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nolabear

(41,990 posts)
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 12:51 PM Jun 2022

Do you want the country to be united?

There’s a lot being written about who’s a uniter and who’s a divider. Though I believe Democratic policies are designed to improve life for everyone, I’m curious as to how, or whether, we on the left care about “hearts and minds.” I hear far more venom (understandably—we’ve been harmed and are wary) than desire to continue to have difficult conversations, again and again, for however long it takes.

So I’m curious about the desire to unite, or the desire to impose what we want (me too, so don’t assume I’m making a statement. I’m asking a complicated question), or the desire to work step by step, beginning with compromise as the middle left politicians advocate.

Can we talk about it without epithets and expressions of disgust, just this one thread? Where do you stand?

74 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Do you want the country to be united? (Original Post) nolabear Jun 2022 OP
United with who? 58Sunliner Jun 2022 #1
You can weigh in on that. Who'd you unite with? nolabear Jun 2022 #10
I'm against uniting with traitors. /eom Xoan Jun 2022 #2
That's an epithet. What about the right who aren't? nolabear Jun 2022 #6
I am not for uniting with those CrackityJones75 Jun 2022 #53
Seems reasonable to me. nolabear Jun 2022 #57
I find myself wishing Lincoln Mr.Bill Jun 2022 #70
If today's repubs weren't a propaganda poisoned cult, sure. NewHendoLib Jun 2022 #3
So it depends on how far into the cult-right they are. nolabear Jun 2022 #7
At this point, I am in a no repub at all frame of mind. NewHendoLib Jun 2022 #27
I'm not convinced unity is possible. WhiskeyGrinder Jun 2022 #4
What is, then? What do we do? nolabear Jun 2022 #8
What I do depends on what my goal is. WhiskeyGrinder Jun 2022 #30
That is likely the best option. nolabear Jun 2022 #58
I want to be clear -- my cash donations are not to candidates or the Democratic Party. WhiskeyGrinder Jun 2022 #62
I would prefer that it was not united if under the rule of Republicans. Chainfire Jun 2022 #5
Would the goal be to divide literally then? nolabear Jun 2022 #9
Not necessary; just redraw the lines on the map. ;) Chainfire Jun 2022 #21
No chainsaws? 😄 nolabear Jun 2022 #59
And who would get the military and the nukes? Pyryck Jun 2022 #16
Not if it means sacrificing trans kids and other human rights. No way. Duncan Grant Jun 2022 #11
I agree completely. The question is what do we do? nolabear Jun 2022 #15
Is it an imposition to enact laws opposed by racists, zealots and fools? Duncan Grant Jun 2022 #46
I do think Abrams and Blow try hard to broaden their supporters though. nolabear Jun 2022 #54
Thank you and I sincerely wish you good luck. Duncan Grant Jun 2022 #65
I understand that. Hopefully we on the left can have unity. nolabear Jun 2022 #67
No.No interest in uniting with those type of people. They have shown time and time again they will Autumn Jun 2022 #12
What do we do? nolabear Jun 2022 #17
Maybe we need to find a way to have national elections on the major issues Autumn Jun 2022 #43
That's so...reasonable. nolabear Jun 2022 #45
of course, I want the Country to be United markie Jun 2022 #13
I agree with all you've said. nolabear Jun 2022 #18
we never give up markie Jun 2022 #23
BOY do I agree with that! nolabear Jun 2022 #26
I don't care any longer. BannonsLiver Jun 2022 #14
Complicated. Which America? nolabear Jun 2022 #19
The functioning republic part BannonsLiver Jun 2022 #20
I know it doesn't. It's disheartening. nolabear Jun 2022 #28
Incidentally I think this is a good thread idea BannonsLiver Jun 2022 #22
In my "real " life, I am forthemiddle Jun 2022 #24
You're much like I am. nolabear Jun 2022 #31
"No politics today" forthemiddle Jun 2022 #39
Depends on what united means. Voltaire2 Jun 2022 #25
Maybe I wasn't specific enough. nolabear Jun 2022 #33
This is indeed a good discussion. One more point...with the current NewHendoLib Jun 2022 #29
I honestly never thought I'd be as anti-Capitalism as I am. nolabear Jun 2022 #35
All the self aggrandizing weaknesses would exist under any other sysetm. Hortensis Jun 2022 #56
Not if it means tolerating fascism. roamer65 Jun 2022 #32
Yes, if that's the only choice I agree. Would you take refugees? nolabear Jun 2022 #38
Yes. roamer65 Jun 2022 #40
Me too. nolabear Jun 2022 #44
They are still sane. roamer65 Jun 2022 #50
No one who voted for Trump is sane. Mr.Bill Jun 2022 #71
We are talking anti-Dump conservatives. roamer65 Jun 2022 #72
I don't think it's possible anymore. CrispyQ Jun 2022 #34
WW2 proved we can't compromise with fascists. roamer65 Jun 2022 #37
That's the trouble with cultism. nolabear Jun 2022 #41
We're seeing it on a global scale, too, as a collective. CrispyQ Jun 2022 #47
I don't see it happening. You would think that on the left coast MenloParque Jun 2022 #36
I'm just outside Seattle and lived there for years. nolabear Jun 2022 #42
Put Pisswig on trial for treason. Kid Berwyn Jun 2022 #48
It might. I fear martyrdom, but I don't see an heir. nolabear Jun 2022 #60
Yep, the country can unite around shared principles and it needs to gulliver Jun 2022 #49
I like that. I think of it as the toddler principle. nolabear Jun 2022 #61
I don't think it has to be treestar Jun 2022 #51
I would like the other side to see the light krawhitham Jun 2022 #52
That would be the hope. To be the light they need to see. nolabear Jun 2022 #55
The desire for unity in itself isn't the problem kcr Jun 2022 #63
Unity? You can't have unity without compromise and that doesn't mean we give up 75% of what we want Vinca Jun 2022 #64
That's a broadbrush question. So I can only answer in a broadbrush way -- not on their terms as I KPN Jun 2022 #66
I made it broad brush on purpose so we'd get various replies to discuss. nolabear Jun 2022 #68
Partisanship and the inability to discuss are killing us Sympthsical Jun 2022 #69
Such a good, thoughtful reply. nolabear Jun 2022 #73
No. GoodRaisin Jun 2022 #74
 

CrackityJones75

(2,403 posts)
53. I am not for uniting with those
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 03:03 PM
Jun 2022

I am not for uniting with those who want to take away peoples rights to bodily autonomy, who want to push more of our money to the richest, and to those that will do nothing to stop the outrageous gun problems.

NewHendoLib

(60,018 posts)
3. If today's repubs weren't a propaganda poisoned cult, sure.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 12:58 PM
Jun 2022

But as things stand, they are simply toxic. Uniting with a group whose sole purposes are worshiping the orange idol, or "owning the libs" is a fool's errand.

nolabear

(41,990 posts)
7. So it depends on how far into the cult-right they are.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 01:06 PM
Jun 2022

There’s a point where you turn away and just unite with those you think you can maybe win over? Makes sense.

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,393 posts)
30. What I do depends on what my goal is.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 02:00 PM
Jun 2022

If I decide unity isn't possible -- and I have decided that -- then I determine what I want to change that's within my ability, with my abilities being direct cash donations, mutual aid and direct action. I divest myself of hope of anything other than benign neglect from political and civic leaders, and think about the kind of change I can bring in my own community. I've found that "really, what do we do?" leads me, personally, to inaction at best and despair at worst, so I've brought my focus in to a much more narrow view.

nolabear

(41,990 posts)
58. That is likely the best option.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 03:11 PM
Jun 2022

My kids impress me every day with their dedication to schools and community service. I teach and support liberal causes and candidates, and I do a lot of listening.

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,393 posts)
62. I want to be clear -- my cash donations are not to candidates or the Democratic Party.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 03:18 PM
Jun 2022

The work I do has over the years increasingly moved out of politics -- I vote, but that's about it -- and into things I see that have immediate effects on people's lives.

Chainfire

(17,605 posts)
5. I would prefer that it was not united if under the rule of Republicans.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 01:03 PM
Jun 2022

Split it at the Mississippi and relocate the population with libs to the East and Fascist to the West. In a few years the Western paradise would collapse and then we could consider reunification under a new set of rules.

(by the way, this is not a serious proposal)

Pyryck

(99 posts)
16. And who would get the military and the nukes?
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 01:20 PM
Jun 2022

We have no choice but to engage, encourage and help them step back from the precipice otherwise democracy is done, over and we then argue about who gets what leftovers.

Duncan Grant

(8,282 posts)
11. Not if it means sacrificing trans kids and other human rights. No way.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 01:09 PM
Jun 2022

I’m interested in what you mean when you say “hearts and minds”.

nolabear

(41,990 posts)
15. I agree completely. The question is what do we do?
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 01:20 PM
Jun 2022

I’m all in favor of every law protecting all who seek identity equality, human rights, body autonomy, and more than I can realistically type.

Do we work to try to win allies—hearts and minds? Do we just impose law without doing that too?

As I said, I’m not advocating one side or the other in this particular thread, though I’m a bleeding heart liberal myself.

Duncan Grant

(8,282 posts)
46. Is it an imposition to enact laws opposed by racists, zealots and fools?
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 02:25 PM
Jun 2022

A thought experiment:

It’s not Stacey Abram’s job to win over intractable ignorance regarding the black experience in The United States. It’s not Charles Blow’s job to win over intractable arrogance over the murder of George Floyd (and the very, very long list of others).

And so on, and so on…

The people who are being targeted for unity need to do their part. And I don’t think their belief systems and culture will allow them to transcend their toxic ineptitudes.

If I misunderstand you, please know I’m trying to comprehend who we’re unifying with.

nolabear

(41,990 posts)
54. I do think Abrams and Blow try hard to broaden their supporters though.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 03:05 PM
Jun 2022

Certainly laws that oppose all the things we oppose like racism and unfettered guns and discrimination and abortion abolition must be passed. But by division I mean just imposing and not working to knock down those prejudices.

I think the kids of extremists can sometimes be reasoned with if we don’t become extremists in our despising their parents.

Duncan Grant

(8,282 posts)
65. Thank you and I sincerely wish you good luck.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 03:32 PM
Jun 2022

Personally, after many decades — I’ve abandoned that strategy. I’ll be the guy who holds the line, not surrendering an inch. I’m best suited for that at this point in my life.

I won’t accommodate conservatism and its implications for LGBTQI+ people. I don’t consider myself an extremist— just principled. I’ll consider unity when conservatives do as much work on the general welfare of the country as I have.

nolabear

(41,990 posts)
67. I understand that. Hopefully we on the left can have unity.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 03:52 PM
Jun 2022

And I don’t say that w/o acknowledging that I want that unity so we have power.

Autumn

(45,120 posts)
12. No.No interest in uniting with those type of people. They have shown time and time again they will
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 01:13 PM
Jun 2022

not work with us. Believe them. There can be no unity. None.

Autumn

(45,120 posts)
43. Maybe we need to find a way to have national elections on the major issues
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 02:20 PM
Jun 2022

and let the American people vote on them or not. I don't know who something like that could be brought about but every couple of years politicians spend billions to get elected and nothing gets done for the people. Campaigns should be funded by the government, no donations, a certain amount and that's it, you are elected or not. Get rid of lifetime appointments on all courts including the SC. Judges should apply for jobs just as anyone else does and they can be fired just like anyone else. They all get Retirement at 62 and that is with SS, same as the rest of us. Politicians should have term limits, retirement at 62. They do not get to buy any stocks while in office. No more coming out of office as multi millionaires.

nolabear

(41,990 posts)
45. That's so...reasonable.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 02:23 PM
Jun 2022

People love technology and yet don’t seem to recognize we can accurately vote (not to mention the profit in fomenting distrust of it) on just about everything.

markie

(22,757 posts)
13. of course, I want the Country to be United
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 01:18 PM
Jun 2022

in the sense we have general common goals...

however, we cannot be united when large numbers of people:

-refuse to believe climate change and work to alleviate it
-don't want women to control their own bodies
-think it is ok for people to own and carry assault weapons
-refuse to talk about our history and teach children the truth
-have their own reality apart from the truth
-want to erase those that are "different" specifically LGBTQ folks
-want to impose a religion on others
-continue to hate on immigrants

there are some things that we should just not allow in a 21st Century democratic world... a diverse population is healthy and there is much room for differences of opinion about so many things...

some should never be tolerated

nolabear

(41,990 posts)
18. I agree with all you've said.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 01:23 PM
Jun 2022

Sounds like you believe there’s no hope for change in a large segment. Which is fair. How do we treat them then, once we impose our desires? Again, I agree with having to do that, but do we keep working on them or give up?

markie

(22,757 posts)
23. we never give up
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 01:34 PM
Jun 2022

I am not saying there is no hope, just that we cannot pretend that what they believe and/or want to impose on the rest of us is ok.

I would rather educate than 'impose' but it is true that many will never see things as you and I do (as well as the majority of people)...

seriously, our biggest problem is that power has been manipulated and we really are looking at minority rule and that can't hold.

Somehow, we must change the Electoral College and Gerrymandering, we must challenge all the new voting rules and make it easier (and dare I say sexy) to vote, we must do a better job educating our kids, so many things we could and should do...

nolabear

(41,990 posts)
26. BOY do I agree with that!
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 01:55 PM
Jun 2022

One place I think is utterly black and white, in more ways than one, is One Citizen One Vote. We can easily count the popular vote. There’s no reason to do it any other way. And suppression in any form should simply not be allowed. That’s a fight we have to have if we’re going to actually be a representative democracy.

nolabear

(41,990 posts)
19. Complicated. Which America?
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 01:24 PM
Jun 2022

I’ve learned a lot these last few years about my blindness to how bad it’s always been for many. I mean, I thought I knew but I didn’t have to stare it in the face.

I get your point I think, though.

BannonsLiver

(16,439 posts)
20. The functioning republic part
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 01:30 PM
Jun 2022

And of course at least nearly half of our people are rotten and evil, so there’s that. I suppose it’s all interrelated though. You can’t very well have a standup country when nearly half its population are proudly ignorant bottom of the barrel types.

I wish I could be more optimistic. It’s not something that makes me happy.

forthemiddle

(1,382 posts)
24. In my "real " life, I am
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 01:42 PM
Jun 2022

1/2 of my friends in real life are Conservative, the other 1/2 Liberal. It’s been that way my whole life. I love each and every one of them, and I won’t ask them to change (just as they know they won’t change me). But that’s real life.
On the internet, I feel we can be anonymous and be internet warriors. The media feeds into this.
So even though I may be passionate about my beliefs, I am also passionate about my private life, and I love them all.
I honestly think the internet, and social media, has made compromise a really dirty word, and even though I am apart of it, I really don’t like it. Call me old fashioned, but I kind of want politeness and respect to come back into fashion.

nolabear

(41,990 posts)
31. You're much like I am.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 02:01 PM
Jun 2022

I was raised in a South that’s very conservative in many ways and very much live-and-let-live in others. Gulf Coast, New Orleans, “Western Caribbean.” So I have family that’s very conservative and there’s a lot we avoid. We can’t always because some of my kids’ cousins, all adults, are rabid right wingers and I just can’t talk to them. My minority grandchildren would not be in danger from them, but they absolutely would be from people they agree with.

So I walk that tightrope. And social media twists it all into extremes, that sometimes has horrific consequences. I think that’s one reason I long for an actual conversation. And so far I’m getting a pretty good one!

forthemiddle

(1,382 posts)
39. "No politics today"
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 02:10 PM
Jun 2022

That phrase generally seems to work with my family and friends, and when it doesn’t you can read the room.
If I’m overwhelmed with Conservative members, I tend to walk away, and let them rant away, because after all I know there is no minds to change (same goes for the sole Conservative that might walk into the Liberal group), if we are evenly split, we tend to be more respective of the conversation. But that happens everywhere, the majority group tends to be the bullying group, and it’s best to walk away.
We have so many non political things in common, it’s usually very easy to stay away from partisan politics.

Voltaire2

(13,119 posts)
25. Depends on what united means.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 01:43 PM
Jun 2022

If we ‘unite’ around not holding the insurrection leaders accountable, then no I am against that sort of unity.

If we unite around denying reproductive rights for women, count me out.

If we unite around prohibiting discussions about diversity equity and inclusion in our schools, we’ll no I can’t unite around that either.

I could go on. I see nothing much we can unite on.

nolabear

(41,990 posts)
33. Maybe I wasn't specific enough.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 02:05 PM
Jun 2022

I agree with all you said. But do we count those who disagree out, are there some we can cohabit with, can we keep talking and hoping we can improve more and more, and create more humane ideals, or is it impossible and we have to divide and just hang into power and forget them?

Maybe still not clear but the thread has some good thoughts.

NewHendoLib

(60,018 posts)
29. This is indeed a good discussion. One more point...with the current
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 01:58 PM
Jun 2022

Media landscape - pretty much dominated by the right, with a whole lot of "both sides do it", there can be no unity.

Add toxic social networking in as well.

We are in quite a pickle.

nolabear

(41,990 posts)
35. I honestly never thought I'd be as anti-Capitalism as I am.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 02:07 PM
Jun 2022

But the media and political sell-outs have shaken me to the core. Particularly media. I once aspired to be a journalist and had high ideals about that. No more. 🙁

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
56. All the self aggrandizing weaknesses would exist under any other sysetm.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 03:06 PM
Jun 2022

Eliminating capitalism does not eliminate personal greed for either material good or power (greed for power is a huge motivator, for many far more than wealth). ALL systems can be corrupted to funnel both to those who pursue them.

Notably, ALL systems would include the same people as now. All LW socialist economies have become corrupted, usually quickly morphing to RW methods to control populations and hold power, and to RW leaders.

Shouldn't the objection be to lack of morals and the integrity to adhere to them? To demonstration of hypocrisy and weak to poor character? To inadequate/lack of regulation to compel good faith performance?

To have good government under any system, we have to elect good people.

roamer65

(36,747 posts)
32. Not if it means tolerating fascism.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 02:04 PM
Jun 2022

That is when I would favor secession and I know the founding fathers would agree as well.

If states like TX and AL, for example, want to go down the road of fascism they can go there alone.

nolabear

(41,990 posts)
38. Yes, if that's the only choice I agree. Would you take refugees?
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 02:08 PM
Jun 2022

Let’s say we divided and there were non-fascist, old school conservatives who wanted out. Would you take them?

This is a good discussion.

roamer65

(36,747 posts)
72. We are talking anti-Dump conservatives.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 04:07 PM
Jun 2022

Any person who hates Dump is a potential ally.

It’s fascist versus democracy now.

CrispyQ

(36,500 posts)
34. I don't think it's possible anymore.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 02:05 PM
Jun 2022

How do you unite w/people who want to take away your right to vote because they disagree with you? Take away your rights because they don't like the way you look, or because they believe they are morally/socially superior to you. You either believe we're all equal & deserve the same voice in government & the same opportunities in society, or you don't. How do you compromise with that?

I have one repub family member I was fond of when I was young & we struck up an online exchange & when I challenged him on taking away voting rights & the racism that the party embraces, he said, "That's not the part of the party I vote for." So I asked him, "What policies do you vote for? Tax cuts for the rich & deregulation for the corporations? Cuz that's all your party has. They have no healthcare plan, no climate change plan, & their only immigration plan is to build a wall & your proud boys & oath freakers showed the world that walls don't work last January." Crickets. He'd vote for Trump again, bet on it.

nolabear

(41,990 posts)
41. That's the trouble with cultism.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 02:11 PM
Jun 2022

In psychology, “thought stopping” is a clinical term. You see it in people who have to cling to an idea so much that when there’s a real, factual, logical challenge, their brain simply won’t go there and they shut down or go to learned lines. It’s hard to see in people you care for. And what to do can be painful.

CrispyQ

(36,500 posts)
47. We're seeing it on a global scale, too, as a collective.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 02:27 PM
Jun 2022

Huge numbers of people in denial about how grim our environmental situation is. It's not looking good for humanity.

MenloParque

(512 posts)
36. I don't see it happening. You would think that on the left coast
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 02:07 PM
Jun 2022

That diversity and inclusivity is celebrated. Sadly, it’s not. I live in the most progressive city in the nation but as I step outside my doorstep each morning I have to walk past multiple vehicles with militia and gun stickers, let’s go brandon flags, all of it. Just the looks that these people give me as I walk down the street to the park with my dogs is enough to make my feel on edge. The other side hates us and we are definitely enemies. As a black woman I don’t know where I can feel completely safe if I can’t feel safe in west coast cities with majority dem leadership.

nolabear

(41,990 posts)
42. I'm just outside Seattle and lived there for years.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 02:20 PM
Jun 2022

We talk about racism as if it’s somewhere else, but that’s a comfortable illusion among many of us white people. The obvious Trumpism isn’t so open in the city but you get into the little towns, it gets rough.

I’m an old-ish white woman, which is some of the best protective coloration there is, but I have a black grand baby and a Latino one, and I fear for them. I try every day to figure out how to keep them both safe and comfortable with who they are. Let one of those monsters harm them, though, and the Wrath of Grammy will come down. So I have my limits for sure.

nolabear

(41,990 posts)
60. It might. I fear martyrdom, but I don't see an heir.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 03:14 PM
Jun 2022

I’m all for it. It needs to happen. The others are trying to gain his cultists and I do y think they get the level of worship and delusion.

gulliver

(13,186 posts)
49. Yep, the country can unite around shared principles and it needs to
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 02:30 PM
Jun 2022

The vast majority of people–Dems, Republicans, and Independents–have common sense. The Dem and Republican platforms, for example, aren't so completely irreconcilable that we need to be at each other's throats. Dems don't want "big government," for example, any more than Republicans do. Dems want the government to be the right size for its commonsense missions. (Full disclosure: I happen to think government might be about 50% too small and that Republicans are standing in the way of consumer demand for common needs. Republicans pushing arbitrary limits on government size are frustrating, but I don't hate them for it.)

Most of the right are also for commonsense gun control. And the right is gradually shifting on climate change as they start to deal with the pain it is causing. Eventually, they'll even try to say acting against climate change was their idea in the first place. (And they'll believe themselves.)

To unite, we need to heavily and vocally prioritize the real needs of the vast majority of Americans and deprioritize any conflicting needs of the tiny few outliers. To respect majority rule means, well, respecting majority rule.

We need to magnify the voices of those who support the principles of the Dem platform and our elected officeholders (who represent voters) and speak against any self-elected activists and protesters who falsely and undemocratically try to claim they speak for us. They're welcome to speak, of course, just not for us. And the party should actively emphasize that every time someone tries to leave the wrong impression. Just say, "Those protesters are welcome to speak, but they are speaking for themselves. The party did not organize the protest under our governing democratic rules, so the protest is not a Dem-endorsed protest."

If we do that, I think we would have a Dem majority, and our principles would win. The Republicans would be forced to sane up, though, so we would have competition in the common sense arena.

nolabear

(41,990 posts)
61. I like that. I think of it as the toddler principle.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 03:16 PM
Jun 2022

I understand you want to do that, and you can want it, but I can’t let you hurt yourself or anyone else.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
51. I don't think it has to be
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 02:58 PM
Jun 2022

"we are divided" is starting to get tiresome to hear. It can be a lot worse. The pundits know nothing about history or about any other countries.

It would be nice if Republicans would compromise again. How did they get this way?

kcr

(15,318 posts)
63. The desire for unity in itself isn't the problem
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 03:24 PM
Jun 2022

As long as the GOP refuses to act in good faith, unity is an unattainable goal.

Vinca

(50,302 posts)
64. Unity? You can't have unity without compromise and that doesn't mean we give up 75% of what we want
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 03:27 PM
Jun 2022

so they can have more of what they want. At this point we'll be lucky if Trump isn't reinstalled in 2024 and has us all executed.

KPN

(15,649 posts)
66. That's a broadbrush question. So I can only answer in a broadbrush way -- not on their terms as I
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 03:41 PM
Jun 2022

currently understand them -- no common-sense and effective gun controls; no tax increases on the wealthy and corporations; no right to choose when it comes to pregnancy; no unhindered right to vote; no serious efforts to move away from fossil fuels; no meaningful regulation of capitalism to better level the playing field; privatization of virtually everything, including governance; the list goez on and on.

nolabear

(41,990 posts)
68. I made it broad brush on purpose so we'd get various replies to discuss.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 03:55 PM
Jun 2022

It’s really been a good one, the kind I wish we could have “across the aisle” as the Congress critters say. That longing can be problematic I know, but I am holding onto what I hope is pragmatic idealism.

Sympthsical

(9,093 posts)
69. Partisanship and the inability to discuss are killing us
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 04:00 PM
Jun 2022

It's a very complicated topic as you note, but one thing I'll note is that I almost never have a problem getting along with people who have different politics than me. I think it's because I'm just not very partisan. I'm a liberal/progressive Democrat and always vote that way while largely supporting policies that would follow under that umbrella.

However.

I'm not on a team. It's not about my side winning or losing any particular argument on any particular day. I think our side has better policies, but sometimes we're just wrong on something. One thing in the past week that I like is that the Left course corrected in the S.F. election. We want criminal justice reform, but we saw what Boudin was doing and had the gumption to say, "Ok, no. Whatever that is is bad, and there is no reason for us to defend this."

Of course, out of partisanship, some people are still defending it into the ground.

But it was a rare instance of saying, "Nope. This isn't working. It sounded good, but in practice this is insanity."

However, because the team always has to win, the admission that we've gotten something wrong can be incredibly difficult to manage. People won't even have the discussion. And we set up little words and phrases that are like landmines. If you step on one, forget it. Discussion over. You are now the bad guy. The end. I win the argument because you said the word!

It often devolves into the world's most tedious game of Taboo, and the verboten words or ideas are shifting on the daily.

Once you decide you are all that is Good and Righteous in the world and the other side is all that is Evil and Mendacious, you're done. There is no discussion possible much less cooperation. Everyone retreats to their bunkers and throws monkey shit at one another.

But the world doesn't work this way if it is to work. I think about my neighborhood. I have Trump people around. I've talked with them. I know their politics. I don't ring their doorbell and scream at them then run home to brag to my partner about what I've done. If there's a problem in the neighborhood, you have to come together and start talking about, "Well, what do we do about this."

I do not egg their houses and then post my wins about it online.

But that's the equivalent of how many of us behave. It's not productive or constructive. It's not even adult. It's corrosive, toxic, and as we do all this winning, the neighborhood falls apart around us.

And I'll say the other side has these same team-minded people. Everything I said above goes for them, too. So I'm not picking us out as special in this regard. But social media have aggravated this. It's all about getting those clicks, those likes, those retweets and social approval. "I have struck a mighty blow against the Enemy!"

It's shitty behavior. I don't know what will change it.

But as long as we think having a discussion or even entertaining verboten ideas is wrong, there can be no progress. I know there are some topics I will not touch. I will not discuss them, because we are not allowed to discuss them as rational, reasonable adults who are thinking their way through situations in search of solution. We are put into corners by internet mobs and would be authoritarians who have decided Wrong Speech and Wrong Think must be forever prosecuted.

Well, ok. But things don't get better that way. The road to progress is not an arrow always pointing up. When backlash and course correction comes, they get ugly. When you have no place for people to let out pressure and allow for equilibrium, things have a habit of exploding.

nolabear

(41,990 posts)
73. Such a good, thoughtful reply.
Sat Jun 11, 2022, 05:05 PM
Jun 2022

I agree with you totally. It gets to be very “Eye for an eye” very fast when you only want to fight “them” and score points with “us.” I’ve replied to lots of replies here with all the caveats—no we can’t let them enact terrible laws, yes, we need to do everything we can to protect and enable the success of all with the exception of anything that restricts the life of or harms another. But I’ll talk to anyone with curiosity until I can’t (I’m not without limits to what I’ll take) and then I’ll walk.

Because of where I live and what I do (faculty and board president of a psychology training institute) I have a harder time with those who get mad because we can’t magically make change rather than going through the legal and practical channels we have to. I empathize. I invite them to help. They find out how hard the work is, and how slow. But the rewards are great. Eventually. I hope for the same when trying to change political minds. If you slam the door then they can’t hear you either.

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