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NoShit... (Original Post) pbmus Jun 2022 OP
I find atheism an easy choice. It's hard to believe accounts of paranormal Mind activity, like Karadeniz Jun 2022 #1
I have watched tons of NDE videos BigmanPigman Jun 2022 #3
I've noticed that in many NDE's the subjects see a shining individual to whom they have a very Karadeniz Jun 2022 #5
Yes, I noticed that too. BigmanPigman Jun 2022 #9
Well.... at the end of my experience, when I very grudgingly accepted the order to leave, as I left Karadeniz Jun 2022 #13
I read something similar BigmanPigman Jun 2022 #15
Whew! Thank goodness it's you! I just had to wade through a thorough tongue lashing and didn't feel Karadeniz Jun 2022 #17
One point TxGuitar Jun 2022 #18
Make that spark a little smaller!!! But... maybe it was a mercy killing. He probably thought we'd Karadeniz Jun 2022 #19
"Scripture" ? Moostache Jun 2022 #11
I'm sure there's a lot of truth in what you say... but I don't get the impression you understand Karadeniz Jun 2022 #16
I consider myself spiritual not religious cilla4progress Jun 2022 #2
Crime is a made up concept by the government. Crime is a fake concept, pushed LogicFirst Jun 2022 #4
+1 lol /nt spudspud Jun 2022 #6
One would think so when looking at how the DOJ functions, but then I don't favor anarchist foxes Backseat Driver Jun 2022 #7
yes and no Warpy Jun 2022 #12
Never was a fan of organized religion. One can practice the basics of all, which are remarkably Evolve Dammit Jun 2022 #8
I'm Hobbesian with respect to the Leviathan and Anarchy... AnrothElf Jun 2022 #10
Or, "I try not to do anything that I have to ask forgiveness for"? Like Trump. It's so easy. czarjak Jun 2022 #14
If by "church" you mean a congregation of like-minded people, a population with a label, housecat Jun 2022 #20
A cheap cure. Tearful confession and forgiveness. What about repentance? Repentance gets short shrif keithbvadu2 Jun 2022 #21

Karadeniz

(22,537 posts)
1. I find atheism an easy choice. It's hard to believe accounts of paranormal Mind activity, like
Thu Jun 2, 2022, 06:10 PM
Jun 2022

NDE's and out of body experiences, or research that's been done with communicating with a deceased one's Mind or research following up and validating children's accounts of previous lives or even highly reputable psychiatrists' results during a client's hypnosis sessions. However, 20-30 million Americans have had such experiences... and the atheists blithely dismiss each and every one as weird brain activity or surgery drugs or a dream. My own experience could not possibly have been the result of any of those alleged factors, but such an experience, if an expansive experience, can provide clues with which one can judge the validity of others' claims.

So, I will affirm that sin should properly be seen as choosing brain thinking over soul thinking. Brain energy produces violence, envy, greed... the usual suspects. Soul energy produces thoughts and behaviors that are good, helpful to oneself and others. But, don't believe me;I don't care.

I doubt the Church made up sin. In antiquity, what we would call religion or theology was called philosophy and there was no shortage of philosophers. Plato is best known and his thinking was respected for centuries. His basic idea was that there is an entity that is all Good and moving away from that until one arrives at planet earth, the Good has been diluted and diluted. So, the idea that earth and earthlings contain anti-Good qualities didn't begin with the Church.

The Church may claim to have the cure for sin, but that's because they have a vested interest in touting a misunderstanding of their own scriptures. Scripture's hidden-in-plain-sight parable message does not say belief in Jesus is the cure for sin. The real message is that you, yourself, are the cure. Scripture doesn't promise a quick fix, but urges you to ask, seek find the truth.

I tried to make sure this wasn't a safe haven post.

BigmanPigman

(51,611 posts)
3. I have watched tons of NDE videos
Thu Jun 2, 2022, 06:45 PM
Jun 2022

and I'd say 90% of them never mention Jesus or Hell or punishment. This applies to NDE from countries around the world...different cultures and religions. I found that very cool since I am an Atheist. That said, I also have had experiences with both of my dogs after they dies as well as my dad. I know what I experienced was very real indeed. After I listened to the near death experiences I was relieved to know that perfectly sane, not overtly religious people were reporting on what they know happened to them.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy”

Karadeniz

(22,537 posts)
5. I've noticed that in many NDE's the subjects see a shining individual to whom they have a very
Thu Jun 2, 2022, 07:11 PM
Jun 2022

strong attraction and whose very presence radiates love and acceptance. One NDEr wanted to literally merge with this being. That told me that the NDE was authentic because that is exactly part of my experience. The NDErs identify the radiating entity as Jesus, but I don't think the being ever identifies itself as such. Nor does it speak, but communicates by thought transference... again, my experience.

When one actually untangles the subtext of the Jesus story written in the scriptures, one finds clues that the Jesus biography didn't all, if any, occur on planet earth. There was a Christian sect, the Docetists, who maintained that Jesus did not exist as a physical body, but "appeared" so. I'm sure this was the best compromise they could come up with to counter the literalists, the Great CHurch, claim that the Jesus biography was literally true.

BigmanPigman

(51,611 posts)
9. Yes, I noticed that too.
Thu Jun 2, 2022, 07:47 PM
Jun 2022

Last edited Thu Jun 2, 2022, 08:20 PM - Edit history (1)

Some mention a spirit or energy that they say is pure love. Everything is love, love, love. It reminded me of the 1960s. There was no hate, fear, sin, punishment, etc. Many of them when given a choice didn't want to go back to Earth and their body at all. It was too great in the light's energy. The only thing that is negative is when they go through their "life review" but even that is quick, not painful and no big deal at all. That sort of pissed me off since I wanted someone like Hitler to suffer but that doesn't seem to be the atmosphere of the experience.

Karadeniz

(22,537 posts)
13. Well.... at the end of my experience, when I very grudgingly accepted the order to leave, as I left
Thu Jun 2, 2022, 08:20 PM
Jun 2022

that world of soul energy, source energy and mind, I noticed a few teeny tiny, anemic, energies way off in the void. I said to myself, "well, I won't need this (the pure energy I'd absorbed from the source) where I'm going (earth)" so for the first time I sort of disobeyed orders. My mind directed my soul to the left, I approached the first pitiful soul I saw and transfused some of my extra energy into it, rubbing and snuggling it. I thought how sad it must be to be stranded in black emptiness, so cold. No source energy could reach there. The only way such a soul could ever develop was by full souls like me then giving it the energy experience. We could give it tastes, journey by journey, so it could eventually understand its reality and purpose. I helped about three souls before my extra energy was gone and I left.

Later on, back in this world, I wondered about those shrunken, deprived souls. I wondered if they could have been attached to people like Hitler. Later I learned there was a spark, even if just a spark, of goodness in Hitler: he loved his dogs, especially Browny. I guess that particle of love survived, but it's in the void, cold, alone, starving until some kind soul helps a bit. But.... I doubt that soul would qualify for reincarnation any time soon! Thousands of years...

BigmanPigman

(51,611 posts)
15. I read something similar
Thu Jun 2, 2022, 08:30 PM
Jun 2022

when I read about reincarnation. When it comes to reincarnation it seems that the very dark souls like Hitler are given special, specific counseling by experienced spirits before they can return.

Karadeniz

(22,537 posts)
17. Whew! Thank goodness it's you! I just had to wade through a thorough tongue lashing and didn't feel
Thu Jun 2, 2022, 08:46 PM
Jun 2022

up to another one! I hope you have more experiences with your pets...
wish I qualified for some of those!! Bye bye!

TxGuitar

(4,198 posts)
18. One point
Thu Jun 2, 2022, 08:52 PM
Jun 2022

Just before Hitler killed himself he gave e a cyanide pill to his dog to make sure they worked.

Karadeniz

(22,537 posts)
19. Make that spark a little smaller!!! But... maybe it was a mercy killing. He probably thought we'd
Thu Jun 2, 2022, 09:08 PM
Jun 2022

treat his dog as hideously as he might have! Nah, he was mean!!

Moostache

(9,895 posts)
11. "Scripture" ?
Thu Jun 2, 2022, 08:10 PM
Jun 2022

On who's authority do you claim one and only one version of spiritual "truth"?

Why the bible and not the Qu'ran?
Why not the tales of ancient Greece or Rome (Jupiter, Zeus, et. al.)?
Why not Ra or Isis or Osiris?
Why not Hinduism or Buhddism?
Why not any of the thousands of other 'gods' and their books and stories?

Have at it hoss...believe whatever you want, but don't be a bit surprised when you get push back from those who would not believe the same.

There is no "sin" because the concept is not meant to be anything other than a control meme from the Church as Christianity dominated western thought and society for 1,000 years and set back the species by at least as much or more.

Name a "sin" and I can easily give you secular reasons for discouraging such behavior as a way to control the public without armed enforcers in every home at every hour. Once you see "sin" for the control mechanism that it is always intended to be, its hard to ever take the concept seriously again. There is no great book of deeds in heaven or anywhere else keeping track of deeds and transgressions, and if there is...then my "hell" would be spending eternity in mindless worship and praise for ANYTHING...let alone to have that misery suffered alongside the peachy assholes that make evangelicals a term that is just shy of lawyer to make people uneasy or discomforted.

Murder?
What is murder at its core? Killing another sentient being? Killing on purpose? Killing is specific ways? Or is it just killing in general? "Thou shall not Kill." may seem pretty clear cut, but in most translations and teachings I was exposed to (forced Catholicism upbringing, of course) the commandment was not "Thou shalt not murder" it was kill. Well, even by the age of 11 I knew that steaks and chicken wings and burgers were dead animal parts. I may not have killed them myself, but I survived on their deceased bodies. By the time I was 15, and exposed to chemistry and biochemical reactions and physics, the concept of killing as a sin was already lauaghably transparent. It may very well be intended to prevent primative societies from offing each other in constant dominance rituals...but even chimpanzee societies display some aversion to killing members of their own social heirachies. Do you REALLY believe that is because of Jesus or Allah or Chthulu?

Murder is a specific act of killing, but without killing - be it animal or plant material that an omnivore like man survives on, requires killing, so the "sin" is a specific way of killing but not the act in and of itself. Same thing with sex...

Adultry? Child abuse? Incest? Sexual orientation?
Please, if there is an almighty and its will is concerned with the sexual behavior of apes then its not a supreme being, its a porn addict with great wifi and endless subscriptions for porn. Seriously, the very concept of the almighty, the creator, the godhead or the one prime mover having ANY FUCKS to give about who touches who and where or where the private parts are placed or stimulated or WHEN is absolute lunacy. Society CARES because sex and infidelity and choices for mating or intimacy are deeply personal betrayals and harmful to a person's mental state. It frays the fabric of society to allow too much in any direction, but it also is a useful tool to use against a small minority to persecute and use as an example. Then you're back to matters of degree and splitting hairs in linguistics and langauge intent. But to ever assume that a single entity responsible for a nearly infinite universe (speed of light limiting the ability of corporeal bodies from ever traversing its length and breadth) and space on a scale our monkey brains can barely conceive let alone understand, it is lauaghable.

It gets worse. Honor thy father and mother? Adoptees must love hearing about this from a society that claims to love life and yet all too often allows its most destitute and vulnerable to suffer unspeakably. Yet, the almighty is more concerned with obeying a drunken daddy's commands to strip or a mentally deficient and dammaged mother commanding obedience than providing love and understanding? Please. Honor is EARNED, so is LOVE. No one is 100% worthy of eiher concpet in a vaccum.

Does society create morals? 100%.
Are morals necessary for a peaceful instead of warlike existence? Again, 100%.

If you try to set up a society without laws, morals, codes or honor - an 'everyman for himself' libertarian utopia...you get wildly disparate results, but never peaceful societies. Throw in unfettered access to guns and a 24/7/365 industry of promoting desires and lack of delayed gratification and you get America 2022. Its easy to see why people see "gawd" and "plans" and "sin" and "redemption" to keep from going under permanently. But comforting mental constructs and fake cures for fake problems do not make them real or even plausible. They make them coping mechanisms for people to make sense of our incomprehensibly lucky existence.

If not for Jupiter and Saturn, Earth would be a atmosphere-less rock instead of the magnificent moist pebble we are all hitching a ride on for a short period. We all have but a single life to live, one ticket to the great revolving moist pebble in the solar system. The mere fact that any of us exist is a miracle in and of itself...but to ascribe divine intent and thereby "sin" as a concept in opposition to said intent is adolescent at best and infantile at worst. Knowing the truth - that we are all organic molecules assembled for the briefest of intervals in a vast sea of emptiness and that we will forever be parted from the furthest reaches of observable reality - can be overwhelmingly negative for some, crushingly so to others and beautiful and precious to still others.

Sin has nothing to do with reality. Souls and spirituality are like trying to describe why a painting is a marvel to some and dried pigments on animal skin or plant material to others. The idea that reality can be compressed into such a pathetic and tiny box as any human created religion or scripture ultimately is insulting, it is sheer vanity, self-importance and an afront to the possibilities of mind and the cosmic coincidence, almost as much so as the odds that someone may have actually read all of this rambling text wall...

Karadeniz

(22,537 posts)
16. I'm sure there's a lot of truth in what you say... but I don't get the impression you understand
Thu Jun 2, 2022, 08:42 PM
Jun 2022

that the gospels' writers were the gnostics. The "biography" displays homage to the Magi's, the Egyptians, Mithras, the Eleusinian mystery,
Plato, to name a few, The writers distilled what they considered spiritual truths and modern controlled experimentation supports many of them. Some I doubt can be researched, but we do tend to trust the reality of our own personal experiences. I have tackled the Koran and by halfway through, I was repelled by the violence and had been unable to find overt or hidden messages pointing to the spiritual truths I've experienced. I don't find any difference to speak of between Buddhism and the parables' truths.

I wish you'd flown off the handle citing Hammurabi's code, because it's a favorite... the death penalty for killing a female dog. I can live with that! But nowadays, more people are familiar with Christianity than other sources, so I refer to that. It's a tool and, when understood, contains beliefs supported by my own experience.

Have a good one! And... you may have not noticed that the original tweet referred to the Church, sort of calling for a response in terms of the Christian church rather than all other religions.

Can we try this response on for size? "We'll have to agree to disagree!"

cilla4progress

(24,736 posts)
2. I consider myself spiritual not religious
Thu Jun 2, 2022, 06:23 PM
Jun 2022

Some combo of humanist/pagan (earth-centered)/atheist.

I am member of a UU fellowship, for purposes of fellowship, good works, comaraderie.

I'm fortunate to have been raised by humanists, so didn't require reprogramming.

LogicFirst

(571 posts)
4. Crime is a made up concept by the government. Crime is a fake concept, pushed
Thu Jun 2, 2022, 07:09 PM
Jun 2022

by the government to make money and create jobs. The perfect oppression.

Backseat Driver

(4,393 posts)
7. One would think so when looking at how the DOJ functions, but then I don't favor anarchist foxes
Thu Jun 2, 2022, 07:38 PM
Jun 2022

guarding someone else's chicken house either. When they make up their own rules on a dark and stormy night they get a little greedy, and the Circle of Life, i.e., foxes got to eat too, is disrupted when they grab and kill more than they eat.

Warpy

(111,277 posts)
12. yes and no
Thu Jun 2, 2022, 08:17 PM
Jun 2022

Crimes like shooting people or defrauding them in Ponzi schemes do real harm to people. Perpetrators need to be taken out of society to discourage the behavior from turning into a habit.

Where your post comes into play is the victimless crime, like smoking a joint. And guess which type of crime is punished the most harshly. Right.

Victimless crimes have their roots deeply into religion, which is allowed to preach against them to anyone who wants to listen.

However, government needs to get out of the business of protecting adults from sin. It's not government's business.

Evolve Dammit

(16,743 posts)
8. Never was a fan of organized religion. One can practice the basics of all, which are remarkably
Thu Jun 2, 2022, 07:45 PM
Jun 2022

similar, without supporting any of the cults. That's all Jesus or Allah, or Buddha would want. Just live your life without being an asshole and take care of others who are unable to take care of themselves. Pretty simple really?? Don't lie, cheat, steal, kill or fuck your neighbors spouse. Can't handle that then you're probably a Republican or an over-sexed asshole or sociopath.

AnrothElf

(571 posts)
10. I'm Hobbesian with respect to the Leviathan and Anarchy...
Thu Jun 2, 2022, 08:05 PM
Jun 2022

Anarchy is existential, and order is preferable to chaos.

Crime and Punishment or The Trial. Borges' Labyrinth. Gabriel Garcia Marquez. John Steinbeck's "thou Mayest" VS "thou shalt".

Man's law is contingent. Punitive. Voluntary.

I CAN break the speed limit on the highway. I cannot break the speed of light. The laws of physics and the laws of humanity have one thing in common, only:

The word "law"

housecat

(3,121 posts)
20. If by "church" you mean a congregation of like-minded people, a population with a label,
Thu Jun 2, 2022, 09:25 PM
Jun 2022

masses with neither cures nor power, that is one thing. But only the heads of the churches have the power to to lead and control the masses all in the name of a religion and a god. Organized religion has nothing to do with God. It is simply one of many social institutions with a name, with rules, and with punishments. People, practitioners, have the problems, and they are taught to look to religious leaders for solutions. Maybe the church leaders make up problems for people in order to provide cures . . .with snake oil. Snake oil is an easy sell. Consumers of snake oil have been willing to murder entire populations in the name of "religion." God isn't interested.

keithbvadu2

(36,829 posts)
21. A cheap cure. Tearful confession and forgiveness. What about repentance? Repentance gets short shrif
Thu Jun 2, 2022, 10:11 PM
Jun 2022

A cheap cure. Tearful confession and forgiveness. What about repentance? Repentance gets short shrift.

So many times we see a politician or pastor caught in some vile crime / sin and they stand before the crowd, tearfully admitting their sin, often with their wife beside them.

One. I have sinned. Usually non-specific or watered down.
Two. God has forgiven me.
Three. Let's move on.

No matter how badly you treat your fellow man, a cheap confession on your deathbed gets you a trip to heaven.

Repentance/sincerity is an afterthought.

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