Ukraine's Best Tank Brigade Has Won The Battle For Chernihiv

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

When a Russian tank army swept southwest from the Russia-Belarus border region into northern Ukraine on the morning of Feb. 24, a single Ukrainian tank brigade stood between it and the eastern suburbs of Kyiv.

The Ukrainian army’s 1st Tank Brigade was outnumbered—not only by the 10 or so battalion tactical groups belonging to the Russian 41st Combined Arms Army, but also adjacent Russian formations.

Incredibly, the 1st Tank Brigade not only halted the larger Russian force in the first few days of Russia’s wider war in Ukraine, it swiftly transitioned to an active defense and, for the next five weeks, protected the city of Chernihiv, 60 miles northeast of Kyiv.

The Russians surrounded and cut off Chernihiv, but the 1st Tank Brigade and an assortment of reserve and territorial units held out. Today, the Ukrainians retook the first of several main roads connecting Kyiv and Chernihiv, lifting a month-long siege and shifting the momentum along this front toward the Ukrainians for the first time since the Russians attacked.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraines-best-tank-brigade-has-won-the-battle-for-chernihiv/ar-AAVJruF

Yes!

[TheRealNorth]

1. The one change in warfare I am taking out of this war...

Is the supremacy of modern, man-held rocket launchers against main battle tanks.

[underpants]

2. That is big.

Absolutely

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

4. When I was in the Army 40+ years ago many were predicting this

[Aristus]

35. The effectiveness of the anti-tank Sagger missile in the 1973 Yom Kippur War

had everyone gabbling about the demise of the tank.

As always, however, the training, morale, and discipline, not to mention the leadership, of the antagonists, are what play the decisive roles in combat.

The Israelis gave the Egyptians who were firing the Saggers at Israeli tanks full marks for bravery, but Egyptian field command was not up to Israel's level, and that proved decisive for an Israeli victory. In tank-to-tank warfare, the Israelis held qualitative supremacy with their British Centurions and American M-60's over the numerically superior Egyptians with their Soviet-made T-55's and T-62's.

[Amishman]

5. I would be hesitant to make that broader assumption

Russia's high armor losses are largely because they are completely failing at combined arms execution. Armor is operating independently of infantry and air support - leaving it absurdly vulnerable.

The biggest revelation available is that the Russians are spectacularly bad with tactics, logistics, and execution.

[IronLionZion]

11. Decades of observing the US military

and the Russians decided not to do what has been proven to work in our invasions.

Sure Iraq and Afghanistan were not smooth occupations for the US, but not nearly as catastrophic as what the Russians are experiencing in trying to invade Ukraine.

[uponit7771]

21. I proffer RA CAN'T perform combined arm execution because MPADs make CAS nearly impossible.

SU-25s along with the Hinds are nearly null and void with today's stinger accuracy.

The stand off of ATGM makes even on foot protection have to go out nearly a mile from armor...

There will have to be better counter measures against these types of weapons future tense.

[LuvLoogie]

30. When all you fight are poor farmers armed with long rifles and 80s era RPGs...

your military might suffice. You might think you're brilliant.

[uponit7771]

36. +1, my friend says similar that RA hasn't been in a modern conventional war since ...

... WWII and the US was in Iraq 1 and Iraq 2 to some degree.

Iraq2 was suuuuuuuuuch and international mistake, I didn't believe 80% of Iraq citze greet us as hero's but I at least thought the 40% left wouldn't make a dent ... they did ... daily.

I'm praying wars of aggression might be over for a generation or two

[JHB]

6. It is something to definitely factor in, but the Russian Army's performance...

...has been such a shitshow that one needs to be careful to learn the actual lessons, not just the flashiest ones.

[uponit7771]

19. True, they're even horrible in the east reduced to a mechanized terrorist organization because they

... can't go door to door and beat Ukr conventionally

[Best_man23]

7. And another confirmation from past lessons learned

Those lessons learned in past battles like Stalingrad, Hue City, and now again across Ukraine. Tanks, when used in an urban environment are vulnerable and can become death traps, especially in the modern era of single operator launched anti-tank weapons.

[oldsoftie]

29. I don't think these ever MADE it to a real urban environment!

[packman]

9. Drones also - also the guts/determination/courage of Ukranian citizens

Also, the end of the tank as a main attack weapon and the rethinking of air support. Ukraine is turning out to be the bloody lab of rethinking war.

[flying rabbit]

47. I think you are right.

Many lessons will (should) be learned from this war.

[uponit7771]

18. THIS !!!! ☝🏾☝🏾☝🏾 include MPAD for short range AA. If MPAD can be made for medium range that's it

... the big expensive shit is going to be obsolete

[jaxexpat]

40. Absolutely changes the whole face of war.

Throw in the drones and you've reversed the 2500 year evolution of warfare technology from mobile, armored shooters and crushers back to a David and Goliath stealth projectile launcher perspective. I suspect mobile surface-to-air rocketry's role will also emerge as an unsung hero in this ongoing tank feast. When a party knows they have no air support, everything that flies is their target. Makes every successfully launched heat-seeker a winner.

[greenjar_01]

48. Correct

Hand-helds have become so effective against tank armor that we will likely see a significant reduction in tanks over the next decades. The other one I'm interested in is the proliferation of small hand-operated video observation drones for close combat and artillery support. Drone maneuver and countermeasures will be a big topic in training overt the next few years.

[TheRealNorth]

51. My guess is that we will see more lightly armored, highly mobile vehicles

That will carry rockets as their anti-tank weapon.

[Jerry2144]

3. The battle tank

Looks like it is going obsolete just like the battleships did.

Too bad War isn’t obsolete

[Aviation Pro]

12. Nope....

....I beg to disagree, brother. We just got too invested in playing hide-and-go-seek with terrorists with SOF over the last 20 years. Armor will always play a decisive role in big war.

[Jerry2144]

16. portable missiles small enough to be carried by a person

will be a big game changer. We had so much invested into battleships, then the carrier, submarines, and destroyers made them obsolete. Even the Molotov Cocktail has proven to be effective against armor. I can easily see that the armor will be relegated to more of a long-range artillery role. Unless you have craploads of tanks to send in. Armor is great against small arms, but missiles, RPGs, and Molotov cocktails represent new challenges.

But then again - how much of Russia's failures are due to the evolving nature of war and how much due to arrogance, corruption/theft, and essentially amateur troops?

[maxrandb]

26. I served on an IOWA Class Battleship in the 1980s

Let me push back a little on the "obsoleteness" thing.

I think if it wasn't for the IOWA Turret explosion, we'd still have a couple Battleships out there.

Not only did we provide second to none Naval Gunfire Support with the 16 inch guns, we also were refitted to carry 32 Tomahawk and 16 Harpoon Missile launchers.

The hull of the IOWA Class was 16 inches of solid steel, except at the torpedo belt and conning tower, where it was 19 inches of solid steel.

There was nothing more survivable than these Battleships, and still nothing short of a carrier that can produce more firepower.

There is a plaque where my ship had taken a direct hit from a Japanese 5 inch gun during the battle of Leyte Gulf. I have seen worse dents from a shopping cart.

[uponit7771]

33. 2 team ASM are not of the realm of possibility?

[WarGamer]

42. The new Russian and Chinese hypersonic ASM's have changed everything

A mach 10 projectile approaching 40' off the water surface can't be detected, seen or shot down.

Just do the math... even a 300kg warhead traveling at Mach 10 packs the punch of... ???

I think it'd split the Iowa in 2, sinking faster than the HMS Hood.

[Celerity]

43. The USS Wisconsin (BB-64) & USS Iowa (BB-61) were the last two battleships on the planet

still on reserve rolls when stricken on 17 March 2006.

USS Wisconsin (BB-64)

[uponit7771]

28. "relegated to more of a long-range artillery role" Which is the ONE ASPECT the RA has done to B+ ...

... level is focus mobile artillery but they have no quick shot and scoot technology with it so counter battery and fixed wing drones were taking them out but not quickly.

Yeah, I don't see combined arms being the same

[LuvLoogie]

38. I think this is anticipated. A few dozen of these running lethal reconnaissance...

in matte black with infrared vision and some creative payloads.

&ab_channel=BostonDynamics

[Aviation Pro]

44. All valid points....

You also have to consider the sophistication of the electronic battlefield as a force multiplier. Apparently, the Russians never got the word and have relied upon maskirovka rather than support to the line units.

[Jerry2144]

45. Right

We seem to agree that War is evolving. It’s too bad it’s not changing back to snowball fights

[uponit7771]

22. I don't know, the stand off of Jav ATGM is a half mile and MPADs are more accurate now than they

... were 40 years ago.

Mobile artillery can ... maybe make a difference ... even that is suspect to drone based spotters and counter battery that can be carried by a single soldier.

[Ex Lurker]

49. Small teans with antitank missiles can hold ground

Mobile offensive warfare will require some kind of armed vehicle. If not the tank, some kind of successor vehicle.

[Kaleva]

50. Tanks are part of a combined arms system

RU is sending in armor without adequate support and the results are predictable . Same thing happened in WWII.

[lagomorph777]

8. Now let them win in the air, too.

Give them anti-missile and anti-aircraft weapons of every size.

[Aviation Pro]

10. When I saw the first pictures of Vova's tank columns, I thought, "Uh-oh, they haven't learned....

...anything from the Cold War." The formations were the classic, "Hey diddle-diddle, straight down the middle;" gun tubes raised straight over the front glacis and looking to shoot ducks; and at no time did I see the tubes deflected over the hulls covering the columns' flanks nor did I see the tank in the rear covering what was behind them. It's no wonder that at first engagement they simply retreated back instead of conducting fire and maneuver toward the contact.

Stupid Russians.

[IronLionZion]

13. I wonder if this is a case of Putin knowing more than the generals

many of the Russian military's mistakes sound as if they've learned nothing over the years, like it came from an aging mobster stuck in a cold war mentality.

[oldsoftie]

32. Putin was an intel specialist & never served in the military;

far as I know. So his mind isn't thinking military strategy & no one will tell him the truth

[Fla Dem]

14. Wow!, Wow! Wow!

Between this and the bombing in Russia last night, the Ukrainians are doing themselves proud. They are fierce and determined warriors.

[The Jungle 1]

34. I had not heard about the bombing. Great news.

[lpbk2713]

15. The Ukranians are defending their homeland and are highly motivated.

The Russians know they are fighting for Putin and the oligarchs
and are not very motivated at all. This makes a lot of difference.

[James48]

17. Big problems ahead.

The big problem ahead is going to be Russia actually learning from its mistakes and becoming a much more dangerous Army. Our guys are always trying to train to become better, but there is nothing like actual experience to learn from mistakes.

I fear the Russian Army more six months from now, with a bunch of newly experienced combat veterans.

[Crowman2009]

20. Well that didn't work out for them in the first world war.

So many similarities being played out here. They aren't very motivated when fighting for a leader with enormous wealth that keethemmin poverty back home.

[uponit7771]

24. absolutely !! There will NO DOUBT be a rethinking of offensives. Their mobile artillery was ....

... effective and so were Russian drones seeing MPADs weren't as effective against them .... yet.

[The Jungle 1]

31. I think it will take longer than 6 months

But your point is spot on.
Not sure they can even fix what is wrong. Corruption is out of control in the russian military. That is hard to fix.

[oldsoftie]

37. Problem with that theory is the Russians will NEVER give autonomy to troops

US/Allied militaries have quad level autonomy pretty much down to individuals. These dictator-led militaries NEVER want to tell anyone below officer level what's going on or give them any knowledge of battle plans. Thats why taking out command & control communications is so important with these types.
A group of a dozen US troops could probably accomplish what it would take 50+ Russians to do simply because they know the objectives. Many captured Russians have said they had no idea they were going Pinot UKR till the DAY it happened.

[IronLionZion]

46. They have experience from Syria, Afghanistan, Georgia, and Crimea

They have resorted to drafting more conscripts. Morale is low. They have a weak supply chain and crushing sanctions. They can't even get food and fuel to their front lines.

I don't see the Russian situation improving in 6 months.

[markpkessinger]

23. I have been stunned by how incompetent the Russian army has been at the ONE thing . . .

. . . military forces are supposed to be expert at managing: logistics!

[uponit7771]

25. The Ukrainians have been B+/A- on tactics though. Its not just the RA incompetence that ...

... played a factor the UA was ready to use anything around them down to DJI drones as spotters for artillery.

UA was VERY VERY disciplined in sticking to support forces also, doesn't look like they took big heavy head on and let them run out of fuel and food first.

I think the Russia bad / Ukr good combo made the Kyiv battle a relatively quick one.

Now the JFO, .. THAT'S going to be a whole other war seeing the Russians are dug in.

[The Jungle 1]

27. Russia saw what we did in Iraq to tanks.

They also saw and know what happened to their air force when we gave Afghanistan stingers.
How could they possibly believe a tank invasion would work.
So did they really miscalculate the Ukraine people that much. The history will be a good read.
The coward bully gots himself a black eye!

[jgmiller]

39. I don't know what shocks me more

That their army learned so little of basic tactics over the years or that they so completely forgot their own history.

The Ukranians are doing to the Russian army exactly what the Russians did to the German army in WW2. The Germans thought a blitzkrieg would work just like it did in Poland and other countries but they didn't take into account the length and vulnerability of supply lines and working so far from home. They also didn't take into account the time of the year and attacked using armor that would get bogged down in mud season and finally they didn't realize that attacking an entrenched defense put up by people who are fighting for their land can make up for smaller resources.

I mean the Ukranians even used an old Stalin plan to flood a river to cut off an entire front. The Russians love going on and on about WW2 and they are right they were brilliant and fearless back then. Clearly though their admiration for that generation is all talk and they forgot every lesson they taught the Germans.

[Warpy]

41. Pitched battles like this are what the Russians thought they'd face

but what has made the Ukrainian counteroffensive is coordinated small groups waging attacks against carefully chosen targets. The Ukrainians have been using a scalpel instead of a bludgeon.

That they met the Russians on the Russians' terms and won is going to have almost as profound and effect as destroying that supply ship in a "safe" harbor did.