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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhat a Fool Believes
Last edited Sat Jun 18, 2022, 10:37 AM - Edit history (1)
"A learned fool is more of a fool than an ignorant fool. " Molière (Jean-Baptiste Poquelin)
A gentleman contacted me today on the internet, someone I haven't talked to since the late 1960s. I do keep in contact with his sister, and knew that he had maintained what I consider a hippie lifestyle. He is a talented musician, very intelligent, and a life-long Democrat.
He said that since the start of the January 6 Committee hearings, he finds it harder to talk with ignorant fools. He said that he has stopped talking to some of the people that he encounters where he lives. Since he lives in Florida, I said I can understand that, but that I think educated fools -- a species found in all fifty states -- are even more frustrating to bump into.
I am not, of course, pretending that I came upon John Eastman in person. The mere watching of the third presentation by the J6 hearing, which focused some attention on Eastman, was both good and bad enough. It is a reminder that the gravitational force of a sociopathic "leader" not only draws in creeps, it brings forth their true essence. One might suspect that Eastman is on a collision course with legal consequences.
It will be interesting to learn Eastman's role in connecting with the Proud Boys and other groups associated with planning the violent coup. Currently, some forum members are speculating who was the connecting figure. Being prone to using models, let me suggest we view the White House as a hydra, with tentacles that include several that reached into the militias. Besides Eastman, there is Steve Bannon. Also, since the hydra has regenerative powers, we must inlude Roger Stone, one of the infamous Brooks Brothers Riot planners and participants.
(Note: In the 1960s, "The Hydra" was the underground newspaper in the school I attended. When the three brothers who created it -- who considered themselves to be Weather Underground -- went to state prison, I reprised the newspaper.)
It strikes me as interesting that several republicans are being honored for doing the right thing. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that some did, and others like Liz Cheney still are. I do respect that. But it strikes me as a bit odd that "doing the right thing" is now unique in the republican party, rather than what should be expected. Perhaps one day we will reach a point where doing the right thing is expected in government.
One more thing: there have been reports of some tensions between the J6 Committee and the Department of Justice. This is neither something to discount or to think will create a crisis. First, it is extremely common, when two government agencies are in semi-coordination with a specific group -- no matter at what level of agencies -- for their to be some tensions. This happens at the local, state, and federal levels. But it generally works out, and reportedly will be resolved in July.
Karadeniz
(22,528 posts)H2O Man
(73,558 posts)Can't wait for the next hearing!
Karadeniz
(22,528 posts)H2O Man
(73,558 posts)to my youth, and watching the Senate's Watergate hearings. My cousin said that some of the powerful new information reminded him of when Alexander Butterfield testified about Nixon's taping system -- something he had actually shared with the Committee the day before, behind closed doors. It was a different hydra that brought Nicpn down, of course, known collectively as "Deep Throat."
H2O Man
(73,558 posts)You have accurately identified the song I was singing as I wrote this! Heck of a good song!
roamer65
(36,745 posts)H2O Man
(73,558 posts)I have experienced it in real life decades ago!
llmart
(15,540 posts)I saw them in concert three times. Sure brings back memories.
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)H2O Man
(73,558 posts)Eastman is the proof of that!
Some of the smartest and wisest people I've had the pleasure of knowing were self-educated.
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)I dropped out of high school (honor roll student) in order to self educate. Lol. I am not (smarter) than most people, but I am very hard to fool. Being street smart, experiencing many different things in life, reading, learning history, are a few things that can make you wise, nobodys fool.
BlueBloodedAmerican
(117 posts)H2O Man
(73,558 posts)I think he will likely be the republican nominee in 2024.
BlueBloodedAmerican
(117 posts)H2O Man
(73,558 posts)2naSalit
(86,643 posts)How do the Fools Survive?
(Which I like better than "What a Fool Believes"
H2O Man
(73,558 posts)There is something refreshing about seeing government in action, rather than just the republican inaction other than insurrection. I'm enjoying the coverage of Ginni Thomas. Though she said she will gladly testify to the Committee, I doubt that like hell.
2naSalit
(86,643 posts)I can't see Ginni T doing anything of the sort. I expect her to try and claim some kind of executive privilege of some sort or claim that her hubby was involved and she can't testify against him or some rubbish.
She's going to create a fifteen minutes of fame style scene, no doubt. She's one I really want to see behind bars, though.
Kid Berwyn
(14,907 posts)Corruption in public office is treason and its treason for Democrats as Republicans.
The Governor never dehumanized or ridiculed the opposition, calling them, Our Republican friends.
Great OP and thread, H2O Man.
H2O Man
(73,558 posts)I remember helping an area DA get elected to the House in 2008. My daughters played a big role in going door-to-door, and we became "family friends." We got together for a picnic to plan the re-election campaign in the summer of 2010, and the Congressman told me that DC was so corrupt, that he wasn't sure he wanted to serve a second term. That has to change.
Kid Berwyn
(14,907 posts)
to interview Michigans former governor, whod been appointed to serve as Ambassador to Canada. This was during Iran-Contra and so I asked him about the difference between corruption in Lansing and DC.
He acknowledged the Constitutional crisis created by Poppys pardon and had heard about the October Surprise but did not want to address them directly a political pro. He was profound in that he described state-level corruption as based on money, while in Washington corruption was ideological.
H2O Man
(73,558 posts)the synergy of ideology and money. It's a powerful force. Mix in some cowardice, and you've got today's republican party.
erronis
(15,286 posts)Council for National Policy - secretive organization funding most of the RW anti-democracy groups.
Great list in Anne Nelson's appendix to "Shadow Network" (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/46020029-shadow-network).
cachukis
(2,242 posts)H2O Man
(73,558 posts)I wish that I had the ability to express how much I appreciate this! But I don't, so I will just say thank you ..... and I will be sharing this on other internet sites!
cachukis
(2,242 posts)Sadly, I have shared this with the stupid. They have not recognized themselves in the explanation.
H2O Man
(73,558 posts)cachukis
(2,242 posts)Key Takeaways
The amygdala in the limbic system plays a key role in how animals assess and respond to environmental threats and challenges by evaluating the emotional importance of sensory information and prompting an appropriate response.
The main job of the amygdala is to regulate emotions, such as fear and aggression.
The amygdala is also involved in tying emotional meaning to our memories. reward processing, and decision-making.
When it is stimulated electrically, animals show aggressive behavior and when it's removed, they no longer show aggressive behavior.
flying rabbit
(4,634 posts)Kid Berwyn
(14,907 posts)Adlai Stevenson, Jr.: Madam, that's not enough. I need a majority.
H2O Man
(73,558 posts)malaise
(269,024 posts)Thanks
malaise
(269,024 posts)rogue elements in the military and leadership from some of the mercenary offshoots.
H2O Man
(73,558 posts)Do you consider Mike Flynn to be a tentical on the hydra, or a testicle?
malaise
(269,024 posts)😀😀
I really should have included Flynn in the OP, as he surely was one of the connections. It is discouraging to see how many ex- and current military and law enforcement people are in the Trump cult. But then again, it takes a special type to be hyper-concerned with how polished their shoes are.
malaise
(269,024 posts)Troubling signs like the Bible quotes on rockets and the welcoming of princely mercenaries.
All were RWs.
H2O Man
(73,558 posts)I was thinking about last night was the conflict between science and those who self-identify as evangelical christians. How it used to be that less and one third of that flock thought a person with moral flaws might be an acceptable "leader," until Trump -- when it shot up to over 70% over a week's time. And how the rejection of evolution morphed into the disbelief of taking precautions against covid. I think that is connected to the point you raise here ..... and suspect it will lead to another rambling essay in the near future!
malaise
(269,024 posts)Al Gore was correct re The Assault on Reason.
Ignorance and stupidity rule the lives of way too many across our planet.
erronis
(15,286 posts)a conversation with (damn dangling preposition!)
mopinko
(70,113 posts)good post, but now it's gonna be the doobies on the headphones in the garden today.
H2O Man
(73,558 posts)I was listening to a lot of the Beatles and the Plastic Ono Band while gardening yesterday. I have a busy day today ..... kind of ..... an old friend from collecting artifacts from the fields dies a while back, and his widow wants to give his collection to me and my son. She knows my boy will be taking care of them when I'm gone, and his son after him.
mopinko
(70,113 posts)when i'm in the garden and dont want to be bothered, i put on the phones.
since there are some songs i cant not sing, i can work unmolested for as long as i'm able.
H2O Man
(73,558 posts)when I'm confident that there is no one around for miles. Might get arrested otherwise. That's one of the many advantages of living as an isolated hermit! Ha!
mopinko
(70,113 posts)i was a flat alto all my life because of muscle spasms. the proper dosage of ja's gift fixed that.
having done 12 yrs in catholic school, i def had the kind of childhood experience that lays down neural pathways that never die.
my teach, but more importantly, his pro singer wife think i've gotten acceptable.
the most shocking thing to me was finding out that i had a good ear. turns out i have the gene for tone deafness but those nuns and their bakelight pitch pipes fixed that.
now dancing- that's a whole nuther subject. i only break out the moves when in eminent danger of human contact.
It's odd -- all of my kids are talented musicians. My siblings, too. But not me! My only on-stage event of note was was David Peel & the Lower East Side Gang decades ago. Older forum members will remember David!
mopinko
(70,113 posts)even in hs, i think 4th yr music was piano. but we sure did sing.
the fastest add/drop of my college career was piano 101.
followed closely by french 1. even tho i was looking at an apprenticeship in a restaurant in lyon at the time. and worked w an asshole who bitched in french all day. but i digress.
i made sure my kids had music lessons, even if it was only plastic bucket drums. they all ended up in the school band, tho.
they all are good, but sadly all walked away from it but 1. he's a drummer, mostly as therapy.
he mocks my time hard. was tapping the steering wheel driving w him the other day.
him- you hear the snare mom? that's the beat. hit the snare.
sheshe2
(83,785 posts)Your music is in your words. That in itself is a talent. H2O Man.
H2O Man
(73,558 posts)jaxexpat
(6,831 posts)Plainly, 4/4-time signature. The hoe striking its weed targets precisely on the downbeat, "!YOU!". As in "instant karma's gonna get to !YOU!". " and you, and you, and you". The grim reaper at toil.
The dogs howled and now the chickens won't lay. I believe several, otherwise, innocent volunteer faunae may have paid the ultimate price for your emotional investment in politics but that'll be our secret. Hush-Hush, Bob's your uncle, etc.
Whiskeytide
(4,461 posts)Law 2: The probability that a certain person be stupid is independent of any other characteristic of that person.
H2O Man
(73,558 posts)I don't know why it still surprises me sometimes ..... like when I was listening to people describing their interactions with Eastman, and was wondering what the heck he was thinking? But you are, of course, correct. Thank you!
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)I could have lived happily without learning how much "true essence" existed to be brought forth in people I once was able to respect, even admire, as more strongly defined by their good qualities.
Good post. Hydra do have regenerative powers, and always will.
H2O Man
(73,558 posts)I was thinking about this late into the night. I started watching documentaries on Homo erectus -- "Upright man" -- and wondering what went so wrong with modern humans. They inhabited much of the Earth for close to two million years, which is mighty impressive. I fear that we are a failed species.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)I keep noticing that most of the duds embracing extremist behaviors have also already had years to reproduce.
That said, over those two million years, how frequently did families and villages became dysfunctional under bad leadership or some sociopathy and end up failing? Disappearing.
So far I still see our generations as incredibly successful, at an apex in every way, far beyond anything that came before. Including achieving astonishing, previously literally unimaginable wellbeing for billions. We've also, of course, been creating enormous new problems that never existed before.
Yeah, I'm an optimist. Based on the past, I still think most of our billions and their institutions will find ways to survive this growing perfect storm we've brought ourselves to, continuing to learn and do better as survival requires.
H2O Man
(73,558 posts)have made great advances in technology. I, for one, appreciate things like running water in the house, and of course flush toilets, though I often tend to take them for granted. But I think that the damage we have done and continue doing to nature -- the environment -- will result in our extinction.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)philosophy, civilization and social structures. We are not the same humans now that we were then. I believe it'd require a powerful god or gods to force extinction on humanity and that even planetwide devastation would be both uneven and followed by relatively fast returns to something approaching today's standards of wellbeing in various places -- due to our accumulated knowledge and institutional memories and histories of what had been.
And due to what we are capable of. After all, we are humans.
rubbersole
(6,691 posts)If all we are leaving our children is climate collapse, mass migrations, resource wars and greed glorification, then we are a failed species. I wish I had enough optimism to think the energized youth of today could save the planet. We might not have given them enough to work with.
Great post, H2O Man!
H2O Man
(73,558 posts)The environment we are leaving is the #1 reason I think we are a failing species. Most people are at least semi-aware of the crisis, but there is an inability to change direction. For that would require changes in behaviors.
Thank you.
patphil
(6,180 posts)I definitely agree with your last paragraph concerning the discussions back and forth between J6 and DOJ. All will be resolved.
It's going to be an interesting summer.
H2O Man
(73,558 posts)It is best when Congress and the DOJ coordinate efforts. There was the infamous failure to do so, that led to the felony convictions of Oliver North and John Poindexter being overturned in the Iran-Contra scandal.
bigtree
(85,997 posts)...are the number of people who've assumed DOJ 'isn't doing anything' and has been just waiting around for Congress to gather the evidence.
More interesting were critics in Congress, some on the committee publicly castigating DOJ to act faster, who couldn't see the importance of providing that same 'work product' of the congressional committee to the branch of government which actually prosecutes crimes before fully informing us about the extent of them.
It was that nexus of realization which many found themselves in the position of chiding DOJ to 'do more,' while almost simultaneously defending the committee denying prosecutor requests for witness transcripts since April, asking the committee for potentially more evidence to reconcile with their own.
There's the DOJ in grand juries and courts, with strict obligations to provide EVERY scrap of evidence they use to prosecute perps to defense counsels in Discovery motions, practically begging the committee, repeatedly, to be mindful of their cases moving through grand juries and courts as they publicly reveal evidence DOJ may be using, or evidence which may conflict with what they've obtained in their numerous depositions and subpoenas - evidence which can't be revealed by prosecutors except through actual court activity, and isn't as apparent as the evidence presented in the televised hearings, but needs to be worked through challenges over privilege, standing, and other defense motions which may limit their use in court.
It's not a dilatory request meant to drag their feet, as some have suggested, it's an obligation which sinks criminal prosecutions if not accomplished and carried out. The broadcast of all the evidence in the middle of trial is being predictably argued by the accused to be prejudicial, and can get them acquitted if they can prove ANY evidence was held back by the prosecution. (see former Sen. Ted Stevens' 2009 trial when Attorney General Eric Holder determined that evidence that should have been shared with defense lawyers for Ted Stevens was not shared and had to drop the case)
And yes, it got worked out, but not before DOJ had to go before the judge to try and delay the Aug. court date where Proud Boys scheduled to begin their trial had formally objected, not just because of demands for the committee's 'work product,' but on the complaint that hearings were taking place at the same time as the trial.
The 'tensions' are certainly familiar conflicts between political goals and prosecutorial ones. Even getting all that, there's still the question of why Congress would want to prioritize what's basically a political hearing over actually prosecuting the very perps they're highlighting in their presentations.
Here's the committee making all of this public at the same time DOJ is trying to make prosecutions stick in court. Personally, I'm not seeing the actual value in delaying prosecutions so Congress can rush it all into the public arena, prioritizing talk over action.
But the main problem in explaining this important conflict has been defending against notions from DOJ critics that government prosecutors are just sitting on their hands, waiting for Congress, instead of conducting their own investigations. For institutional and functional reasons, DOJ can't really defend against those charges of inactivity, because their grand juries are conducted in secret, and most evidence of prosecutor activity normally only comes through court appearances and proceedings.
That gives room for all sorts of nonsensical assumptions about what DOJ should do, or has done. It's very easy to view Congress, which has little enforcement authority, as the prosecutors - and to view the hearings with their neat conclusions as the essential prosecution, staving off interference from a muddling Justice Dept.
There's a false impression that's taken hold of a DOJ that's either unwilling, or bumbling in the effort to hold senior officials accountable. It infects every success prosecutors have made in moving that case forward through the courts with cynicism and apathy.
It's hard not to see much of it as deliberate, but whether or not it's meant to disinform, there's definitely a lot of destructive ignorance in the public about the roles played by the different entities both supporting and opposing accountability for the Capitol invasion which can only advantage opponents of accountability.
H2O Man
(73,558 posts)Modern society wants things to be "instant." And for it to be provided to them, something that can be traced to television providing entertainment without the entertained contributing to the effort. Too many discussions of socio-political issues take the form of the inferior memes that are akin to the TV dinners of discourse. This allows to a Tucker Carlson to prosper.
It really wasn't that long ago when many were impatient with the J6 Committee, if I remember correctly. Yet when one considers how long that Committee has been active, I'd say that it is mighty impressive. But the impatience of the modern world provides fertile ground for planting the seeds of doubt that you so correctly identify -- both misinformation and disinformation. And they need not plow deeply to get a crop of confused people.
The J6 Committee's investigators include a number of talented former federal prosecutors. I am confident that if we are patient, we will find that they will have coordinated very well with the current DOJ.
bigtree
(85,997 posts)...and the republican participation in that committee in laying out the facts without dissent is almost unprecedented for something this consequential. And, no doubt, legislators will soon come to fully appreciate whatever DOJ does in court to further their efforts, if they don't already.
It must be frustrating for Congress to have so little control over those prosecutions, but their efforts in the hearings will be essential in gaining support for institutional remedies and regulations they can craft to further protect and defend our democratic process and institutions.
Both branches are essentially currently working toward the same goal of accountability and justice surrounding the Capitol invasion, but each have separate functions, both vital to our democracy, yet necessarily independent of each other. Both should be appreciated for their efforts made.
PatSeg
(47,482 posts)It really is sad that a republican doing the right thing is seen as heroic. I never thought I'd see the day when such a thing was viewed as courageous and brave, being most people do it every day.
That said, I am grateful for people like Cheney and Kinzinger, as I know they and their families have been subjected to many threats. I'm just disappointed that their behavior is so rare among republicans. It will be hard in the future to ever be able to give any of them the benefit of the doubt.
I respect Cheney and Kinzinger, and even Pence. But it is really sad that we are at the point where they stand out from the republican party at large.
PatSeg
(47,482 posts)republican politicians and those who support them. I used to think I understood people, but the older I get, the more I realize how much I don't know.
Saoirse9
(3,680 posts)He and Clark both saw the Big Lie as an opportunity to grab power for themselves from an obviously unhinged orange lunatic. Neither of them believed the Big Lie, it was just a convenient way to get something for themselves from that tangerine traitor. And near as I can tell, neither of them thought for a moment about what would happen if they were NOT successful. No they didn't think about that until after 1/6 failed and then they sought pardons.
Just like your friend I'm less and less tolerant of fools. You already know this because you've been listening to me whine about my TFG loving cousins. I wish I could meet your friend since we're both Floridians.
This sentence is so dead accurate that it worries me:
It is a reminder that the gravitational force of a sociopathic "leader" not only draws in creeps, it brings forth their true essence.
Makes me wonder if people in my life that I love were creeps all along and I didn't see it. The stress of dealing with relatives who are all in with TFG is killing me.
H2O Man
(73,558 posts)in all people, I suppose, to be foolish at times, and say or do the wrong things. But it is a special type of inner-essence we see in these lads.
This thread reminds me of the old days on DU.
Martin Eden
(12,870 posts)They see a narcissistic pathological liar like Donald Trump for what he is, then make a conscious decision to aid him every step of the way along his path of destruction because they believe it will serve their own interests or because they believe it is a means to ends they have long pursued.
Which brings to mind the following question:
Does that mean they are NOT "fools" after all?
Answering this question may require specific examples and at least a modicum of subjective judgement.
Are people who genuinely believe abortion is murder fools for helping to elect a monster like Trump in order to secure a Supreme Court majority on the threshold of overturning Roe?
My subjective opinion is they are at the very least deluded if they believe God chose Donald Trump for that purpose and others. I also think they are idiots (or definitely fooled) if they have swallowed the propaganda dished out by Fox News. Also hypocrites on the concept of "pro-life" when their support for poor children ends at birth while the also oppose vaccines and regulations to curb environmental toxins & greenhouse gas emissions.
The answer to my question is growing complicated and a bit long so I will get more to the point, to wit:
Are the "learned fools" like Eastman and other highly educated operatives in the coup attempt really FOOLS?
They are deluded fools if they believe they can "save" America by overthrowing its democracy, but their motivation may have been personal fame and fortune rather than serving a higher cause, however ignoble. Some believers truly want a White Nationalist autocracy and/or theocracy; first and foremost they are enemiesI.
When their schemes come crashing down to destroy their fortunes and possibly send them to prison, they are proven to be fools by the real world consequences of their actions.
What concerns me most are the schemes who never suffer consequences or actually succeed, never being caught and eventually dying with the most toys.
My wife and I had a disagreement on this today. She (a Christian believer in God) remarked they have no souls, whereas I (agnostic on religion) said if people do indeed have souls then so do they, and theirs are likely damned.
And therein are they proven to be fools in a realm beyond the "real world" we live in.
Small consolation for those of us who suffer real consequences for their evil deeds in life.
usonian
(9,810 posts)Do ya remember Bill Buckley. Various people say that he was the cutesy cover for the racism and hate that less erudite people were brewing. I also recall that white supremacist leaders aim to attract more people to their cause by various propaganda.
IMO, like vinegar attracting more than honey, but they aren't emotionally mature.
Disclaimer: this is speculation and it would take me days to find the sources.
If you want a visual example, check out the movie "Rope" directed by Alfred Hitchcock and starring James Cagney.
No spoiler given, but it's about "superiority" of so-called elites.
Magoo48
(4,712 posts)NBachers
(17,117 posts)was Dan Quayle's role in saving our republic:
https://theillogicalseminary.com/2021/12/11/jesus-did-dan-quayle-save-the-republic/?fbclid=IwAR0oBfRYtbeTYmD0NCFq7Fs_dwMk_nR3etgs0pR0q7jZM0XgFWnXER76bro
BWdem4life
(1,672 posts)Hekate
(90,708 posts)Or not
electric_blue68
(14,906 posts)Hekate
(90,708 posts)ymetca
(1,182 posts)recapitulating the past evolution of planetary life, while churning out "mutants" to pre-capitulate the next planned (?) phase.
Certain of us DNA Robots function as breaks on further evolution, while others spontaneously mutate further innovation in extending collective consciousness, as intelligence awakens on our planet.
Remember, our current conception of reality is that we are all on this spinning ball in a great big void of space. That may be as primitive as thinking the Earth is flat, in another thousand years.
Nothing I have written here is true.
My apologies for continuing to suffer from the fallacy of "isness". There is no is. No wait! There is no is.
Tarot card: The Fool