General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBREAKING: Microsoft has announced it will pay travel costs for its employees seeking an abortion.
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)JohnSJ
(92,273 posts)that have such a policy
Wednesdays
(17,386 posts)JohnSJ
(92,273 posts)I only hope they pay a price for that
50 Shades Of Blue
(10,023 posts)Midnight Writer
(21,770 posts)CrackityJones75
(2,403 posts)Happy for the work arounds but these are not solutions.
Another work around that shouldnt be needed is a fund that everyone can pay into that works like an unwanted oregnancy insurance to provide funds to people who do not work for companies like this. Maybe there is something like this already I dont know. Maybe that is where planned parenthood goes next?
Again this is a work around and not a solution.
exboyfil
(17,863 posts)Just like Catholic hospitals can sit on their high horses about ectopic pregnancies because they can be shuffled to other hospitals.
CrackityJones75
(2,403 posts)But if they do overturn then I damn sure want there to be a work around for my 15yr old daughter until we can get it fixed permanently.
Sorry but I have kids that need to have options other than Too bad people older than you voted incorrectly
JohnSJ
(92,273 posts)anti-women
exboyfil
(17,863 posts)I agree with you. Providing care is the most important thing. I am just pointing out the only way this sh__t is even viable is the current safety hatches ie a Republican fat catter can always get an abortion or facilitate his wife, daughter, or mistress getting one.
CrackityJones75
(2,403 posts)I was more just thinking it out.
wnylib
(21,511 posts)traveling expenses for out of state women and to increase the number of available places for women to get abortions. The fund will also cover the cost of the abortion for women who do not have the means to pay.
Meantime, there is a proposed bill to deny extradition and information sharing to states that try to legally pursue abortion providers in New York.
CrackityJones75
(2,403 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(145,374 posts)in2herbs
(2,945 posts)these other corporations leave these states that are now restricting and will in the future restrict health care rights.
I am not impressed. One thing I'm not hearing is will the employee have to declare the $$ gotten from their employer for travel costs and pay taxes on that $$$?
The response by corporations is not strong enough.
JohnSJ
(92,273 posts)It is part of their benefit package, as do most large corporations.
This is not a bad thing, and framing as though it is, isn't a very wise strategy
in2herbs
(2,945 posts)thing! What I said was that since money equates to power, these corps, if they are serious about a woman's right to autonomy, should not support states that are against it and move their corp headquarters to states that give women autonomy. Nothing will change until these red states start bleeding $$$ because of their religious beliefs. Or, they can preach to their voters that God will save them -- just send money.
JohnSJ
(92,273 posts)happen. Not after the fact
exboyfil
(17,863 posts)Take the jobs and taxes (whatever taxes they pay) elsewhere. Paying travel expenses is not sufficient - have a stated plan for leaving the specific states.
Not enough to pay travel, boycott these states like we'd boycott them if they were being run by ISIS.
hunter
(38,321 posts)Nah, I'm just joking.
It is fun imagining all the offices of these anti-abortionist legislators thrown into chaos when their computers stop working.
Hmm... now that I think about it, maybe there's something in all that boilerplate everyone automatically agrees to when they start a new Windows machine...
Mr.Bill
(24,305 posts)it adds one more negative and difficult aspect to getting an abortion. You have to tell your employer. This is something no woman should have to do. Women not only deserve access to the health care they seek, they also deserve privacy. At the very least, I hope these companies go to great lengths to provide as much confidentiality as possible.
exboyfil
(17,863 posts)They are already up in your business because healthcare insurance is mostly provided by employers. This just makes that worse.
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)"Next on Fox: Are women getting pregnant just so they can have an employer-paid vacation? Some people are saying that women working for Microsoft are getting pregnant on purpose to take advantage of Microsoft's policy of covering their travel costs to get an abortion."
They will almost certainly come up with a clever alliterative involving really degrading names for such women who may or may not exist.
wnylib
(21,511 posts)That I worked for said that our health insurance would cover the cost of abortion for employees.
My first reaction to the news was how hard it would be for a woman to to have to reveal her abortion in order to get it covered. But the anti choice employees said it was a terrible decision because it would encourage women to have abortions, as if they would all rush to get pregnant just so they could get that health benefit.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)Will women have to tell their boss, HR, they need time off and cash for an abortion? Will the company pay an abortion provider directly? Does that expose them to bounty hunters (in TX)?
Who is realistically going to tell their employer that information?
What if your boss is a fundy nut job? Will an employee be comfortable going back into that environment after an abortion (that your boss/HR knows about?)
In It to Win It
(8,258 posts)It just may expose them to bounty hunters in Texas... but I imagine for companies like Amazon, Microsoft, Tesla and other big companies, it will be the hardest $10k any bounty hunter will have worked for in their life. These big companies won't make that litigation easy. To any bounty hunter, I say good luck trying to collect.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)To reimburse for Planned Parenthood in Oklahoma? So everyone knows?
Or can employees just ask for an unspecified $400 reim without telling them why?
Will women do this?
gristy
(10,667 posts)The 3rd party will do all the work and keep all documents secure and provide anonymized summaries back to Microsoft.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)Jane Doe who works at Microsoft TX applies for a $400 voucher to use at a clinic in Oklahoma and were supppsed to believe Microsoft isnt going to know whats going on, even if theyre using a third party?
Im honestly trying to figure out how this will realistically work. Exactly how does using a third party help with this situation?
gristy
(10,667 posts)A 4th party could conceivably be hired to audit the 3rd party.
The 3rd party could even be an insurance company. MS takes out a policy for big bucks on behalf of all their employees, and the insurer takes it from there.
So many ways to skin this cat.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)Dont forget getting an abortion will be a crime.
There are some states moving to classify it as murder.
Once thats in place the states can subpoena medical and financial records. Will these companies pay to shield their employees records (or pay for their legal defense against murder since they facilitated the commission of this crime?)
Thank you for your insights into how big corp will handle this
fierywoman
(7,686 posts)Ms. Toad
(34,076 posts)You don't think they go to their boss to ask for gender-affirming care now, do you? That is handled through their insurer, with a HIPAA wall between those managing payment for care and the employer.
Not to mention that this travel is available for "other medical services where access to care is limited in availability in an employees home geographic region." This is a huge benefit for those of us with rare diseases who need to be treated in specialty centers outside of our home state. Specialized care from high volume centers can often make the difference between life and death for those of us with rare diseases. We live in Ohio. My daughter's rare disease is best treated in Minnesota. My rare disease is best treated in NY or TX.
I'm not sure why the first thought of so many people is that in order to receive the benefit of this that it will require disclosure to your boss about the need to use the fund. Receiving health care benefits does not require disclosure of the nature of the illness or condition to your employer, rather than to the third party managing medical benefits.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)In Texas already.
Crossing state lines to get an abortion will become a crime in the near future.
Will third parties participate in committing and facilitating the crime of murder?
Helping trans children get gender affirming care is now child abuse in some states. Are third parties participating in child abuse now when they help company employees families?
Thank you for input on this. Im not being snarky. I honestly want to know.
I presume your medical care is not a crime. Im trying to ascertain how this works when the employee and/or the company are committing murder (or child abuse)
Furthermore, there is no shield here from the law. HIPAA doesnt apply to crimes and law agencies can access those records if they believe theres criminal activity
Ms. Toad
(34,076 posts)The question I was addressing is the repeated concern that individuals would not want to disclose to their employer that they need to travel for an abortion. The exceptions to HIPAA don't include permitting a third party medical clearing entity to disclose the reason for the expenditure to the employer.
Whether the HIPAA exception would permit that 3d party clearing entity to disclose information to law enforcement, or in response to a subpoena, is an entirely different question (and one which will likely take some time to play out in court).
The draft opinion overturning Roe leaves states free to prohibit abortion within the boundaries of their state. It does not make abortion a federal crime, nor does it required that every state outlaw abortions. Obtaining an abortions in a state in which abortion is legal is not a crime.
There are strong constitutional presumptions regarding the right of citizens to travel between states (commerce clause, privileges & immunities are two such provisions). States are generally constitutionally prohibited from restricting travel for the purpose of engaging in imterstate commerce (e.g. to obtain (and pay for) abortion services.)
That doesn't mean there won't be states which try to make it a crime - just that such attempts are extremely unlikely to be successful.
So - it is unlikely that the HIPAA exception would permit that 3d party clearing entity to disclose information to the state under the exceptions related to criminal activity.
Gender affirming care likely falls into the same category - although it is more complicated because it isn't a one-time thing, and would involve continued care within the state which makes it illegal (e.g. puberty blocking medication taken on an ongoing basis).
Arazi
(6,829 posts)Should employees of these companies bet on this SCOTUS adhering to precedent?
However unlikely it is that companies wont disclose your criminal medical history to law enforcement, that chance isnt zero. Should employees gamble on that and involve their company?
I think these concerns ARE related to the point about employees reluctance to tell their employer that they need funds/time off for an abortion (or transgender care for children). All of this will go down in TX (for example) where Tesla is based to name one company thats offered this.
Should employees trust that red state HR managers/third party entities can be trusted to keep criminal behavior confidential?
I do appreciate the discussion. Im not adversarial with you. Im deeply worried that companies are cavalierly offering up this perk so they dont have to face the hard truth about what their campaign donations have wrought.
Ms. Toad
(34,076 posts)1. What I was addressing - employee's reluctance to disclose the reason for their medical travel to their employer
and
2. The legality of state bans on travel.
Employee reluctance to tell employer
There are existing systems for employers to pay for medical care for their employees without receiving any knowledge about the reason for that care. All of this, even in small businesses (third parties), is handled by third parties - generally insurance companies. This is true regardless of the system - from the system I had in my small firm, in which my employers reimbursed me directly for every medical expense not covered by insurance to standard insurance plans, to employers (like Microsoft) which are self-insured. In every instance of which I'm aware, the payment of medical expenses (to providers or reimbursement to employees) is made by a third party bound by HIPAA. This additional covered expense will be covered the same way. It will be similar to my employer's unusual reimbursement of all out-of-poclet expenses: I submitted all receipts to a third party. The third party reviewed them to make sure they qualified, that I hadn't double-billed them, etc. They informed my employer of the amount I was to be reimbursed. My employer cut the check. (In other instances, the third party reimbursed me directly from funds either I (or my employer) had deposited in advance.
Only the third party knows, and is bound by HIPAA not to disclose the information to the employer. The employer has no ability to disclose an employee has had an abortion because they don't know (unless the employee chooses to tell them).
The offer to provide travel assistance for non-local care is a good (and long overdue) thing. People with rare diseases often both incur extraordinary expenses because we hit the out-of-pocket maximum every year ($2,000 - $8,000 in expenses most people hit perhaps once every 10 years or so). In addition, our care is often so specialized that local care isn't good enough. I'm not aware of any employer who covers these expenses. There are a half a dozen centers which see enough individuals with my disease to be competent to treat it, and around the same for my daughter's. When we travel for care, it is completely out-of-pocket. Every single company which has offered to pay medical expenses has used similar language - travel for medical care which is not available locally.
Disclosing anything to your employer about your health is a two-edged sword. You may be entitled to accommodations and FMLA - but you can also be looked at as a resource drain (and potentially less competent). It's not an identical question to abortion - but deciding whether to take advantage of the resources available, when doing so means disclosing to anyone (a third party intermediary, HR, your employer) is not unique to abortion.
Legality of state bans on travel
That's a much bigger question, which goes well beyond (and isn't directly related to) the question I was answering.
Anyone getting an abortion (or assisting someone in getting an abortion) will have to weigh who to trust, and how much they are willling to trust the legal system to do the right thing.
I'm pretty confident that state bans on travel for abortion will be declared unconstitutional. Unlike privacy, interstate comerce is explicitly mentioned in the Constitution, and is governed by the Federal Government (not the states). Part of Alito's analysis in the draft relies expressly on the silence in the constitution as to abortion. Side-stepping the constitution and upholding a state ban on travel would be similar to upholding a state ban on possession of firearms (since the right to bear firearms is expressly mentioned in the constitution). I'm a bit surprised that the court used this case to overturn Roe v. Wade - but that surprise relates only to the instant reversal, as opposed to overturning it a couple of years from now, not to it being overturned.
There is certainly a risk in trusting anyone or the law, especially in the near future until the first laws start making their way through the courts and we see if they . Women who need an abortion in states where they are banned are going to need to make hard choices as to who to trust. If they have an employer who provides medical travel assistance, choosing to take advantage of it ill be just one of those choices. But having that option is better than not having it. Just like having friends/family in statew where abortion is legal is better than not - even if you ultimately choose not to trust them.
Shermann
(7,423 posts)In It to Win It
(8,258 posts)BumRushDaShow
(129,177 posts)you are sure to Excel.
Lonestarblue
(10,024 posts)Women of reproductive age should seriously consider moving to a blue state once Roe is overturned. The religious right will not atop there either. They will pressure the Supreme Court, which probably needs to coercion, to overturn LGBTQ rights and outlaw all forms of birth control. It would take years to see change, but if young women move away, along with LGBTQ, eventually it will have an impact because young men are likely to follow. Already some families with trans kids have moved out of Texas because of the draconian new policy allowing charges of child abuse for providing gender-affirming healthcare to a trans child. No family wants to see their trans child removed from the home and place in the Texas foster care systemone of the worst in the nation known for regular physical and sexual abuse.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,362 posts)Ms. Toad
(34,076 posts)by a third party bound by HIPAA not to disclose medical information.
This is not a problem unique to abortion - employers already have mechanisms in place to provide health care to employees without requiring disclosure of sensitive medical information. Even when the plan is self-funded. Even when federal regulations require documentation of the precise nature of the need to disburse funds (FSA, HSA, etc. funds).
Heck, my small employer (fewer than 15 people) paid for all medical expenses not covered by insurance. Even in that scenario, all out-of-pocket expenses were submitted to a third party which reviewed them to determine they were covered, and then reimbursed me and sent the bill to the employer.
I'm sure this will be handled the same way (as a pass-through managed by a third party, or as part of health care coverage, also managed by a third party).
And anyone who doesn't trust a third party which is bound by law not to disclose to their employer is free to reject the benefit and pay out of pocket.
erronis
(15,306 posts)Why are we applauding employers who give special benefits to their employees?
Why aren't we figuring out how all women can choose for themselves. Not needing to go to their HR department, or ask hubbie for permission, or taking out a loan (if possible), or undergoing a dangerous unsupervised procedure?
Have the federal government send out abortifacients to every household - just like covid tests. I'd love to watch the RWNJs heads pop on this one.
rurallib
(62,431 posts)Maine Abu El Banat
(3,479 posts)Will they pull all buisness from pro birth states? 🤔
not a texan
(39 posts)Start moving those jobs out of those states. It can't be too much longer and there will no longer be any person with enough education to hire from those states anyway after they ban and burn the books. No new employee will want to move to that state for a job. If you take a long view, now is the time to start the transition.