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What sinking the Russian flagship means: (Original Post) Tomconroy Apr 2022 OP
Slava Ukraine! onecaliberal Apr 2022 #1
Heroiam Slava! TygrBright Apr 2022 #7
❤️🌻🇺🇦 onecaliberal Apr 2022 #9
Although this will ForgedCrank Apr 2022 #2
Was she in fact sunk? Stinky The Clown Apr 2022 #3
This message was self-deleted by its author WarGamer Apr 2022 #6
Did the Cruiser sink? Chainfire Apr 2022 #4
This message was self-deleted by its author WarGamer Apr 2022 #5
. Crunchy Frog Apr 2022 #8
Yes. They abandoned the ship. That only happens if it's likely to sink. Tomconroy Apr 2022 #11
Evil grin. Igel Apr 2022 #12
Schadenfreude! anamnua Apr 2022 #25
K&R UTUSN Apr 2022 #10
I wonder if this would enable Mariupol air drops. Gore1FL Apr 2022 #13
I don't really know anything but it sounds like Russia Tomconroy Apr 2022 #15
Well, conventionally most of those ships aren't very vulnerable relayerbob Apr 2022 #47
Reports are that it's sending out Morse code distress signals. roamer65 Apr 2022 #14
I see it differently... WarGamer Apr 2022 #16
You have to have air supremacy to invade from the sea. Tomconroy Apr 2022 #17
So? WarGamer Apr 2022 #18
They already tried to take Odessa and failed. Tomconroy Apr 2022 #19
They never made a serious thrust at Odessa... or Kiev?? WarGamer Apr 2022 #21
Aren't you the guy who told me they were going to take Maripoul Tomconroy Apr 2022 #23
as far as we know... WarGamer Apr 2022 #24
Good thing you're an Armchair general. Tomconroy Apr 2022 #26
as are you... as are all of us WarGamer Apr 2022 #27
I'm an Armchair GI. Tomconroy Apr 2022 #29
BTW France24 reporting 1026 Ukrainian Marines have surrendered in Mariupol (according to Russia MOD) WarGamer Apr 2022 #51
Some surrendered. The video is supposed to show about 100. Tomconroy Apr 2022 #52
Going to be difficult to get Azov out... WarGamer Apr 2022 #53
UPDATE 3-Russia says ammunition blast damages flagship of Black Sea fleet - Interfax Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Apr 2022 #20
How many more do they have Johnny2X2X Apr 2022 #22
They have two more of this class. I suspect they have more cruisers than that. Gore1FL Apr 2022 #37
I believe Turkey has closed the straits to the Black Sea so they can't bring in reinforcements. Angleae Apr 2022 #40
Not in the Black Sea krispos42 Apr 2022 #49
+1, uponit7771 Apr 2022 #59
This quote!!!!!!!!!!! LOL Takket Apr 2022 #28
+1!!! kind of embarrassing actually...nt mitch96 Apr 2022 #32
+1 2naSalit Apr 2022 #38
FWIW. Crunchy Frog Apr 2022 #30
It means what honest military planners have known for twenty years or more Strelnikov_ Apr 2022 #31
"Navy's surface fleet of 'attack' ships is idiotic" ahh but we have to keep the mitch96 Apr 2022 #35
I know kids who work at China Lake gaskinite Apr 2022 #41
Yes, but a lot less than a cruiser relayerbob Apr 2022 #43
In shallow waters, maybe krispos42 Apr 2022 #50
Russia has many subs with different capabilities. nt PufPuf23 Apr 2022 #58
+1, uponit7771 Apr 2022 #60
You don't understand Putin iemanja Apr 2022 #33
He's afraid of dying from a germ. He ain't going nuclear. Tomconroy Apr 2022 #36
... Nevilledog Apr 2022 #34
Absolutely beautiful ... Glory to Ukraine!!! 🌻🇺🇦🌻💕 nt Raine Apr 2022 #39
They have other ships with SAMs and certainly have them in Sevastopol relayerbob Apr 2022 #42
I think the TB2 he mentions is an armed drone. Tomconroy Apr 2022 #44
Understood relayerbob Apr 2022 #48
I'm not going to officially post it because it's not confirmed Tomconroy Apr 2022 #54
Glad to hear that. Looking forward to Kherson falling relayerbob Apr 2022 #56
Slava Ukraini! Thank you, Goddess. fierywoman Apr 2022 #45
"impending Ukrainian push out of Kherson" ColinC Apr 2022 #46
There's video out there of an enormous explosion and a Tomconroy Apr 2022 #55
All I know is.. ColinC Apr 2022 #57

ForgedCrank

(1,782 posts)
2. Although this will
Wed Apr 13, 2022, 08:32 PM
Apr 2022

create a reduced capability condition for the Russians, flying in these areas would still be ill advised. The defenses on both sides are pretty solid. That is why the Russians are flying very few missions in the area. The mobile and portable stuff is deadly accurate, and the risk is simply too high. Both sides are likely just continue to lobbing missiles back and forth unless they want to lose equipment and pilots.
Thats my expert military opinion (meant with sarcasm).

Response to Stinky The Clown (Reply #3)

Response to Chainfire (Reply #4)

Gore1FL

(21,151 posts)
13. I wonder if this would enable Mariupol air drops.
Wed Apr 13, 2022, 09:00 PM
Apr 2022

I don't know how much of the city or those defending it are left. I don't know if they could pin point them ell enough without inadvertently resupply the Russian attackers. I have no idea what is plausible there.

I wonder how vulnerable the are ships are to the drones.

 

Tomconroy

(7,611 posts)
15. I don't really know anything but it sounds like Russia
Wed Apr 13, 2022, 09:05 PM
Apr 2022

Will have to move troops to protect Crimea.
If there ever was going to be a Russian assault in the east, and from what I've been reading that may never have been realistic. maybe it's off the table.

relayerbob

(6,551 posts)
47. Well, conventionally most of those ships aren't very vulnerable
Wed Apr 13, 2022, 11:01 PM
Apr 2022

As I say ... conventionally. However, as has been shown, hitting the ammunition on board said ships with a laser gauided projectile can cause their own ordnance to sink rather large ships. That said, the TB2 has to be pretty close, and their surface fleet all have some SAM capability, even if just short range, Stinger-like weapons. But it certainly puts the pressure on. I doubt they are going to get close enough now to be within range of TB2s. Other drones they may have? Who knows

WarGamer

(12,463 posts)
16. I see it differently...
Wed Apr 13, 2022, 09:10 PM
Apr 2022

IMHO, I had thought Russia was going to occupy an area from Mariupol to Kherson, declare "victory" in the war and negotiate something or just walk away and let Z try to push them out.

But now... I think they're going to attempt to take the whole coast including Odessa.

If they believe there's a threat to Black Sea naval forces, they won't allow it.

This sinking is an escalation that will make the war longer and bloodier...

Having said that... it's a nice victory for Ukraine today.

WarGamer

(12,463 posts)
18. So?
Wed Apr 13, 2022, 09:23 PM
Apr 2022

If they take the rest of the coastline they'll just push through Kherson into Odessa.

I don't think anyone planned an amphibious assault to take Odessa.

Re: air supremacy... I read an interesting article the other day, an interview with a UKR pilot. He said something to the effect of "We're losing aircraft daily, they don't make it public, but we are..."

So it's not out of the question for Russia to gain air supremacy.

WarGamer

(12,463 posts)
21. They never made a serious thrust at Odessa... or Kiev??
Wed Apr 13, 2022, 09:28 PM
Apr 2022

We'll look at the situation again in a few months.

WarGamer

(12,463 posts)
24. as far as we know...
Wed Apr 13, 2022, 09:36 PM
Apr 2022

Mariupol has fallen EXCEPT for a factory complex in the East being held by Azov

BTW, I ignore all the Ukraine based news of the war...

I get all my news from Reuters, AlJazeera and France24.

WarGamer

(12,463 posts)
51. BTW France24 reporting 1026 Ukrainian Marines have surrendered in Mariupol (according to Russia MOD)
Thu Apr 14, 2022, 12:00 AM
Apr 2022
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-tells-russia-return-prisoners-if-you-want-top-ally-back-2022-04-12/

Video of POW's at the link...

More than 1,000 Ukrainian marines have surrendered in the port of Mariupol, Russia's defence ministry said on Wednesday of its main strategic target in the eastern Donbas region, which has been reduced to ruins but not yet under Russian control.

WarGamer

(12,463 posts)
53. Going to be difficult to get Azov out...
Thu Apr 14, 2022, 12:08 AM
Apr 2022

They're underground in the Steel Factory...

I assume they'll fight to the death because I don't think the Russians will take them prisoner because of their political ideology.

Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin

(108,157 posts)
20. UPDATE 3-Russia says ammunition blast damages flagship of Black Sea fleet - Interfax
Wed Apr 13, 2022, 09:26 PM
Apr 2022

April 14 (Reuters) - The flagship of Russia's Black Sea fleet, the Moskva missile cruiser, was badly damaged when ammunition on board blew up, Interfax news agency quoted the defence ministry as saying on Thursday.

The blast is yet another military setback for Russia, which has suffered a series of blows since invading Ukraine on Feb. 24 in what Moscow calls a "special military operation" to "denazify" the country.

Interfax said all the crew had been evacuated. It cited the ministry as blaming the blast on a fire and said the cause was being investigated.

A Ukrainian official earlier said the Moskva had been hit by two anti-ship missiles but did not give any evidence. The 12,500 tonne ship usually has a crew of around 500.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-russia-says-ammunition-blast-233515404.html

Angleae

(4,492 posts)
40. I believe Turkey has closed the straits to the Black Sea so they can't bring in reinforcements.
Wed Apr 13, 2022, 10:44 PM
Apr 2022

The remainder of the Black Sea fleet is 2-3 Grigorovich-class frigates and 2 old Krivak-class frigates + smaller vessels and a half-dozen Kilo-class subs.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
49. Not in the Black Sea
Wed Apr 13, 2022, 11:10 PM
Apr 2022

Turkey closed the straights that let Russia access the Black Sea from the Mediterranian and thus the rest of the world's oceans. Whatever they have in the Black Sea and whatever they can build there is all they have for the duration of the war.

This is a fairly big deal!

Takket

(21,611 posts)
28. This quote!!!!!!!!!!! LOL
Wed Apr 13, 2022, 09:41 PM
Apr 2022

@AricToler - You know a war is going well when you lose a fleet's flagship while fighting a country without a navy

Strelnikov_

(7,772 posts)
31. It means what honest military planners have known for twenty years or more
Wed Apr 13, 2022, 09:50 PM
Apr 2022

In the era of relatively inexpensive solid rocket fueled microprocessor guided ASM missiles, anything on the surface of the water has a life expectancy of about 24 hours in a 'real' conflict.

Any talk of expanding the US Navy's surface fleet of 'attack' ships is idiotic. All resources should be poured into subs for attack, the balance into expendable support ships.

For our 'empire building' adventures, un-mothball old ships.

mitch96

(13,924 posts)
35. "Navy's surface fleet of 'attack' ships is idiotic" ahh but we have to keep the
Wed Apr 13, 2022, 09:54 PM
Apr 2022

military industrial complex just a churning away.
m

 

gaskinite

(73 posts)
41. I know kids who work at China Lake
Wed Apr 13, 2022, 10:53 PM
Apr 2022

They are the ones inventing and building these missiles you speak of. They are not cheap.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
50. In shallow waters, maybe
Wed Apr 13, 2022, 11:39 PM
Apr 2022

We still have the logistical problem of having to transport a vast quantities of goods over the ocean in the event of a war. Those ships need to be escorted for weeks at a time against submarine, surface, and air attacks... and that can't be done by shore-based missiles or aircraft. You'd need six fighters or more for every one on patrol over the convoy, as at any given times some fighters will be in transit to or from the convoy, and others will be on the ground being maintained and repaired. Plus a tanker to keep the fighters fueled up as they travel to and then orbit around the convoy. Same problem with patrol anti-submarine and anti-ship aircraft.

You'd need something like an AWACS aircraft, a tanker, a half-dozen air-superiority fighters, and a couple of anti-submarine patrol planes (with limited anti-ship capability) actually escorting and protecting the convoy at any given time, and more planes either en route to relieve them or returning to base. A half-dozen air-superiority fighters can protected the convoy from a small-to-medium-sized air attack, but if there's a saturation attack the couple of dozen missiles carried by the fighters won't be enough. And if you're seriously worried about a serious attack by naval vessels, something like a B-52 or B-1B loaded with dozens of anti-ship missiles should be nearby.

By the time you have enough planes, aircrew, and groundcrew to replace a guided-missile destroyer... you've spent more than the guided-missile destroyer. An Arleigh Burke destroy has 90 vertical launch cells that can hold either a Tomahawk, a Standard surface-to-air missile, an ASROC anti-submarine rocket, or a quad-pack of Sparrow surface-to-air missiles. That's a hell of a lot of firepower.



Yeah, nowadays we can fly in troops fast... we can militarize the entire US passenger fleet iand fly thousands of troops per day per destination airport if needed. But we can't airlift the logistical train that follows those troops. Food, fuel, ammo, vehicles, and other supplies ultimately have to come in by ship, rail, and truck. They're bulky and heavy

And then there's amphibious warfare...

iemanja

(53,054 posts)
33. You don't understand Putin
Wed Apr 13, 2022, 09:51 PM
Apr 2022

He's not going to stop. He'll blow them out of existence to win the war if he has to.

relayerbob

(6,551 posts)
42. They have other ships with SAMs and certainly have them in Sevastopol
Wed Apr 13, 2022, 10:54 PM
Apr 2022

While this is certainly a major loss, and its loss does make flying over many areas much easier and safer, this tweeter is getting a little over-excited.

relayerbob

(6,551 posts)
48. Understood
Wed Apr 13, 2022, 11:04 PM
Apr 2022

I just reacted to the "flank is now wide open" comment. The Russians have lots of anit-air stuff, too, from BUKs to MANPADS and a number of TB2s have been shot down.

 

Tomconroy

(7,611 posts)
54. I'm not going to officially post it because it's not confirmed
Thu Apr 14, 2022, 12:08 AM
Apr 2022

But it looks like Ukraine is trying to take Kherson airport tonight.

ColinC

(8,325 posts)
57. All I know is..
Thu Apr 14, 2022, 03:32 AM
Apr 2022

I've been following isw pretty religiously and the circle and counteroffensive is getting closer and closer to the center of Kherson. But the airport anecdote is also very encouraging...


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