General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhat sinking the Russian flagship means:
Link to tweet
Game, set match for Crimea? Does Ivan have a plan Z?
onecaliberal
(32,887 posts)Слава Україні!, 🇺🇦🌻
TygrBright
(20,763 posts)Героям Слава! 🇺🇦🌻
respectfully,
Bright
onecaliberal
(32,887 posts)ForgedCrank
(1,782 posts)create a reduced capability condition for the Russians, flying in these areas would still be ill advised. The defenses on both sides are pretty solid. That is why the Russians are flying very few missions in the area. The mobile and portable stuff is deadly accurate, and the risk is simply too high. Both sides are likely just continue to lobbing missiles back and forth unless they want to lose equipment and pilots.
Thats my expert military opinion (meant with sarcasm).
Stinky The Clown
(67,817 posts)Response to Stinky The Clown (Reply #3)
WarGamer This message was self-deleted by its author.
Chainfire
(17,608 posts)The last I heard it was hit by a missile but no mention of it sinking.
Response to Chainfire (Reply #4)
WarGamer This message was self-deleted by its author.
Link to tweet
?s=20&t=69Q6_AFdz0JdVkhYxKnKrw
Tomconroy
(7,611 posts)Igel
(35,337 posts)anamnua
(1,119 posts)Gore1FL
(21,151 posts)I don't know how much of the city or those defending it are left. I don't know if they could pin point them ell enough without inadvertently resupply the Russian attackers. I have no idea what is plausible there.
I wonder how vulnerable the are ships are to the drones.
Tomconroy
(7,611 posts)Will have to move troops to protect Crimea.
If there ever was going to be a Russian assault in the east, and from what I've been reading that may never have been realistic. maybe it's off the table.
relayerbob
(6,551 posts)As I say ... conventionally. However, as has been shown, hitting the ammunition on board said ships with a laser gauided projectile can cause their own ordnance to sink rather large ships. That said, the TB2 has to be pretty close, and their surface fleet all have some SAM capability, even if just short range, Stinger-like weapons. But it certainly puts the pressure on. I doubt they are going to get close enough now to be within range of TB2s. Other drones they may have? Who knows
roamer65
(36,747 posts)Slava Ukraini!
WarGamer
(12,463 posts)IMHO, I had thought Russia was going to occupy an area from Mariupol to Kherson, declare "victory" in the war and negotiate something or just walk away and let Z try to push them out.
But now... I think they're going to attempt to take the whole coast including Odessa.
If they believe there's a threat to Black Sea naval forces, they won't allow it.
This sinking is an escalation that will make the war longer and bloodier...
Having said that... it's a nice victory for Ukraine today.
Tomconroy
(7,611 posts)If they take the rest of the coastline they'll just push through Kherson into Odessa.
I don't think anyone planned an amphibious assault to take Odessa.
Re: air supremacy... I read an interesting article the other day, an interview with a UKR pilot. He said something to the effect of "We're losing aircraft daily, they don't make it public, but we are..."
So it's not out of the question for Russia to gain air supremacy.
Tomconroy
(7,611 posts)They have nothing left in the south.
WarGamer
(12,463 posts)We'll look at the situation again in a few months.
Tomconroy
(7,611 posts)In a day or two?
WarGamer
(12,463 posts)Mariupol has fallen EXCEPT for a factory complex in the East being held by Azov
BTW, I ignore all the Ukraine based news of the war...
I get all my news from Reuters, AlJazeera and France24.
Tomconroy
(7,611 posts)WarGamer
(12,463 posts)Tomconroy
(7,611 posts)WarGamer
(12,463 posts)Video of POW's at the link...
More than 1,000 Ukrainian marines have surrendered in the port of Mariupol, Russia's defence ministry said on Wednesday of its main strategic target in the eastern Donbas region, which has been reduced to ruins but not yet under Russian control.
Tomconroy
(7,611 posts)WarGamer
(12,463 posts)They're underground in the Steel Factory...
I assume they'll fight to the death because I don't think the Russians will take them prisoner because of their political ideology.
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(108,157 posts)April 14 (Reuters) - The flagship of Russia's Black Sea fleet, the Moskva missile cruiser, was badly damaged when ammunition on board blew up, Interfax news agency quoted the defence ministry as saying on Thursday.
The blast is yet another military setback for Russia, which has suffered a series of blows since invading Ukraine on Feb. 24 in what Moscow calls a "special military operation" to "denazify" the country.
Interfax said all the crew had been evacuated. It cited the ministry as blaming the blast on a fire and said the cause was being investigated.
A Ukrainian official earlier said the Moskva had been hit by two anti-ship missiles but did not give any evidence. The 12,500 tonne ship usually has a crew of around 500.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-russia-says-ammunition-blast-233515404.html
Johnny2X2X
(19,107 posts)A missile cruiser seems like they might have a couple dozen.
Gore1FL
(21,151 posts)I have no idea of those numbers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slava-class_cruiser
Angleae
(4,492 posts)The remainder of the Black Sea fleet is 2-3 Grigorovich-class frigates and 2 old Krivak-class frigates + smaller vessels and a half-dozen Kilo-class subs.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)Turkey closed the straights that let Russia access the Black Sea from the Mediterranian and thus the rest of the world's oceans. Whatever they have in the Black Sea and whatever they can build there is all they have for the duration of the war.
This is a fairly big deal!
uponit7771
(90,356 posts)Takket
(21,611 posts)@AricToler - You know a war is going well when you lose a fleet's flagship while fighting a country without a navy
mitch96
(13,924 posts)Crunchy Frog
(26,613 posts)Link to tweet
?s=20&t=69Q6_AFdz0JdVkhYxKnKrw
Strelnikov_
(7,772 posts)In the era of relatively inexpensive solid rocket fueled microprocessor guided ASM missiles, anything on the surface of the water has a life expectancy of about 24 hours in a 'real' conflict.
Any talk of expanding the US Navy's surface fleet of 'attack' ships is idiotic. All resources should be poured into subs for attack, the balance into expendable support ships.
For our 'empire building' adventures, un-mothball old ships.
mitch96
(13,924 posts)military industrial complex just a churning away.
m
gaskinite
(73 posts)They are the ones inventing and building these missiles you speak of. They are not cheap.
relayerbob
(6,551 posts)krispos42
(49,445 posts)We still have the logistical problem of having to transport a vast quantities of goods over the ocean in the event of a war. Those ships need to be escorted for weeks at a time against submarine, surface, and air attacks... and that can't be done by shore-based missiles or aircraft. You'd need six fighters or more for every one on patrol over the convoy, as at any given times some fighters will be in transit to or from the convoy, and others will be on the ground being maintained and repaired. Plus a tanker to keep the fighters fueled up as they travel to and then orbit around the convoy. Same problem with patrol anti-submarine and anti-ship aircraft.
You'd need something like an AWACS aircraft, a tanker, a half-dozen air-superiority fighters, and a couple of anti-submarine patrol planes (with limited anti-ship capability) actually escorting and protecting the convoy at any given time, and more planes either en route to relieve them or returning to base. A half-dozen air-superiority fighters can protected the convoy from a small-to-medium-sized air attack, but if there's a saturation attack the couple of dozen missiles carried by the fighters won't be enough. And if you're seriously worried about a serious attack by naval vessels, something like a B-52 or B-1B loaded with dozens of anti-ship missiles should be nearby.
By the time you have enough planes, aircrew, and groundcrew to replace a guided-missile destroyer... you've spent more than the guided-missile destroyer. An Arleigh Burke destroy has 90 vertical launch cells that can hold either a Tomahawk, a Standard surface-to-air missile, an ASROC anti-submarine rocket, or a quad-pack of Sparrow surface-to-air missiles. That's a hell of a lot of firepower.
Yeah, nowadays we can fly in troops fast... we can militarize the entire US passenger fleet iand fly thousands of troops per day per destination airport if needed. But we can't airlift the logistical train that follows those troops. Food, fuel, ammo, vehicles, and other supplies ultimately have to come in by ship, rail, and truck. They're bulky and heavy
And then there's amphibious warfare...
PufPuf23
(8,813 posts)uponit7771
(90,356 posts)iemanja
(53,054 posts)He's not going to stop. He'll blow them out of existence to win the war if he has to.
Tomconroy
(7,611 posts)Nevilledog
(51,183 posts)Russian version
Ukraine version
Raine
(30,540 posts)relayerbob
(6,551 posts)While this is certainly a major loss, and its loss does make flying over many areas much easier and safer, this tweeter is getting a little over-excited.
Tomconroy
(7,611 posts)relayerbob
(6,551 posts)I just reacted to the "flank is now wide open" comment. The Russians have lots of anit-air stuff, too, from BUKs to MANPADS and a number of TB2s have been shot down.
Tomconroy
(7,611 posts)But it looks like Ukraine is trying to take Kherson airport tonight.
relayerbob
(6,551 posts)fierywoman
(7,688 posts)ColinC
(8,325 posts)...how I hope!
Tomconroy
(7,611 posts)firefight tonight at Kherson airport.
ColinC
(8,325 posts)I've been following isw pretty religiously and the circle and counteroffensive is getting closer and closer to the center of Kherson. But the airport anecdote is also very encouraging...
Link to tweet
?s=20&t=bQwsLv-ftI8-xq66RZEmZQ