Ukraine 78.86
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/standard-of-living-by-country

The Numbeo report only used EIGHT indicies gathered from crowd source data.

The CEO WORLD report used TEN indicies and they actually directly surveyed 258,00 people!

So, why did you cherry pick the Numbeo numbers while IGNORING the more solid results from the CEO World report from the SAME table?

Was it because those facts did not support your assertion that Ukraine was richer then Russia?

Seems so.

[SunSeeker]

99. See post 98.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16538360

[bluewater]

103. You CHERRY PICKED and made a very false claim to boot

"In order to determine the rankings, researchers at the CEOWORLD magazine analyzed and compared 165 countries across 10 key categories: Affordability, ..."

AFFORDABILITY was the first category listed!

But you just ignored that fact and made the erroneous claim:

That is because it addressed purchasing power, not just raw income numbers.
CEO World did not do that

Anyone can read for themselves the actual methodology CEO World used in its survey, and please note they accounted for _both_ AFFORDABILITY and INCOME EQUALITY and also JOB MARKET, which, covers the issue of, in your words, "purchasing power".

Detailed findings & methodology:

In order to determine the rankings, researchers at the CEOWORLD magazine analyzed and compared 165 countries across 10 key categories: Affordability, Economic stability, Family-friendly, A good job market, Income equality, political neutrality & stability, Safety, cultural influence, Well-developed public education system, and Well-developed public health system. Each attribute was graded on a 100-point scale.

https://ceoworld.biz/2021/06/20/the-worlds-best-countries-for-quality-of-life-2021/

The truth of the matter is that you CHERRY PICKED the Numbeo ranks from that table and IGNORED the CEO World rankings that considered more indices INCLUDING several directly related to, in your words, "purchasing power" because CEO WORLD ranked Russia being richer than Ukraine.

Honestly, you were so wrong here with the claim CEO World's ranking did not consider "purchasing power" that it is simply astonishing.

[SunSeeker]

105. See post 104.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16538909

[kcr]

96. How is that disagreeing?

[bluewater]

40. The United Nations Development Programme also disagrees with you

The United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) compiles the Human Development Index (HDI) of 189 countries in the annual Human Development Report. The index considers the health, education and income in a given country to provide a measure of human development which is comparable between countries and over time.[1][2]

52 Increase (1) Russia 0.824 Increase 0.60%

74 Decrease (1) Ukraine 0.779 Increase 0.35%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#

[SunSeeker]

44. No, it doesn't.

That UN figure is based on "gross national income per capita." As I have explained to you repeatedly in this thread, per capita income or per capita GDP stats for Russia are distorted because of their oil industry, which makes a few people really rich, especially if they're Putin buddies, but does nothing for most Russians.

[bluewater]

48. Yes, it does. You don't seem to understand what the UN's Human Development Index is:

The United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) compiles the Human Development Index (HDI) of 189 countries in the annual Human Development Report. The index considers the health, education and income in a given country to provide a measure of human development which is comparable between countries and over time.[1][2]

The HDI was first published in 1990 with the goal of being a more comprehensive measure of human development than purely economic measures such as gross domestic product. The index incorporates three dimensions of human development: a long and healthy life, knowledge, and decent living standards. Various indicators are used to quantify how countries perform on each dimension. The indicators used in the 2020 report were life expectancy at birth; expected years of schooling for children; mean years of schooling for adults; and gross national income per capita. The indicators are used to create a health index, an education index and an income index, each with a value between 0 and 1. The geometric mean of the three indices—that is, the cube root of the product of the indices—is the human development index. A value above 0.800 is classified as very high, between 0.700 and 0.799 as high, 0.550 to 0.699 as medium, and below 0.550 as low.[1][3][4]

But let's address your claim even more specifically:

List of countries by inequality-adjusted Human Development Index

This is a list of countries by inequality-adjusted human development index (IHDI), as published by the UNDP in its 2019 Human Development Report. According to the 2016 Report, "The IHDI can be interpreted as the level of human development when inequality is accounted for," whereas the Human Development Index itself, from which the IHDI is derived, is "an index of potential human development (or the maximum IHDI that could be achieved if there were no inequality)."[1][2]

42 Russia 0.740 0.824 10.2 Increase 0.049

45 Ukraine 0.728 0.779 6.4 Increase 0.035

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequality-adjusted_Human_Development_Index

Boom, there it is, the UN says that adjusted for income inequality, Russia has a better Human Development Index than Ukraine.

[bluewater]

50. List of countries by inequality-adjusted Human Development Index

List of countries by inequality-adjusted Human Development Index

This is a list of countries by inequality-adjusted human development index (IHDI), as published by the UNDP in its 2019 Human Development Report. According to the 2016 Report, "The IHDI can be interpreted as the level of human development when inequality is accounted for," whereas the Human Development Index itself, from which the IHDI is derived, is "an index of potential human development (or the maximum IHDI that could be achieved if there were no inequality)."[1][2]

42 Russia 0.740 0.824 10.2 Increase 0.049

45 Ukraine 0.728 0.779 6.4 Increase 0.035

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequality-adjusted_Human_Development_Index

Boom, there it is, the UN says that adjusted for income inequality, Russia has a better Human Development Index than Ukraine.

[SunSeeker]

51. Nope. Again, your stats use gross income per capita, distorted by Russia's oil industry.

The indicators used in the 2020 report were life expectancy at birth; expected years of schooling for children; mean years of schooling for adults; and gross national income per capita. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#

That UN figure is based on "gross national income per capita." As I have explained to you repeatedly in this thread, per capita income or per capita GDP stats for Russia are distorted because of their oil industry, which makes a few people really rich, especially if they're Putin buddies, but does nothing for most Russians.

[bluewater]

53. You just IGNORED when the UN adjusted for INCOME INEQUALITY in another report

You really need to re-read this and stop quoting passages about the non-adjusted index, hmmm?

List of countries by inequality-adjusted Human Development Index

This is a list of countries by inequality-adjusted human development index (IHDI), as published by the UNDP in its 2019 Human Development Report. According to the 2016 Report, "The IHDI can be interpreted as the level of human development when inequality is accounted for," whereas the Human Development Index itself, from which the IHDI is derived, is "an index of potential human development (or the maximum IHDI that could be achieved if there were no inequality)."[1][2]

42 Russia 0.740 0.824 10.2 Increase 0.049

45 Ukraine 0.728 0.779 6.4 Increase 0.035

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequality-adjusted_Human_Development_Index

Boom, there it is, the UN says that adjusted for income inequality, Russia has a better Human Development Index than Ukraine.

[SunSeeker]

59. No, I'm not. It STILL uses gross income per capita.

Please reply to my post 54 so you are not spamming this thread with duplicative posts.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16536111

[bluewater]

60. "I can't figure out how the UN claims it is filtering out the income distortion of Russia's oil" LOL

"I can't figure out how the UN claims it is filtering out the income distortion of Russia's oil industry"

Thank you!

It is obvious that you do not have the expertise of the United Nations Development Programme.

That you keep choosing to ignore a well documented and well respected and reliable resource like the United Nations Development Programme's inequality-adjusted human development index (IHDi) simply speaks volumes in and of itself.

If any individual here wants to claim they have a better take on the actual facts than the United Nations Development Programme, I choose to just shake my head in amusement and end the discussion.



Enjoy your day.

[SunSeeker]

68. The UN admits IT STILL USES PER GROSS INCOME PER CAPITA in both stats

The reason I can't figure out how it compensates for it is because your UN Wikipedia page does not state the methodology the UN used. But whatever the methodology, the UN still admits it uses gross income per capita, a figure which is particularly distorted for Russia, and it is unclear how or if the UN accounted for that.

And just as a reminder, Russia is a member of the UN, with veto power, and may have had a hand in these studies and their methodology.

Your World Bank stat was just GDP per capita and did not even attempt to account for the distortion of the Russian oil industry.

The quality of life stat I posted, which put Ukraine above Russia, uses a much broader set of criteria. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/standard-of-living-by-country

[bluewater]

73. And UN's United Nations Development Programme is wrong just because you say so?

Not buying that.

Sorry.

[SunSeeker]

76. See post 75.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16536427

[bluewater]

81. Your rebuttal to the United Nation Development Programme report's is "World Population Review"?!?

Seriously?



It is a small private, for profit, company and website founded in 2011 according to Media Bias/Fact Check:

Founded in 2011 by Shane Fulmer, World Population Review is a website dedicated to global population data and trends. According to their about page, they state “Most demographic data is hidden in spreadsheets, behind complex APIs, or inside cumbersome tools. World Population Review’s goal is to make this data more accessible through graphs, charts, analysis, and visualizations.” They further report, “World Population Review is an independent organization without any political affiliations.”

Editorially, we cannot find evidence of any overt political opinions being offered. This is a straight-up data-driven website with minimal bias. However, they sometimes utilize controversial sources such as data from Richard Lynn, who calculated IQ by country. His study has been accused of being racially biased.

Overall, we rate World Population Review Least Biased based on providing data with minimal bias. We also rate them Mostly Factual rather than High due to the occasional use of poor sources. (D. Van Zandt 11/5/2019) Updated (5/09/2021)

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/world-population-review/

Here is the personal website of World Population Review's founder, Shane Fulmer:

I'm a freelance web developer living in Lancaster, PA. I love working on projects across the stack, but am currently focused on front-end development using React. I also enjoy writing C# applications and experimenting with data visualization. Aside from programming, I enjoy traveling, listening to music, and playing/watching sports.

https://www.shanefulmer.com/#/

To offer this as a counter argument to the United Nations Human Development Programme's Inequality-adjusted Human Development Index is, well, insufficient, to say the least.

[SunSeeker]

87. See post 85.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16536818

[bluewater]

88. The United Nations versus Shane Fulmer's little company... who should we believe most?

OK...

[bluewater]

95. OMG, you CHERRY PICKED results from the WorldPopulationReview table!!!!

But here's the thing when you presented those quality of life numbers, you cherry picked that from the WorldPopulationReview's table.

Why didn't you present the CEO WORLD shown in that same table? The report that said Russia had a higher quality of Life than Ukraine?

The World's Top 10 Countries for Quality of Life, 2021 - CEO World

This survey questioned more than 258,000 people on 10 metrics, including equality, stability, and government transparency. The usual suspects reappear, but their order is again scrambled from previous entries. Moreover, Canada drops to 12th on this list, which also slots Australia down at 17th and welcomes Japan into the top 10. Perhaps comically, although all three lists thus far have had a different country in the top slot, Denmark has placed second every time.

Russia 82.06
Ukraine 78.86

The Numbeo report only used EIGHT indicies gathered from crowd source data.

The CEO WORLD report used TEN indicies and they actually directly surveyed 258,00 people!

Were the results of that survey not mentioned because they countered your claim that Ukraine was richer than Russia?

Seems so.

[SunSeeker]

100. See post 98.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16538360

[bluewater]

102. You just CHERRY PICKED, CEO World did indeed CONSIDER affordability

"In order to determine the rankings, researchers at the CEOWORLD magazine analyzed and compared 165 countries across 10 key categories: Affordability, ..."

AFFORDABILITY was the first category listed!

But you just ignored that fact and made the erroneous claim:

That is because it [i.e. the Numbeo rankings] addressed purchasing power, not just raw income numbers.
CEO World did not do that

Here is the actual methodology CEO World used in its survey, and please note they accounted for _both_ AFFORDABILITY and INCOME EQUALITY and also JOB MARKET, which, covers the issue of, in your words, "purchasing power".

Detailed findings & methodology:

In order to determine the rankings, researchers at the CEOWORLD magazine analyzed and compared 165 countries across 10 key categories: Affordability, Economic stability, Family-friendly, A good job market, Income equality, political neutrality & stability, Safety, cultural influence, Well-developed public education system, and Well-developed public health system. Each attribute was graded on a 100-point scale.

https://ceoworld.biz/2021/06/20/the-worlds-best-countries-for-quality-of-life-2021/

You CHERRY PICKED the Numbeo ranks from that table and ignored the CEO World rankings because CEO WORLD ranked Russia being richer than Ukraine.

[SunSeeker]

106. See post 104.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16538909

[Wingus Dingus]

24. Interesting, the responses this thread drew.

Some people are really offended by any comparative praise of Ukraine vs. Russia. Yep.

[bluewater]

26. And some people rather believe twitter than reliable news sources and data.

Go figure.

15 poorest countries in Europe with the lowest GDP per capita

GDP (Gross Domestic Product) per capita reflects the average wealth of each resident in a given country. It is obtained by dividing the country's gross domestic product, adjusted by inflation, by the total population. Here is a ranking of European countries by wealth.

1. Kosovo - GDP per capita $10,766
2. Moldova - GDP per capita $12,325
3. Ukraine - GDP per capita $12,377
...
11. Russia - GDP per capita $26,456

https://www.msn.com/en-xl/africa/other/15-poorest-countries-in-europe-with-the-lowest-gdp-in-2021/ar-AAPplFU

[Wingus Dingus]

28. Why would this rustle your jimmies so much?

That you're digging up stats? Who cares if there's reports from kids from some shitty part of Russia that they're impressed with Ukraine?

[bluewater]

31. Digging up stats, to use your words, "rustles your jimmies" for some reason?

We should all accept inaccurate twitter nonsense presented here without comment?

And backing up comments pointing out that twitter nonsense with facts from reliable news sources is now bad?

Um, I don't think so.

15 poorest countries in Europe with the lowest GDP per capita

GDP (Gross Domestic Product) per capita reflects the average wealth of each resident in a given country. It is obtained by dividing the country's gross domestic product, adjusted by inflation, by the total population. Here is a ranking of European countries by wealth.

1. Kosovo - GDP per capita $10,766
2. Moldova - GDP per capita $12,325
3. Ukraine - GDP per capita $12,377
...
11. Russia - GDP per capita $26,456

https://www.msn.com/en-xl/africa/other/15-poorest-countries-in-europe-with-the-lowest-gdp-in-2021/ar-AAPplFU

Facts are stubborn things.

[Wingus Dingus]

32. You should go back to constantly demoralizing us about Mariupol...

I mean:

[SunSeeker]

34. LOL

[bluewater]

36. And why would posting on the carnage happening in Mariupol bother anyone?

Sorry if it ruins the mood.

[SunSeeker]

49. Why do you dig up stats you know are distorted by Russia's oil industry?

You are spamming this thread with your GDP per capita and gross income per capita stats for Russia that you know are distorted by Russian oil industry exports and income, which the vast majority of Russians do not benefit from.

[bluewater]

52. You keep ignoring this - List of countries by inequality-adjusted Human Development Index

List of countries by inequality-adjusted Human Development Index

This is a list of countries by inequality-adjusted human development index (IHDI), as published by the UNDP in its 2019 Human Development Report. According to the 2016 Report, "The IHDI can be interpreted as the level of human development when inequality is accounted for," whereas the Human Development Index itself, from which the IHDI is derived, is "an index of potential human development (or the maximum IHDI that could be achieved if there were no inequality)."[1][2]

42 Russia 0.740 0.824 10.2 Increase 0.049

45 Ukraine 0.728 0.779 6.4 Increase 0.035

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequality-adjusted_Human_Development_Index

Boom, there it is, the UN says that adjusted for income inequality, Russia has a better Human Development Index than Ukraine.

So you keep claiming "data is distorted" from reliable news sources, the World BAnk and now the UN.

Why? To attempt to validate twitter nonsense from some guy "Sergej"?

[SunSeeker]

54. Both UN stats you keep citing still use gross income per capita.

This is a list of countries by inequality-adjusted human development index (IHDI), as published by the UNDP in its 2019 Human Development Report. According to the 2016 Report, "The IHDI can be interpreted as the level of human development when inequality is accounted for," whereas the Human Development Index itself, from which the IHDI is derived, is "an index of potential human development (or the maximum IHDI that could be achieved if there were no inequality).https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequality-adjusted_Human_Development_Index

I can't figure out how the UN claims it is filtering out the income distortion of Russia's oil industry, but it admits it is still using that statistic. Nonetheless, after whatever statistical gymnastics it performs, the UN basically has Russia and Ukraine as the same color on the adjusted stat, whereas as the unadjusted stat you keep pasting all over this thread has Russian GDP per capita twice that of Ukraine, so that should tell you something about how much income inequality there is in Russia.

[bluewater]

61. "I can't figure out how the UN claims..." LOL, obviously.

"I can't figure out how the UN claims it is filtering out the income distortion of Russia's oil industry"

It is obvious that you do not have the expertise of the United Nations Development Programme.

That you keep choosing to ignore a well documented and well respected and reliable resource like the United Nations Development Programme's inequality-adjusted human development index (IHDi) simply speaks volumes in and of itself.

I think your admission of "not being able to figure out how the UN claims" it's findings means our discussion has come to conclusion.



Enjoy your Day.

[SunSeeker]

70. See post 68.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16536302

[bluewater]

72. That prior post offers no real response.

The UN's income inequality Human Development Index I presented just refuted that post, so, well, that's a circular argument.

Again, I respect the findings of the United Nations Development Programme more than unsupported opinions.

[SunSeeker]

77. See post 75.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16536427

[bluewater]

82. Offering a small company's report against the United Nation Development Programme's studies?

Last edited Mon Mar 28, 2022, 04:19 PM - Edit history (1)

Wow.

According to Media Bias/Fact Check:

Founded in 2011 by Shane Fulmer, World Population Review is a website dedicated to global population data and trends.
...

This is a straight-up data-driven website with minimal bias. However, they sometimes utilize controversial sources such as data from Richard Lynn, who calculated IQ by country. His study has been accused of being racially biased.

Overall, we rate World Population Review Least Biased based on providing data with minimal bias. We also rate them Mostly Factual rather than High due to the occasional use of poor sources. (D. Van Zandt 11/5/2019) Updated (5/09/2021)

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/world-population-review/

It's founded by Shane Fulmer, and his personal website gives us some insight into his level of professionalism compared to the United Nations'.

I'm a freelance web developer living in Lancaster, PA. I love working on projects across the stack, but am currently focused on front-end development using React. I also enjoy writing C# applications and experimenting with data visualization. Aside from programming, I enjoy traveling, listening to music, and playing/watching sports.

https://www.shanefulmer.com/#/

To suggest that Shane Fulmer and his small company should be given equal weight to the United Nations Human Development Programme is, well, nonsensical.

[SunSeeker]

86. See post 85.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16536818

[bluewater]

89. Hmm, Shane Fulmer's small company or the United Nations... I wonder who might be more correct?

[bluewater]

97. CHERRY PICKING data from the Worldpopulation review's table? Yes and easily proven.

Last edited Mon Mar 28, 2022, 07:47 PM - Edit history (1)

You cherry picked numbers from that Worldpopulationreview table.

You ignored the column that said Russia had a higher quality of Life than Ukraine!

The World's Top 10 Countries for Quality of Life, 2021 - CEO World

This survey questioned more than 258,000 people on 10 metrics, including equality, stability, and government transparency. The usual suspects reappear, but their order is again scrambled from previous entries. Moreover, Canada drops to 12th on this list, which also slots Australia down at 17th and welcomes Japan into the top 10. Perhaps comically, although all three lists thus far have had a different country in the top slot, Denmark has placed second every time.

Russia 82.06
Ukraine 78.86
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/standard-of-living-by-country

The Numbeo report numbers you quoted only used EIGHT indices gathered from crowd source data.

The CEO WORLD report used TEN indices and they actually directly surveyed 258,00 people!

Why ignore the results from the CEO World 258,000 person survey from the SAME table?

Was it because those numbers did not support your assertion that Ukraine was richer then Russia?

That's just disingenuous.

[SunSeeker]

98. No. WPR surveyed various studies and found the Numbeo QoL to be "one of the most comprehensive."

That is because it addressed purchasing power, not just raw income numbers:

One of the most comprehensive equations is Numbeo's Quality of Life Index, which measures eight indices: purchasing power (including rent), safety, health care, cost of living, property price to income ratio, traffic commute time, pollution, and climate. Purchasing power, cost of living, and property price to income ratio are all measures of the average citizen's financial wherewithal in a country, which connects directly to the standard of living. Traffic Commute Time is self-explanatory but vital (as any commuter will testify).

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/standard-of-living-by-country

CEO World did not do that. Neither did the UN report, which you chose to go with, and which was also discussed by WPR. Basically what WPR did was survey and critique the main surveys out there. I agree with WPR regarding the comprehensiveness of Numbeo and Numbeo's choice of indices.

If you don't think actual purchasing power is important and just care about gross income numbers, then obviously you are loving that UN report, or the CEO World report.

[bluewater]

101. CEOWORLD analyzed 10 key categories: Affordability... so, you just CHERRY PICKED LOL

Um, did you go to CEO World and check their methodology?

Apparently not.

"In order to determine the rankings, researchers at the CEOWORLD magazine analyzed and compared 165 countries across 10 key categories: Affordability, ..."

AFFORDABILITY was the first category listed!

But you just ignored that fact and made the erroneous claim:

That is because it addressed purchasing power, not just raw income numbers.
CEO World did not do that

Here is the ACTUAL methodology CEO World used in its survey, and please note they accounted for _both_ AFFORDABILITY and INCOME EQUALITY and also JOB MARKET, which, um sure as hell shows they addressed the issue of, in your words, "purchasing power".

Detailed findings & methodology:

In order to determine the rankings, researchers at the CEOWORLD magazine analyzed and compared 165 countries across 10 key categories: Affordability, Economic stability, Family-friendly, A good job market, Income equality, political neutrality & stability, Safety, cultural influence, Well-developed public education system, and Well-developed public health system. Each attribute was graded on a 100-point scale.

Raw data for countries were normalized on a 1-100 scale according to the following: Each individual indicator was given equal weighting within each of ten categories with some indicators being comprised of 2-3 sub-indicators that were also weighted equally. Each category was weighted equally to arrive at the overall index.

Sources: CEOWORLD magazine put together a panel of experts to go over data points culled from sources like the EIU Index, World Economic Forum, Global Insight, the Global Gender Gap Index, Gini, and Gender Gap index, The Legatum Prosperity Index, Transparency International, Environmental Performance Index, Better Life Index, CIA World Factbook, World Bank, UNDP Annual Report, as well as CEOWORLD magazine research. They then used that information to compare the world’s countries for its citizens and residents. Based on a consensus from these sources, the final choice of cities was judged editorially, as was their position on the list. All data is for the most recent period available.

https://ceoworld.biz/2021/06/20/the-worlds-best-countries-for-quality-of-life-2021/

It seems like you didn't do any research on this when you CHERRY PICKED those Numbeo rankings and made the mistake of posting this false claim:

That is because it addressed purchasing power, not just raw income numbers.
CEO World did not do that

The fact is, you CHERRY PICKED the Numbeo ranks from that table and IGNORED the CEO World rankings because CEO WORLD ranked Russia being richer than Ukraine.

[SunSeeker]

104. Affordability is not the same as purchasing power. Affordable to whom?

And based on what measure of income? It is apparent CEO World is going by gross income per capita, like the UN report, so CEO World's idea of "affordability" is not as meaningful as purchasing power.

I, like World Population Report, find the Numbeo Quality of Life Report relying on purchasing power to be better, and more comprehensive. Numbeo doesn't have an ax to grind, nor does it have a pro-business agenda, like CEO World magaizine. CEO World magazine bills itself as "the world's leading business magazine and news site for CEOs​, CFOs, senior executives, business leaders, & high net-worth individuals." I don't think they're the best judge of what the ordinary Ukrainian or Russian finds "affordable."

Choosing one report over another is not "cherry picking" or "ignoring" the other reports, any more than you going with the CEO World report amounts to you cherry-picking or ignoring the Numbeo report.

Your insults and triple posting of everything you say are really over the top.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on which report is better. Surely you have better things to do with your life than triple posting every post in what has become a pointless conversation. I happen to think the Numbeo QoL report is better. You'll just have to live with that.

[bluewater]

107. So now it's down to semantics? Seems so. LOL

"Affordability is not the same as purchasing power. Affordable to whom?"

And based on what measure of income? It is apparent CEO World is going by gross income per capita, like the UN report, so CEO World's idea of "affordability" is not as meaningful as purchasing power.

I had to laugh at that.

"Affordable to whom?"

Um, the average citizen that all the quality of life rankings say they are based on, including the one you like?



But on to the second part of your last reply, that all the rankings I presented, including the two from the UN, were "going by gross income per capita" and that was bad because of income inequality in Russia.

Well, you all ready blew off the UN ranking that took income inequality into account, right?

But, OK, if you check the methodology of the ranking you favor, you will find that it bases its "purchasing power" numbers on, wait for it, the average gross income per capita too!



But let's press on an put the final nail in the coffin of your last argument, namely the claim that rankings that use gross national income per capita and showed Russia was richer than Ukraine were "distorted" by differences in income inequality. Vast differences.

That simply is not true. Several reliable studies show that while income inequality is indeed less in Ukraine, it's not that much less to account for the vast difference in gross national incomes, where Russia's is over three times as large as Ukraine.

Let's look at some GINI Index rankings, where the Gini index is " a quantified representation of a nation's Lorenz curve. A Gini index of 0% expresses perfect equality, while index of 100% expresses maximal inequality."

Country GINI Median income(daily)

United States 41.4 $48.90

Russia 37.5 $17.10

Ukraine 26.1 $10.20

The US is included for comparison.

To be honest, Ukraine's is quite good and in the lowest (best) grouping of nations. The US and Russia are both one tier up (worse) from that. SO Russia's GINI is about 43% worse than Ukraine's.

That GINI number doesn't seem to be enough to make up for the greater difference in gross national incomes:

Russia $10,690 per capita

Ukraine $3,540 per capita

Russia's Gross National Income per capita is 3 times that of Ukraine.

But income inequality is not a measure of how rich a country is or how impoverished its lower earning citizens are, consider the case of the US for example.

So included in that table is the median daily income for the US, Russia, and Ukraine.

Huh, look at the median income, which by definition means there are as many values greater than that number as less than and is therefore less susceptible of being "distorted" by a small number of extremely rich earners as an average value might be.

Russia's median daily income is greater than Ukraine's.

Go figure.

So much for Russia being impoverished compared to Ukraine.

Well, looking back on all the posts I think one thing can clearly be said, Russia is definitely NOT "impoverished" compared to Ukraine as you originally claimed supporting "Sergej" and his tweets.

Quite the contrary, a strong case can, and I think has, been made that Russia is, in fact, the richer of the two.

Maybe that's why very reputable sources have been saying that Ukraine is one of the three poorest countries in Europe:

15 poorest countries in Europe with the lowest GDP per capita

GDP (Gross Domestic Product) per capita reflects the average wealth of each resident in a given country. It is obtained by dividing the country's gross domestic product, adjusted by inflation, by the total population. Here is a ranking of European countries by wealth.

1. Kosovo - GDP per capita $10,766
2. Moldova - GDP per capita $12,325
3. Ukraine - GDP per capita $12,377
...
11. Russia - GDP per capita $26,456

https://www.msn.com/en-xl/africa/other/15-poorest-countries-in-europe-with-the-lowest-gdp-in-2021/ar-AAPplFU

so much for "Sergej's" twitter stream as a reliable news source...

[SunSeeker]

30. Yep. nt