The Two Americas Debating Will Smith and Chris Rock

[DemocratSinceBirth]

.

I was on an overnight flight from Los Angeles to New York City during the Academy Awards, so at first I didn’t see the Will Smith–Chris Rock fiasco that sent America into a complete tizzy. But when I was finally able to turn on my cellphone, I had 653 text messages.

Six hundred and fifty-three.

By now, you’ve probably seen multiple videos and angles of Smith slapping Rock. Right before the comedian presented the Oscar for Best Documentary, Rock joked offhand that he was looking forward to seeing Smith’s wife, Jada Pinkett Smith, in G.I. Jane 2. Rock was referring to Jada’s bald head. The problem with the joke is that Jada has been open about having alopecia, an autoimmune disorder that commonly results in significant hair loss. When the cameras panned to her, her expression showed that she was not at all pleased with Rock’s barb. Moments later, Smith walked onstage and smacked Rock in the face.

While I was on the plane, my group-text threads exploded with a lot of jokes, and a lot of stunned reactions. Most of my 653 texts, I should note, came from Black folks. A lot of them, both men and women, said they at least understood Will Smith’s fierce reaction to Rock’s mockery of his wife, even if they disagreed with how and where Smith showed it.


What has developed since that unforgettable moment at the Oscars is a classic “two Americas” conversation. By that I mean: Black people and white people aren’t necessarily talking about the incident in the same way. That much was evident in the celebrity reaction. Tiffany Haddish, a Black actor and comedian who starred with Jada Pinkett Smith in the blockbuster movie Girls Trip, told People: “When I saw a Black man stand up for his wife, that meant so much to me.” To my eyes, Black commentators were more willing to joke about the incident—perhaps because, as Will Packer, the television and film megaproducer who oversaw the Oscars broadcast, tweeted after the show, “Black people have a defiant spirit of laughter when it comes to dealing with pain because there has been so much of it.”


...

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/two-americas-debating-will-smith-chris-rock-oscars-slap/629407/

Chris shouldn't have disrespected his wife and Will shouldn't have slapped him. What should be the response? Mercy is part and parcel of justice. The social sanctions have been enough for both gentlemen.

[mnhtnbb]

1. In that light, Jada could have defused the entire thing and brought down the house

if she had stood up and taken a GI Jane pose.

[pnwmom]

75. The target of the bad joke was supposed to instantly respond with a clever gesture? n/t

[uponit7771]

2. NO !! This person leaves out the ***FACT*** that WS laughed at the GI Jane Joke ... too.

[pnwmom]

76. He was probably laughing at the idea of his wife being a GI.

The mean part of the joke -- laughing at the women's bald heads, the only thing that links them -- didn't sink in immediately.

[uponit7771]

78. TMZ is reporting Rock had no idea Jada had alopecia

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216543411

[pnwmom]

80. Yeah, right. Chris Rock, the producer of GOOD HAIR, a documentary about

the struggles of Black women with their hair, who interviewed a Black women with alopecia for the film, had no idea that almost half of Black women struggle with hair loss, including 15% who have an immune-related condition specific to Black people.

OF COURSE HE KNEW there was an excellent chance that hair loss was behind why she'd shaved her head. But now he's playing dumb.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160304093239.htm

Survey: Almost half of African-American women have experienced hair loss

American Academy of Dermatology
Summary:
African-American women are prone to hair loss, and new data illustrates the scope of this problem, which often goes undiagnosed. Women who are concerned about losing their hair should consider changing their styling practices and see a dermatologist if they notice any signs of hair loss.

According to Dr. Lenzy, the No. 1 cause of hair loss in African-American women is a condition called central centrifugal cicatricial alopecia (CCCA), a disorder in which inflammation and destruction of hair follicles causes scarring and permanent hair loss. She says this population is also prone to traction alopecia, a type of hair loss caused by styles that pull the hair too tight. In addition to these conditions, she says, African-American women also may be affected by other hair disorders like female pattern baldness.

Dr. Lenzy and other experts believe that genetic predisposition may be a major factor in hair loss among African-American women. Additionally, she says, these women may increase their risk of hair loss by frequently engaging in damaging hair styling practices like braiding, weaves and chemical relaxing. "When hair loss is caused by styling practices, the problem is usually chronic use," she says. "Women who use these styling practices tend to use them repeatedly, and long-term repeated use can result in hair loss."

INVESTIGATING THE ISSUE

Dr. Lenzy partnered with the Black Women's Health Study at Boston University's Slone Epidemiology Center to survey African-American women about their experiences with hair loss. Of the 5,594 women who have completed the survey so far, 47.6 percent reported hair loss on the crown or top of the scalp.

Although hair loss is common among American-American women, Dr. Lenzy says, this problem often goes undiagnosed because patients don't know they should visit a dermatologist for evaluation; the vast majority of survey respondents (81.4 percent) indicated that they had never seen a physician about hair loss. Moreover, while 40.9 percent of respondents reported a level of hair loss consistent with CCCA, only 8.8 percent said a doctor had diagnosed them with this condition.

[uponit7771]

83. So Rock is supposed to know EVERYONE who has alopecia cause he did a black hair documentary?!

REALLY ?!

I had NO FREAKIN IDEA about Jada's alopecia and neither did the 4 black women I speak to weekly in my family.

Again, everyone is NOT supposed to know the color of these peoples draws cause their the 1%

[pnwmom]

85. That's not what I said. I said he had to know alopecia was common.

So he knew that he was taking a chance on hurting her if she did have it.

The joke was more important to him than her feelings.

[uponit7771]

86. The commonality of the condition isn't a factor here its whether or not CR knew Jada had ...

... alopecia and it look like he did NOT know from 3rd hand sources.

and

Lined fades with black women are COMMON hair style.

My mother does and doesn't have anywhere close to alopecia and looks great.

plenty of black women rock lined fades like Jada's hair style, that's why Demi Moore doing similar in 97 was brave to my eyes.

[ripcord]

88. It doesn't matter what Will Smith thought about the "joke"

All that matters is what Jada thought, as soon as Will saw her face he stopped laughing and got pissed because Chris Rock hurt her, it isn't that hard to understand.

[rgbecker]

3. Can't take the time to read every last report about this incident.

Did Chris Rock ever apologize for the Joke? I see Smith did apologize for the slap.

This world could use a lot more apologizing and a lot less escalation of every little misspoke, ill advised verbal assault.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. Chris apologized for insulting Will's wife and Will apologized for slapping him.

The attendant social sanctions have been enough.

[jimfields33]

5. I can't believe people aren't accepting the apologies from both.

It’s clear many in America have never made a mistake in their lives.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. There were people who wanted Will to ask the police to charge him so he could plead guilty to assult

Not every technical violation of the law cries out for the involvement of law enforcement. We certainly don't feel that way about shoplifters. Just return the stuff you took and if it's for the necessities of life I'll help you pay for it.

[pnwmom]

77. Last I heard, the only apology supposedly from Chris had been disavowed by his team. It was fake. n/

[rgbecker]

7. Hey, people are on edge.

We got half the country supporting the idea that elections are just for show and their leaders are telling them they don't count.

Over 700 people are dying everyday from something that is "just like the flu."

A relic from the past is being allowed to run over their neighboring country, killing civilians and destroying billions in infrastructure because they threaten use of nuclear weapons.

The cost of things are increasing at rates unseen in decades with no sign of remedy save an economic recession. 1/2" plywood is selling for $60 a sheet and people are happy to be able to get it at that.

Good time to turn to a little entertainment watching the celebrities fighting it out on live TV. and talk about it in the morning....for a couple of days, until the NEXT THING.

Thanks for this update. Hope they can drop it and shake hands.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. I was at a Ralph's in West Hills.

There was this gentlemen with a full cart running away from a couple of people, presumably employees. He crossed Vanowen Blvd.which Is a pretty busy street. I was surprised they pursued him that far. One of the women watching with me said she would have paid for the food. She didn't say arrest him. As an aside I'm surprised they gave pursuit. I thought they were instructed to let them go and call law enforcement.

[Whiskeytide]

54. Has Rock apologized? Snopes says ...

… that’s a false story started by someone who wrote an apology from Rock and said “that’s what I would have said”, and it went viral as if it was really from Chris Rock.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/chris-rock-will-smith/

Has he since issued an actual apology? I’ve been off the internet all day and could have missed it.

[pnwmom]

82. When did Chris apologize? The only apology I've seen was a fake being passed around on Twitter.

[Dorian Gray]

32. Verbal assault?

Joking about her being in GI Jane 2 is verbal assault?

I understand she feels sensitive about her condition. But verbal assault? Isn't GI Jane a hot badass woman?

ANd Jadą looked badass and hot at the Oscars. I loved her look!

I'm really struggling here to see the verbal assault.

[ecstatic]

96. Jealousy / envy / admiration... If it's fear, why all the imitating?

Why the obsession with all things black? I went to a David Chappelle show many years ago in Georgia and the audience was almost entirely white. I've seen neo nazis listening to rap music.

[Sympthsical]

11. I'm surprised it took 24 hours for this angle to be used as an excuse

Imagine if a white actor was defending his wife and went up there and smacked Rock.

Do we think the same people would be jogging out, "C'mon, guys. We all got mad at him for a day, and isn't that really punishment enough?"

Not in this or any other world.

All this, to defend/excuse a man who is incredibly privileged in ways 99.9% of the population couldn't even imagine.

Won't someone think about Will Smith here? He's kind of the real victim. When you think about it.

I love this line: "The Smiths’ willingness to reveal certain aspects of their personal lives doesn’t mean that they should be subjected to tasteless jokes."

L.O.L. "This couple keeps telling the world completely crazy shit about themselves, and people have the nerve to make jokes about it. The audacity!"

People simping for celebrities who wouldn't spit on them if they were on fire never ever gets old.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. If the social sanctions aren't enough what should be the appropriate punishment?

[Sympthsical]

14. Removal from the Academy

The man literally committed assault on a presenter during a live broadcast in front of millions of people.

And people are actually arguing, "Tch, I frowned at him for it, and isn't that sanction enough?"

Are people serious with this shit?

Once more for the bleachers: Will Smith does not care about you.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. Should Mel Gibson and Roman Polanski be removed from the Academy?

[Zeitghost]

19. Absolutely

n/t

[Sympthsical]

23. Ab.So.Lutely.

I do not want to ever see Roman Polanski applauded. I certainly reject Mel Gibson's "rehabilitation." Oh, his friends like him? Great. They can go be friends with him at a backyard BBQ if they're so keen.

Not having double standards is much simpler than it appears.

[uponit7771]

66. Yep, fuck em and

[sheshe2]

57. Dunno.

Committing verbal assault on a woman is okay?

[Sympthsical]

61. Are you seriously equating a joke with a physically violent act?

They're the same to you? Nothing completely skewed with that perspective?

Saying such a thing out loud in public is certainly a choice.

[sheshe2]

62. A joke?

An autoimmune disease, her shaved head. Not her choice. Next we make jokes about women with cancer that have lost their hair. Their hair. Do you know what that means to a woman to lose her hair? Devastating, debilitating and a point of ridicule. Not funny.

[Sympthsical]

63. You're minimizing violence against women

By categorizing physically striking a person as the same as words, you're diminishing what violence is.

Like I said, it's a choice.

And that whole, "Love makes you do crazy things" bit? The language of the abuser.

So, how much real caring about women is going on in these defenses of Smith's violence?

[sheshe2]

87. I most certainly am not minimizing anything.

Verbal abuse is debilitating. It is done to run you down and make you feel worthless. Trust me I know.

[uponit7771]

68. I don't think Rock goes to jail for his words but Smith goes to jail for his actions. The laws ...

... around the damage of either is pretty clear.

Physical assault is unlawful even though both are dark.

[uponit7771]

65. THIS! 👉🏾👉🏾👉🏾 "People simping for celebrities who wouldn't spit on them if they were on fire"

[Celerity]

72. Words of wisdom.

[uponit7771]

73. TMZ is reporting Rock had no idea Jada had alopecia from a CR friend.

https://www.tmz.com/2022/03/28/chris-rock-will-smith-pada-pinkett-smack-alopecia-oscars/

Then there's this ... the source says Chris had no idea Jada had alopecia and that he "doesn't have a mean bone in his body."

The Smiths are NO DOUBT privileged and think everyone supposed to know what color draws they are wearing on a given day.

I love their art but don't give a damn about their private life and didn't know she had alopecia.

I have aphasia after an accident and my speaking voice changed but if someone told me I sound like Morgan Freeman now I don't think I smack the shit out of them.

I don't do violence cause when humans are involved things can spin out of control quick fast and nasty I just am shocked at even the tacit support for Smith on DU

[Celerity]

79. If true, that blows up these insipid 'poor little helpless, diseased Jada, the victim' posturings

Another thing I see barely mentioned is that Jada may well suffer from self-induced traction alopecia. She has had so many extreme hairstyles, many of them severe press jobs, over the years.


I see people all the time talk about being a 70, 80, 90yo crotchety elderly person, who is short tempered, suffers fools and bullshit lightly due to their very long life exposure to humans and their bollocks.

I think I am there already at the age of 25, smdh.

[uponit7771]

81. WOW 25 ! DU is a case study of pathology of even well meaning people. I'm blown away at even the

... tacit support for Smiths violence on DU when Smith fuckin laughed at the joke himself !!

The common excuses for the laugh is "it was nervous or he was just thinking of the GI part or ..." I mean, twisting themselves in knots to excuse his actions.

Stern is right this is how Trump gets away with his shit; people enabling someone they value lest the need for self reflection.

Rock is set to perform tonight in Boston, just found out.

REALLY interesting

[Celerity]

93. I am not an absolute pacifist

[Celerity]

71. Agree.

People simping for celebrities who wouldn't spit on them if they were on fire never ever gets old.

And it is far more than the simple racial bifurcation the author (as I knew she would) falls back upon, in terms of cleavage lines.

This entire story, from the event itself to the insane amount of ex post facto wailing and gnashing from every conceivable angle is so very tiresome.

The only positive is that many of the usual suspects are once again showing their arses and confirming yet again they almost never fail to have a hot take that is bin-ready.

[catsudon]

16. if this was not the news

people would be talking about venus' nip slip at the Oscars.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. I missed it. What did I miss?

[catsudon]

18. here

https://www.totalprosports.com/2022/03/28/venus-williams-had-an-unfortunate-nipple-slip-during-will-smiths-acceptance-speech-pic/

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. Wow.

[lindysalsagal]

27. I saw that and wondered if it's why they blocked the video with the Oscars logo.

I'm no puritan, but it's not surprising when these flimsy dresses reveal too much. I'd rather see the stars stick with glamour and style and keep their clothes on. I don't need see-through lace and skimpy gimmicks.

[Sneederbunk]

21. One can only imagine the conversation if one of the two participants was white.

[arlyellowdog]

24. I thought you were talking about the other America:

Philly fans. Actually my son’s last time with his father was a Philly game where his Dad got into a fight. Previously, my son had seen his Dad as a smart, cautious environmental lawyer. After his Dad died a few weeks later my son told me about the Philly fight. I just said, “Yeah, it’s a thing. It’s stupid.”

[Dorian Gray]

29. I have a question that I hope someone can answer

Wasn't the whole point of GI Jane that Demi Moore was a Hot, Badass, military hero?

I don't understand how asking if Jada is going to be in GI Jane 2... that is necessarily insulting someone with a disability? (I keep seeing people saying that alopecia is a disability, which I get, but GI Jane is a hot badass military woman who happens to have a shaved head. It has nothing to do with disabilities.)

I'm really trying to determine how this is a huge insult that must be defended.

(Now, I also understand that Jada may not want people to joke about her baldness... and it may hurt her. I'm not questioning her feelings about this.)

Seeing a black man defend his wife is I guess a good thing, but I'm really at a loss about what exactly she's being defended from.

Please help me see what the actual offense here was.

[Mosby]

30. I'm shocked people are still defending/excusing Smith. nt

[brooklynite]

31. And the third America, which isn't paying a minute's attention to this story?

[BlackSkimmer]

91. Hard to ignore it. I've seen it on Morning Joe every morning.

Also CNN every day, also the Today Show, and it’s in every single print media source I use.

[SYFROYH]

33. Rock was doing his job, albeit not well when he told the joke. Smith behaved criminally.

I think Will Smith needs to be banned from the academy and his Oscar revoked. I think it was merciful that Smith was arrested.

[treestar]

35. They were both black and so race is not an issue

That statement about pain - what an excuse! There is no way people should get away with crimes because they are black. There's a line to be drawn for everything. Yes, we get the suffering and the discrimination, but I draw a line that criminal behavior is allowed to make up for that. Most people would, probably most black people too, as that article likely only have anecdotal statements - there wouldn't be a poll as this is not a thing important enough to poll.

[treestar]

40. this struck me as

making an excuse for Smith:

told People: “When I saw a Black man stand up for his wife, that meant so much to me.” To my eyes, Black commentators were more willing to joke about the incident—perhaps because, as Will Packer, the television and film megaproducer who oversaw the Oscars broadcast, tweeted after the show, “Black people have a defiant spirit of laughter when it comes to dealing with pain because there has been so much of it.”

So the pain is supposed to be so great that maybe it's OK for Smith to do that, or something. It seems like race has little to do with it, but somebody always wants to bring it up even if everyone involved is the same race (unless white). Though it is an interesting question that if the comedian had been white, would Smith still do the same thing?

I don't think the millions who saw it were involved. If he had not done this in front of the world, it would still be news probably.

[uponit7771]

69. +1,

[treestar]

89. Will Smith punching up Ted Cruz

for his questions to Will's wife?

Yes, that would be hard to oppose, but again, not about their race.

[Demsrule86]

36. I agree completely. And I have to say I know one shouldn't hit someone...but there is something

noble about coming to the aid of your spouse who is being bullied.

[fishwax]

37. at this point I think some people just enjoy slinging vitriol

I'm not going to pretend to know what was in either one's heart. It's clear that they both made some sort of mistake, but beyond that we don't really know that much. Rock may have had a malicious intent when he told the joke, or he may have simply miscalculated. (I've noted elsewhere that if he were intent on simply being mean, there are plenty of other bald references that he could have made, but instead he chose one that might, from a different slant, reasonably be interpreted as empowering.) Nobody posting on the internet really knows what was in his heart when he said the joke, but there are plenty who are content to sling vitriol.

Will Smith acted like an ass. Most people do so at one time or another, though perhaps not as severely and certainly not as publicly. Some read his acceptance speech and his later apology as crocodile tears or defiantly ego driven or whatever ... I saw his acceptance speech as a genuine attempt to process, in the moment, a situation that he knew he'd handled incredibly poorly. Maybe he did a good job about it, and maybe he didn't. Maybe he was trying and maybe he wasn't. Nobody posting on the internet really knows what was in his heart, but there are plenty who are content to sling vitriol.

You shouldn't make fun of people with alopecia. Chris Rock may not, in fact, be a monster who deliberately made fun of a disability. Slapping Rock was a dangerous and inexcusable overreaction. Will Smith may, indeed, be better than he showed himself to be at that moment. All of those things can be true at once. Other than the first and third, it's unlikely that most of us will ever know for sure.

[treestar]

41. IMO more of a miscalculation

Why be deliberately mean to someone when you are trying to be funny? Maybe Trumpites do that, but CR would not, I would not think. He is a comedian. They are likely always straddling the line of unacceptable comments.

[DenaliDemocrat]

48. 653 texts - lol

THAT is probably the most concerning party of the whole story

[whistler162]

55. You forgot the third group

The ones that don't care that two millionaire "entertainers" got into it at a love fest for entertainers.

[krawhitham]

56. He laughed at the joke

Link to tweet

[Emile]

58. Shortly after that laugh, Will made it all about himself!

[uponit7771]

70. No no no, that's not laughter that was gas or nerves or he was laughing from the last joke or ...

.. some other shit. /sarc

People are simping for the 1% is sickening.

[pnwmom]

84. He laughed at the idea of Jada being a GI. That doesn't mean he was laughing

at the whole joke, based on a 25 year old movie that's dim in most people's minds. When he saw his wife's face, that's when I think the truth finally sank in. The only thing Jada and GI Jane have in common are their shaved heads.

[mvd]

60. I think they were both in the wrong

And with the way the world is going, it was unfortunate to see this at the Oscars. But there are much more important things to think about.

[WarGamer]

64. The author from the Atlantic has never been to a Comedy Club.

[Celerity]

67. +1

[Buckeye_Democrat]

74. "Black people and white people aren't necessarily..."

"... talking about the incident in the same way."

Do you mean like this, Atlantic writer? With the white guy excusing Smith and the black athlete saying it was completely inappropriate... and that he'd whoop Smith's ass in that situation. (And he absolutely would.)

[ecstatic]

95. I don't like broad brushes

Every black person I've talked to says Will Smith looked crazy. Jada made a fool out of him and now he's making an even bigger fool out of himself.

Now a clip has surfaced showing Jada laughing right after Will slapped Chris. She did absolutely nothing to calm him down after his ridiculous, potentially career ending outburst. I'm actually a fan of Will and Jada, and I'm disappointed that they let us down. I did not want to see Will arrested, but I think he should have been removed from the audience, by force if necessary. He normalized violence and ruined the night for everyone, including many black actors and producers like Will Packer, Chris Rock, the list goes on and on.

There's no way for the Oscars to justify their response that night. You don't let an assault take place and do absolutely nothing about it. But maybe that's how we do things now. Insurrection plotters are similarly going about their business as if nothing happened.

[Emile]

100. I saw her laughing her ass off. She just as guilty as Will!

[iemanja]

97. Will Smith resigns from the Academy

https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/celebrity/will-smith-resigns-academy-days-slapping-chris-rock-oscars-rcna22665

[Emile]

99. Boy am I glad I was on the winning debate team! Will Smith resigned!