How Red States Plan to Reach Beyond Their Borders and Outlaw Abortion in America

[RandySF]

Today’s anti-abortion movement has even proposed new laws that prevent people from crossing state lines to terminate a pregnancy. Republicans in Missouri are considering such legislation right now. Under the statute, Missouri’s citizens could sue doctors who perform an abortion on a Missouri resident in a different state—like neighboring Illinois, whose clinics serve countless Missourians. Missouri’s citizens could also sue anyone who facilitated the abortion, including the friend or family member who transported the patient across state lines. Similarly, in 2019, Georgia Republicans passed a sweeping law that appeared to impose criminal penalties on patients who traveled out of state for an abortion. The courts have put that law on hold, but the state may commence enforcement after Roe is overturned.

Is any of this legal? There is no way to say. The Supreme Court has never addressed whether states can bar their residents from traveling to another state to obtain a medical procedure, or punish out-of-state physicians who perform that procedure. When the Supreme Court refused to halt Texas’ S.B. 8 this fall, it signaled to other states that it would not halt creative schemes to nullify Roe. In December, during oral arguments in a case designed to overturn Roe, several justices all but announced that they will let states regulate abortion however they wish.

Jessie Hill, a professor at Case Western Reserve University School of Law, told me that “these sorts of attempts by states to regulate activity beyond their borders seem to directly contradict our most basic understandings about federalism and U.S. citizenship.” But, she added, “states are not always forbidden to regulate in ways that have an extraterritorial effect.” They may “have a strong argument that they are entitled to enforce their laws with respect to their own citizens.”

Here’s where the new goals of the anti-abortion movement matter most. If fetuses are legal “citizens,” then states could argue that they must be protected from out-of-state abortion providers. A red state might order a blue state to extradite an abortion provider (or patient) within its borders, dragging the judiciary into “complex, uncharted territory.” Or a red state could threaten to prosecute any provider who stepped inside its borders. Hill also pointed out that the Constitution also requires states to give “full faith and credit” to the judgments of other states’ courts. So if a Missouri court orders an Illinois doctor to pay damages for terminating a fetus from Missouri, the Illinois courts are, in theory, obligated to make him pay up.



https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/04/abortion-bans-out-of-state-missouri-texas-oklahoma.html?via=rss_socialflow_twitter

[SunSeeker]

1. K & R for exposure.

[Celerity]

5. +1

[Demovictory9]

26. plus 2

[PortTack]

2. OFFS..good luck with that. They wanna play that game, states providing abortions such as Il

Have codified law that protect women’s rights for abortion. A lot stronger argument than the one presented here!

[PlanetBev]

3. I read this about an hour ago

And nearly became unhinged. I hope we can quickly squash these happy ideas in the heads of forced-birthers. Gonna mail my ACLU donation today.

[Crunchy Frog]

4. Blue states need to start passing some aggressive legislation themselves

to protect people within their own borders against this bullshit.

And if the SC says it's okay, then we say that we consider the ruling illegitimate, and will not enforce it within our borders.

[PlanetBev]

9. I read in Politico that some states are doing just that

Washington, Oregon and my own state, California. Hopefully, other states will follow.

This is some scary shit, folks.

[Tree Lady]

20. My state Oregon will take anyone for abortion

And I believe for free. We have enough people donating in our coastal states to make that happen.

Planned Parenthood has been my main charity the last few years.

While we can help with abortion and transportation that doesn't count in time off work and if there are any problems and they go locally they might get charged.

[NullTuples]

24. I was reading through California's protections

at https://www.prochoiceamerica.org/state-law/california/

and it struck me how wonderful our state is.

Then it struck me that the current US Supreme Court could strike down any state's laws just for the fun of it. The one that caught my eye was a case from the 1980's where the State Supreme Court reaffirmed that a minor can get an abortion without parental consent. I could see the Federalist-society controlled US Supreme Court wanting to repeal a number of such state laws.

[roamer65]

10. Make stalking women at abortion clinic a felony.

and start jailing them for it.

[BigOleDummy]

6. Well then....

If this kind of thing is allowed to happen then lets get the blue states cracking to pass similar laws regarding guns.

[smirkymonkey]

16. Funny, I was JUST thinking that. We can play this game too. I have a modest proposal...

Here it is, if we are going to get as radical as the anti-abortion legislators, let's go for it...

Outlaw gun sales or ownership in certain states completely. Offer a $10,000 bounty to any citizen who reports or turns in a gun owner.

Any citizen going across state lines to buy a gun, owns a gun or sells anyone a gun and is found guilty will be given the death penalty even if said citizen is using a gun for protection, hunting or sport.

Sounds ridiculous? Then you aren't a woman, because this is how f**king out of control and insane these abortion laws sound to us.

[Tree Lady]

21. We would have in state civil wars

In Oregon our rural area is full of maga crazies with guns especially close to Idaho. And I know there are areas like that in WA and CA also. Probably why it hasn't been tried before.

I would love to make gun laws better, I think the best way to start is make them just like cars, you have to pass test, have insurance, get license and have it taken away with any problems. And before you get license you have to show a lot of hours at gun range. There are a lot of people killed in homes from people buying guns and not knowing how to use properly. Also by law all guns have to be locked up at all times can't be sitting around house.

Get rid of any loopholes where guns are sold outside of stores.

[NullTuples]

25. Nah, the SCOTUS would just rule for the red states. They've thrown away impartiality

Within the next few months they are expected to force permit-less concealed carry on all 50 states.
See: New York State Rifle & Pistol Association (NYSRPA) v. Corlett

[no_hypocrisy]

7. I predicted this in law school in 1991 when we were studying the Commerce Clause

in the Constitution.

This kind of reminds me of the Fugitive Slave Law.

To make this effective, you'd have to ban OTC pregnancy kits and have all pregnancies registered with The State.

[roamer65]

12. Abortion is taking on a role in politics similar to what slavery did in the 1850's.

Sad, but true.

I said it on here a couple of years back and people got upset. But it is.

There are similarities. Anti-choice is enslaving women.

[Hekate]

17. And you were right. "They" are trying to get abortions registered: is there any other medical ...

…procedure that has to be registered with the state? And yes to registering pregnancies as well. Shades of the Ceauscescu regime: why aren’t you pregnant? God forbid a woman has a miscarriage and needs medical attention for the bleeding.

When I first read some of this crap this year, I was reminded of the Fugitive Slave Law myself. Frying in Hell is too good for these monsters.

[Girard442]

8. Problem is, if SCOTUS goes off the rails...

...anything can become legal. If MO sends raiding parties into IL to abduct abortion clinic staff and blow up the clinic -- it's legal if SCOTUS says it is.

[roamer65]

11. It's bridges back to MO.

Much easier to catch the perps.

[Mr.Bill]

13. If the republicans ever get control of

the presidency and both houses of congress, they will immediately pass a bill making abortion a federal felony, probably punishable by death. They will eliminate the filibuster to get it through the senate and the supreme court will support it.

[BlueWavePsych]

14. United States of Taliban

[geardaddy]

15. Yep, except the photo on the right is ISIS

Either way, it's a good comparison.

[eppur_se_muova]

18. At some point, doesn't turning you over to countless anonymous stalkers constitute ...

"cruel and unusual punishment" ?

[Bettie]

19. I don't think any of these people suing will have

the right to see anyone's medical records.

I doubt a doctor in, say, Illinois will be sharing those records with some dipshit who says they want them to sue a woman and everyone she saw or spoke to on the day she allegedly had an abortion.

Without medical records, they have zero proof that there was even a pregnancy, much less a proven abortion. Miscarriages are incredibly common as well.

I can't imagine, again, an Illinois court forcing a clinic or Dr. to release those records.

But, they'll try, because they are assholes. I'm so tired of this.

The one thing that these laws will do is make women reluctant to seek prenatal care or to seek care if they are experiencing a miscarriage.

[jmowreader]

22. So...let me ask:

Julie lives in A Red State. Julie is single and lives alone. Julie misses a period. Julie knows that, for whatever reason, she either does not want to or cannot have a baby.

Julie takes a home pregnancy test and comes up positive. Julie does not go to her local doctor to confirm the pregnancy or tell anyone she's pregnant. Instead, Julie takes a week off from work, gets in her car, drives to A Blue State and checks into a hotel. The next morning, she takes the bus to Planned Parenthood and has an abortion. Then she drives home.

What steps are the Taliban in Julie's home state going to take to punish her and the doctor for her "sin"? Are they going to be like the East Germans and dig through people's garbage cans looking for used pregnancy tests? (In the DDR there was a division of the Stasi who dug through people's trash looking for packaging from Western-made food items, with the power to arrest anyone they caught eating them.)

[OldBaldy1701E]

23. They will take whatever steps they can get away with.

Now, this is assuming that someone in the red state finds out. And, knowing how humans love to talk... well... the odds are that someone will find out. (Also, there is the other person who was involved with creating that new life. If that person is a rethug, well then, that could be an issue.) Now, is it 'provable'? That depends on whether or not the red state is even going to bother to worry about such a thing as 'proof'. The main thing is this: if Julie goes and gets an abortion knowing that this is the reaction should anyone in there red state find out, why is she going back at all? If I knew that someone was looking to sue me out of existence, not to mention getting me in potential legal trouble as well as placing a target on my back thanks to the piranha pool, I think I would arrange the means to get out of there. (And, yes, I know all the arguments about not being able to afford to just move to another state. If it is that or losing everything including my status as a non-incarcerated person, I think I would find a way. But, that is me I suppose.)