It Is Really Too Bad The "United" States Can't Be Split

[SoCalDavidS]

It would be about the only thing that would make me comfortable living here at this point. Instead, I fully expect the Shithole country known as America, will continue to get worse in my remaining years.

[Tommy Carcetti]

1. Splitting up the US would be a grave mistake.

Which is why Russian propagandists so eagerly spread the prospects of that circa 2016.

[SoCalDavidS]

2. Mistake Or Not, We Can't Coexist With The Other Side Anymore

We should stop referring to this as the United States then, because it’s the LAST thing this country is or likely will be.

[RKP5637]

4. The concept of United is gone. Over and over again the division is stark with no signs of

compromising.

[keep_left]

12. A lot of people across the spectrum were suggesting a return to civics...

...instruction in the schools, but that seems like a Band-Aid solution at this point.

[jcgoldie]

13. except that no-one on the right is actually in favor of education

Knowledge is their enemy.

[keep_left]

18. Touche.

BTW, what's up with the title area of a post not being able to use accent characters?

For example: touché

You can't do that in the title, but you can in the message area? Oh, well.

[smirkymonkey]

67. I agree.

I think we could pretty easily split up the northeast and the west coast. We are the wealthiest areas of the country and the most liberal.

There might have to be some kind of relocation assistance for right wingers in blue zones and liberals/non-lunatics in red zones, but it could be done.

The thing is, they will probably declare war on us anyway and then things will get really messy. I would be happy to be rid of them though.

[DFW]

77. If you think the housing situation is tight now

Wait til you see what happens to the pride of real estate when 5,250,000 Texas Democrats arrive and say, “Ok, where are you putting us up?”

[Tree Lady]

80. Well if the moved now to Wyoming, Idaho, Dakotas

and even OK they could take them over and we would have plenty of blue states to change lots of laws. Sigh...

[DFW]

85. Need some more global warming first LOL

No way you will convince five million Texans to freeze their asses off in Wyoming or Idaho winters, or bore themselves to death in Oklahoma (in between the fracking earthquakes, that is!).

[Tree Lady]

96. I know my kids in San Antonio

Were happy to leave the snow winters they had. They were moved around by military and ended up in Texas at end of his 20 yrs last summer and staying.

[hunter]

79. It's a Russian fantasy that the U.S.A. suffer the same fate as the Soviet Union.

Nothing is going to put the Soviet Union back together again and it's not just the U.S.A. standing in the way.

The odds seem pretty high now that Russia itself will fall apart next.

What propaganda they were spreading was projection.

[Hekate]

84. And they are still at it. Look at this thread, where the whole stupid idea is playing out again...

We’re supposed to split the US apart by geography? When every neighborhood has some of each? Our diversity isn’t just a slogan — it plays out across the continent and the Islands.

We have big troubles, but when I start thinking it couldn’t get worse, along comes someone who demonstrates that it certainly could.

[RKP5637]

3. I fear that well might be the only solution, eventually. I see really nothing bridging the gap. And

there is media in this country that widens it as best it can. Also Rupert Murdoch should be thrown out of the country, somehow. He's destroying the US with endless propaganda all for his personal wealth. Some countries don't put up with this bullshit. His holdings have really become similar to Joseph Goebbels propaganda machine for Hitler.

[Johnny2X2X]

5. They'd invade within a year

Republicans are obsessed with controlling other people, some new border isn't going to prevent that, they'd invade the other half almost immediately because they couldn't handle that other people were free.

[CrispyQ]

9. This.

They live to own the libs, & wouldn't mind if they could, literally.

[MadameButterfly]

11. Even if they didn't invade

they'd destroy our remaining natural lands (largely in red states), all attempts to mitigate climate change would be gone, their air and water pollution would cross borders. And heaven help us if any of the nukes were under their control.

We have no choice but to save them from themselves.

[MissMillie]

14. they'd have to

given that blue states have been subsidizing red states for a long time. Without blue-state support, the red-states would have no way to fund their authoritarian regime.

[lindysalsagal]

72. Exactly what I was thinking. We'd be looking at the Berlin wall in Illinois.

When the word liberal makes you tremble, you'll attack anything that seems free. And the Irony is they scream freedom all the time, and then fear it in our side.

[llashram]

6. at 74

Last edited Sat May 21, 2022, 08:43 AM - Edit history (1)

I just hope that when this country enters its 2nd Civil War based on race/culture/gender/sexual orientation and to a lesser degree politics I won't be here. The decline of Amerika has been most notable 1972-2020...

[NewHendoLib]

8. This!! 66 here

[Karma13612]

91. Yup, 68 here.

Not sure I should be so worried about making my savings last until I croak. I would prefer to enjoy the money right now, and then when the country enters the uncivilized “civil war II”, I will just locate a compassionate doc who is willing to allow me a peaceful demise. In the chaos, is anyone really going to care? And with the repukes bent on ending/privatizing SS and MCR, and not allowing women to have abortions, this country will look like a 3rd world country. And it will BE a third world country.

I hate the thought of living under a christo-facist regime with a climate scorched earth, and the streets filled with Trump 2024 flags.

Post-apocalyptic movies and Gilead drama shows are becoming all too real to me.

I don’t fancy my chances.

At the rate we are going, I won’t last as long as my Mom (95), her Mom (99) nor even my Dad (88). IF this country was prosperous for the middle class, with good climate prospects, and a proper functioning menu of social programs, and sane politicians, and an educated electorate, I would feel confident that I could hit or surpass those survival rates. But, not under our current circumstances. Nor do I WANT to.

I graduated from High School in 1972 and this country has been heading downhill ever since.

[llashram]

93. I agree

wholeheartedly.

[Binkie The Clown]

7. I'd be fine being a citizen of Cascadia.

[Aristus]

42. Me too!

Cascadia Forever!

[jg10003]

10. It will split - it is inevitable

We are moving towards permanent minority rule. However minority ruled governments will inevitably fail. Unless the Electoral College is abolished and Senate representation becomes proportional to population then the United States cannot endure. Small rural, largely white, states will control the government while large states will pay taxes and have no say in government.

Under such a system, how long will it be before the people of California say “We have over 10 percent of the population and an economy bigger than that of France or England. Why do we live in a country where all are laws are made by Alabama, Mississippi, Idaho, and the other states where evolution is still controversial?” California will declare itself an independent nation, but there won't be a war. California will simply cease to participate in the federal government.

New York and New England will join together and declare the northeast to be independent.

The south will happily agree to the succession of California and the northeast since they will now be rid of those godless coastal liberal elites. The south will then be able to establish what they have always wanted; a theocracy where all laws are based on extreme Christian fundamentalism, a Baptist Taliban.

The other states will align themselves according to their interests. The final result will be something like the following map.

[keep_left]

15. The only problem (well, not the only one) with that map is that many of those "provinces"...

...don't really hold together very well. In particular, most of the states in "Great Lakeland" have some real chud areas, even MN. And OH has largely become a red state in the last few elections. Rust Belt decay and MAGA radicalization probably have a lot to do with that. As many have said, splitting things up geographically is a non-starter because so many states are purple rather than blue or red.

There is some truth to the map, though. It does show the overall cultural and political fault lines.

[jg10003]

21. the map is an illustration of the consequences of

Minority rule. The purpose of the map is to illustrate that the United States cannot endure unless there are fundamental changes to the structure of government. The borders of the map are merely a suggestion of what could happen. Although I am pretty certain about Pacifica, Atlantica, and New Chistendom.

[Karma13612]

92. There are a LOT of purple and red

Areas of NY state. I am in one and suffer under the current MAGAT Representative of NY-21, Elise Stefanik. I think the area considered Atlantica would have a hard time reconciling. There might even need to be a civil war just for this area. I don’t fancy my chances. If I was physically and financially able, I would probably hope for a place in Pacifica. Or the new one…Cascadia.

[TheRealNorth]

25. Exactly

There would be civil war in the Great Lakes. And you can be that right-wing billionaires would be funding the right wing militias, with control of that much fresh water at stake.

[Tommy Carcetti]

38. Even in the tiny "Republic of South Florida"...

...I'm sure the redder areas of Fort Myers and Naples won't want to be lumped in with Palm Beach, Broward or Dade.

And upstate, you'd have blue Tallahassee and Gainesville, not to mention the urban centers of Tampa, Orlando and Jacksonville not wanting to be part of the red.

There's no neat line for any of it.

And frankly people who want to encourage some sort of artificial schism aren't doing us any favors.

[The Grand Illuminist]

16. Either way will lead to non-debatable civil war.

First: The vast majority of farmland that cultivates food are unfortunately in red states. And it doesn't matter who owns it.

And then you got currency development. Each zone is going to have its own currency. That will not be as easy as 1860s civil war.

[jg10003]

22. farmers need to sell their crops.

A mutually beneficial trade pact will be reached.

[Calista241]

29. There's just no way that map communicates anything.

This topic is ridiculous. You say they'll come up with a mutually beneficial trade pact like it's the easiest thing since sliced bread. There would be so many things to negotiate it's not even funny.

Also, people are moving out of the cities. WFH is going to be the standard in the next 10 years, which means cities like New York, Chicago, LA, Atlanta, Miami and others are going to come upon some very hard times economically. If you can come up with a map that takes migration over 30 years of work-from-home into account, then we can have a discsusion.

Then we can talk about travel rights, air travel access, shipping access, waterway access, citizenship, military infrastructure redistribution, immigration controls, NASA and satellite ownership, power plant usage, and 40 million other equally important items on the list.

[jg10003]

33. The map isn't meant to be taken literally

The point of the map is not to define the boarders of the split-up or to deal with things like trade and currency issues. The point of the map is to show the danger of minority rule. In 20 years 70% of the population will live in 15 states. That means that 70% of the population will be represented by 30% of the senate. And of course, the senate decides the makeup of the judiciary. Also, presidents who lose the popular vote but win the electoral college will become the norm. Such a system cannot endure for very long. Eventually the majority will demand equality or independence. And the Christian Taliban who runs the government will be happy to see the godless libs leave.

[ripcord]

43. Pacifica is ridiculous

The eastern halves of California, Oregon and Washington are red as is most of Nevada outside the urban areas.

[Hekate]

86. Balderdash

[Stuart G]

89. No split possible. Not in Constitution. A Dreamer's Dream. but wait.....................

Did we elect an Afro American as President?

Did we run a woman as President?...Is there now a woman Vice President?

Is Alaska part of the U.S.?... much too cold to be part of U.S....Doesn't Alaska have part of the ARtic Circle?

...............................not legal to have part of Artic Circle...

Wait is Hawaii an island?..............not legal to have an island as a state.

YES........TO GET THE TRUTH, ONE NEEDS.... TO LOOK AT THE "Legal Laws" to find the total truth!!!

[TheProle]

17. I support the union

and will not be divided against my fellow Americans, especially attempts to shoehorn a solution to political grievances by hacking up territory without regard to the mix of political worldviews that exist in them.

[asa4ever]

19. Climate change will take care of that.

Major wars over fertile land and eventually countries will break up into fiefdoms. That is unless we have a nuclear war.

[roamer65]

46. The Southern US will be nearly uninhabitable in 30 years.

Summers will be utter hell on earth down there.

We don’t want the RW fundy garbage coming up north.

So what do we do?

[asa4ever]

53. Major population shifts around the world are going to be a big problem.

That's why I think there will be local wars, not a world war. How many Americans do you think Canada will allow in?

[roamer65]

64. I think New England, New York, Michigan, etc will be Canadian provinces by that point.

So the international border may be further south than it is now.

[TheRealNorth]

26. The fuckers can have FL

It will be underwater in 100 years anyway.

[Tommy Carcetti]

37. Well, then the moose can have Minnesota. nt

[TheRealNorth]

41. We like the Moose

Maybe the moose don't like us as much.

Sure, I am mostly speaking out of anger at the shit going down in FL right now. I hope FL is not a lost cause, but you seem to be magnet for all the Republicans in the Midwest who have made their money and want to retire in a place with warm weather and low tax rates on their investments.

Sorry that our Red Hat ass hats are all flocking down there. But, if it makes you feel better, we get a lot of them returning to their cabins up here in the summer.

[Binkie The Clown]

56. Correction: Moose and Squirrel. nt

[CrackityJones75]

40. 100?

hell in 10 I think quite a bit will be.

[roamer65]

48. Another 10 years and the FL property panic will happen.

The crash of the Florida real estate market.

[TheProle]

52. Texas liberal here.

We are working hard on turning the state blue, because it's the right thing for us and our neighbors, whether they realize it or not.

Not because some rando internet commenter believes our chance at remaining in the union should be ticking away.

[mcar]

59. This FL liberal thanks you!

We're doing the same thing here.

[TheProle]

61. Solidarity

[DFW]

78. There is a certain elite that finds it more convenient to deny we exist

Barbara Jordan? Never heard if her! Beto Who? Ron Kirk? Bill White? Wendy Davis? No such animals could possibly exist in “Tex-Ass!” We know because we just posted it on the internet!

in case it wasn’t painfully obvious

[Hekate]

82. Molly Ivins. Anne Richards. I like your list -- a lot of my favorite she-roes are Texans.

Barbara Jordan is unforgettable.

I know Texas can resurrect its Democratic heritage — it can, it must.

[DFW]

87. I should have added Ann Richards and Molly Ivins for sure

Cecile Richards, too, although I have never been with her anywhere other than Washington, DC, so I never think of her as a Texan.

[Texasgal]

94. Don't forget Jim Hightower!

excellent list!

[DFW]

95. A list conveniently ignored by some who prefer a stereotype

The stereotype involves a lot less effort to apply, of course….

[Tree Lady]

81. Keep it up my two kids in San Antonio

Just turned from red to blue because they hate Trump and the horrible values he shows for their kids. They love Beto.

[Hotler]

70. No need to split the country if a fascist dictator is elected pres. nt

[sarisataka]

23. Since the USSR split

Russia has been in at least eleven conflicts/insurgencies/"special military operations" involving former USSR territories.

Just food for thought, Kyiv and Chicago are similar in population and size...

[Calista241]

24. I hate this subject.

98% of Americans out there have no desire to see the country split up. And if people propose it, or act like it's some aspirational goal, they're going to think we're crazy, and that will diminish our political power.

All most Americans care about is feeding and raising their families, and making the best of their own lives. You'd basically be asking them to fight a 20 year high risk, all consuming, political battle; and perhaps even have a very high chance at a real shooting war. The resulting countries would have a fraction of the political and economic power that the US currently has. Who know WTF would happen in a world without American political power to push things along and keep the peace.

And splitting up the country isn't even possible. We'd have to work out where the military goes, what equipment goes, what happens with air travel, trains, highways, water, food, who gets NASA, who gets all the satellites, free travel rights, voting rights, citizenship, import and export taxes, shipping access, power distribution, and 10 million other equally important things. It's so impractical it's not worth mentioning.

[jg10003]

27. I am also against the U.S splitting up. But I don't see how it can be avoided unless

the Electoral College is abolished and Senate representation becomes proportional to population.

[Calista241]

30. One complicating factor is that Work From Home is the new standard

and people will / are moving out of the cities. Which will diminish their political and economic power. New York, LA, Chicago, Atlanta, Houston, and other cities will get smaller over the coming years.

[Tommy Carcetti]

36. I know.

It's asinine.

Asinine to want a split, and asinine to think there will be some neat, convenient geographic split that mitigates any sort of bloodshed.

[BannonsLiver]

55. Unfortunately it's not governable anymore. That is the issue.

[Polybius]

76. It's not even remotely close to 98% opposed

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/10/06/americans-national-divorse-theyre-wrong-515443

https://centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/new-initiative-explores-deep-persistent-divides-between-biden-and-trump-voters/

41% of Democrats and 52% of Republicans want to see it split up.

[Hekate]

90. There's a lot to hate. As another poster pointed out: this is a Russian propaganda wet-dream...

Only that poster wasn’t as rude as I just was.

The only entities that would benefit are not even American, and not even individuals.

Individual Americans would be utterly miserable with the chaos, including their real estate losses as they would be forced to leave everything they’d built up to go to an area where their dollars might or might not get them an equal home — or land, for farmers. Leaving jobs and everything known behind is a psychological wrench that would be endured by millions.

Corporations — would Big Business be happy? I think not. At bottom, they prefer political stability on their home territory. They don’t care what kind of government, I think, just that it be stable, and breaking countries apart is a recipe for an all-out shooting civil war, which is bad for business.

Who would benefit? Follow the money? Who is promoting this cockamamie idea?

Not surprisingly, the same entities that promoted Brexit, and promote Calexit, and the breakup of the the European Union. The far-right in every Western democracy. Russian strategists with Putin’s ear. Add to that mix in America: a handful of fantasists with a set of maps based on science fiction novels.

[Initech]

28. It's truly scary that they are cozying up to a racist autocrat like Viktor Orban.

What kind of shithole party holds its conference in a foreign country ruled by hate and autocracy and then claims to be America First?

[keep_left]

32. And they're trying to keep the press out of the CPAC conference.

I'd say that qualifies as "consciousness of guilt" when it comes to their fascism.

[Hekate]

31. Not this again

[Tickle]

34. I don't typical entertain these types of posts

but that was yesterday. At this point I would have no issue in splitting up and I almost want to

[Efilroft Sul]

35. The major problem I see even if there were some feasible way to effect a geographical split:

Red America would have fire-breathers demanding an Anschluss, or a war of reunification.

[raccoon]

39. I totally ageee. Nt

[roamer65]

44. It can be split.

There is no verbage in the Constitution that says it can’t be split.

Via the 10th Amendment all powers specifically not granted by the Constitution to the federal government are reserved by the states and people.

In other words, we are only one SCOTUS case away from breakup. It would take a favorable ruling from the SCOTUS for it to be truly official.

All that said, I don’t see the country breaking up quite yet. I do, however, see it returning to a confederation like 1789-1861 rather than a federation. Overturn of Roe will be the mile marker for that change.

I have always seen myself as a Michigander first, American second.

[FakeNoose]

45. That suggestion is totally unworkable

What divides this country aren't geographic barriers or statelines. We're divided by opinions, who we listen to on radio and TV, what we read and agree with. If you poll every house on your street, you'll find a different opinion at each house. In many cases, the families themselves will be split on their opinions.

So how can we agree to split up the country? Who's going to stay and who's going to move somewhere else? Who gets to keep their job and their property, and who has to start all over again? Do you really think the people you don't agree with are going to get up and leave?

[roamer65]

47. Usually what happens is very similar to Partition Day, 1947.

The day India and Pakistan split into two nations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India

It was NOT pretty.

[FakeNoose]

49. It would NEVER happen here

Yes I know what Partition Day is. Never. Gonna. Happen. Here.

However if you want to up and leave, nobody is stopping you. I'm not singling you out to be mean, I'm saying that's how everyone feels about someone who wants to split the country.

[roamer65]

50. Very well could happen here.

…and I’m not going anywhere.

Fact is Michigan has more in common with Ontario than it does Alabama.

That’s just the cold, hard truth.

67 percent of Michiganders support Roe, for example.

[Noahv]

51. With gerrymandering, voter disenfranchisement and the Right Wing court..

It will be (and maybe it already is) impossible for the non-rightwingers to have a say in our undemocratic system.
We were a Democracy several years ago. It changed.

[BannonsLiver]

54. This is why we'd have been better off losing the Revolutionary War

The United Territories of Canada might have been the end result. Just a big continent ruled by Britain, which would eventually have had to cede it. Worst case scenario we're part of the UK. I'll take either over this shit show.

[róisín_dubh]

71. I live in the UK and even under the Tories...

as a woman I have no fear that my bodily autonomy will be controlled by lunatics in Parliament.

I cannot say the same for my birth nation and I look forward to the day I can get citizenship here or in Ireland. Thank god if I do have to return to the US, I can at least go to the sane state of my birth, NJ (which I admit has loads of warts, but generally not where social issues are concerned).

[mcar]

57. This again?

What do you suggest we Democrats in red states do? Give up our homes, our state pensions?

Fck that shit. I have been fighting for democracy in Florida for 30 years. We sometimes think of leaving because of how crazy it's gotten, but we are here and we count as American citizens.

[mahina]

69. Word

[Tom Kitten]

58. How would we divvy up the nukes?

Who'd do it and how would that be negotiated? Do the coast states get to keep the navy?
Also I think it would end up in a scenario like, say, the Walking Dead, little enclaves of people trying to survive while fighting and killing each other for precious resources while at the same time fighting off the zombie maga hordes. Fun to think about though, especially for those with morbid imaginations.

[Marius25]

60. I wish the US would break up. I don't want to live in the same

country as Republicans anymore.

[mcar]

62. How do you propose it happen?

You do realize there are plenty of Republicans in "blue" states and plenty of Democrats in "red" states, don't you?

will there be a relocation plan? Will I get paid for my home and provided assistance to buy a new home? Will my husband's Florida pension transfer over to a "blue" state?

What's the plan?

[Marius25]

63. I have a plan

Set a deadline, say 5 years. Allow states to work with other states to discuss forming their own Unions, for example the Northeast could agree to form a Northeast or New England Republic. The West Coast could create the California Republic. Some regions could even talk to Canada or the EU about an alliance with them. Canada might even agree to annex some states.

Encourage people to decide if and where they want to move to during that time frame. If they can't afford to move, States and the Feds will provide monetary/logistical assistance so they can go to the region/state they want.

States can convert their National Guards into militaries. Each state will have to create laws to address services provided by the Fed - so state healthcare systems will have to be created (some already have this.)

Once all the logistics are sorted out, announce the end of the US, and close all interstate travel. Dissolve the Federal government.

Each state/region can then set their own priorities on who to allow in after the deadline, and how to deal with people who violate their territory.

It will be messy, but I see no other option. The US will be a fascist country if we don't break off from the Republicans.

[Tommy Carcetti]

66. That would be a shitshow. nt

[Marius25]

68. Yup, but still necessary imo.

[Hekate]

83. Pakistan and India broke apart by agreement, and blood flowed in the streets ...

… where Hindus and Muslims had lived side by side for centuries. Was that necessary? Are you willing for that to happen here? Apparently so.

[bdamomma]

74. if we could only

send them to the "black hole".

[LiberalFighter]

65. Russia would be escatic.

[bdamomma]

75. of course

that is Putin's goal for us to split up. So fcuk that.

[Blaukraut]

73. The alternative to the impossible split is the almost guaranteed fascist rule

And before anyone says that we’re never going to succumb to fascism: How are we going to stop it with the limited tools at our disposal?

[BlackSkimmer]

88. How would you split it?

It’s no longer north and south you know.

[Hekate]

97. Good question. It always comes down to maps created for fantasy & science fiction novels.

Look! Here's the map! It’s inevitable!