Fetterman's 'moving past covid.'

[bigtree]

...an entirely political position with zero concern for public health.

Sahil Kapur @sahilkapur 2h
“I don’t agree with imposition of the Philadelphia mask mandate. I don’t,” says Pennsylvania Democratic Senate frontrunner @JohnFetterman.

“We have to move past covid. We have to rebuild our business community. We have to get — and keep — our kids back in school,” he says.

Sahil Kapur @sahilkapur 2h
@ConorLambPA, breaking with John Fetterman, offers words of support for the Philadelphia mask mandate.

“Yeah, I mean it’s their right to do it. Again, I think they’re doing it for the right reason. I don’t enjoy it but they did the best they could,” Lamb says.

...moving past Fetterman.

[AZProgressive]

1. I think I will just support the winner of the primary

I haven’t picked a side in this primary.

[bigtree]

3. obviously

...whatever he's doing here, he'll still function as a Democrat if elected.

[gab13by13]

7. Arizona residents don't get to vote in Pa.

unless you are related to Mark meadows.

[AZProgressive]

13. I know

But out of state DUers have strongly supported either of the 2 candidates. Most Pennsylvania DUers clearly favor Fetterman though.

[MerryBlooms]

18. Neither does the OP, but they're sure vested in

Fetterman's defeat. Same with some from Brooklyn. Weird. 🤔

[gab13by13]

22. Not weird, reliving the 2016 Hillary/Bernie primary.

I am pretty sure there are a gang of moderates here who hang out.

[bigtree]

32. can you hear yourself?

...I'm pretty sure I'm not in a 'group of moderates.'

And, '2016?' That's projection, you.

[dsp3000]

48. moderate PA democrat here...

i'll take fetterman over lamb in november. he has alot of energy and he has way more appeal to blue collar voters than lamb does. that's just the reality.

[Hav]

42. What a weird thing to say

as if there's something despicable about being a moderate.
Of course there are moderates here, depending on the definition. I assume that many who were insulted as far left liberals by Repubs during the Bush years would consider themselves pretty moderate when faced with today's extremes.

[betsuni]

44. There were no substantial policy differences between primary candidates in 2016

or 2020. Strategy was a little different, not goals. No matter who the Democratic president would be, same situation.

[Rob H.]

133. For extra fun

pay attention when a positive OP about AOC or The Squad or Bernie gets posted. The same group shows up in minutes to start dumping all over it or trying to derail it. It's predictable as the sunrise.

[mcar]

141. "A gang of moderates?"

Horrors!

Do you mean to tell me there are moderate Democrats here on Democratic Underground? Like (checking stats) most Democrats in the country? Here? On Democratic Underground?

Note that this is not Progressive Underground.

[bigtree]

30. I was leaning toward Lamb, not really invested in anything, just an opinion, but whatever

...what's the actual intent or point in attacking me personally for my political choice?

You don't seem to know shit about me.

[Doc Sportello]

45. For someone who claims they are not invested in anything

Your responses here tell a different story.

[bigtree]

47. apparently you don't think I should have an opinion, or express it here alongside your own. Tough.

...not one word about being 'invested' in something to the responders who you agree with.

Just bullshit innuendo to make whatever point you're making, whatever you're apparently 'invested' in with this line of personal attack.

You didn't find a shrinking violet, and it apparently rankled you so much that you just had to come on here and tell me just how 'invested' I seem to be in my argument.

I mean, surely illiterateness must be the most reliable measure of sincerity.

[Doc Sportello]

50. Thanks for proving my point

One can just read this and say "uh-huh". Thanks again.

[bigtree]

76. you are really into this personal attack

...I have the capacity to make a cogent argument which really seems to rankle you.

Maybe you're looking for someone more vulnerable to your personal attacks. In the meanwhile I'll just make a point of speaking more of my mind to you so you'll understand THIS KIND OF INTERNET BULLYING HAS NO EFFECT ON MY ABILITY TO FULLY EXPRESS MYSELF.

It's just weird.

[Doc Sportello]

78. Sorry no one here has attacked you personally

just pointing out the obvious and your replies confirm my point. Again, thanks. Have a nice day.

[bigtree]

80. "I just commented several times on your motives, but nothing personal"

...weirdness.

Why?

[Dorian Gray]

53. Not me!

I'm in brooklyn and I like Fetterman. (But up to PA to decide.)

[MerryBlooms]

147. I think Fetterman is a good guy. I'm in Oregon, so like

You, and most here, can donate, but that's it. I really don't get some of the daily attacks on him by fellow Democrats, Especially by people not in PA. What's their motive?

At this time, we need to promote every Democrat in every race, whether we personally like them or not. The Last thing Democrats should be doing is tearing down a fellow Democrat or their supporters.

Have a lovely evening. Tonight is my Sunday, work week starts tomorrow. Busy day, which always seems to happen on days off. 🥴

[Hoyt]

2. Like it or not, probably a winning position at this point.

[bigtree]

4. so it's a badge of courage

...inspiring.

[SoonerPride]

8. It's reality.

Vaccinated people are fine.

Time to move on.

[Celerity]

11. +1

[MontanaFarmer]

16. This. Vaccines are available to all

and those of us who are vaccinated can no longer be asked to carry the water for those choosing not to be. Democrats, politically, have to and seem to be understanding where the citizenry is on the subject

[dsc]

25. actually they aren't yet

If you are under 5 years old you can't get vaccinated. We tend to forget these people, but they do exist.

[MontanaFarmer]

40. I didn't say that well, you're right.

But I've not forgotten about them, trust me. I've 2 of them under my roof right now, 4 (approaching 5) and 2.5. Both have had multiple close exposures, we think both were infected last fall, and we're living life with them at this point. 1 is in preschool, 1 in full time day care, and on we go.
Honestb question for you: my daughter turns 5 in mid summer. The pfizer vaccine regimen in children (and adults to a degree) has shown waning immunity over time, and somewhat of a short time at that. Would you give a child that vaccine immediately after they were eligible or wait until conditions (surge in cases, winter, school restarting) to start the clock on effective protection? I ask in the context of only knowing and having available the current shot, not allowing for more/ better which will certainly be coming down the line.

[Dorian Gray]

61. I would talk to their doctor

I was recently eligible for my second booster. I asked my doctor. Her advice to me was: "You can wait to try to time a surge, but it appears to me that a small surge is happening in nYC now. And timing these things never seems to work out for many people."

So I got my booster.

(But I would absolutely talk to your child's pediatrician and not take advice about vaccinating her from me or anybody else on this board as we do not know all of her health factors.)

For what it's worth, I have an 11 year old. She was vaccinated without incident in November/december with Pfizer. She handled both doses well. Mild cold like symptoms for two days after first dose. Zero after second.

[Dorian Gray]

59. As a parent of a child who couldn't get vaccinated until November

I understand the anxiety that those families feel. And I would very much like for the vaccine to be made available to those families that wish to get them as soon as possible.

Having said that, statistically, unvaccinated children under five have almost a zero mortality rate and a very low severe illness rate.

I know that doesn't make a difference to families whose kids have been harmed by covid.

But more children die of the flu, that is true, and to make policy for all of society when vaccines are available is VERY unpopular. People are moving on, whether we like it or not. People in progressive European countries (Denmark, Norway, etc.) do not have the same restrictions in their major cities.

It's been two years. Mandates are not going to win Democrats votes, and we need to move on from them.

Fetterman is right on this one.

[Sympthsical]

122. The risk vs the developmental damage we're doing is unsustainable

By the CDCs own numbers, there have been 1160 Covid-related deaths of people under 18.

That is 0.1% of all Covid deaths in 22% of our population.

We've had more teenagers die from suicide than Covid in the past two years by nearly a factor of ten.

People who "follow the science" tend to use children as a reason for permanent or long-term Covid restrictions. Well, the science says children are at a very, very small level of risk. Not no risk - we will never have no risk. Covid is now going to float around with everything else for the foreseeable future. But extremely low compared to the rest of the population.

I'm not saying you're doing this. But if I had a nickel for every instance of, "But the children . . ." being cited as a major reason why 340 million people need further, long-term restrictions.

Reality has to play a role in our policies.

[bigtree]

138. masking or vaccinations are causing children suicides?

...what an unbelievably false claim.

Most schools are fully open, so I don't get this portrait of children under siege from Covid protections.

There's zero 'reality' in what you posted.

[MerryBlooms]

20. I'm twice boosted, but wear my mask at the pharmacy and

Grocery store. I take care for vulnerable folks. I don't worry for myself, but I am trying to protect my sister and clients.

[uponit7771]

38. +1,

[Hoyt]

15. Did I say it's admirable. He's trying to win a friggin election and I

bet a majority of his constituents feel the same. Might even poach a few GOPer leaders if he makes it to general election.

[gldstwmn]

109. Unless something unforeseen happens he is the winner according to current polls I have seen.

We cannot have Dr. Quack in that seat.

[brewens]

6. Rolling the dice that we won't have the surge that is most likely coming. n/t

[Hoyt]

17. Not many in office who haven't already rolled those dice, and constituents

support it. Even Faucci seems resigned to situation.

The difference, of course, is efficacy of the vaccine.

[SoonerPride]

31. People have been saying we are getting a surge for two months

Last edited Fri Apr 22, 2022, 09:03 AM - Edit history (1)

It ain’t coming.

[gldstwmn]

110. It's already here. But you keep going.

[Demsrule86]

70. If we come out strong for lock down and mandates...we will lose the coming elections.

And given the situation...it is not needed.

[gab13by13]

5. I watched the whole debate,

Fetterman got ambushed, lol, it was so obvious. 3 men on the stage and the moderators asked questions. The moderators asked Fetterman to respond first to the bulk of the questions so that Lamb and the hired gun could take pot shots at Fetterman's answers.

It was pretty obvious and comical that the Democratic establishment wants the moderate to win.

Fetterman did not attack his competition. I expect a poll to be shortly released showing that Lamb is gaining on Fetterman.

I can't wait to vote for Fetterman, if I ever get my absentee ballot. My ballot application was received and processed on February 14th.

[Demsrule86]

54. I don't believe Lamb did particularly well yesterday and I watched the entire thing...

I bet he doesn't gain.

[SoonerPride]

9. This is where the vast majority of the country is

It is the winning position.

Because it happens to also be correct.

[Celerity]

12. yes, see post 10

https://upload.democraticunderground.com/100216616882#post10

[Dorian Gray]

64. I think in our social media

bubbles, we tend not to see this type of sentiment.

People don't care. They are over covid, for better or worse.

I still wear a KN94 mask in supermarkets, church, flying, plays, etc. I went to church in Florida and nobody was masking except for us and two other families. It's what it is. There were a ton of under fives in there, unmasked. The parents have moved on. Is it morally or ethically right?

Mask mandates aren't popular. Insisting upon them will lose voters, especially in a state with a huge rural population like PA.

[Celerity]

116. I see less masks on people than probably 99.9% of people on DU. Also we never really shut down

schools other than some high schools for a brief period in 2020. (Sweden).

To date, since the start of the pandemic in February 2020 (our first case was February 4th, 2020):

Bottom half (youngest) of the population (around 5.1 million people) 130 total deaths (US equivalent would be around 4,250 dead for the youngest 166.5 million)

Total deaths for schoolchildren (age 5-19yo) 14 total deaths, almost all had multiple co-morbidities.

Other than when the initial Omicron wave hit (and it lasted less than month) we have not worn masks since we got our first jabs 15 months ago.

98.4% of deaths were 50yo and over

95.8% were 60yo and older

88.8% were 70yo and older


that all despite 87.5% of all cases (so that vast bulk) being zero to 59 years of age (under 60's only account for 4.2% of the deaths)

we fucked up bad with the old people in the beginning, that is where the high death rates that made us look like a killing field came from

most of the advanced world has caught up and passed us now or is catching up

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

we were first or 2nd highest deaths per million in early mid 2020, now we are 58th and dropping



Denmark at one time in early mid 2020, had a 14 FOLD LESS deaths per million rate (7%)

now they are closing in on having 60% of our rate, and at the current rates of increase, may catch us by sometime in winter 20022/23

That is just staggering (and makes me sad that we fucked up so badly in the beginning, due to our laws (the government in Sweden has far less power and also we are far more open in terms of who can go where) and our population demographics (we have a vastly higher rate of immigrants, and they do not mirror the cultural practices of native Swedes, they got smashed early on too, plus they make up a far higher percentage of healthcare workers than they do in Finland, Norway, and Denmark, and they brought covid into the elder homes and and scattered sites where they were caretakers), 3 things that Norway, Finland, and Denmark did not have to deal with nearly as much)



https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/09f821667ce64bf7be6f9f87457ed9aa

Deaths



Cases

[bigtree]

113. false. It's where the vast majority of republicans are

...and not anywhere near a majority of Americans.

[SoonerPride]

117. 62% of the country oppose mask mandates. (Monmouth polling)

https://www.monmouth.edu/polling-institute/reports/monmouthpoll_us_032822/











National
Shifting Support for Some, But Not All, Covid Mandates
Monday, March 28, 2022

Concerns about illness go down as reported infections go up

West Long Branch, NJ – Support for Covid-19 face-mask and social distancing guidelines has dropped from half of the public to just a third in the past two months as a large majority of Americans endorse the C.D.C. relaxing its recommendations. At the same time, a little under half of the public backs workplace vaccine mandates, a number that has not moved since January. The latest Monmouth (“Mon-muth”) University Poll also finds waning concern about family members becoming ill from the virus at the same time as more people report testing positive for Covid sometime during the pandemic.

More than 3 in 4 Americans (77%) endorse the C.D.C. relaxing its face mask and social distancing recommendations in areas with low Covid rates. Just 34% of the public supports instituting or reinstituting face mask and social distancing guidelines in their state at the current time, which is down significantly from 52% in January. At the same time, support for requiring people to show proof of vaccination in order to work in an office or around people has held steady – 44% now and 43% in January. A majority of Democrats continue to back vaccine (69%) and mask (60%) mandates, while at the same time saying they support the C.D.C. relaxing its Covid guidance (67%).

Regardless of where they stand now, half of the American public (50%) would prefer to see the government continue to adjust Covid guidelines and mandates in response to different variants as they arise. Another 14% want to settle on a consistent set of protocols from this point forward and 34% want to do away with all Covid regulations and mandates. Most Democrats want to maintain flexibility (82%) while most Republicans want to do away with all Covid regulations (67%).

Overall, 73% of Americans agree with the sentiment that “it’s time we accept that Covid is here to stay and we just need to get on with our lives” – which is similar to 70% who felt this way in January. Within this group who want to move on, identical numbers actually prefer adjusting Covid guidelines in response to new variants (42%) as say they want no regulations at all (42%). Another 14% of those who say it is time to get on with life want to choose a consistent set of guidelines.

“We asked the same question about accepting Covid is here to stay two months ago and got a similarly high number who want to get on with life. Our working hypothesis was that many people who support mandates simply wanted consistency in the guidelines. This new data suggests that is not necessarily the case. For some Americans, getting on with life means constantly being on guard and ready to reinstitute restrictions as new situations emerge,” said Patrick Murray, director of the independent Monmouth University Polling Institute.

The number of people who are very concerned about a family member becoming seriously ill from the virus (23%) has dropped to its lowest point since last June (also 23%). This marks a 15-point decrease over the past two months (38% in January). The biggest drop in this concern has occurred among Democrats (30% now compared with 61% two months ago). At the same time, 38% of American adults report having tested positive for Covid (up from 27% in January). Another 14% say they were diagnosed without a test or believe they had the disease at some point during the pandemic.

Vaccine uptake, particularly getting a booster shot, has stalled and the poll finds the rate is unlikely to improve by much. Currently, just under half (48%) of adults report having received a Covid booster dose while one-third (33%) say they are not at all likely to get it.

Ratings for how different groups in the country have been handling the pandemic have ticked up over the past two months, including for President Joe Biden (49% good job, up from 43% in January), federal health agencies (53%, up from 46%), state governors (59%, up from 54%), and the American public (35%, up from 29%).

The Monmouth University Poll was conducted by telephone from March 10 to 14, 2022 with 809 adults in the United States. The question results in this release have a margin of error of +/- 3.5 percentage points. The poll was conducted by the Monmouth University Polling Institute in West Long Branch, NJ.

[bigtree]

119. 75% to 80% of Democrats support them

...whose side are you on?

[SoonerPride]

120. I'm on the winning side.

Democrats can’t only appeal to their base.

If you think Fetterman can win by only having Democrats vote for him, you have not been paying attention to how voting works.

[bigtree]

121. you're giving political fealty to a majority republican position

...today the most disreputable party in our history.

And you're acting like majority Democratic opinion means next to nothing. It's quite stunning.

Besides, difference between opposed and in favor, overall, isn't even close with most favoring masking.

[SoonerPride]

123. The majority opnion.

Just because you disagree with it does not mean that is "the republican position."

That is disingenuous.

It is the majority opinion.

[bigtree]

125. it's not the majority opinion. That's just false

...it's not even close.



https://apnorc.org/projects/support-for-mask-requirements-in-public-persists-although-worries-about-infection-continue-to-decline/

[SoonerPride]

127. You keep posting the same polling

I offered a counter poll:



I guess you can agree to disagree.

[bigtree]

129. a pasted post without citation

...I can easily ignore this.

My poll has a home... https://apnorc.org/projects/support-for-mask-requirements-in-public-persists-although-worries-about-infection-continue-to-decline/

[SoonerPride]

131. I posted the citation above, but if you want it again here it is.

https://www.monmouth.edu/polling-institute/reports/monmouthpoll_us_032822/

Have a nice day.

[bigtree]

134. okay, now I see it

...looks like Monmouth added the phrase, 'at the current time' to their poll.

What about when the infected and hospitalization numbers change in their state? Slippery poll question. imo.

AP's is more straightforward, and almost a month later than Monmouth.

[Celerity]

10. Axios-Ipsos poll: Most Americans say COVID is no longer a crisis

Less than one in 10 Americans now describe COVID-19 as a crisis — with about three in four calling it a manageable problem and one in six saying it's no problem at all — according to the latest instalment of the Axios/Ipsos Coronavirus Index.

https://www.axios.com/axios-ipsos-poll-most-americans-say-covid-is-no-longer-a-crisis-6604f7d2-a476-48eb-8e2d-9cb94c425159.html



https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/axios-ipsos-coronavirus-index

Why it matters: These sentiments — and the public's growing desire to be done with mask mandates and other restrictions — raise significant challenges for public health officials in managing new surges, and could create real political headwinds ahead of the midterms.

Between the lines: Democrats were five times as likely as Republicans to say COVID-19 is a crisis (16% to 3%). Meanwhile, Republicans were 10 times as likely as Democrats to say COVID-19 is not a problem (31% to 3%). Here's another way to look at the overall numbers: About twice as large a share of Americans said COVID-19 is "not a problem at all" (17%) than said it is "a serious crisis" (9%).

The big picture: The latest wave of our national survey actually found a slight uptick in people's perceptions of the risks of certain activities, including flying, attending sports events and returning to work. Yet it shows the highest share of Americans visiting friends and family members outside the home — and the lowest rate of social distancing — since the early part of last summer.

Just half of respondents now support schools requiring students, teachers and administrators to wear masks, down from seven in 10 at the start of the school year. The number of respondents who said their employers are requiring them to wear masks dropped by nearly half over the past month, from 39% to 22%. 37% of respondents said they've already returned to their normal, pre-COVID lives, a new survey high.

snip

[Hugin]

14. Epidemiology by poll.

Interesting concept. They should try it with taxes.

[Celerity]

19. I was only addressing the political aspects (& yes, lol, taxes for the billionaire class addressed

via poll would not be a bad thing IMHO, but alas, that is not the way it works)

[Walleye]

21. I don't know, "rebuild our businesses, get our kids back in school"?

Businesses are thriving and kids are all in school. They were talking about masks. Sounds a bit like he is using old talking points

[gab13by13]

23. Philadelphia just revoked its indoor mask mandate,

so it looks like Fetterman was right.

[Walleye]

24. I'm sorry. I am so tired of these stupid mask arguments

[Celerity]

27. Biden nailed it

Biden says Americans should decide for themselves if they want to wear masks on public transportation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/19/us/politics/biden-masks-public-transportation.html

WASHINGTON — President Biden said on Tuesday that Americans should decide for themselves whether to wear masks, undercutting efforts by his administration to urge Americans to keep wearing face coverings on airplanes, trains and buses even after a federal judge struck down a nationwide mask mandate on public transport.

The decision to wear a mask is “up to them,” Mr. Biden told reporters during a trip to New Hampshire to promote infrastructure spending. The Biden administration intends to appeal the ruling, if the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention decides that extending the measure is necessary.

The patchwork of messaging contributed to confusion less than 24 hours after the ruling was handed down. The president, caught somewhere between politics and science, left it up to Americans to make their own choices. His press secretary urged Americans to follow existing health guidance, because that is what the president would be doing. And Dr. Ashish K. Jha, the administration’s coronavirus response coordinator, said on Twitter that he was disappointed in the ruling and that he, for one, would still wear masks on planes.

A wave of federal agencies, city transit authorities and private companies said that they would no longer require travelers to wear masks after a federal judge appointed by former President Donald J. Trump voided a mandate on Monday that had been in place since February of last year. Just days earlier, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention had extended the mandate through May 3 to assess the state of the pandemic.

snip

[bigtree]

35. opposite of what Fetterman is saying here

...second guessing Philadelphia's prerogative in deciding to instate or rescind an indoor mask mandate.

from your article:

“Public health decisions shouldn’t be made by the courts, they should be made by public health experts,” Ms. Psaki told reporters.

She should have added, 'public health decisions shouldn't be made by politicians.'

[Celerity]

36. Fetterman is following the science and the political climate. Philadelphia just ended the mandate

so it looks like Fetterman was shown to be correct across the board.

The key to political power is to get elected first.

Our candidates adopting some of the most strident, doctrinaire stances espoused by a minority here when it comes to Covid would end with our Party in the electoral gutter, and that includes far beyond just Pennsylvania.

[bigtree]

37. no, Fetterman is second guessing the science Philadelphia officials relied on

...he didn't have access to their experts they used to make their determination, and he wasn't making a point about the science.

Fetterman isn't citing infection rates or hospitalizations, he's making a blunt political point. But this is more than just a political decision.

Think about it. He's signaling his support for a political movement to not only abandon basic protections, but actually prevent responsible officials and businesses from taking appropriate action in response to health incidents and concerns.

That's what I hear in this call of his to 'move past' covid, in opposing the mask mandate. It's basically a call to ignore the vulnerable among us in some sort of survival of the fittest agenda where protecting our citizens takes a back seat to whatever Fetterman says he wants do with our money if elected.

The 'key' (for most Americans) is to get this virus under control, not advantage our politics off of ignoring it.

from the AP:

When the city announced April 11 that the mandate was coming back, the health commissioner, Dr. Cheryl Bettigole, said it was necessary to forestall a potential new wave driven by an omicron subvariant. She said Philadelphia had crossed the threshold of rising cases at which the city’s guidelines call for people to wear masks indoors.

“If we fail to act now, knowing that every previous wave of infections has been followed by a wave of hospitalizations, and then a wave of deaths, it will be too late for many of our residents,” Bettigole said at the time.

Cases and hospitalizations continued to rise at least through Monday, when the health department reported 82 patients in the hospital with COVID-19 - up nearly 80% from a week earlier - with confirmed cases up 58% over that same span to 224 per day.

Shortly before news broke that the mandate was ending, the issue came up during Thursday night's debate between the three leading Democratic candidates

[Demsrule86]

66. Philadelphia just revoked the mask thing.

[bigtree]

77. but Fetterman spoke without regard to anything but his politics

...before the state had made that decision, which I'm sure was based on more than the desire to 'move past' Covid.

[Demsrule86]

87. And...it has been all over that mask mandates are going away...we need to win this seat and

since Phili has since changed their mind, what difference does it make? I wear a mask as I discovered it protects against the flu and colds...but we are not going to have mandates at this time. And to run on it as unpopular as it is would be suicide. Representative Lamb was foolish to say he agree with the Phili mandate. It will hurt him. And just in case he is the nominee, I want him electable...I do believe it is unlikely though.

[bigtree]

51. he made his statement with nothing but the previous order at his disposal

...he didn't make a reasoned judgment, he made a political one.

It should be obvious, on the face of his remark, that he hadn't consulted medical officials or anyone actually in a position to make that determination. He made a blunt political statement, which defenders are either justifying by polling, or like you, using the rescinding of the order as proof he was right.

But Fetterman didn't say a word about the science. He just made a politically calculated statement which would translate into him, as potential senator, basically putting the judgements of scientists and others with expertise to make those decisions behind whatever else he wants to invest our tax dollars in, or more damagingly, jettisoning science in favor of some political goal, as he looks to be doing here - as others defending him are encouraging.

It's just coincidence that the state pulled back their mandate. What Fetterman is saying here is that he doesn't intend to mandate protections anymore. He's 'moved past' mandating basic protections, opting to make a political choice to abandon protections against infecting others, to the detriment of the most vulnerable among us.

Claiming he followed science is an insult to anyone who can read his remark, which was void of anything to do with science and all about politics, like the majority of your own defenses on this thread.

You can't credibly defend him by what Pa. just decided, because Fetterman's statement last night was not only in opposition to Pa. officials' reliance on the science of covid, but made before they acted in defiance of their previous decision. It was arbitrary, and threatened the prerogative of Pa. officials to make that choice without regard to political interests.

[Demsrule86]

56. Running on requiring masks...is a loser. I expect Lamb just lost the primary with that one.

And certainly, it is a loser in the general.

[bigtree]

58. no one is running on requiring masks

...they just aren't.

[Demsrule86]

74. Both Kenyetta and Lamb supported requiring masks.

Fetterman said he is against mask mandates. In the post.

"@ConorLambPA, breaking with John Fetterman, offers words of support for the Philadelphia mask mandate."

[bigtree]

79. that's just a distortion. They favor mandates when the science supports it

...not because of the politics, just like Pa. made it's decision.

Fetterman disregarded their earlier decision which was based on the rising numbers of infections and hospitalizations in the state and just arbitraily declared himself finished with prioritizing covid protections.

[Demsrule86]

88. No, that was a direct quote from Lamb...in the OP. He said he supported the Phili mandate.

[bigtree]

90. when appropriate and supported by science, by the experts

...get it right.

[Demsrule86]

107. Regardless...it is a loser in PA.

[bigtree]

114. no, not regardless

...in spite of.

[Demsrule86]

144. We have to win elections. And there is no will in the federal government nor state government

mandatory masking.

[Celerity]

155. Kenyatta was against the mandate continuing too, only Lamb supported it

cheers

[Demsrule86]

71. You have to live in the rustbelt to understand...business is not thriving in parts of the rustbelt.

Job, particularly manufacturing jobs are the most important thing here. Fetterman wants to make the rustbelt the capital of manufacturing green energy technology...not allowing it to go to China or anywhere abroad...that is a very popular sentiment.

[bigtree]

91. business may well want to abandon protections

...workers and consumers, not so much

[Demsrule86]

106. We can't win PA or Ohio with Democratic votes alone...we have never held majorities in the

Democratic Party without a big tent. This issue is a loser for the midterm.

[bigtree]

118. so by all means, sacrifice public health to appeal to some neanderthal there

...this isn't Democratic thinking. We used to care about people more than politics, especially in a national health crisis.

Does big tent include all abominations, or just this negligence? Where does the appeasement end?

[JI7]

26. He is saying what he needs to in order to win the election. This seat is very important for us

[Celerity]

29. Philadelphia now apparently agrees: Philadelphia to end mask mandate, days after reinstating it

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216617017

[bigtree]

33. this is a life and death decision

...but people like Fetterman insist it's merely a political question.

We used to value leaders who stood up for what's right and won by their leadership. I can't think of a more important issue to be honest and forceful about. A candidate has to advocate placing vulnerable people at risk to win? Where does that end? Do you think you'll ever be at the vulnerable point of that political capitulation?

I think standing against a school business or district which decides to make masking mandatory for health reasons is an unforgivable breach of the trust we're supposed to invest in these politicians and candidates.

That's me. I don't sacrifice people to politics, and I don't know why anyone would expect me to understand people who do.

[Dorian Gray]

67. nobody is sacrificing anybody

people can still wear masks. Nobody is being forced not to wear an N95 mask!

One way masking works if you have a good mask.

Whether you think it's morally right or wrong position doesn't matter at this point. It's where the bulk of the WORLD is right now.

[bigtree]

85. wow

"Whether you think it's morally right or wrong position doesn't matter at this point. It's where the bulk of the WORLD is right now."

You really mean if I'm right or if I'm wrong, if we do the right thing, or the wrong thing. What I believe alone won't stop a virus.

But let me provide my own citation to support my belief:

FARGO, N.D. (AP) — A majority of people in the United States continue to support a mask requirement for people traveling on airplanes and other shared transportation, a poll finds. A ruling by a federal judge has put the government’s transportation mask mandate on hold.

The poll shows a wide partisan divide on the issue. Among Democrats, 80% favor and just 5% oppose the requirement. Among Republicans, 45% are opposed compared with 33% in favor, with 22% saying neither.
https://www.thedailytimes.com/news/nation_world/most-people-in-us-want-masks-for-travelers-ap-norc-poll/article_3eb696a7-bf53-55f4-b6e2-82b27e285995.html


April 20, 2022

A majority of Americans support mask requirements for people traveling on airplanes, trains, and other types of public transportation, even as a federal judge in Florida on Monday voided the national mask mandate covering airlines and other public transportation. The public is also more likely to favor than oppose requiring the public to wear face masks when they are attending crowded public events and requiring workers who interact with the public to mask.

Fifty-six percent of Americans favor requiring the public wearing masks on planes, trains, buses, and other means of public transportation, compared with 24% who oppose and 20% who don’t have an opinion about the requirement. Americans are also more likely to favor than oppose requiring people at crowded public events and workers who interreact with the public to wear face masks.





So are opponents complaining about the politics giving fealty to republican opinion, or are they giving heed to Democratic opinion?

[Dorian Gray]

148. They're giving heed to reality

people are exhausted.

I took a plane last week and this week. There wasn't much difference in mask wearing on the planes, despite the change in rules. On both planes, there were a number of people who had their mask down the entire time, eating and drinking.

The only difference was that those people on the second flight never had one hanging under their chin.

I will continue to mask in crowds bc I think it's the safest thing to do.

But the mandates don't make a difference.

In NYC it's still mandated on MTA. Fewer and fewer people are wearing them and there is no enforcement.

It's reality.

I keep my mask on. But there are people who won't, and it's becoming less and less popular.

And in suburbia, very few people are wearing them. Not even liberal leaning people in those places. Kids are going to school maskless. People are going to church maskless.

I am not one of them. But it's reality.

[MerryBlooms]

150. I wear my mask in all

Enclosed public spaces, even though I'm twice boosted. There is no mandate. I mask to protect my sister and my clients, who are high risk. I am now often the only person masked,no one gives me crap, doors are still held open for me and a really nice guy put my groceries in my car today. He wasn't masked, but I was.

I don't see locking down like China, anytime soon here in the US. We may have isolated masking mandates... But unless something severe and devastating occurs, widespread mask mandate nor lockdown will happen.

[Dorian Gray]

151. I agree with this

I think wearing masks is great. I've found the best masks for me are BOTN KF94. They're comfortable and got me through a long ass plane trip (included sitting on tarmac for hours) on Monday. (The day they announced mask mandate was dropped on planes.)

[Demsrule86]

57. This indicates political savvy...now if Lamb were the candidate, the GOP would be making ads

saying Lamb wants lockdown for covid...very unpopular.

[bigtree]

86. more Democrats support masking, in huge numbers

...more republicans oppose.



https://apnorc.org/projects/support-for-mask-requirements-in-public-persists-although-worries-about-infection-continue-to-decline/

...whose politics are you giving fealty to?

[Zeitghost]

99. And yet

When I'm in public, even in very blue areas, I don't see anywhere near those levels of mask usage once mandates were removed. 75%-80% of Dems might say they want masks, but their actions don't seem to be matching their words in my experience.

[bigtree]

101. anecdotal vs. polling

...I'm going to go with polls showing 75-80% of Democrats in favor of masking when appropriate.

[Zeitghost]

102. Because polling has a history of accuracy...

n/t

[bigtree]

112. and internet chatter is so reliable

[Zeitghost]

135. I'm basing my opinion

On my own observations around California, not internet chatter.

I guess Dems in other locations might act differently, but from reports here on DU, that doesn't appear to be the case. If 70%-80% of us were masking regularly, we would see much higher rates in general in public, but that is not my experience and it does not appear to be the experience of many others.

[bigtree]

136. I going to be forgivien if I don't think the personal observations of one person is determinate

...of anything more than their opinion.

[Zeitghost]

140. Which is why I pay attention to what others are posting

You can believe the single poll you found to back you views and you can likely go find a few others. But real life experience tells me that very limited poll, which are unreliable to begin with, is not an accurate description of reality.

[AZProgressive]

111. People are less likely to wear them if they see fewer people wearing them

Humans don’t like to stand out. I feel uncomfortable if I’m the only one wearing a mask at a store but I do what the CDC recommends and I want to protect others such as the vulnerable as well as myself.

[Yavin4]

28. Dems have very little political capital to work with

Do we really want to die on the hill of fighting covid forever when there are vaccines, boosters, and Paxlovid, a therapeutic readily available?

Fetterman is 100% right. Time to stop living in total fear of a manageable virus and get back to the hard work of saving our democracy.

"Demand for Pfizer's antiviral pill Paxlovid appears to be lagging"
https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/video/demand-for-pfizers-antiviral-pill-paxlovid-appears-to-be-lagging/#x

[bigtree]

34. where does that political capitulation end?

...the virus doesn't go away if you turn your back on it.

Masking is a courtesy as much as it's a protection - an obligation is many circumstances - but the proposal is that we just abandon that simple prevention in favor of some fantasy notion that vaccines, boosters, and Paxlovid are always going to be enough to protect the vulnerable among us.

Right now my state is experiencing a rise in infections with a steady trickle of deaths and hospitalizations that can easily turn into a flood of patients and casualties. This recent 'surge' is mostly from self-inflicted gatherings over Spring break. In fact, much of the 'seasonal' aspect of Covid centers around uncontrolled holiday gatherings.

We have people who are actively fighting basic protections who are keeping the virus in circulation, even increasing the spread, and people like Fetterman are promoting the irresponsibility that ignoring the virus will allow the country to move past it.

It's political nonsense, but it's also dangerous and irresponsible rhetoric when translated into policies that he would be tasked to decide in office. This deaf, dumb, and blind approach is something I've come to expect from republicans - not Democratic candidates for the Senate.

[Yavin4]

49. The virus is never going away even Fauci says this.

There's nothing that we can do to get rid of the virus. Covid zero is not realistic.

Masks do not prevent the spread. Please see the case data out of S.Korea, Germany, Australia, China, and Vietnam. All of these nations are leading the world in new cases for the past month or so even though masking and other NPI measures are still in place. Dismissing vaccines, boosters, and therapeutics in favor of a worthless protection measure does far more harm than good.

Forcing masks on people will lead to more Republicans being elected.

[bigtree]

81. forcing people into unsafe workplaces and public spaces in the midst of rising infections

...without considering requiring protections is just negligent and morally wrong.

But, go on and tell me about the politics.

[Demsrule86]

60. You have to win or it doesn't matter. And Connor Lamb voted with Trump 68% of the time during

his first year in office...IMHO, he would vote with Manchin and Sinema. While we need both seats...we don't need a third vote against Biden's policy. Fetterman says the most important thing about his candidacy is that he will vote as a loyal Democrat.

[Deminpenn]

39. Gov Wolf has said the state's covid strategy

is for Pennsylvanians to be vaccinated. He has no plans to impose another mask mandate or shutdown. Pennsylvanians spoke when we approved a constitutional amendment limiting the governor's emergency declaration to 21 days. Subsequent emergencies must be approved by the state legislature.

People are not only ready to move on, but are and have been moving on. Lt Gov Fetterman is in step with Gov Wolf and the majority of Pennsylvanians.

Agree with Biden that people can decide for themselves if they want to wear a mask. Businesses, hospitals, etc can also decide for themselves if they want to require masks for customers, employees or both.

Also, iirc, heard on the local news a day or so ago, that Allegheny county reported 0 new covid hospitalizations for the first time in a couple of years. https://www.post-gazette.com/news/health/2022/04/21/allegheny-county-covid-hospitalizations-zero/stories/202204210131

[bigtree]

46. this is actually Fetterman substituting Pa. officials' judgment for his own

...he wasn't citing numbers, he was making a political decision to stop the mask mandate, just like the Pa. legislature would. It's really the worst of times for anyone in that state (and others) expecting scientists and medical officials would ultimately be the ones keeping us safe.

Biden says health officials should decide things like mask mandates. I don't think he endorses making political decisions on covid protections based on what might get people elected, but that's where Pa. and other states are going.

If there is another major spread of infectious disease, or if Covid reignites, we'll have to wade through this political mud to make any serious collective effort at eradication or control. Making defenses against covid a political choice is a surrender to demagogues and opportunistic liars, and inevitably will leave the vulnerable among us without protection and without any expectation that the government will make an effort to keep them safe.

This is what happened with AIDS, and that negligence is now being willingly codified by this acquiescence by some to a dubious political expediency.

[Demsrule86]

62. The governor is not supporting a mask mandate.

[bigtree]

82. do want to start a thread on the governor?

[Demsrule86]

89. He sets policy for the state...and Fetterman is Lieutenant Governor.

[bigtree]

93. who wants to be senator

...context.

[Demsrule86]

104. And?

[peggysue2]

73. The reality is we'll all be moving past Covid and its restrictions

We still have the right to wear a mask in public if that's our choice. It's not as if we've had 100% compliance even during the worst of it. At this point the numbers are going down to a manageable level in the country overall. For the immunocompromised and very young children, care and caution still need to be taken, and if hot spots arise then preventative health measures could be taken to contain and limit exposure.

Is there risk? Of course. There's risk every day of our lives from this virus or any other ugly infection that rumbles into our midst. My husband is just getting over a nasty stomach flu. One of our grandkids had the same symptoms a week ago; his mom insisted he'd been food poisoned. Then my husband got it. I did not.

Is what it is.

As for Covid? We're both fully vaccinated and boosted. We'll be getting our second booster next week. As for masks? We're wearing them to doctor visits and at the dentist. Beyond that, no, although I would say that when we visit my brother-in-law (he just had a lung transplant), we'll be masked up.

It's a personal choice now. I agree with Governor Wolf. The strategy for PA and nationwide is get the damn vaccine to protect yourself and others, then mask when you decide it's appropriate (on a plane, for instance) and/or where you can protect vulnerable family, friends and members of your community.

I carry a mask whenever I'm out and about. If someone were to ask me to mask, I would without hesitation. For those who would refuse? Well, they're likely the same people who insisted the virus was a hoax.

[nini]

41. I don't trust this guy

Something about him just sets off my distrust vibes.

[Demsrule86]

63. Really, well I have met the guy and he is a great guy...Connor Lamb if he were to be our candidate

will lose just like McGinty lost. Fetterman can bring the seat home...and he is a progressive and wants to end the filibuster and get needed Democratic policy enacted.

[themaguffin]

72. I do.

[Emile]

75. His looks? I trust him and he is smart as hell!

[Demsrule86]

94. He went to Harvard you know...and left big money insurance when his best friend died in an

auto accident...was teaching in Braddock when two of his kids were murdered so he ran for office...after he brought the industry back and managed to get other policies...and one board member who was stealing from Braddock was stopped...it was 5 1/2 years with no murders. The tattoos on his arm are folks names who died Braddock

[MerryBlooms]

149. "Vibes"? I'm guessing you vote...

You research candidates and vote on more than just your "vibes"? From what I've read DU, I doubt PA voters are voting on "vibes".😶‍🌫️

[nini]

156. I didn't say I wouldn't vote for him under the circumstances did I?

I have a right to my gut feelings on things. If I'm wrong then good.

If not.. well my spidey senses were on target again.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

43. Talking about "getting past" covid without addressing the realities of long covid and conditions

covid can cause is pretty disingenuous, not to mention the mass slow-unfolding grieving event our leaders seem to want to ignore.

[Demsrule86]

68. What you want is political suicide...and for what purpose? Losing the election is not

a suitable response to Covid.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

84. Acknowledging people's losses and sharing ideas and plans for how to deal with a mass disabling

event is political suicide? Interesting.

[Demsrule86]

96. Yes, it would political suicide in this election cycle.

[jcgoldie]

52. Fetterman is right

Continuing to push covid mandates at this point is suicide in November. People need to continue to wear their masks or take whatever precautions they are comfortable with but ~75% of the country is beyond it rightly or wrongly. If Democrats' message is "the pandemic isn't over" we're going to get slaughtered.

[Yavin4]

69. Esp. since masks and other NPIs do not work as evidence by different countries.

What does work are the vaccines, boosters, and Paxlovid. That combination allows us to move onto other things.

[bigtree]

83. this is disinformation

...without citation.

[Emile]

55. Fetterman impresses the hell out of me. Working class hero,

just what the party needs!

[Demsrule86]

65. Just what the party needs!

[Sympthsical]

92. The Permanent Covid Crisis isn't going to happen

People need to stop trying to make it happen.

Not even our own party wants the extreme minority positions I often see argued here.

[bigtree]

95. that's dishonest rhetoric

...designed to discourage protections for the vulnerable and immunocompromised in favor of some survival of the fittest negligence.

We can't care for those needs with indifference and bravado.

[Demsrule86]

98. The vulnerable are in far more danger if Republicans are elected.

[bigtree]

100. so elect Fetterman

...how's that so hard?

He won't be the only Democratic senator more eager to appease republican voters than actually do the right thing.

here's the numbers... Opposing masking is a republican thing, mostly.



Hell, the GOP doesn't even have a candidate in that race who anyone has bothered to mention. This isn't about that seat. It's about public policy. Complaining about the politics is everything wrong with the politics.

Who is Fetterman actually appealing to?

[Demsrule86]

103. You don't get Fetterman...he doesn't appease Republican's. He runs as a progressive and his honesty

is a big draw-tells it like it is and doesn't tell you what you want to hear. He didn't attack any at the debate. He has promised and will be a reliable Democratic vote in the Senate. Connor Lamb is not a reliable Democratic House member. He voted with Trump 68% of the time in his first year in office. He ran against Nancy Pelosi in his first race and never voted for her as speaker. He voted for Joe Kennedy. Representative Lamb is likely to join Manchin and Sinema not be a reliable Democratic vote for Joe Biden's policy.

[Sympthsical]

105. It's a disease of the unvaccinated

The immunocompromised lead lives of increased risk by default. It's unfortunate, but it is reality. They will have to continue their increased precautions.

However, continuing policies that have done untold damage for the millions of children who are now facing developmental difficulties is the real indifference.

People try to paper over what we are doing to an entire generation of children.

So who's really indifferent here?

[bigtree]

115. and elderly, and immunocompromised

...don't tell me you believe you can't get sick and die if vaccinated.

You have a really good chance of surviving, but it's not just unvaccinated getting covid and dying.

Report: Pregnant, vaccinated people more vulnerable to COVID
As reported last week by the Washington Post, a new study conducted by Epic Research found that even when vaccinated, they are nearly twice as susceptible to contracting COVID as non-pregnant people.
https://news.yahoo.com/report-pregnant-vaccinated-people-more-180147086.html

...and that's just one vulnerable group.

Too much misinformation in these defenses against defenses.

[Sympthsical]

126. Policies should be based on risks that are calculated in reality

And that was a towering straw man you just set up as an argument. NO ONE said you can't die if you're vaccinated. Not a single person in this thread. If you're confident in your arguments, make honest ones.

Some people will be more vulnerable, yes. Some people are more vulnerable to all kinds of illness. The question is whether or not the risks sufficient to continue official, government enforced policies on the entire population.

No. They are not.

[bigtree]

128. that's your opinion, a minority one

....a position supported by a majority of republicans and opposed by an overwhelming number of Democrats.

[Sympthsical]

130. So policies are correct or not based on polling? Then why are you on Fetterman?

If Fetterman believes voter opinion will support his statements and win his election, what's your complaint?

Since we're running things on opinion, and you are using that to argue your position?

How is what you're doing and him different?

Weird turn around.

[bigtree]

132. you posited about 'risks'

...which most Democrats aren't willing to force upon each other.

Democrats see those risks much differently than you describe; republicans mostly agree with your pov. That would seem to be at the crux of any argument that what Fetterman said is so politically popular that its a no brainer to adopt the anti-mask rhetoric.

Most Americans favor masking when appropriate, most Democrats overwhelmingly favor masking when appropriate. Most republicans oppose.

So who is Fetterman really appealing to? Who is this anti-masking argument meant to appease?

[Sympthsical]

137. Risks aren't calculated by opinion polls

They're calculated by statistics and scientific data.

If these perpetual mask policies were truly popular, why are politicians fleeing them so fast a Lorentz factor is involved? The Biden administration didn't even want to bother about it until usual suspects started grousing.

Do you think the tangible political and physical reality may be different than what polling suggests?

Just anecdotally, I do not see masks nearly as much as I used to. Not at stores, not at theaters or events, not in public. Why is that, if this massive support exists in reality instead of on paper?

And I'm not even arguing this on a personal level. I'm vaxxed and boosted, enjoyed Omicron back in December, and still wear a mask when I go to the store or a place like a movie theater.

But the hermit-like living in fear in the bunker psychology is over. No one wants to do it. No politician in their right mind advocates for it. They know they'd lose.

[bigtree]

139. no, they're calculated by the experts Pa. officials relied on to impose the restrictions

...that Fetterman arbitrarily called to end.

They're not calculated by the politics Fetterman and his defenders are prioritizing over covid protections.

The numbers I provided are to refute defenders of Fetterman who insist there's majority opposition to masking, and that advocating masks is some sort of political mistake.

But hey, my initial fault may have been mistaking your rhetoric about a "Permanant Covid crisis" for a serious argument. Resume the pwning. I'm going to clean up my feed a bit here.

[Dorian Gray]

153. The philly mandate ended...

so it seems as the local Philly government agreed with Fetterman's position.

Also, Fetterman isn't advocating against masks. He doesn't want to institute mandates, though. There is a difference, even if you're blurring the line between the two.

Mask away!

[Dorian Gray]

152. 1000 times this

and no matter how many times he repeats that your position is the minority position... it's totally untrue.

I am double boosted. I have two comorbidities. I still wear a mask. And I think mandates need to go.

We need to focus on equitable healthcare solutions for our population.

Not restrictions and mandates.

[Demsrule86]

97. That is it...hell I don't want it.

[gldstwmn]

108. We need Senate seats. He polls really well against the other side.

I don't like his stance here but I think he will vote like a Democrat in the Senate.

[Demsrule86]

143. That is it...he said the most important thing is he will be a loyal Democratic vote.

[themaguffin]

124. Fetterman is very smart and a good guy. I don't think that his statement is bad.

[Demsrule86]

142. I don't either.

[mvd]

145. And to be fair, another candidate, Kenyatta, is also against the mandate

He may be more progressive than Fetterman. While I don’t agree with completely dropping our guard, this won’t change my vote.