Holy fucking shit, he was inside for 40 minutes and the cops were afraid to go in!

[Novara]

Last edited Thu May 26, 2022, 12:06 PM - Edit history (1)

Onlookers urged police to charge into Texas school

UVALDE, Texas (AP) — Frustrated onlookers urged police officers to charge into the Texas elementary school where a gunman’s rampage killed 19 children and two teachers, witnesses said Wednesday, as investigators worked to track the massacre that lasted upwards of 40 minutes and ended when the 18-year-old shooter was killed by a Border Patrol team.

“Go in there! Go in there!” nearby women shouted at the officers soon after the attack began, said Juan Carranza, 24, who saw the scene from outside his house, across the street from Robb Elementary School in the close-knit town of Uvalde. Carranza said the officers did not go in.

Javier Cazares, whose fourth grade daughter, Jacklyn Cazares, was killed in the attack, said he raced to the school when he heard about the shooting, arriving while police were still gathered outside the building.

Upset that police were not moving in, he raised the idea of charging into the school with several other bystanders.

“Let’s just rush in because the cops aren’t doing anything like they are supposed to,” he said. “More could have been done.”

There's more in the link: https://apnews.com/article/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-44a7cfb990feaa6ffe482483df6e4683

Un-fucking-believable.

[Walleye]

1. Total clusterfuck

[AnnetteChaffee]

99. Did anyone hear

that there was some really awful stuff that happened - so bad that they aren't releasing the details. Horrific stuff. I saw one interview with someone who had the details and he said that he couldn't talk about it because it was so traumatizing. I think this is going to be allot more traumatic than we even can imagine. My heart weeps and I can only hope and pray that their little souls left their bodies before impact.

I have 5 grandchildren, 3 under the age of 10. This is so horrifying to me - i literally HATE the GOP and the gun nuts. I HATE THEM.

Annette in God Help Me Florida

[Walleye]

104. I don't think most people can imagine the kind of damage this kind of weapon does to the human body

A fellow photographer at a paper I worked for covered a suicide where the man put the shotgun under his chin. I don’t really want to describe what it looked like

[Crunchy Frog]

150. It needs to be talked about. Our society NEEDS to know all the horrifying details.

We can't keep hiding from this.

[leftyladyfrommo]

102. They always are. Situations are just too volatile and

frightening and everything just goes to shit. There is no way to really train for something this horrific.

[Walleye]

103. Exactly. I hate when people brag about what they would've done

People have no idea how they would react in a situation like this. Having covered crime scenes for the news you can see it always goes to shit like you said

[leftyladyfrommo]

105. People just panic. I know I would. I would be diving

for cover. I think your instinct is just to survive and all your training goes out the window.

I just can't imagine how awful it would be to get caught in a situation like that.

[anarch]

127. this is why constant training is crucial, so that muscle memory takes over

and one can respond appropriately as a reflex. But we don't do that here, we just have armed goons drive around and harass and/or kill poor people and their dogs

[leftyladyfrommo]

147. I read that the guy just shoved his way in. Some poor

Security guard wouldn't have a chance against that kind of fire power.

I thought police were not supposed to go in until proper back up got there?

I just feel ike it's not fair to be blaming when the blame needs to be focused on the crazy shooter.

It's just such an unbelievable situation. It's like being caught in your worst nightmare. No one should ever have to live through something like this.

[malaise]

2. Why were they afraid?

Abbott was so sure he had a hand gun,but thought he might have had a rifle. Turns out he had two rifles and lots of ammo. This latest report is proof that he was heavily armed.
Abbott is a lying monster.

[Jarqui]

22. The police response (or really lack of timely response) is telling

They know these weapons are so dangerous that even they haven't got a very good chance against them.
Their actions speak louder than words.
Ignoring the fact of course that they should have found a way to get in there much sooner.

So why is a mentally ill 18 year old allowed to buy two of them?
The right of the mentally ill to bear arms?

Why are we selling weapons to the general public that the average police have a very slim chance against?

Where does this insanity stop?
Can one of these nuts legally arm himself with a dirty nuke? Why not?

[Amishman]

28. The police had the same weapons, just about every police car has an AR-15 in it these days

I'd imagine that to be especially likely in Texas

It comes down to fear and self preservation. They chose their own safety over that of the children.

[Jarqui]

55. I didn't know that

That is even more damning of the GOP position - that armed guards protect the kids.
And those cops should be ashamed of themselves - armed like that and did nothing - sat on their hands while kids were being blown away. (if that is the case - I haven't got all the facts confirmed so I want to be careful about passing judgement)

In war, the military might blow up the gunman's position with artillery, an air strike, some explosive projectile, etc. That's not an option for a school full of kids. Which further underscores why these weapons should not be sold to anyone.

I am beginning to wonder if the 2nd amendment interpretation is really to protect the GOP and the whites who are losing ground in the demographics daily. Maybe Jan 6th was just a rehearsal.

Imagine what the gun laws might be if every black in America got an AR-15 and a case of ammo ... I'd bet big on the gun laws changing then.

No other country is going through this craziness.

New guns laws won't solve it completely. There are about a hundred million more guns in America than Americans. It is going to take generations.

I've been witnessing these mass shootings for about 60 years. It doesn't get any easier.

[Amishman]

71. I have to disagree with you about the racial component

I live in a red area and my wife's family is loaded with gun nut republicans.

When the topic has come up, I've posed that same scenario of minorities arming themselves and buying assault rifles. They're response was that it would be a good thing because then 'the dems' might have to stop trying to take everyone's guns away.

As I've commented before, there are a lot fewer true racists (hating directly on the basis of race) on the right than many here presume. What is extremely common is cultural discrimination / hate, a refusal to accept and hostility towards those with different values from themselves. For that crowd, people with black or brown skin buying guns would be welcome because it would be removing a cultural difference.

[Jarqui]

94. Sometimes I don't know what to think anymore.

This much I do know: whatever level of racism/hate, there still is way too much of it.
Republicans in the US Senate seem riddled with it. TFG.
It seemed to trickle down through the MAGA crowd.
It is not a little problem.

[wnylib]

98. I can't agree that there are "a lot fewer true racists"

(hating directly on the basis of race) on the right than many here presume."

First, I disagree with that definition of so called "true racism." All racisn is "true" racism. Some racists are overtly belligerent about it, some are not. But the number of hate groups and their members in this country are larger than many believe. Check out the SPLC website. Read the book, Bring the War Home. Plenty of racists who are willing to have a civil war over race.

I am white. There isn't a white person in this country who has not heard at some time (often more than once) another white person speak disparagingly about African Americans and other minorities. Speech is not violence, but it can arouse violence and it indicates someone's ability to be aroused to violence by more aggressive racists.

11 million people voted for Donald Trump in 2020 after 4 years of his overt racism and open acceptance of support from white nationalists. Even if not overtly belligerent about race themselves, they were willing to support those who are.

[Jarqui]

108. I'm white

Been against racism since I became aware of it as a young teenager.
Participated in demonstrations supporting MLK in the 60s - for example.
Barack Obama was hands down my favorite politician of my lifetime. I never regarded him as "black" until CNN made a fuss about a poll of blacks not supporting him during the primaries.

My folks were racist - out of ignorance - they didn't see a black man during the first couple of decades of their lives.
My father really cooled it over time and recognized how wrong it was.
My mother became a gigantic fan of Obama ... so people can change.

I continue to question whether I have aspects of racism still lurking within me.
It's like a constant vigilance or questioning ... and therefore, there's probably a bit still there.

[anarch]

119. I'd have to sort of disagree on one point: I think speech sometimes *can* be violence

which is why we should not ever tolerate hate speech

[wnylib]

130. Good point.

[90-percent]

100. from memory

"Imagine what the gun laws might be if every black in America got an AR-15 and a case of ammo ... I'd bet big on the gun laws changing then. "

i think in the late 60's the california black panthers were asserting their "second amendment rights" by brandishing semi or fully automatic rifles in front of the statehouse? automatic weapons were banned in cali shortly afterwards. when reagan was gov.

-90% Jimmy

[Jarqui]

109. I remember that. nt

[inthewind21]

135. exactly right

[anarch]

118. their job is not to protect children, it is to "enforce the law" by protecting private property

and maintaining the status quo. The only people charged with protecting children in this case were the teachers, and they did their best.

[inthewind21]

136. Really?

The why do they get involved in murder cases?

[anarch]

146. that is enforcing the law after the fact; that is part of their job too

but it has been established pretty clearly in court that they are not mandated to protect people from violence--they are of course allowed to do so if they happen to be there and feel like they can be bothered with it, but that's not their job

[LeftInTX]

152. I don't think they anticipated or trained for this in Uvalde

Uvalde is a lame place

I think they do have concerns with border related crimes and probably train for that.

They probably just could not picture some mentally ill young man breaking into and shooting up an elementary school.

They probably had some preparedness for high school and middle school

They probably thought the Adam Lanza case was an "East Coast Problem".

[malaise]

38. And yet the governor was not sure that

he had a rifle - he had two - go figure.

There is nothing suggesting this young man was mentally ill - he was depraved. He couldn't wait for his 18th birthday to purchase assault rifles, shoot his grandma and then the kids. He planned this out using Abbott's gun laws..

[Novara]

45. Anger issues, testosterone, and assault weapons

Duh.

[malaise]

49. I hope his grandma survives

I’m betting he stole grandma’s money or used her credit card to buy his murder weapons.

[inthewind21]

137. She died

He shot her in the face. At least that was what was reported on the news.

[malaise]

149. We're not getting the truth

This is looking like one big cover-up

[gldstwmn]

156. She is reported to be alive this afternoon unless she passed in the last hour since I looked.

[Jarqui]

56. How could a mentally healthy person blow away 19 children and two teachers?

That just doesn't compute for me.

[malaise]

62. That is a rational,question for those of us who would never contemplate

planning the execution of any animal, let alone kids.
That said there are many depraved people on this planet.

[Novara]

66. We can say that because we're not full of rage and testosterone

But he had no documented mental health issues.

This was caused by the way too easy availability of guns to teenagers with raging testosterone.

[Jarqui]

83. It is quite common that shooters like this do not have documented mental health issues.

Mental health professionals deflect to defend their work by saying more or less "it is not our fault we didn't diagnose them". And I don't fault them. They point out that we can't rely on them to catch people like this. They stress there are other factors and we can't ignore them to deal with this properly. There is merit to that. Hindsight is 20/20 where they can figure out potential mental health issues with a bunch of them after the fact.

It does seem to come around to the old legal debate "do we institutionalize this shooter in a mental hospital or a prison?" (the insanity defense). I get all that.

I just cannot shake that the notion the vast majority of these "depraved" shooters of innocent children are just plain fucked in the head - ignoring whatever semantics of "mental illness".

[Novara]

93. I think a good portion of our populace is "fucked in the head"

They don't have a diagnosable mental illness but there's definitely a "fucked in the head" a strain of insanity underlying a lot of shit these days. The GQP conspiracies are fucking insane, the cult of the orange motherfucker are insane, and the extreme selfishness, greed, self-promotion, arrogance, and aggressiveness of too many people is killing our country.

I place quite a bit of blame of normalizing bad behavior in much of the reality TV we've seen over the years - the goal seems to be making money and a profit over showing people fighting and arguing and generally being shitty to each other, and that's called entertainment. Add social media where everyone has a voice and everyone's opinion suddenly is SO VERY IMPORTANT, and people start feeling that whatever comes into their heads is OK and important and valid. THEN the orange motherfucker comes along and blows what's left of the social contract apart. He teaches them it's OK to hate, they don't need to be embarrassed, they don't need to keep it in the shadows. It's far easier for a lot of people to express hate than it is to express love and tolerance and they've been "blessed" by the "president" to express their hate.

Add the unbelievably easy access of guns and this is predictable.

[Jarqui]

96. And then they disallow learning about the past in schools

of how we got to this point ... which is a recipe for continuing it.

Or we have a media controlled by a very few.

The trajectory of where this is going is not good.
It feels like a battle we are losing. I keep fighting but we seem powerless to stop it.
Very troubling.

[anarch]

125. our society is broken; people in general are hopeless, alienated and feel essentially powerless

society as a whole certainly dropped the ball as far as this murdering little asshole goes. I hate it here.

[The Jungle 1]

111. What does not compute is why just in America????

[betsuni]

116. Opportunity and culture.

Guns easy to get and everybody wants to be famous for fifteen minutes, no matter for what.

[Jarqui]

151. That too maybe

But we can point to the GOP, the NRA, etc for some explanation.

A mentally healthy person blowing away 19 little kids?

One could describe a rabid dog as 'evil' or 'depraved' but there is much more to it and why it came about than that.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-08-04/el-paso-dayton-gilroy-mass-shooters-data

For two years, we’ve been studying the life histories of mass shooters in the United States for a project funded by the National Institute of Justice, the research arm of the U.S. Department of Justice. We’ve built a database dating back to 1966 of every mass shooter who shot and killed four or more people in a public place, and every shooting incident at schools, workplaces, and places of worship since 1999. We’ve interviewed incarcerated perpetrators and their families, shooting survivors and first responders. We’ve read media and social media, manifestos, suicide notes, trial transcripts and medical records.

First, the vast majority of mass shooters in our study experienced early childhood trauma and exposure to violence at a young age. The nature of their exposure included parental suicide, physical or sexual abuse, neglect, domestic violence, and/or severe bullying. The trauma was often a precursor to mental health concerns, including depression, anxiety, thought disorders or suicidality.

Second, practically every mass shooter we studied had reached an identifiable crisis point in the weeks or months leading up to the shooting. ....

Third, most of the shooters had studied the actions of other shooters and sought validation for their motives. ...

Fourth, the shooters all had the means to carry out their plans. ...

.....
Most mass public shooters are suicidal, and their crises are often well known to others before the shooting occurs.
....

That study covering every mass shooting in the US since 1966 strongly leans on mental health issues based upon the facts they uncovered for the vast majority of the cases.

[The Jungle 1]

158. I think we agree but I want to clarify my point.

Other countries have the exact same experiences with mental illness.
BUT only in America do people walk into schools to shoot and mutilate babies!
I believe your fourth point is the one that nails it. We allow to many weapons of mass destruction. We do it for political gain and financial gain. The result is dead and mutilated babies in schools.

[Jarqui]

160. I generally agree

"Other countries have the exact same experiences with mental illness."

I'd rephrase that sentence as "Most countries have roughly similar experiences with mental illness." Not a major disagreement with you. It is probably a fairer/more accurate statement.

There have been similar incidents in other countries. But unlike the US, those governments responded attempting to reduce the risks - often with gun control (ie background checks, assault weapons restrictions, permits, registration, etc), school security, student & teacher education on the issue, improved policing & police policies, and mental health measures - that have proven to have delivered much lower incidents of this behavior over time.

There are statistics that back up this claim (list below ignores countries that had no mass shooting incidents)
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/united-states-lower-death-shootings/

Typical (Median) Annual Death Rate per Million People from Mass Public Shootings (U.S., Canada, and Europe, 2009-2015):
United States — 0.058
Albania — 0
Austria — 0
Belgium — 0
Czech Republic — 0
Finland — 0
France — 0
Germany — 0
Italy — 0
Macedonia — 0
Netherlands — 0
Norway — 0
Russia — 0
Serbia — 0
Slovakia — 0
Switzerland — 0
United Kingdom — 0

The point that is overlooked in those numbers is the US is a very wealthy country by comparison and has the resources to be the best in the world. Of course, Democrats made similar arguments like that on Covid deaths or deaths due to lack of health care. Republicans do not care about that.

The Declaration of Independence talked about "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." for everyone - not just the gun owners. What "life, liberty & .. pursuit of happiness" do these dead school kids get? Or the folks killed by those not vaccinated or wearing masks? Or the folks who die because they can't get healthcare?

The notion of "arm everybody" fails because the US civilians are already the most heavily armed on the planet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country
So it has long been proven that heavily arming citizens does not curtail kids being massacred in schools.

This is pretty fundamental stuff most countries have figured out and implemented corrective action on.
There is no good excuse for the United States, with the resources it has, to not have these things.
When a country cannot protect its little school kids, again and again and again, that's pretty bad. It is way beyond a disgrace.
Why aren't Republicans embarrassed about this? Or sick with disgust at the needless, obscene agony of these broken fellow American families?
I've been asking the same questions, as have much of America, since the 1966 University of Texas tower shooting.
I don't get it. I'll never understand it.

[The Jungle 1]

161. Is it is as simple as the gun lobby and their campaign money?

If it is we have lost our republic. The oligarchic's have won.
However we can take it back. They still must let us vote.

[Jarqui]

162. I think it is bigger than that.

"The gun lobby and their campaign money" is an accomplice.
The oligarchs are winning.

They're going to make people think they're getting to vote.

But with the things going on at the state level that can override the electoral college votes, I'm no longer confident those individual votes will count as they should.

This is collectively happening across many states. It is not an accident. It is a coordinated effort. Pretend there is voter fraud to put something into place to steal electoral college votes. They attempted this Jan 6th. Next time, they'll have new GOP state laws to enable them.

The demographic trend was unfavorable to them. As they see it, there is no other way for their policies or way of life to survive. "all men are created equal" is not how they really see it or want it to turn out. For a bunch, the civil was is not over.

The GOP have control of the vast majority of the media - the great arbiter for democracy. So the game may be already over even if it hasn't played out yet. Biden's lower approval numbers are a result of that. Biden's approval is similar to Trump's. There's no way Joe has done as poorly as Trump in executing his job.

Their safety valve for when folks figure this out (some already have), and they eventually will, is to have their side heavily armed. It seems to be about if their side loses control, they can take matters into their own hands - as a number have threatened to do.

Not getting their way on abortion, gun rights, voting rights, immigration, etc are being presented as if they're losing their country (MAGA) to gin them up for the fight. Outsiders like Putin are gleefully stoking it as the US could crumble without an external shot being fired with Russian trolls stoking the fight.

Democrats are not up for this - they're blindly not expecting it. They're faithfully trying to make the constitution work as it says it should - following the law. For a bunch in the GOP, it is not working out that way and they are setting up to take their country back.

I suspect Obama and now Kamala getting elected stirred the pot some. The racists heads were exploding - being subservient to a 'slave' (or something lesser than them). In 2008, during the election, I did a google search for Obama and the n-word. Millions and millions of hits. Racism is very much alive and well in America.

I think this is much bigger than the NRA & gun lobby money.
There were a lot of people who enabled Trump becoming president and remaining as president.
There were a lot of people who were behind Trump on Jan 6th, 2021.
That wasn't about guns.
A bunch of the GOP have doubled down on the concept of Jan 6th hoping to 'get it right' next time.
Guns give them a sense of security to 'fight for their country' and coalesce around

[The Jungle 1]

163. Supporting you position is this.

We were completely surprised by the way repukes across the nation gerrymandered districts. It was a well orchestrated nationwide plan that we never saw until they pulled it off.

[fescuerescue]

132. Perhaps. But the cops all have similiar or better weapons themselvs

What chance does a kid with an AR15 have against a platoon of cops with AR15s?

[inthewind21]

134. Why do you think he was mentally ill?

Police said no history of mental illness? That's easily check with medical records. But suddenly now he's mentally ill. Do you think Charles Manson was mentally ill? No, not according to the medical professional who assessed him and declared he was competent to stand trial. THINKING someone is mentally ill is a long stretch from them actually being mentally ill.

[ruet]

82. They Shoot People For Grabbing Their Drivers Licenses and Claim They Feared for Their Life.

They are afraid of everything.

[Samrob]

88. And it seems like cops are only good at shooting unarmed black men. nt

[malaise]

106. They are going to have to answer why

they failed to enter that classroom for so long. Sickening.

[inthewind21]

138. I highly doubt it

The will answer for anything. They are being praised for being hero's. Remember, "it could have been worse if not for the brave heroics of the police." Quote from Greg Abbot in yesterdays asinine presser with 30 bubbas standing behind him. I'm surprised they weren't all holding AR's.

[Srkdqltr]

3. The school wasn't locked. He should not have been able to get in.

[In It to Win It]

57. That's difficult to do for a school with a wide open campus and multiple buildings

I don’t know what Robb Elementary looks like but if it was anything like any school I’ve ever attended, that would be near impossible.

[Srkdqltr]

61. The school my granddaughter goes to has several doors.

They are all locked. If you want to go in you go to the main door and ring the buzzer.
During arrival and dismissal the doors are unlocked.
During recess some doors are unlocked. It is not difficult.
Doors can open from the inside.

[In It to Win It]

80. All of my K-12 schools, once you get past the gate surrounding the campus

You can access just about any classroom because the classroom doors are exposed to the outside. After getting past the gate, you don’t need to go through any doors or main entrances to get to classrooms. You can get to classrooms upstairs and downstairs, and freely roam the halls. All of that was on the exterior of the buildings.

For example, my high school felt like a large university style campus. The gate surrounding the building had several entrances for the student and teacher parking lots, an entrance for schools buses, and several small entrances throughout for people to walk through. Some of the walkthrough entrances can’t be locked because they aren’t designed that way. Hypothetically, if someone wanted to come onto the campus, they could hop the fence. The classrooms in each buildings led outside, and not to the interior of a larger building. Therefore, each individual classroom had to be locked, rather than a building containing multiple classrooms with one or two main entrances, to thwart a shooter.

[uponit7771]

101. Is this recent? Where I live (a dictatorship red state) the doors to the schools are double entry ..

... and camera rung in front of bullet proof glass.

There's no way people would send their kids to school in this state if the schools weren't locked down because its easier to get a gun than it is to vote.

[In It to Win It]

107. This isn't recent. I live in Florida. We had a shooting at my school in 2008

I graduated high school in 2010. We actually had a school shooting in 2008. One student, a girl, was shot and killed. I just met this girl maybe a few weeks prior to the shooting. The shooter, another girl that also attended our school, brought a small handgun to school specifically to shoot this girl. I remember I was at lunch in the cafeteria when it happened, and the school went into lock down. They told us to stay in the cafeteria, students were told to remain in classrooms and teachers were told to lock their classroom doors. We had no idea what happened or why we were in lock down. Once they let us out of the we can see the area right in front of the building where it happened had the yellow tape, and the girl who had been shot, her backpack was still on the ground. I remember it pretty vividly. It was on the news, and the next day we had news helicopter hovering over the school as we were participating in an impromptu memorial for the victim. My mother asked me was I scared to go back to school.

My high school had 10 buildings (that I can remember), and 8 of them had classrooms. Of the 8 buildings with classrooms, 2 of them are buildings with the double-door main entrances with classrooms that open to an interior hallway that can be locked down. All other buildings, the stairwells, halls and corridors were on the exterior. The classroom doors for the other buildings led to exterior halls. Maybe recently, they have closed and limited the walkthrough entrances in the gates.

[uponit7771]

112. WOW !! There should no doubt be some procedures to protect schools in these areas that ...

... have laxed mass kill weapon laws.

[liberalla]

68. I was wondering about that... how/why did he have such easy access?

[Samrob]

89. Not an excuse for having a man with an assault weapon inside for 40 mins.

What else is there as an excuse? Every reason in the world except easy, ridiculous access to assault weapons. I guess outside concert venues should be locked too?

[uponit7771]

97. +1,

[Emile]

4. The good guy with a gun argument lost on this slaughter!

[70sEraVet]

60. Absolutely!

[lapfog_1]

5. The cops sacrificed everyone in the classroom

"they kept him contained" but did nothing to try and save the kids or teachers trapped in that room with him.

Yeah, maybe it would have been suicide to break in and face a guy armed with an assault rifle and all you have is a side arm pistol. But fuck it... those were children in there.

[ProfessorGAC]

11. I'm Not Willing To Go There

It's entirely possible that he busted in, killed that classroom, cops showed up & he was trapped in that classroom.
I see it likely that a guy who shot his grandmother, crashed his far, shot at bystanders near the funeral home, and ran into the school with guns, would have opened fire immediately upon entering.
I need to see way more evidence that the cops' delay resulted in those little kids being killed.
My guess is they were already dead.

[ShazzieB]

16. I think you may be right.

It doesn't take anywhere near 40 minutes to shoot that many people with a gun that can fire hundreds of rounds a minute.

Sorry to put it so crudely, but them's the facts.

[lapfog_1]

17. some apparently survived.

at least one girl who was covered in blood... exited to the waiting medics. She wasn't hurt BUT said her best friend was shot and not moving. That best friend was the daughter of the medic treating her (interview on CNN).

If the shooter entered and started shooting everyone right away... and had 40 minutes before the BP tactical team entered and killed him... he should have been able to kill them all. He had plenty of ammo (7 30 round mags).

The cops will not come out as the heroes... this may end up to be another "Parkland" shooting where the SRO (and also police deputy) hid outside the building where the shooter was killing kids... and stayed there for the entire incident.

The NRA and the GQP assholes keep talking about "a good guy with a gun"... but that doesn't help much if the good guy doesn't try to kill or disarm the bad guy.

In this case we had numerous police and at least one SRO on scene from the beginning. Nobody even tried to get into the classroom the shooter entered.

[Probatim]

24. In this case, some of these officers are likely to suffer long term effects of this attack

and the wait time to counter the assault.

There were several suicides among the Capitol police team - and that was just a bunch of tourists. This was infinitely worse and they stood around with their d*cks in their hands while the kid shot up the place.

[lapfog_1]

26. what about the children that survived.

and children all over the USA.

PTSD before puberty.

[Probatim]

29. I don't even want to think about that - so I didn't post about it.

There's a lot of anger toward the police in this instance and it's warranted. They're going to have to look their neighbors in the eye and explain why they waited for so long. That's only going to happen for so long before they turn on themselves.

Yesterday's shitshow of a press conference put on by Abbott shows they know they fucked this up. Abbott and his crew will do everything to keep the officers quiet and that'll speed up the impact of the tragedies about to come for these officers.

[Paladin]

44. Give those kids some thought, and here's another thought for you:

Those cops in Uvalde signed up and were paid for this sort of dangerous activity---and when it really counted, they failed. If they suffer for the rest of their lives because of that, it serves them right.

[Probatim]

52. The cops did sign up for it - and they are going to pay for their inaction.

Sleepless night, alcoholism, anger from their neighbors. They will suffer for the rest of their lives and their lives won't be as long as you'd expect.

As a side note, I'm pretty fucking angry over this whole incident. That 21 people were murdered by a teenager is an absolute tragedy. That Abbott and his minions show up the next day for a sham event is a tragedy. That armed law enforcement and politicians had courage to stand up to Beto but not for these children is a travesty. So if my thoughts are a bit muddled and my point isn't exactly clear, at least I know why (and maybe others now).

[LonePirate]

72. I care about the innocent children those cops left to fend for themselves. F*** those cops.

If they aren’t willing to protect our children then they have no business being police officers. They forfeited any empathy I had for them when they decided it was OK to let those kids die.

[malaise]

51. Frightening indeed n/t

[uponit7771]

115. +1, IINM the current policy is *NOT* to wait but confront the shooter right away!!

[2naSalit]

18. There were...

A couple kids who hid and lived, I wonder what they have to say and whether this will be looked at.

[stopdiggin]

34. this is the EPITOME of Monday morning quarterbacking

(and not even particularly smart quarterbacking at that) And if the police HAD gone in there willy-nilly, gunz ablazin' - you can bet people would be screaming their heads off about that as well.

Have to say I'm kind of disappointed in (some) of our DU going with this kind of low-info dreck. Constructive criticism, yes. But this is knee jerk nonsense. We don't have any indication at all that this was a matter of 'sacrifice' or cowardice. We need to be better.

[867-5309.]

74. Would a video help?

Link to tweet

?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1529709651297652736%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2F%3Fcom%3Dview_postforum%3D1002pid%3D16729881

[stopdiggin]

154. not in the slightest

the idea that LE should be taking their cue from what the 'crowd' is advocating - is perhaps even more silly than arguing they deliberately 'sacrificed' children.

Emotions are going to run high (with every justification for that) - but please get a grip!

[inthewind21]

139. There's plenty

of information out there. May I suggest you actually seek some of it. Open mouth, insert foot!

[stopdiggin]

155. oh, we certainly don't lack for 'information' in today's environment

Applying a bit of common sense and perspective? Yeah, there we tend to fall down - with some regularity. (in part due to the 'information' we are inhaling like a line of high grade powder)

[LonePirate]

67. I will go there. Those cowardly cops failed to protect those kids.

There is a greater chance those kids would be alive if the police had confronted the shooter in a timely manner. Yes, that may not mean they would have survived but there is a chance they might have survived. Those cops removed that chance. Those poor parents. No wonder they are devastated and outraged.

[uponit7771]

114. +1, the policy since Columbine is to confront the shooter! Not wait and bullshit around for 40 mins

[uponit7771]

113. ***DISAGREE*** The current policy is to get to the shooter QUICKLY not stop because they're ...

... "contained", this policy has been known since Collibine IINM

[superpatriotman]

6. K&R

This is un-fucking-believable

[brewens]

7. If one of the cops was my wife, would I want her to go charging in there? Thats one of the reasons

I never had anything negative to say about the cop at Parkland that didn't go in and why cops on the scene aren't usually the answer. A school resource officer would have to be really lucky and good to have a chance to stop a shooting with no one getting hurt. Going right in might be the right move. That might also get the most people killed. They are never going to know for sure.

There is also no way of knowing for sure how a cop will react if they have never been in a situation like that. No matter how much training they have, they might not be able to handle it when the shooting starts. We have to stop it from getting that far with more gun control.

[Novara]

12. If the onlookers had time to think about storming the school themselves ...

... you'd think a COP - whose job this is! - would figure something out. Goddamn useless fucks! The blood of those children are on them too.

IT'S THEIR JOB. IF THEY ARE TOO AFRAID TO DO THEIR JOBS, THEN FIND ANOTHER LINE OF WORK.

"To protect and serve" my ass.

[stopdiggin]

40. BS - "if the onlookers at the scene -"

so that's where we're going to for our tactics and strategy? Onlookers? Crowd sourcing? Lord, save us! That's some real thinking! Again - total BS.

[Dorian Gray]

25. I mean

a cop's job description is "SERVE AND PROTECT." As much as we wouldn't want our loved ones rushing in and putting themselves in danger... if they're a cop, it's kind of their job.

Don't know what to say other than that.

The cops appear to NOT have done their job.

[niyad]

77. When robert dear started shooting at our Planned Parenthood on that Black Friday

an off-duty officer rushed to the scene. He was one of the three people killed that terrible day. He took "to protect and serve" seriously. I have no idea what to say about the officers at Robb.

[Dorian Gray]

110. Oh gosh

I am so sorry. That's terrible. What he did was truly heroic. I am sorry for your loss.

[niyad]

120. He was indeed. He was not known to me, but I honour him. Those heavily-armed

(as one could see from videos) law enforcement types at Robb are beyond belief.

[Irish_Dem]

27. I have quite a few relatives who are cops.

In a large urban setting.

We know that they could be killed at any time. That is the nature of their job.

[Crazyleftie]

41. If the cops did storm in

the shooter would have been distracted from the kids.
Cops are generally brave when the suspect is unarmed.
When they may have to sacrifice their safety for kids they are cowards.

[ret5hd]

8. How do you "contain" a shooter in a room...

when you refuse to enter the building?

Magic spells? Tots and pears?

It sounds a LOT more like “barricaded himself in” than it does “contained”.

Chickenshit Rambo wannabes…if only he had been carrying a cellphone they’d have got ‘im.

[2naSalit]

20. +1

[Bettie]

58. +1

It was probably magic. That's why they had to stay outside, they were doing a complex ritual spell to keep the guy in the room....

[crickets]

129. This. nt

[JanMichael]

9. This statement: "They did contain (Ramos) in the classroom." Mind fuck.

No. Ramos locked himself in the room with what, 30 people? They sat back and waited until better armed cops got there then had to ask for a key to open the door.

They didn't contain him at all.

Liars. Ass covering liars. Charge every cop that sat there for more than 2 minutes with gross dereliction of duty or whatever sticks. Take their guns and jobs and pensions.

[anarch]

122. lying, self-serving sacks of shit who do nothing for the people of Texas

I really hope we vote the whole bunch of criminals out of office when the time comes, but we probably won't because this state is full of fucking dumbasses

[lindysalsagal]

10. Not so macho now, are we? How did all that power help save those kids?

gunz make you feel powerful, but actually render you vulnerable.

All of those cops should do jail time for this.

[Amishman]

32. They probably won't face any discipline or liability for this

The precedent on this is sadly well established

The lawsuit by victim families at Parkland was tossed on the grounds that police have no obligation to protect the public
https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-florida-parkland-shooting-20181221-story.html

This is rooted in the The Town of Castle Rock v. Gonzales and Deshaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services SCOTUS decisions.

[Novara]

36. "no obligation to protect the public"????

What's their fucking job then????

[Amishman]

39. to file reports and issue speeding tickets

in other words bureaucracy and revenue generation

[PTWB]

95. Cops take reports and investigate crimes.

While sometimes they protect the public they’re under no obligation to do so. Ultimately we are responsible for protecting ourselves.

[anarch]

124. to protect private property and break up labor strikes

to maintain the economic and cultural status quo (e.g., white supremacy) by force

[Bettie]

54. That's the truth they have no obligation to protect the public

they are there to generate revenue (speeding tickets and the like) and protect PROPERTY.

Protecting actual people? Nah, that sounds dangerous, why would they do that? I mean, that guy had a gun!

[pwb]

13. Cops always show up late after the crime is over all dressed up for each other

in their battle outfits. Then civilians with no body armor want to rush in. That Figures.

[PCIntern]

15. And did you see the dozens of heavily armed officers

hanging around the scene yesterday, guns at the ready, as though something was imminently going to happen?

[2naSalit]

21. I did see that and wondered why they were guarding the door.

[Kid Berwyn]

14. "Go in there! Go in there!"

“There were more of them. There was just one of him,” he said.

[alphafemale]

19. Don't be silly. Cops are only brave against unarmed citizens

While they are in their own homes and during traffic stops.

[2naSalit]

23. +1

[Irish_Dem]

30. Tactical decision to confine armed gunman in a classroom full of 2nd graders.

No words.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

31. This is almost unbearable:

https://www.kens5.com/article/news/special-reports/uvalde-school-shooting/its-time-to-die-fourth-grade-survivor-uvalde-shooting-recalls-what-gunman-told-student/273-51cc4e26-7a0a-49c0-ba7a-48cdd47fa235

“When the cops came, the cop said: 'Yell if you need help!' And one of the persons in my class said 'help.' The guy overheard and he came in and shot her," the boy said. "The cop barged into that classroom. The guy shot at the cop. And the cops started shooting.”

[stopdiggin]

46. so there was an initial engagement with the shooter?

and then the police all retreated? This doesn't fit together well with other information. I don't know what to say to this ...

[Renew Deal]

33. "They were unprepared" is pretty much the dirty secret of America.

Some groups are better regionally and the fire departments are generally good. Other than that, there is a facade of organization and toughness that falls when tested way too often. It has been reassuring how well the military responded for Ukraine. Other than that, it’s not a major surprise to that some local police department is unprepared.

[lapfog_1]

42. Ukraine has been fighting an urban war for nearly a decade

before the russian invasion.

I would hope that they are well trained by now.

My guess is that they could give lessons to the rest of Europe on modern war fighting.

[jaxexpat]

79. Great point about the mere decade of training the Ukraine military has had.

Obviously, had they trained like US police, who have dealt with school shootings for multiple decades, the Ukraine would be happily speaking Russian now. Over-preparedness is the whole problem. The "thin blue line" folks know all too well the challenges and dangers of going up against individuals legally armed for urban combat. Plus, the court might let the shooter go scott free because he was, after all, just standing his ground. They could be prosecuted for neck sitting on an innocent shooter expressing his second amendment protected rights. Or publicly excoriatedfor allowing 40 minutes to perform what Minneapolis cops get done in under nine.There was even a shameful time, years ago, when LEO's openly supported restrictions on gun ownership. All in all, over-awareness has reduced them to the "wide yellow line". throughout, because, regarding this, is the only attitude appropriate.

[barbtries]

35. well.

defund the police.
train them.
end this madness.

[greenjar_01]

64. Correct

Those who won't be retrained and given structures of accountability can pound sand.

[AZLD4Candidate]

43. Fearing for your life only works if the person is unarmed

They are quick to kill and shoot when the person is unarmed.

Arm the person and apparently they need the brown pants.

[Bengus81]

47. Maybe that "Smokey and the Bandit" Mayor will have an answer today...that sonofabitch

[milestogo]

48. Honestly, there would have to be a swat team on duty at every school

to stop this from happening.

More guns.

[Novara]

50. Which is a capitulation that schools are targets and they don't intend to do a damn thing about it

By saying everyone needs to be armed, it means they are perfectly fine with teenagers with anger issues going into schools and murdering whole classrooms. They don't intend to stop it.

What's more, if they arm citizens, it puts the blame on the armed citizens for not stopping it. They wash their hands of all of it, they are no longer responsible.

[Karma13612]

53. OK, so how does the saying go...

The good guy with a gun is supposed to…

Oh, never mind.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

59. Here is a video showing the parents trying to get law enforcement to go into school

Link to tweet

[dalton99a]

69. +1. Disgraceful

[malaise]

70. Holy Shit

This is frightening

[FailureToCommunicate]

87. Incensed onlookers, cowardly cops. Maybe they needed a few Todd Beamer types...

"Let's roll !!"

Easy for me to say, I know, but people sometimes do extraordinary things when considering the consequences of inaction.

Clearly the cops did not.

[blueknight73]

63. Unbelievable!

Thanks for posting

[DinahMoeHum]

65. Good guys with guns, my Aunt Fanny.

[doc03]

73. If they knew what classroom they were in aren't there windows? I wasn't ever in

classroom without windows and it looks like a single floor building. They had to get the keys for the classroom. I don't know, how about some tear gas through a window, a sniper? Just doesn't quite sound right.

[inthewind21]

140. You're way behind

on your information. No, the cops were not outgunned, as is obvious by the videos posted right on this thread as well as news footage. The shooter had 1 gun. There were at least 5 officers I counted in the videos on this very thread ALL carrying "long guns." No, the murderer was NOT wearing body armor but the police were. That's was clarified yesterday in the police press conference. And no, everyone has not pointed out. But you sure are jumping through hoops trying to. Even though there is video/news evidence that proved you wrong. Talk about charging in unarmed.

[867-5309.]

76. But they risk their lives for us every day!!!

Until they, you know, actually have to risk their lives.

[liberal N proud]

78. It just gets more horrific with each new detail

[randr]

81. I had a gut feeling from the begining that something was not right

Did the classroom have windows?

[inthewind21]

141. yes

it did

[IronLionZion]

84. They prioritize people who are unarmed and black

Because they feared for their lives. we all have our priorities.

[Evolve Dammit]

85. One thing we rarely hear about and the right always claims "mental illness" is how they got that way

What "information" did they tap into regularly, who did they idolize, emulate that created such a pre-meditated, planned, shared live-streamed, chat roomed consort of like-minded murderous terrorists? Curious what you think. A teen does not instantly become a violent, domestic terrorist. It takes years of exposure to some very dark shit, and it's not just video games.

[Bear Creek]

86. Emergency Response

Is a very regimented, especially after 911. TV shows and movies showing maverick moves of character scripted scenes is not real life. The killing was already completed before any thought of what is happening and what to do. The guns used were created to be effective. It was created for military action and should only be in the hands of the military. The situation would need to be handled by SWAT team. While yes while the police are to protecy and to serve. The pay of $23 an hour or about 47,000/ year is not incentive to die. The good guy with a gun that the republicans like to spout about would have to have luck and military training. The only way would have to have a military trained team with M16 out and patrolling. A regular issue weapon is absolutely no match. So arming a teacher would be useless and actually more dangerous. The schools all would need to be made to bullet proof glass and walls. The best solution is to ban the weapons. Other countries have done it after the first incident and have had success. Anger and coulda, woulda and shoulda is always after. All that needs to be directed at change and not finding scapegoats. Beto did the right thing. Other politicians need to find a backbone and draw a line and hold to it. Don’t let the republicans have the narrative.

[atreides1]

123. Really???

" The pay of $23 an hour or about 47,000/ year is not incentive to die."

Then maybe they should find work in another field, perhaps the fast food industry...there are many openings in building maintenance!

There is an expectation of injury or even death for law enforcement...just like there is in the military...perhaps the people would be better served by officers who take the job seriously all the time...and accept the fact that putting on the badge means taking a chance that you won't be coming home at the end of the day!!!

[Bear Creek]

128. You do it then

That is usually the line Republicans say about our military. It is just a job they sign up.

[inthewind21]

142. So

You would agree the military should just turn tail and run if ever confronted because after all, they don't make enough money to be willing to risk their lives. Got it. You're an excuse maker of the highest order. How about this, they don't want to protect kids fine, I don't want to pay them. You '' pick up that tab ok? Since your so understanding of why they are cowards.

[The Jungle 1]

90. They were probably afraid there was a trans kid in there.

They might get touched or worse yet have to defend a trans kid.
The book banning and trans issues seem real stupid now don't they.
Consider this, the state of texass is allowing anyone to carry a gun and the police of texass are refusing to protect.

[ck4829]

91. Trans kid reading a book on CRT - and they could have been exposed to that

[inthewind21]

144. A minority

trans kids, reading a CRT book.

[LeftInTX]

153. Abbott would prosecute them for supporting trans and critical race theory

[The Revolution]

92. Bottom line

Is that there were "good guys with guns" there, and they couldn't stop the "bad guy with a gun".

Time to follow the Republicans example on Roe and start appointing judges who are willing to reverse precedent on 2nd Ammendment rulings. That might take decades, but I don't know what else to do.

[anarch]

117. I'm really getting the impression this whole thing was entirely preventable at multiple points

if there were any kind of competent "authorities" or even a functioning goddamned society at all. fuck it just makes me want to tear my fucking hair out

[greenjar_01]

143. It was certainly preventable at the point of purchase

What kind of a numbnuts idiot sells an AR-15 (oh, fucking whatever, terminology scolds!) to a kid who just turned 18, then another a few days later.

I wouldn't have given that kid a cigarette if he asked me for one on the street, for chrissakes.

[Wednesdays]

145. It's all about the Benjamins, mate.

[Celerity]

121. The majority of US coppers are gutless thug bullies, so this shite is hardly a surprise.

They want all the killin' rights and none of of the riskin' responsibility.

[ellie]

126. The issue, to me, is

The cop just let the guy go into the school. He didn't stop him, didn't shoot him, just let him stroll into a school with weapons. What the ever-loving fuck? No STOP! POLICE! HANDS UP! I'LL SHOOT YOU! Nothing.

That is what is un-fucking-believable to me. I guess the cops only stop and kill people who don't have weapons. Witness Elijah McClain, George Floyd, Eric Garner.

Edit to add: ACAB

[fescuerescue]

131. Police training needs to improve

Today hair dressers get far more training than cops.

This was a kid. Wasn't special forces. Wasn't a robot sent back from the future.

[Novara]

133. And yet the chickenshit cops didn't go in.

Link to tweet

[Hassler]

157. Supposedly their cops eat up 40% of the town budget. Defunding the police

Wouldn't make much of a diff in Evalve

[WarGamer]

159. It took 3+ hours for police to enter the Pulse nightclub after the massacre.