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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSo Ramos was a loner, bullied because of his poverty status. A rant.
And, I'm guessing that the demeaning environment made it too easy for him to drop out of school, making his situation worse.
Not going to defend him, but, this was foreseeable. The Columbine killer was also bullied. Ramos was a child that was left behind, and instead of getting help to rebuild his confidence and try again as an adult to find a productive place in this world, he instead did what this country does best. He purchased a military style weapon because our laws are permissive. And now we have a new massacre on the books.
I want to point out that this was not your ordinary Anglo-incel. This is something else. Maybe he was an incel, since he was aggressive to women, but not the typical White Supremacist type. And this should be a major concern for us because the American school environment is about to get worse for minority children in this country, and others who don't fit the Anglo mold.
I think the schools, in the way that Republicans are trying to change it, are creating a harsh place for non-white, non-conservative children to grow up in. The objective of the Anglo conservative culture has always been to make their perspective, the dominant one. It has confused young white men who are growing up in a world that is growing diverse and doesn't recognize their "birth-right" as the top dogs. Raised by racist parents, no surprised that they grow up believing that all their problems are due to people who do not look like them. Even if they know how absurd this is, they know that they will receive quiet approval from the people who believe like they do. The only people that matter to them.
Ramos suggest a different kind of misadaption, but with the same gruesome results. Young American men are solving identity problems by blasting away at defenseless people. It has now crossed cultural lines.
What we do now can save lives in the future. This should be enough for us to fight for our schools, and fight for our children. Subject material and topics taught in schools matter. Children are getting mixed messages from all sources, but school should no be one of them. We are a diverse country and we need to teach children how to deal with the differences of diversity in a safe school setting. And that includes the issue of poverty, which is what slowly destroyed Ramos.
And poverty isn't insurmountable. My own father was born on the floor of a migrant worker's shack and he still managed to rise up the ranks and reach his full potential. In my father's case, community was everything. The public school teachers in Ohio gave him the tools he needed at the right time in his life. When this country was faced with WWII, he answered the call and this country gave him the opportunity to serve. There was one blatant example of racism in the military, when no one offered to team up with him to put on his pack. Military packs were heavy back then, filled with equipment that today would feel like ironman material, which is why soldiers were taught to use the buddy system. My father just handled it the way he always handled these kind of things. On his own. He devised a way to prop up the pack on his bunk and sat on the ground, with his back to the pack and stood up, sliding into the straps.
The thing is, he would always end these kind of stories with such a positive spin. He would say, "learn to do things for yourself. People will respect you for it." But I don't believe that any more. This is not the kind of culture I would find when it was my turn to come to America. I see a lot of self-interested people coming together for all the wrong reasons, usually in secrecy, and it inevitably undermines the process that is supposed to protect all of us.
I guess my father lived in another time. He would find respect and strength through military service* AND through my mother's family in Panama. Most everyone that I knew in that country overcame some sort of poverty. But community and family kept everyone strong and they helped each other through it. I don't ever remember anyone mocking another for their financial status. There was lots of support for education, and recriminations for those who steered away from the straight and narrow. Family was family.
On the other hand, in America, poverty is mocked and put down, usually by those across the aisle. A double offense, because conservatives are the ones that create the obstacles that will make sure that people remain in poverty. By my observation, it is now creating mental issues in the young, who decide to take things out with guns. So, congratulations conservatives. Another assimilation hurdle conquered.
In sum, we need to go back to the lessons of Columbine and reaffirm anti-bullying programs. But we also need to create an environment in schools that doesn't mock children because they don't fit into the box that Anglo conservative are trying to define as an ideal. We are a diverse country, and the sooner we embrace this reality, the sooner we can raise well-adapted American children.
*After WWII, my father would use the GI Bill to get higher education. He would always remain close to the military, afterwards, working as a civilian for the Army and serving in the Reserves.
50 Shades Of Blue
(10,043 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,433 posts)H2O Man
(73,605 posts)Much of the media coverage claimed they were bullied, in an attempt to make sense of the horror. But, as you note, it was not only not true, but the opposite.
The Grand Illuminist
(1,336 posts)That shooting was planned for a good while. It takes a long time to build pipe bombs to attempt such a massacre.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,433 posts)Scrivener7
(51,007 posts)this is caused by bullying is rank bullshit and needs to stop.
This is caused by guns and by the American fetishization of guns. Period. Full stop.
Beachnutt
(7,340 posts)and more than likely his family support the republicans.
Ocelot II
(115,842 posts)Kids are influenced more by what they see on-line these days than by their parents' politics. Don't go assuming facts not in evidence.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)I absolutely believe being bullied (not just by other kids, but by feeling bullied by society and the world) could be a trigger for something like this in someone so young.
Obviously "guns and by the American fetishization of guns" exacerbates the situation, but I don't think it's a "period, full stop" type of situation.
EVERYONE is subjected to that fetishization. Very few of us go on shooting rampages as a result. Your assertion saying in essence 'that's all there is to it' doesn't quite hold up IMHO.
There's always going to be something more than that, and being bullied is a logical potential trigger.
Whether or not 'being bullied' is just an excuse for an inherently evil person to act out their evil is a valid question though in some cases I'm sure. Maybe some people are bullied because they actually are evil pieces of shit and everyone hates them cause they suck. That could happen too.
Caliman73
(11,744 posts)Multiple things go into a person's decision to engage in such an act of violence. Access to firearms certainly makes it easier. I have had access to firearms almost my entire life and have never considered engaging in such an act. I have been in fights. I was bullied by adult relatives. I knew and hung out with people in gangs. There were many factors that could have lead me to a path of violence.
I had a loving and strict grandmother who kept me away from joining a gang. My parents tried to provide me with support and encouragement to achieve in school and sports. I got counseling for my anger for being bullied.
Violence was a part of my life into young adulthood, but I left that behind and try to avoid any potential violent scenarios now. Just a few changes, a few positive people or experiences can make the difference between my situation and becoming a mass shooter, a gang member, or other violent person.
Yes, easy access to guns and the fetishization of guns and violence are a problem and need to be addressed in any solution. They are not the only problem.
Scrivener7
(51,007 posts)Or by anyone, for that matter?
Do those countries not have teenagers? Are there not bullies in those countries?
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216725317
(For any who might not want to link to EarlG's post, the USA has had 288 school shootings this year. The next most numerous number of school shootings were in Mexico with 8. EIGHT.)
So yes. 18 year olds. Because it only happens here and only we have the gun fetish.
Guns. Period. Full stop.
If you believe it is ANYTHING else, like bullying or mental health or whateverthefuck else, it's because you have been programmed to believe that.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)Scrivener7
(51,007 posts)Everything else is noise designed to confuse the issue.
LizBeth
(9,952 posts)women.
I am betting he was groomed by a combination of right-wing toxic masculinity and a feeling of entitlement when it comes to relationships with the opposite sex. When things didn't work out the way he believed they should, and having bathed in a culture that fetishes guns, and the radical right that now openly brandishes guns to intimidate or otherwise "get what they want", the radical right-wing Republicans helped create this monster.
Demsrule86
(68,672 posts)Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)Thomas Hurt
(13,903 posts)The bigotry du jour popular now a days.
Celerity
(43,501 posts)Claustrum
(4,846 posts)South Korean entertainment industry have many celebrities who gets in trouble for their past bullying controversies which ended a lot of their careers. But you don't see the victims going out and shooting people or creating mass murder events.
I am not saying bullying, mental health, poverty aren't a problem in the US. But school shootings and mass shooting events are unique in US because our gun control laws are non-existent.
Baitball Blogger
(46,758 posts)brush
(53,868 posts)nor the bullies could get them and gun down 21 innocents.
The republicans and their NRA/gun industry sponsors want to keep it that way so gun sales are uninterrupted. That's the bottom line.
betsuni
(25,618 posts)Mental health problems and poverty are problems too. Doesn't turn people into murderers.
jimfields33
(15,954 posts)86 percent graduate high school. He was a troubled young man. The situation is highly sad.
hunter
(38,327 posts)If that makes you feel better.
jimfields33
(15,954 posts)grumpyduck
(6,259 posts)what his story is. He made the decision to kill people at a school.
AFAIC, he was just a fucking coward murderer.
Scrivener7
(51,007 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,893 posts)I agree on the proliferation of guns (access).
But being bullied? Not acceptable.
Ruby Bridges never took a gun and shot anyone.
Ditto Sonnie Hereford IV.
LeftinOH
(5,358 posts)in this scenario.
wryter2000
(46,082 posts)He could not have done it without that particular weapon.
agingdem
(7,857 posts)this 18 year old kid opened fire and killed children because he was poor and bullied?...no no no..this 18 year old walked into a gun shop and walked out with a gun..no questions asked...I don't give a shit about this 18 year old kid's motivation/his mental health..this 18 year old kid walked into a gun shop and walked out with a gun because Greg Abbott said he could, because the assholes that voted for Abbott said he could...take your "hearts and minds" crap and shove it up your collective complicit asses...
kentuck
(111,110 posts)Poverty is when you don't know where the next meal is coming from.
Being poor is different from being in poverty.
Baitball Blogger
(46,758 posts)Where did he get the money?
Probably did something criminally unacceptable to get it.
maxsolomon
(33,400 posts)He could have used his Grandmas.
sarisataka
(18,770 posts)They want a simple "solution" to a complex problem.
Are guns a part of the problem? Definitely are much should have been done years ago. But simply removing guns doesn't solve the problems in schools.
My son is currently in a private high-school thanks to the generosity of a relative who passed away several years back. I will not claim the school is perfect but the school does pay attention to students and takes disciplinary measures.
I have several friends who are parents of children who went through elementary school with mine. Their kids go to public schools, some are "inner-city' some are "good " suburban schools. They all tell the same stories are their children's experiences.
Bullying is endemic and usually racially based. Physical assault of a student is a daily occurrence. Sexual harassment is routine all day every day. If a student goes to a teacher they are told either "just ignore it" or "you bring it on yourself". If it's reported by a student to admin, they are told if they can bring in witnesses it will be looked into. Parents who offer to complain to the school are told by their kids, "don't, that will only make it worse".
So how do the kids handle it? One is to simply take the abuse, say nothing, be a victim repeatedly and try to make it through four years. The other is to find a group who is willing to have your back and help protect you from those outside your group. At least that limits the people who will abuse you as these groups have pecking orders.
In my mind it seems less like we send our kids to high-school and more that we sentence them to it.
I have encouraged one of the parents to get her child therapy; he is one I could picture seeing in the news some day.
grumpyduck
(6,259 posts)And a few of them decided to pick on me. Early on, I got into fights with a couple of them, and then later somehow discovered that just letting them know I wasn't interested in being bullied was far easier on the knuckles. How did I do it? Just didn't take them seriously. Bullies feed on fear, so I just let them know they weren't getting to me. They moved on and found someone else.
The same thing happened with a couple of assholes in basic training at Ft Polk LA.
H2O Man
(73,605 posts)You raise some interesting points for discussion, with a couple of errors. If he had dropped out of school, of course, he wouldn't have been angry that he had not graduated a day (or days) with his class. "Poverty" is relative, of course, and over half of the students at the school were reportedly from low-income families. One might speculate that most of those students could not afford the two guns this guy did on his 18th birthday. And dispite initial attempts by the media to make sense of Columbine, those two were not bullied.
But more importantly, we are at a point where almost every public school (and community) has at least one young man who inhabits the margins. Most will not engage in mass murder. But some will, and there is ample reason to think that the escalation in mass shootings will continue to gain steam in the near future. While most people are troubled by yesterday's horror, and feel for the many victims, dead and alive, there are those who identify with the killer as they watch the news.
Baitball Blogger
(46,758 posts)It will be interesting to see how much poverty played a role in his decisions. I know it's too early to tell. But I think that whatever maladaption, (misadaption?) he had, is only going to get worse under the present school movements we see with Republican governors.
And, of course, getting his hands on those guns was a major factor on how things turned out. Still want to know how he bought them. Where did he get the money?
H2O Man
(73,605 posts)I think we will get more information by the weekend, as well as some rumors and misinformation. I think it will be hard for republicans to argue that Amendment 2 is intended to protect this guy's "rights." Instead, they will try to mislead the public, with things like school prayer, the border, and Clinton's e-mails.
I've noticed some DU:GD OPs that result in the types of interesting and valuable discussions that used to be common on this forum. Your's is one of them, and I thank you for that. While laws are important, and would decrease the chances of a person like this accessing the type of weapons he had, it is not the only factor -- exactly as you noted.
Baitball Blogger
(46,758 posts)Means more than you'll ever realize!
CousinIT
(9,257 posts)Joe became POTUS. Bottom line is that Ramos should NOT have been able to obtain an assault weapon.
It's not bullying that is the common thread among mass shooters. It is hatred of women, as another person here said. I was bullied as a kid. So were a lot of us. School kids are mean, tribal assholes. It has always been that way. The availability of guns and misogyny and racism are bigger issues. The Buffalo shooter wanted to murder as many black people as possible.
Sorry but bullying - in my admittedly worthless opinion - isn't the issue.
Dukkha
(7,341 posts)Not mental health or bullying or violent video games or prayers in schools.
Guns don't kill people do, but the guns mass kill people. Period.
Matthew28
(1,798 posts)to carry out their actions in a violent and deadly manner.
Matthew28
(1,798 posts)Treating people with respect can save a lot of lives. Not everyone is perfect, but if they're not then a hell of a lot of our kids are abused emotionally day in and day out. It isn't right. A lot of these abused kids stop wanting to be part of society(become loners to escape) and some of them become vengeful and hateful. That doesn't lead to good things.
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)I am SICK of the excuses that are CONSTANTLY made. You think the US is the ONLY place kids have these issues? Yet miraculously, other countries DO NOT have the mass shooting the US does.
BComplex
(8,065 posts)Bullies need to be placed in therapy at an early age, at the first sign of their tendency to bully. There is NO excuse for allowing kids to go to school and face bullying.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,965 posts)Nobody liked them because THEY were the asshole bullies.
And bullying has caused NO school shootings. Just stop. It's not true and it's victim blaming and it's gross.
hunter
(38,327 posts)The bullies started calling me "queerbait" in seventh grade and it was a name that stuck.
"Get out of my way, queerbait."
Quitting high school was one of the best decisions I ever made.
It never occurred to me that guns would solve my problems.
Curiously, among my siblings, it's my sister and I who both quit high school, who have the very respectable university degrees.
Our siblings who "fit in" to their high school environments have two year associate degrees or certifications and landed in the trades and/or business.
I was exposed to hunting/fishing culture, but not gun fetish culture.
I'm not sure we can blame this on bullying. Girls are bullied as often as boys, worse at times, and they don't do this.
It's colored by my personal experiences, I know, but I still think what some people call "toxic masculinity" is the underlying cause of this.
That combined with easy access to guns is a deadly combination.
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)Bravo!
Response to Baitball Blogger (Original post)
pinkstarburst This message was self-deleted by its author.
AlexSFCA
(6,139 posts)Baitball Blogger
(46,758 posts)But half of this country's population is unreasonable.
maxsolomon
(33,400 posts)Clearly Ramos was alienated, suicidal, and filled with homicidal anger. We're the only nation in the world that hands these alienated adolescents high-powered semi-automatic arsenals with no supervision.
Rampage Shootings have a purpose: make others suffer the way you have been made to suffer. To make the world feel your pain. To make the world hurt like you hurt. Achieve infamy with your death.
I'm going to say this plainly: teenage MALES have no business possessing Semi-Automatic Firearms - unless they're in the military.
Baitball Blogger
(46,758 posts)hunter
(38,327 posts)For anyone here who thinks that kind of "disciplined environment" is the answer.
maxsolomon
(33,400 posts)I get that the military doesn't want "Full Metal Jacket" unstable youths, but there are other kinds of adolescent shooters - shootings over disrespect or territory, or robberies. "Inner City", or "gang" shootings, as they're commonly called.
Plus stupid, unnecessary robbery shootings over phones, or car jackings.
All of them make teenage MALES emotionally unfit to possess Semi-Automatic firearms without supervision. Not just rampage shooters.
LeftInTX
(25,555 posts)Uvalde is already rather poor
It's rather redneck/rural small town Hispanics (Mexican-Americans - Tejanos).
Most of the guys are probably more on the macho side.
If they thought he was gay, that could be another reason.
Being poor would not be a reason for bullying in Uvalde