Perfect response. We need to address masculine toxicity

[Baltimike]

Link to tweet

[exboyfil]

1. Or you can be even more of a man

and campaign for the man who belittled your wife (see Senator Ted Cruz).

[calimary]

38. Or avoid beating up on some wisecracking emcee in front of a worldwide audience

at a prestigious annual awards show!

Her Honor’s husband was total class, elegance, and support.

[exboyfil]

50. They are a couple with true grace and dignity

I am looking forward to 30+ years of her on the Court.

[DLevine]

2. K&R

[AllTooEasy]

67. Umm, I don't believe Will would've slapped a US senator, or The Rock

Slapping a skinny, 5’10”, 160lb comedian on stage is one thing. Slapping a US senator comes with a entirely different set of Legal consequences. Just like slapping a 6’5”, 260lb, muscle bound, former college football defensive end comes with an entirely different set of Health consequences.

I seriously doubt Will wouldn’t have assaulted the last two personal references. Toxic masculinity tends to halt at the imminent threat of federal prison time or getting one’s ass kicked.

[bluescribbler]

3. I'll bet...

I'll bet he won't even try to tell her how to vote on a case.

[geardaddy]

103. DUzy!

[pnwmom]

4. Or let's talk about Chris Rock's toxic masculinity.

As the producer and narrator of Good Hair, he knew how common alopecia is among Black women, and how painful. And Jada has spoken publicly about her own struggle.

And yet Rock thought it was okay to make her the brunt of a joke about this.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

5. This.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

6. Did he know?

I know a lot of people who are learning about her alopecia today. If he did know, it was completely tasteless. If he didn't know, it was just a bad joke.

But Smith's response didn't seem to me about defending his wife's honor, it seemed to be about proving his manliness. He was laughing along with everyone else until he saw the look in her eye. And this was after jokes that were essentially saying he was a kept husband.

[pnwmom]

7. He knew there was an excellent chance she has alopecia

because almost half of Black women do.

It was not a safe topic to make a joke about.

As far as Smith's reaction, he was laughing because it was a comedy sketch -- until the meaning of the joke sunk in. Then he lost it, because he'd watched his wife's suffering for years. And she's been public about how devastating it's been.

I can't believe Rock, the producer of Good Hair, never thought about how that joke might hit a Black woman with a shaved head.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

36. Almost half of Black women have alopecia?

I find that astonishing, given that all the years I attended the National Alopecia Areata Foundation conferences, I'd see maybe one or two Black women at a conference of several hundred.

Both of my sons have alopecia areata universalis and so I'm reasonably familiar with the subject.

[pnwmom]

46. From the American Academy of Dermatology via Science Net Daily.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160304093239.htm

Survey: Almost half of African-American women have experienced hair loss

According to Dr. Lenzy, the No. 1 cause of hair loss in African-American women is a condition called central centrifugal cicatricial alopecia (CCCA), a disorder in which inflammation and destruction of hair follicles causes scarring and permanent hair loss. She says this population is also prone to traction alopecia, a type of hair loss caused by styles that pull the hair too tight. In addition to these conditions, she says, African-American women also may be affected by other hair disorders like female pattern baldness.

Dr. Lenzy and other experts believe that genetic predisposition may be a major factor in hair loss among African-American women.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

61. Thank you.

I did a bit more research on my own, and quickly realized that what most Black women experience isn't at all like any classic alopecia areata.

I also tried to find pictures of Jada Plinkett Smith on line, and the ones I find look nothing at all like the alopecia I'm familiar with. In all honestly, what they do with and to their hair is a huge factor.

If classic alopecia areata were all that common in the Black population, we'd have seen lots of Black children with it at the conferences. But we didn't, at least in the time I was attending them.

This is not to diminish hair loss of any kind. My younger sister's hair got extremely thin about ten years ago, apparently from a thyroid condition. With appropriate medication and some kind of hair treatment, it's improved a lot, but is still nothing like the wondrously thick hair she had in her youth.

I have tried to do a copy and paste of pictures of alopecia areata, but alas, cannot seem to do so. However, the link below will take you to a page with lots and lots of pictures of alopecia areata in its many forms. This is what I'm familiar with. Please click on it.

I will tell you that my sons both started their adventure with alopecia with a classic, quarter sized bald patch. It happened to my oldest when he was four. I was very fortunate in that a good friend of mine at the time was a hair dresser. She took one look at the bald spot, said, "He has alopecia areata, you need to take him to a dermatologist." All too often it takes years for the correct diagnosis to happen. I was also fortunate in that I learned about the National Alopecia Areata Foundation https://www.naaf.org/ very early on, and started attending their conferences a year later. So when younger son, at the age of ten, got his first bald patch, it wasn't so scary. They both progressed pretty quickly to universalis, and have never had hair regrowth in the decades since.

Again, I know that what I'm talking about here is quite different from what most Black women experience. Anyway, go ahead and click on this link.

https://www.google.com/search?q=classic+alopecia+areata&client=firefox-b-1-d&sxsrf=APq-WBtQhaUC-TCHeCmOENQHAIXgjnhX0A:1648510321196&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwij2unA--n2AhWPXc0KHcN6ACgQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1760&bih=855&dpr=1.09

[pnwmom]

63. A good friend of my mother had "classic" alopecia, and I know how much pain it brought her.

So I am VERY sorry for your sons, and everyone who's suffering with this.

But I wouldn't be dismissive of the pain other people have experienced from other serious, permanent forms of hair loss -- as Rock seems to be. It doesn't really matter what condition causes permanent, significant hair loss. It is very painful, and especially to women.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

72. Trust me, there are things far worse than

alopecia areata, classic or otherwise. I will say that NAAF, https://www.naaf.org/ is a wonderful organization, and I'm glad I connected to them shortly after my oldest lost his hair.

When people see a totally bald child, they understandably tend to assume cancer, chemotherapy. After my first son was totally bald, I'd often be in a place where some little kid would point to him and ask her mom, "Why is that boy bald??" I'd always tell them exactly what was going on. Since most people have never heard of alopecia areata, I was happy to educate them.

Then second son lost all his hair. Both boys were rather small for their ages, so it looked like I had a 10 year old and an 8 year old, apparently both with cancer and undergoing chemotherapy. I could see people looking at them, taking in the bald thing, and I could see them thinking, "Oh, my God! That poor woman! Two of them!" Because neither son was sick, and because I'm generally a cheerful and upbeat person, I'd sort of smile and giggle. Then I could see them thinking, "She handles it so well!" Honestly, there was nothing to handle.

However, more than once we got special privileges because of people's assumptions. One time we were at the gate in the St Louis airport, waiting to board a flight to Kansas City and the boys were quietly playing, neither one wearing a hat. Two totally bald kids. My husband was delayed getting to the gate, so after main boarding, I told them to go on and find their seats. They were experienced enough travellers I knew they could do it. A few minutes later my husband showed up. The gate agent said, "That's your husband?" "Yes," I said. "Here, take this," she said and handed me four first class boarding passes. I was not about to turn them down, just said Thank you.

I have a number of other stories.

As with almost anything in life, we have a choice about how to respond to what happens to us. I generally choose to respond with optimism and good humor. And while being totally bald has its drawbacks (no eyelashes really can be a problem) at least there are zero other health issues directly related to being bald. Indeed, both sons have always been extraordinarily healthy. I honestly think that, at least for them, the alopecia has occurred because of a hyper-active immune system that chose to attack their hair follicles. Over the years they have been far less sick than anyone else. For a while I was very concerned about chicken pox, as they were young before that vaccine, and I wanted them to get it and get over it. The older son had been through at least through onslaughts at his two different elementary schools. Then we paid a spring break visit to my sister whose oldest had just broken out and hooray! Exactly three weeks later they both broke out on the same day. Again, the vaccine was not yet available. They almost never get colds. I know oldest son has gotten flu once. I don't think younger son ever has.

[pnwmom]

82. They are lucky they have parents with such positive attitudes.

Unfortunately, having an auto-immune disease doesn't always mean people will otherwise be healthier. My grandfather had a serious auto-immune disease, rheumatoid arthritis that left him in a wheelchair, and it didn't protect him from infections.

With regard to the Williams sisters, maybe the reason you haven't seen more Black people in the conferences you've gone to is that 15% of Black people have a type of auto-immune hair loss that is almost exclusive to Black people -- in addition to being subject to a number of other types of alopecia, including the type that your sons have. Alopecia areata, by comparison, affects fewer than 1% of Americans.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/28/well/live/alopecia-hair-loss.html

Other people lose hair because their immune system starts attacking their hair follicles in what is known as autoimmune alopecia. Autoimmune forms of alopecia can be caused by discoid lupus erythematosus, which can lead to sores and scarring on the face and scalp. Central centrifugal cicatricial alopecia is another immune-related condition that causes scalp scarring and permanent hair loss. C.C.C.A. almost exclusively arises among Black women between ages 30 and 55, and research suggests it may afflict as many as 15 percent of such women.

Another common form of autoimmune alopecia is alopecia areata. When people talk about alopecia, they are often referring to this type, which affects one in every 500 to 1,000 people in the United States. It’s unclear what kind of alopecia Pinkett Smith has, but her appearance suggests it is alopecia areata, said Dr. George Cotsarelis, a dermatologist at the Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

83. You seem to be confusing the alopecia areata that is auto immune

with all other hair loss, which are also called alopecia. I'm pretty up on classic alopecia areata, given that my oldest son got it some 35 years ago. And my younger son about 25 years ago.

We attended the National Alopecia Areata Foundation conferences for almost two decades. Once my sons were grown, they were no longer interested in attending, and so I haven't gone in nearly 20 years. However I do count many in the NAAF community as friends, including Vicki Kalabokes who was the CEO of NAAF for some 27 years and who died in January.

It does seem as if Central centrifugal cicatricial alopecia is strongly connected to certain practices that cause hair loss, and is not actually auto immune.

The pictures I have seen of Mrs Smith do not look even remotely like the auto immune version of alopecia areata I'm familiar with it. I don't see the round totally bald circles. I don't see them advancing and taking over the whole head. While I'm sure her struggles with hair loss are both real and profound, if her hair loss is because of what she does with her hair, rather than being auto immune, it's an entirely different world. Shaving her head and stopping the chemical and physical things that stress the hair and cause hair loss are going to be in the long run a very good thing.

I used to have an African American friend. We occasionally discussed hair issues. She expressed distress over what the chemical things she was doing to her hair impacted her hair. I suggested she stop doing that, and she pointed out, quite rightly, that I had no idea. I have boring Caucasian hair, and I live in a world that awards that hair. While I can express dissatisfaction with my hair, it really is the normal version of hair in our culture. Hers is not. For me to say she should handle it differently is based in ignorance, and I recognize that. I do know that I, personally, would not be willing to inflict long term damage on my hair.

Oh, and the reason we are no longer friends is that about 15 years ago she moved to another part of the country to help out with her parents. Right before the move she told me she was going to end our friendship because of the move and the demands on her life. I was, and still am, very sorry to lose her friendship. I learned a lot from her. But I more than respect her decision.

[pnwmom]

85. No, I'm not confused. I understand what "classic alopecia areata" is, having watched

a friend suffer through complete hair loss -- alopecia areata universalis.

I'm just pointing out that, according to the NY Times, there is another type of auto-immune driven alopecia called Central centrifugal cicatricial alopecia. And there are also non-immune causes related to hair practices, called traction alopecia.

But what difference does it really make? By the time most women with traction alopecia realize that their hair practices caused it to fall out, the damage is often permanent. (That happened to one of my in-laws.)

The difference between you and Chris Rock, of course, is that as a Black man, he would have been very aware of Black women's struggles with their hair. He'd even interviewed at least one woman suffering from alopecia for his documentary. So he really had no excuse.


https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/28/well/live/alopecia-hair-loss.html

A type of hair loss common in the Black community is traction alopecia, which occurs when hair has been pulled tight for too long.

Other people lose hair because their immune system starts attacking their hair follicles in what is known as autoimmune alopecia. Autoimmune forms of alopecia can be caused by discoid lupus erythematosus, which can lead to sores and scarring on the face and scalp. Central centrifugal cicatricial alopecia is another immune-related condition that causes scalp scarring and permanent hair loss. C.C.C.A. almost exclusively arises among Black women between ages 30 and 55, and research suggests it may afflict as many as 15 percent of such women.

Another common form of autoimmune alopecia is alopecia areata. When people talk about alopecia, they are often referring to this type, which affects one in every 500 to 1,000 people in the United States. It’s unclear what kind of alopecia Pinkett Smith has, but her appearance suggests it is alopecia areata, said Dr. George Cotsarelis, a dermatologist at the Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

86. Hair loss that results from hair practices can easily be resolved.

Just stop those practices.

I have had too many times when people have confidently told me that my kid's hair loss is from stress. I want to do severe damage to them. As I said, I may not be the best mom in the world, but I really don't think I was so toxic as to cause my four year old to go totally bald. And honestly, if stress were the primary cause of hair loss, then a fuck of a lot of people would be bald.

From my reading, Central centrifugal cicatricial alopecia is not auto immune. It really does seem connected to specific hair practices.

I really want to see the photographs of Jade Pinkett Smith that shows classic alopecia areata, especially the very specific quarter sized bald patches that grow and spread. Go ahead and Google alopecia areata and look at the pictures. I've been connected to the alopecia areata community since 1987, and so I think I have a certain credibility here.

[pnwmom]

87. I think you're confusing traction alopecia, which is caused by stress on the hair & is reversible,

with central centrifugal cicatricial alopecia, which is permanent -- and affects 15% of Black women.


We don't know which type she had, but if she was diagnosed with CCCA, that would fit with her devastated reaction. If a doctor had told her four years ago that all she had to do was stop stressing her hair, she could have grown her hair out by now. She wouldn't have decided shaving her head permanently was her only choice.

This piece is from the Journal of the American Medical Association:


https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamadermatology/fullarticle/2768748

At its onset, CCCA presents as hair breaking and thinning in the crown of the scalp. The area of thinning hair expands over time and progresses to more severe, permanent hair loss. Some patients experience burning, itching, tenderness, redness, scaling (flaking), and acne-like pimples or bumps in the region of hair loss.

A diagnosis of CCCA is often made through a clinical examination of the scalp. A dermatoscope, which is a handheld magnifying tool, may be used to view the affected area. The physician may also perform a scalp biopsy (a small portion of the scalp skin is removed and examined under microscopic) to support the diagnosis.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

89. It is still not the same as

alopecia areata, which is an auto immune disease.

It also seems as if central centrifugal cicatricial alopecia is connected to hair practices. It certainly strikes me that discontinuing things like braiding, chemical or heat treatments, ought to be the first start. Again, as someone with two sons with an auto immune disease, meaning NOTHING they might do will change it, is a whole lot different from conditions where behavior matters.

People are often in denial. In denial about lots of things. I'll start with the smokers who are shocked, just shocked when diagnosed with lung cancer. Or overweight people diagnosed with type 2 diabetes. Or high blood pressure. You get the picture. You do things that severely stress you hair, do not be surprised when you experience hair loss. And DON'T make it sound the same as an auto immune disease.

Shall I tell you all about what it's like to have two young sons who are totally bald, and who people think have cancer and are undergoing chemotherapy?

[pnwmom]

92. I completely understand how devastating the disease must be to your family.

I don't understand, since you've provided no links, why you think CCCA, the other form of permanent immune-related alopecia, which may be genetically linked, shouldn't be equally devastating to those who have it.

(Also, FWIW, the link below quotes a dermatology professor at U Penn School of Medicine saying Jada appears to have alopecia areata, the same form as your sons.)


https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/28/well/live/alopecia-hair-loss.html

A type of hair loss common in the Black community is traction alopecia, which occurs when hair has been pulled tight for too long.

Other people lose hair because their immune system starts attacking their hair follicles in what is known as autoimmune alopecia. Autoimmune forms of alopecia can be caused by discoid lupus erythematosus, which can lead to sores and scarring on the face and scalp. Central centrifugal cicatricial alopecia is another immune-related condition that causes scalp scarring and permanent hair loss. C.C.C.A. almost exclusively arises among Black women between ages 30 and 55, and research suggests it may afflict as many as 15 percent of such women.

Another common form of autoimmune alopecia is alopecia areata. When people talk about alopecia, they are often referring to this type, which affects one in every 500 to 1,000 people in the United States. It’s unclear what kind of alopecia Pinkett Smith has, but her appearance suggests it is alopecia areata, said Dr. George Cotsarelis, a dermatologist at the Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania.

[llashram]

100. Mr Smith

showed an amazing lack of self-control. After parties are numerous after this back-slapping...he could have approached Chris and voiced his displeasure. Yeah, it was insulting and his wife's pain must be present and real. Yet no excuse for what Mr SMITH DID. Upholding her honour like that....? Dawn was a few hours away. I'm sure they could have found a field somewhere to meet...

[uponit7771]

41. If it wasn't funny it wasn't funny, Jada didn't laugh at first. He smacked a guy for comparing his

... wife to a badass shero.

Come on

[yorkster]

64. I knew instantly it was about her hair.

No way Smith should have slapped him, but this sure came across as intentional on Rock's part. Not in the least bit funny.

[uponit7771]

39. +1, he was laughing until he saw Jada roll her eyes

[PunkinPi]

40. Here's a clip from the documentary "Good Hair" where alopecia is discussed with Rock...

Link to tweet

In case you want to understand the trauma Jada and other Black women experience because of their hair. This clip is, ironically, from the #ChrisRock documentary “Good Hair”. He absolutely knew better. #ProtectBlackWomen #WillSmith

[pnwmom]

47. Thank you so much for posting this! I knew Rock had to have known. n/t

[PunkinPi]

49. You're welcome. And he definitely did know. nt

[Baltimike]

8. Do you think violence was the asnwer?

Because there were jokes made earlier about their open marriage, and no one got assaulted

[pnwmom]

9. No, I'm not excusing the violence. But I'm also not excusing the verbal attack.

And the open marriage was a CHOICE. Her alopecia is a painful health condition.

[Baltimike]

10. The OP addressed that. There were many other ways to handle it

like the link in the OP.

Also, the 'jokes about people's appearances should justify or explain or defend violence" crowds are a little late to the game, considering fat jokes, short people jokes, ethnic jokes, etc.

[pnwmom]

11. This was a joke directed to a specific person. I don't like mean jokes in general,

but they're worse when they're directed to a specific individual.

She was there to watch the Academy Awards, not to be treated to a Don Rickles-style insult -- without any chance to answer him back.

[Baltimike]

22. The OP addressed that. Entirely.

You can't claim the moral high ground while you're standing in quicksand

She had MANY ways to defend herself. SHE could have spoken up. Or left. Will Smith's act of violence was more abhorrent than Rock's horrible joke.

This is not a zero sum game. Rock's joke was terrible. Committing assault was worse.

[pnwmom]

37. No, the OP was directed to a different situation entirely.

The judge had a chance to publicly answer her attackers, in the moment. The R Senators disrespected her, but she had a chance to shine.

Jada, on the other hand, hadn't come to the Academy Awards knowing she might have to endure a public insult. She hadn't had a chance to prepare a response. And she had no opportunity, in the moment, to put Rock in his place.

Of course Smith shouldn't have slapped Rock. But Rock's "joke" was probably even more painful to Jada than the slap was to Rock. No one should underestimate the power of words.

[Baltimike]

42. Yes it did.

It showed how a less toxic male could have handled it, for those who want to marginalize violence.

[whathehell]

14. Yes, thank you.

Mocking people with disabilities is nothing but cruel bullying.

[FailureToCommunicate]

107. Of course that's true,

however, alopecia may be an unfortunate condition, but it is not a disability.

[whathehell]

109. Not technically, perhaps.

but for a woman?...It's certainly painful and Jada has spoken of it several times.

[Duncan Grant]

19. Toxic masculinity? Talk about gaslighting!

Last edited Mon Mar 28, 2022, 07:36 PM - Edit history (1)

Will Smith trespassed the stage, assaulted and screamed at a presenter and shocked an international audience. And you think Chris Rock has toxic masculinity? I ain’t buying into that mind f*ck. Serious people understand the gravity of the situation and it rest ever so firmly on Will Smith’s shoulders. He should have been restrained, escorted from the building and arrested — just like any unprivileged schmuck who attacks a presenter on a stage.

[flying_wahini]

21. I'm with you. Chris Rock came out looking like the adult in the room.

Will Smith acted wildly inappropriately and didn’t deserve the applause he received.

[Baltimike]

43. I agree too. Will Smith is who is displaying toxic masculinity. nt

[Duncan Grant]

45. I was impressed with Rock's ability to stay composed and carry on with the show.

And Will Smith’s tearful speech? Wow, classic abuser BS. It’s nauseating to see his violence rationalized and supported.

[calimary]

48. Wholeheartedly agreed! HE'S the one who deserves the big applause.

Chris Rock kept his wits about him, and that's what kept a brief-but-controversial encounter from exploding out of control. HE'S the good guy, here. I just lost all respect for Will Smith last night. GET OVER YOURSELF, dude! Or should we all be bracing for the next time you decide to take umbrage and let your temper run away with you?

[Baltimike]

24. I think you misunderstood my OP. nt

[Duncan Grant]

31. I don't think so and I was responding to post #4. nt

[Baltimike]

111. I saw that. My apologies. nt

[whathehell]

51. "Gas lighting" my ass...

"Serious people" understand that you don't bully people with disabilities..Mr. Rock-- So quick to mock and disrespect women -- -even disabled ones, it seems, will get over it.

[Duncan Grant]

55. Do you know how to discern the difference between right and wrong?

Nothing Will Smith did was correct in response. He screamed and physically attacked a presenter on an international stage. Violence is the last resort of the incompetent (Asimov).

Will Smith: incompetent. Efforts to defend and justify his behavior: incompetence. Efforts to convince people they didn’t see what they saw with their own two eyes: incompetence and gaslighting.

It’s incredible that a wealthy, privileged beyond all measure, entertainer is being held to such a ridiculously low standard of conduct and behavior. This gaslighting should offend your intelligence — as it does mine.

[whathehell]

62. Do you know the meaning of "gaslighting"?

is seems not, as neither you nor the poster first alleging it describe anything that fits its definition.

As to "right and wrong", um, yeah. I know a lot about it, and I don't condone Smith's behavior, but I feel it's at least as understandable as Rock's.

[obamanut2012]

56. Seriously -- wtaf

I expect this on FB, but here? So many people on here are denouncing Rock or something. Will Smith acted like a psychopath. He should have been escorted out and arrested for assault. People excusing this must think assault is fine if someone pisses you off, even at a quasi-work function like the Oscars. This was an industry event, televised globally.

The Smiths are toxic and have been for years.

Chris Rock was the adult, and showed great restraint.

[meadowlander]

93. Both of them do.

Will Smith has the machismo, violent bullshit version and Chris Rock has the "I'm entitled to comment negatively on womens' appearances" version.

Why do you think it has to be one or the other?

[Duncan Grant]

95. Because storming the stage is worse than being a comedian.

Add to that Smith’s assault, screaming expletives, the paucity of accountability…

What we and the international viewers witnessed was criminal assault. It was nauseating and horrendous.

Chris Rock on the other hand, was a presenter, a comic. He was assaulted but managed to remain composed under terrible circumstances. Not only that, he didn’t return the attack physically or verbally. The show went on because Chris Rock saved the day. He rose above Will Smith’s incompetence. It was astounding what he accomplished in that moment before millions of stunned people all over the world.

And that’s why I don’t accommodate false equivalencies saying Smith and Rock are equally at fault — or that they present toxic masculinity equally. The evidence says otherwise.

[meadowlander]

96. I didn't say they were equally at fault. I said they were both displaying toxic masculinity.

One doesn't imply the other.

[BigmanPigman]

44. He has said that he didn't know of her disease.

https://pagesix.com/2022/03/28/chris-rock-reportedly-didnt-know-jada-pinkett-smith-has-alopecia/

[PatrickforB]

71. Yeah, I'm with you on this. Smith has apologized to Rock now, and seems

genuinely contrite. It was a stupid thing for him to do and he may well lose his Oscar over it.

But what about Chris Rock? How come he gets to skate with his toxic joke? What he said was sick, cruel and hurtful to JP Smith. Will shouldn't have slapped him, but still, we ought to be condemning that as well.

[questionseverything]

76. What's so hurtful about being compared to a beautiful woman like demi moore?

1st world problems

[XanaDUer2]

105. I know

Everyone should have such "problems"

[geardaddy]

104. Rock was wrong in this, too n/t

[Joinfortmill]

12. Regarding Judge Jackson: Remember when 'class' mattered? Hope she is confirmed.

[3Hotdogs]

13. Regarding the original post, Ted Cruz has a face I want to punch.

Does that make me immoral and anathema on D.U.?

How may other guys on D.U. would like to punch Ted Cruz?

[Cozmo]

17. The first thing that came to mind when I read your post...

What makes you think it's just guys who would want to punch out cruz? Just sayin'

[3Hotdogs]

18. Aw fucks.

Was I being sexist?

[paleotn]

32. Not inclusive enough. Everyone wants to punch him.

[paleotn]

30. My better half wants to punch him even more than I do.

And she punches pretty good, let me tell ya.

[Baltimike]

25. Fantacizing about punching Ted Cruz and knowing nothing will happen to you if you do

are two different things.

[3Hotdogs]

27. "nothing will happen," ya mean a jury would consider it justified?

[uponit7771]

58. Want to and doing it are two different things

[smb]

59. I Have To Admit, I Would Have Approved Cruz Doing That To Trump For Insulting His Wife nt

[USALiberal]

98. Like to and doing it are different, get it????

[Torchlight]

15. I'm guessing the toxic masculinity was initiated by those insulting Ms. Jackson

If we're going to address toxic masculinity, the root causes, as well as the results, should be identified, examined, measured and from that, a conclusion.

If we focus only on just one of variables and ignore other variables, especially the variables preceding the result, we're really doing nothing more than taking one step forward and two steps back in a grand gesture of sanctimony.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

16. Also, this feels a little "look at this good reasonable white man who knows how to control himself,

not like the scary Black man!" tbh.

[txwhitedove]

23. Gee, had to look up Judge Jackson's husband cause didn't

know he is white and diidn't care. OP is about "masculine toxicity,"

[Baltimike]

26. Thank you. It is. nt

[pnwmom]

65. That is her husband, pictured in the Tweet this thread is about. n/t

[txwhitedove]

69. Yes, and I saw him during the interrogation of his wife. Did not occur to me. Humans

come in all colors and sizes. I have some indigenous blood When asked by a very pale boss from Shelby, TN, why my hands were so brown, I got flustered and just said I didn't know maybe gardening.

[Baltimike]

33. As a minority myself, I will tell you this...

Two things can be true at the same time. One was way out of line & should’ve known better and the other is a man who is clearly on the edge of a breakdown who overreacted. And both were bad looks for Black people. Ok, so that’s actually THREE things. My bad.

[appmanga]

20. Anybody defending Will Smith...

...and his cowardly behavior doesn't get it.

There's worse stuff written about Will Smith and his wife every day of the week. Does he beat up reporters or pundits? If it happened in a restaurant and some rando insults his wife, he should defend her. That's what I would do, and I have no issue with any guy doing the same. But Chris Rock is a comedian, and nothing is, or should be, sacred in comedy or any other art form. The argument could be made Rock was alluding in a way to her being tough in comparing her to that character. Even without that stretch, when you're a celebrity certain things come with the territory, and jokes, even off-color, inappropriate ones, are part of the price of fame.

More than that, to pretend to be such a man, but to slap somebody and run away (or slink away) from someone doing their job is some bitch-ass behavior. If you're tough, stay there while Rock gets his shot at you, which he looked like he was going to do just out of shock. I wish he had told Smith "You didn't like that one? You're going to like this next one a lot less". He didn't even have to end it with a joke, but instead he was intimidated. Would he have hit Ricky Gervais or Jamie Foxx? It was a punk-ass move and he deserves no respect for it.

I've had the misfortune to witness a couple of guys get the taste slapped out of their mouths, but the guys who hit them didn't run away, and didn't jump them at work. They weren't afraid of the other guy taking his shot. They didn't because those guys were the read deal.

Fuck Will Smith.

[EndlessWire]

57. I didn't see Smith running away.

He did the slap and departed. I think it was a bit. At any rate, by leaving he prevented an all out brawl on stage. If he had been truly angered, he would have hit him with his fist. But, he intended no damage, and pulled his punch. I think this was action theater, with an unfortunate public reaction. They are going to ride this puppy until the end.

Did you notice how no one came to the aid of Rock? No one stepped up or even asked him on camera if he was okay. The whole thing was stunning.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

75. Chris shouldn't have insulted his wife and Will shouldn't have slapped him.

Thankfully Chris didn't escalate things by slapping him back. An unfortunate event for both men. I don't get the desire to see Will's head on a platter.

[sop]

28. "Toxic masculinity" is resorting to violence whenever one is disrespected.

[Baltimike]

34. absolutely nt

[Duncan Grant]

60. +1

Absolute clarity, right here.

[BGBD]

81. Is it toxic masculinity

When women do it?

[Emile]

84. +1 spot on!

[Baltimike]

35. I hope you and your wife got settled and everything worked out nt

[Baltimike]

66. I am glad it all worked out in the end. nt

[Mr.Bill]

68. It's been my experience that most women

are not pleased when their man introduces violence into the picture when there are only verbal things going on. Just imagine how bad Chris Rock would have looked and how good Will Smith would have looked if Smith and his wife just got up and walked out. Rock would be doing the apologizing then. I've walked my wife out of more than one public place when someone was being an asshole verbally.

[Traildogbob]

52. Thank you Baltimike

This puts it all into perspective with Class vs Rage to violence. One of the Smith Children, the young man I think, posted, “this is how we handle it in our house”. Curious if that’s how the men in the Smith Home do things? Her Honor’s husband had restraint and class. He could have attacked out of love for his wife, Brown Jackson. But using love as an excuse to beat another human, is why many women stay in relationships that keep them getting beat to hell.
Great post and images Mike.

[EndlessWire]

53. I don't believe it's real.

The whole thing looked like a joke to me. Smith walked up and bitch slapped the joker (I must say, he moved that arm really quick.) He held back, fully in control, and walked away. Then, Rock returned with what people are saying was a perfect retort. Smith shouted out a line containing an epithet, but it was more for the present audience. You couldn't hear a sound in the audience when he repeated the line. I think the whole thing was a bit they were doing. Jada didn't have to know about it in advance.

Unfortunately, it is out of control. It billowed up and engulfed everyone. Now, no one knows what the truth is...except, if it is not a bit, and is a real life reaction to a very sleazy joke against the guy's wife, then it is an unfortunate happenstance. I think the joke could have been taken two different ways. Rock isn't noted for that, however. He is an insultive type of comedian.

I once shaved my entire head out of angst. It was a liberating experience, and I promptly let my hair grow out again. It was a good experience. But, I would not repeat it. I feel that I understand how bad anyone can feel when they lose their hair. Especially males, who have an excellent chance of ending up at least partially bald. If someone spent a career figuring out how to make hair keep growing, I would consider it an excellent application of scientific endeavor. This tiny little detail seems so important.

I'm on Smith's side. As I said, I think it is a bit, but if not, Rock shouldn't have mocked Smith's wife. I think it was a show for her, but I don't think it was worth it.

[whathehell]

70. Excuse me. but what do you mean by " bitch slapped"?

How does it differ from a mere "slap"?..Besides, of course, giving someone the opportunity to use the sexist slur "bitch" ?

You might want to remove the word, as it violates DU rules forbidding slurs based on race AND gender, ethnicity and religion.

[Ziggysmom]

73. It's a verb in the dictionary without reference to gender.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bitch-slap

[EndlessWire]

74. TY. n/t

[whathehell]

79. Riiiigghht..Except that the word, "bitch" means "female dog"

Please..It's a misogynistic slur and everyone knows it..Even your little screen shot uses the pronoun "her" and references women throughout, citing it as an " expression of contempt and dominance".

The word "bitch", especially when used as an actual synonym for "woman", instead of a behavioral critique, is literally dehumanizing.

[EndlessWire]

88. You're being silly.

You are entitled to your feeling, but it wasn't meant as a slur, even though you want it to be.

[Ziggysmom]

97. Guess I prefer the more feminist view of the word. To me it portrays very strong

women who speak their minds and don't take crap from anyone.

I remember reading The Bitch Manifesto by Jo Freeman back in my college days, when feminism was under attack. I loved it. ❤️ ☮️

From The BITCH Manifesto by Jo Freeman, 1968:

"There are many definitions of a bitch. The most complimentary definition is a female dog. It is generally agreed that a Bitch is aggressive, and therefore unfeminine. She may be sexy, but she is never a "true woman."

Bitches are aggressive, assertive, domineering, strong-minded, spiteful, hostile, direct, blunt, candid, obnoxious, hard-headed, vicious, dogmatic, competent, competitive, pushy, loud-mouthed, independent, stubborn, demanding, manipulative, egoistic, driven, achieving, threatening, scary, ambitious, tough, brassy, masculine. A Bitch takes shit from no one. You may not like her, but you cannot ignore her.

Bitches seek their identity strictly through themselves and what they do. They are subjects, not objects. They may have a relationship with a person or organization, but they never marry anyone or anything. The term "bitch" serves the social function of isolating and discrediting a class of people who do not conform to the socially accepted patterns of behavior. The most prominent characteristic of all Bitches is that they rudely violate conceptions of proper sex role behavior. Bitches refuse to serve, honor or obey anyone. Therefore, a Bitch is a threat to the social structures which enslave women and the social values which justify keeping them in their place. Men create a special category for her in which she is accounted at least partially human, but not really a woman. Bitches don't particularly like passive people. Women are trained to be passive and have learned to act that way even when they are not. A Bitch is not very passive and is not comfortable acting that role. Bitches are most comfortable of all only in the company of fellow Bitches. These are her true peers and the only ones with whom she does not have to play some sort of role. Only with other Bitches can a Bitch be truly free."

[whathehell]

106. That narrow interpretation may have

Last edited Tue Mar 29, 2022, 12:39 PM - Edit history (1)

some merit in terms of a woman's SELF identification, but not when coming from the mouth of a male.

I can assure you that when a man addresses you as "bitch", he is not thinking in feminist terms.

[Ziggysmom]

113. True, I see your point 🙂. I cannot think of a similar word that has the same meaning for

men, either. I had a verbally abusive husband many years ago; it gave me a hard shell. But words DO hurt and you are correct that we should refrain from that type of language here at DU. The outside world has more than enough BS to bring us down.

[whathehell]

114. Well, thanks so much for telling me that!

So many "disagreements" here end up in nothing but anger, frustration, and NO mutual understanding..I'm so glad that ours isn't one of them.🙂 If you'd like to talk more, just pm me, and thanks again, Ziggysmom.

[EndlessWire]

77. Just yesterday

I am into dog agility, and just yesterday I was reviewing some performances available on YouTube. In one, the announcers were telling about the dogs, and every single female dog was referred to as a "bitch" by one of the announcers. This was said so many times that I took note.

In particular, I noticed that even during the runs, he would refer to the dog as a "bitch" with rising vocal inflections that to me indicated a real pleasure in legitimately getting to use the word "bitch." It was as if he had a personal problem with someone in his life, but could not say the word outside of this context.

Or, so it seemed. Maybe he was just told to use correct nomenclature, and he was uncomfortable with it. Who knows.

I think that Smith chose to (omit preferred word) ______ because he was in the middle of a mock argument and it was part of the bit.

Better? I have already been in trouble with the moderators last week and choose to be nonconfrontational for at least the rest of this week. This subject isn't worth it, although I question the worth of everything lately.

[whathehell]

80. Can't answer the question, can you?

Nah..I figured you'd pass on that...Unfortunately, for you and your long post, I really don't give a squat what you did yesterday.

[EndlessWire]

91. I tried to be nice to you.

You just don't like it when my terminology got supported by the dictionary. I wish I didn't care about anybody, but unfortunately my make up is to give a shit. Someone must have really hurt you bad.

As far as passing on the question, the question was answered by the dictionary post (thank you again.) You can read, right? There was no need to repost what was already posted. You have mistaken brevity and editing for a lack of conviction. Your hostility precludes any reasonable conversation at this time.

[whathehell]

94. Lol..Who needs you to be "nice" to them?

Hint: Not me, and, no, dear, my question "what (besides the chance to express some gratuitous misogny), is the difference between being 'bitch slapped' and being just "slapped", was NOT answered by you or the screenshot..That was brought out to back up the ludicrous claim that the term isn't sexist, and it failed there too.

Now, go find someone who needs you to be, um, "nice" to
them, while I prepare a comfy spot on my Big I List for you..Buh bye.




.

[lame54]

90. Religion? whathehell

[bigtree]

99. now address bullying

...

[alotus51]

101. Hollywood Trash..

That's all...

[58Sunliner]

102. Toxic masculinity cuts both ways. CR ridiculed a woman for a medical condition. Toxic.

If you watch the full video, you will see him stand back after his joke, and seemingly gloat about the look of dismay on the women's faces. It looked to me like he thought he had just owned the Smiths. Professional jealousy? It seemed that he was using the ridicule of JPS to also get to Will by proxy. No I don't have proof. I am aware he has targeted JPS before. His "joke" was not in the script, not vetted or rehearsed. Ridiculing a woman for a medical condition reeks of misogyny. We should not allow Chris Rock a pass on that bullshit.

[AdamGG]

108. Except the Will Smith incident was staged for publicity

and this is comparing the dignified life of one of the nation's most accomplished jurists to an orchestrated WWE stunt.

You're supposed to be outraged at Will Smith. That's the viral water cooler moment they want. The point is that everyone's talking about the Oscars now and their broadcast ratings have been dropping sharply for years, accentuated more by COVID and the trend of people going to theaters less and the fragmentation of the industry with internet streaming.

Of course Ketanji Brown Jackson is more noble, but i don't think the comparison is with toxic masculinity, it's more between forthright reality and the TMZ'ification of America. Ted Cruz, Lindsey Graham and Josh Hawley were playing to the latter.

[Amishman]

110. This is my take as well, very likely a staged stunt

and a particularly underhanded one at that

[treestar]

112. They think people might watch the Oscars next year

to see what big scandal will happen? Seems the only reason to stage it.