General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDo you want the country to be united?
Theres a lot being written about whos a uniter and whos a divider. Though I believe Democratic policies are designed to improve life for everyone, Im curious as to how, or whether, we on the left care about hearts and minds. I hear far more venom (understandablyweve been harmed and are wary) than desire to continue to have difficult conversations, again and again, for however long it takes.
So Im curious about the desire to unite, or the desire to impose what we want (me too, so dont assume Im making a statement. Im asking a complicated question), or the desire to work step by step, beginning with compromise as the middle left politicians advocate.
Can we talk about it without epithets and expressions of disgust, just this one thread? Where do you stand?
58Sunliner
(4,391 posts)nolabear
(41,990 posts)Xoan
(25,322 posts)nolabear
(41,990 posts)Seriously, is it worth explaining more?
CrackityJones75
(2,403 posts)I am not for uniting with those who want to take away peoples rights to bodily autonomy, who want to push more of our money to the richest, and to those that will do nothing to stop the outrageous gun problems.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)Mr.Bill
(24,316 posts)had let the confederate states leave.
NewHendoLib
(60,018 posts)But as things stand, they are simply toxic. Uniting with a group whose sole purposes are worshiping the orange idol, or "owning the libs" is a fool's errand.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)Theres a point where you turn away and just unite with those you think you can maybe win over? Makes sense.
NewHendoLib
(60,018 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,393 posts)nolabear
(41,990 posts)Ive struggled with REALLY, what do we do? for years now.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,393 posts)If I decide unity isn't possible -- and I have decided that -- then I determine what I want to change that's within my ability, with my abilities being direct cash donations, mutual aid and direct action. I divest myself of hope of anything other than benign neglect from political and civic leaders, and think about the kind of change I can bring in my own community. I've found that "really, what do we do?" leads me, personally, to inaction at best and despair at worst, so I've brought my focus in to a much more narrow view.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)My kids impress me every day with their dedication to schools and community service. I teach and support liberal causes and candidates, and I do a lot of listening.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,393 posts)The work I do has over the years increasingly moved out of politics -- I vote, but that's about it -- and into things I see that have immediate effects on people's lives.
Chainfire
(17,605 posts)Split it at the Mississippi and relocate the population with libs to the East and Fascist to the West. In a few years the Western paradise would collapse and then we could consider reunification under a new set of rules.
(by the way, this is not a serious proposal)
nolabear
(41,990 posts)Chainfire
(17,605 posts)nolabear
(41,990 posts)Pyryck
(99 posts)We have no choice but to engage, encourage and help them step back from the precipice otherwise democracy is done, over and we then argue about who gets what leftovers.
Duncan Grant
(8,282 posts)Im interested in what you mean when you say hearts and minds.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)Im all in favor of every law protecting all who seek identity equality, human rights, body autonomy, and more than I can realistically type.
Do we work to try to win allieshearts and minds? Do we just impose law without doing that too?
As I said, Im not advocating one side or the other in this particular thread, though Im a bleeding heart liberal myself.
Duncan Grant
(8,282 posts)A thought experiment:
Its not Stacey Abrams job to win over intractable ignorance regarding the black experience in The United States. Its not Charles Blows job to win over intractable arrogance over the murder of George Floyd (and the very, very long list of others).
And so on, and so on
The people who are being targeted for unity need to do their part. And I dont think their belief systems and culture will allow them to transcend their toxic ineptitudes.
If I misunderstand you, please know Im trying to comprehend who were unifying with.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)Certainly laws that oppose all the things we oppose like racism and unfettered guns and discrimination and abortion abolition must be passed. But by division I mean just imposing and not working to knock down those prejudices.
I think the kids of extremists can sometimes be reasoned with if we dont become extremists in our despising their parents.
Duncan Grant
(8,282 posts)Personally, after many decades Ive abandoned that strategy. Ill be the guy who holds the line, not surrendering an inch. Im best suited for that at this point in my life.
I wont accommodate conservatism and its implications for LGBTQI+ people. I dont consider myself an extremist just principled. Ill consider unity when conservatives do as much work on the general welfare of the country as I have.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)And I dont say that w/o acknowledging that I want that unity so we have power.
Autumn
(45,120 posts)not work with us. Believe them. There can be no unity. None.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)Autumn
(45,120 posts)and let the American people vote on them or not. I don't know who something like that could be brought about but every couple of years politicians spend billions to get elected and nothing gets done for the people. Campaigns should be funded by the government, no donations, a certain amount and that's it, you are elected or not. Get rid of lifetime appointments on all courts including the SC. Judges should apply for jobs just as anyone else does and they can be fired just like anyone else. They all get Retirement at 62 and that is with SS, same as the rest of us. Politicians should have term limits, retirement at 62. They do not get to buy any stocks while in office. No more coming out of office as multi millionaires.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)People love technology and yet dont seem to recognize we can accurately vote (not to mention the profit in fomenting distrust of it) on just about everything.
markie
(22,757 posts)in the sense we have general common goals...
however, we cannot be united when large numbers of people:
-refuse to believe climate change and work to alleviate it
-don't want women to control their own bodies
-think it is ok for people to own and carry assault weapons
-refuse to talk about our history and teach children the truth
-have their own reality apart from the truth
-want to erase those that are "different" specifically LGBTQ folks
-want to impose a religion on others
-continue to hate on immigrants
there are some things that we should just not allow in a 21st Century democratic world... a diverse population is healthy and there is much room for differences of opinion about so many things...
some should never be tolerated
nolabear
(41,990 posts)Sounds like you believe theres no hope for change in a large segment. Which is fair. How do we treat them then, once we impose our desires? Again, I agree with having to do that, but do we keep working on them or give up?
markie
(22,757 posts)I am not saying there is no hope, just that we cannot pretend that what they believe and/or want to impose on the rest of us is ok.
I would rather educate than 'impose' but it is true that many will never see things as you and I do (as well as the majority of people)...
seriously, our biggest problem is that power has been manipulated and we really are looking at minority rule and that can't hold.
Somehow, we must change the Electoral College and Gerrymandering, we must challenge all the new voting rules and make it easier (and dare I say sexy) to vote, we must do a better job educating our kids, so many things we could and should do...
nolabear
(41,990 posts)One place I think is utterly black and white, in more ways than one, is One Citizen One Vote. We can easily count the popular vote. Theres no reason to do it any other way. And suppression in any form should simply not be allowed. Thats a fight we have to have if were going to actually be a representative democracy.
BannonsLiver
(16,439 posts)In my view America is over anyway.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)Ive learned a lot these last few years about my blindness to how bad its always been for many. I mean, I thought I knew but I didnt have to stare it in the face.
I get your point I think, though.
BannonsLiver
(16,439 posts)And of course at least nearly half of our people are rotten and evil, so theres that. I suppose its all interrelated though. You cant very well have a standup country when nearly half its population are proudly ignorant bottom of the barrel types.
I wish I could be more optimistic. Its not something that makes me happy.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)BannonsLiver
(16,439 posts)forthemiddle
(1,382 posts)1/2 of my friends in real life are Conservative, the other 1/2 Liberal. Its been that way my whole life. I love each and every one of them, and I wont ask them to change (just as they know they wont change me). But thats real life.
On the internet, I feel we can be anonymous and be internet warriors. The media feeds into this.
So even though I may be passionate about my beliefs, I am also passionate about my private life, and I love them all.
I honestly think the internet, and social media, has made compromise a really dirty word, and even though I am apart of it, I really dont like it. Call me old fashioned, but I kind of want politeness and respect to come back into fashion.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)I was raised in a South thats very conservative in many ways and very much live-and-let-live in others. Gulf Coast, New Orleans, Western Caribbean. So I have family thats very conservative and theres a lot we avoid. We cant always because some of my kids cousins, all adults, are rabid right wingers and I just cant talk to them. My minority grandchildren would not be in danger from them, but they absolutely would be from people they agree with.
So I walk that tightrope. And social media twists it all into extremes, that sometimes has horrific consequences. I think thats one reason I long for an actual conversation. And so far Im getting a pretty good one!
forthemiddle
(1,382 posts)That phrase generally seems to work with my family and friends, and when it doesnt you can read the room.
If Im overwhelmed with Conservative members, I tend to walk away, and let them rant away, because after all I know there is no minds to change (same goes for the sole Conservative that might walk into the Liberal group), if we are evenly split, we tend to be more respective of the conversation. But that happens everywhere, the majority group tends to be the bullying group, and its best to walk away.
We have so many non political things in common, its usually very easy to stay away from partisan politics.
Voltaire2
(13,119 posts)If we unite around not holding the insurrection leaders accountable, then no I am against that sort of unity.
If we unite around denying reproductive rights for women, count me out.
If we unite around prohibiting discussions about diversity equity and inclusion in our schools, well no I cant unite around that either.
I could go on. I see nothing much we can unite on.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)I agree with all you said. But do we count those who disagree out, are there some we can cohabit with, can we keep talking and hoping we can improve more and more, and create more humane ideals, or is it impossible and we have to divide and just hang into power and forget them?
Maybe still not clear but the thread has some good thoughts.
NewHendoLib
(60,018 posts)Media landscape - pretty much dominated by the right, with a whole lot of "both sides do it", there can be no unity.
Add toxic social networking in as well.
We are in quite a pickle.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)But the media and political sell-outs have shaken me to the core. Particularly media. I once aspired to be a journalist and had high ideals about that. No more. 🙁
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Eliminating capitalism does not eliminate personal greed for either material good or power (greed for power is a huge motivator, for many far more than wealth). ALL systems can be corrupted to funnel both to those who pursue them.
Notably, ALL systems would include the same people as now. All LW socialist economies have become corrupted, usually quickly morphing to RW methods to control populations and hold power, and to RW leaders.
Shouldn't the objection be to lack of morals and the integrity to adhere to them? To demonstration of hypocrisy and weak to poor character? To inadequate/lack of regulation to compel good faith performance?
To have good government under any system, we have to elect good people.
roamer65
(36,747 posts)That is when I would favor secession and I know the founding fathers would agree as well.
If states like TX and AL, for example, want to go down the road of fascism they can go there alone.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)Lets say we divided and there were non-fascist, old school conservatives who wanted out. Would you take them?
This is a good discussion.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)roamer65
(36,747 posts)Sanity is a very definite litmus test, IMO.
Mr.Bill
(24,316 posts)Even if he was a Democrat I would not have voted for him.
roamer65
(36,747 posts)Any person who hates Dump is a potential ally.
Its fascist versus democracy now.
CrispyQ
(36,500 posts)How do you unite w/people who want to take away your right to vote because they disagree with you? Take away your rights because they don't like the way you look, or because they believe they are morally/socially superior to you. You either believe we're all equal & deserve the same voice in government & the same opportunities in society, or you don't. How do you compromise with that?
I have one repub family member I was fond of when I was young & we struck up an online exchange & when I challenged him on taking away voting rights & the racism that the party embraces, he said, "That's not the part of the party I vote for." So I asked him, "What policies do you vote for? Tax cuts for the rich & deregulation for the corporations? Cuz that's all your party has. They have no healthcare plan, no climate change plan, & their only immigration plan is to build a wall & your proud boys & oath freakers showed the world that walls don't work last January." Crickets. He'd vote for Trump again, bet on it.
roamer65
(36,747 posts)Same goes today.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)In psychology, thought stopping is a clinical term. You see it in people who have to cling to an idea so much that when theres a real, factual, logical challenge, their brain simply wont go there and they shut down or go to learned lines. Its hard to see in people you care for. And what to do can be painful.
CrispyQ
(36,500 posts)Huge numbers of people in denial about how grim our environmental situation is. It's not looking good for humanity.
MenloParque
(512 posts)That diversity and inclusivity is celebrated. Sadly, its not. I live in the most progressive city in the nation but as I step outside my doorstep each morning I have to walk past multiple vehicles with militia and gun stickers, lets go brandon flags, all of it. Just the looks that these people give me as I walk down the street to the park with my dogs is enough to make my feel on edge. The other side hates us and we are definitely enemies. As a black woman I dont know where I can feel completely safe if I cant feel safe in west coast cities with majority dem leadership.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)We talk about racism as if its somewhere else, but thats a comfortable illusion among many of us white people. The obvious Trumpism isnt so open in the city but you get into the little towns, it gets rough.
Im an old-ish white woman, which is some of the best protective coloration there is, but I have a black grand baby and a Latino one, and I fear for them. I try every day to figure out how to keep them both safe and comfortable with who they are. Let one of those monsters harm them, though, and the Wrath of Grammy will come down. So I have my limits for sure.
Kid Berwyn
(14,950 posts)Thatll unite the country PFQ.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)Im all for it. It needs to happen. The others are trying to gain his cultists and I do y think they get the level of worship and delusion.
gulliver
(13,186 posts)The vast majority of peopleDems, Republicans, and Independentshave common sense. The Dem and Republican platforms, for example, aren't so completely irreconcilable that we need to be at each other's throats. Dems don't want "big government," for example, any more than Republicans do. Dems want the government to be the right size for its commonsense missions. (Full disclosure: I happen to think government might be about 50% too small and that Republicans are standing in the way of consumer demand for common needs. Republicans pushing arbitrary limits on government size are frustrating, but I don't hate them for it.)
Most of the right are also for commonsense gun control. And the right is gradually shifting on climate change as they start to deal with the pain it is causing. Eventually, they'll even try to say acting against climate change was their idea in the first place. (And they'll believe themselves.)
To unite, we need to heavily and vocally prioritize the real needs of the vast majority of Americans and deprioritize any conflicting needs of the tiny few outliers. To respect majority rule means, well, respecting majority rule.
We need to magnify the voices of those who support the principles of the Dem platform and our elected officeholders (who represent voters) and speak against any self-elected activists and protesters who falsely and undemocratically try to claim they speak for us. They're welcome to speak, of course, just not for us. And the party should actively emphasize that every time someone tries to leave the wrong impression. Just say, "Those protesters are welcome to speak, but they are speaking for themselves. The party did not organize the protest under our governing democratic rules, so the protest is not a Dem-endorsed protest."
If we do that, I think we would have a Dem majority, and our principles would win. The Republicans would be forced to sane up, though, so we would have competition in the common sense arena.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)I understand you want to do that, and you can want it, but I cant let you hurt yourself or anyone else.
treestar
(82,383 posts)"we are divided" is starting to get tiresome to hear. It can be a lot worse. The pundits know nothing about history or about any other countries.
It would be nice if Republicans would compromise again. How did they get this way?
krawhitham
(4,647 posts)nolabear
(41,990 posts)kcr
(15,318 posts)As long as the GOP refuses to act in good faith, unity is an unattainable goal.
Vinca
(50,302 posts)so they can have more of what they want. At this point we'll be lucky if Trump isn't reinstalled in 2024 and has us all executed.
KPN
(15,649 posts)currently understand them -- no common-sense and effective gun controls; no tax increases on the wealthy and corporations; no right to choose when it comes to pregnancy; no unhindered right to vote; no serious efforts to move away from fossil fuels; no meaningful regulation of capitalism to better level the playing field; privatization of virtually everything, including governance; the list goez on and on.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)Its really been a good one, the kind I wish we could have across the aisle as the Congress critters say. That longing can be problematic I know, but I am holding onto what I hope is pragmatic idealism.
Sympthsical
(9,093 posts)It's a very complicated topic as you note, but one thing I'll note is that I almost never have a problem getting along with people who have different politics than me. I think it's because I'm just not very partisan. I'm a liberal/progressive Democrat and always vote that way while largely supporting policies that would follow under that umbrella.
However.
I'm not on a team. It's not about my side winning or losing any particular argument on any particular day. I think our side has better policies, but sometimes we're just wrong on something. One thing in the past week that I like is that the Left course corrected in the S.F. election. We want criminal justice reform, but we saw what Boudin was doing and had the gumption to say, "Ok, no. Whatever that is is bad, and there is no reason for us to defend this."
Of course, out of partisanship, some people are still defending it into the ground.
But it was a rare instance of saying, "Nope. This isn't working. It sounded good, but in practice this is insanity."
However, because the team always has to win, the admission that we've gotten something wrong can be incredibly difficult to manage. People won't even have the discussion. And we set up little words and phrases that are like landmines. If you step on one, forget it. Discussion over. You are now the bad guy. The end. I win the argument because you said the word!
It often devolves into the world's most tedious game of Taboo, and the verboten words or ideas are shifting on the daily.
Once you decide you are all that is Good and Righteous in the world and the other side is all that is Evil and Mendacious, you're done. There is no discussion possible much less cooperation. Everyone retreats to their bunkers and throws monkey shit at one another.
But the world doesn't work this way if it is to work. I think about my neighborhood. I have Trump people around. I've talked with them. I know their politics. I don't ring their doorbell and scream at them then run home to brag to my partner about what I've done. If there's a problem in the neighborhood, you have to come together and start talking about, "Well, what do we do about this."
I do not egg their houses and then post my wins about it online.
But that's the equivalent of how many of us behave. It's not productive or constructive. It's not even adult. It's corrosive, toxic, and as we do all this winning, the neighborhood falls apart around us.
And I'll say the other side has these same team-minded people. Everything I said above goes for them, too. So I'm not picking us out as special in this regard. But social media have aggravated this. It's all about getting those clicks, those likes, those retweets and social approval. "I have struck a mighty blow against the Enemy!"
It's shitty behavior. I don't know what will change it.
But as long as we think having a discussion or even entertaining verboten ideas is wrong, there can be no progress. I know there are some topics I will not touch. I will not discuss them, because we are not allowed to discuss them as rational, reasonable adults who are thinking their way through situations in search of solution. We are put into corners by internet mobs and would be authoritarians who have decided Wrong Speech and Wrong Think must be forever prosecuted.
Well, ok. But things don't get better that way. The road to progress is not an arrow always pointing up. When backlash and course correction comes, they get ugly. When you have no place for people to let out pressure and allow for equilibrium, things have a habit of exploding.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)I agree with you totally. It gets to be very Eye for an eye very fast when you only want to fight them and score points with us. Ive replied to lots of replies here with all the caveatsno we cant let them enact terrible laws, yes, we need to do everything we can to protect and enable the success of all with the exception of anything that restricts the life of or harms another. But Ill talk to anyone with curiosity until I cant (Im not without limits to what Ill take) and then Ill walk.
Because of where I live and what I do (faculty and board president of a psychology training institute) I have a harder time with those who get mad because we cant magically make change rather than going through the legal and practical channels we have to. I empathize. I invite them to help. They find out how hard the work is, and how slow. But the rewards are great. Eventually. I hope for the same when trying to change political minds. If you slam the door then they cant hear you either.
GoodRaisin
(8,926 posts)Not with the way the other side wants to govern and to treat people.