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brooklynite

(94,727 posts)
Mon Jun 20, 2022, 09:33 AM Jun 2022

To those envisioning NY AG Tish James "getting" Donald Trump, here's some perspective from my wife..

(...a noted Tax Attorney).

It is very rare for people to go to jail for tax fraud. Likely fines and penalties.

Consider what did and didn't happen with the abuses by Trump's sham "Foundation".

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To those envisioning NY AG Tish James "getting" Donald Trump, here's some perspective from my wife.. (Original Post) brooklynite Jun 2022 OP
Then let's just take all his assets. He will commit a felony soon enough when he's broke Walleye Jun 2022 #1
confiscate his assets.. agingdem Jun 2022 #8
Trump couldn't go to jail, gab13by13 Jun 2022 #2
Ah, but the Foundation no longer exists Fiendish Thingy Jun 2022 #3
Well, yeah. It IS a civil case. Novara Jun 2022 #4
The civil case, can establish corroborating information for criminal cases empedocles Jun 2022 #5
Let's hope it does. Novara Jun 2022 #7
This site claims that "nearly 2/3 of tax fraud offenders were sentenced to imprisonment". Roisin Ni Fiachra Jun 2022 #6
Perhaps a bit of ancient history to emphasize the rare cases? Pyryck Jun 2022 #9
That was a criminal tax fraud case. The NY case re: TFG is a civil action. Ocelot II Jun 2022 #11
If I had money to bet, I'd bet it on Georgia MissMillie Jun 2022 #10
Then he could be pardoned? bcool Jun 2022 #13
Governor Kemp isn't going to pardon Trump... brooklynite Jun 2022 #14
I imagine that is a possibility, however (EDIT) MissMillie Jun 2022 #15
Duly noted for the record. nt Tommy Carcetti Jun 2022 #12
The Manhattan DA spiked any chance of criminal charges last I heard. This is all civil. Thomas Hurt Jun 2022 #16
It's Georgia we need to watch JustAnotherGen Jun 2022 #17
That's Kind Of The Problem, Sir, Isn't It? The Magistrate Jun 2022 #18
People commit all kinds of tax fraud daily; very few are prosecuted MichMan Jun 2022 #19

agingdem

(7,857 posts)
8. confiscate his assets..
Mon Jun 20, 2022, 09:52 AM
Jun 2022

properties (golf clubs, land, art, autos), investment accounts, bank accounts, close down all grifts, and gag him..no talking to the press, no interviews...an ankle monitor would be nice..yes, I know, civil..may not be prison but Trump without his toys is a isolated diminished Trump

gab13by13

(21,402 posts)
2. Trump couldn't go to jail,
Mon Jun 20, 2022, 09:36 AM
Jun 2022

it's a civil suit.

If Tish takes a big chunk of Trump's money it could cause him a nervous breakdown though.

Fiendish Thingy

(15,656 posts)
3. Ah, but the Foundation no longer exists
Mon Jun 20, 2022, 09:37 AM
Jun 2022

And Trump and kids are banned from creating another foundation.

I’d be OK with that happening with the Trump Organization.

Roisin Ni Fiachra

(2,574 posts)
6. This site claims that "nearly 2/3 of tax fraud offenders were sentenced to imprisonment".
Mon Jun 20, 2022, 09:46 AM
Jun 2022
Nearly two-thirds of tax fraud offenders were sentenced to imprisonment (63.9%)

The average sentence length for tax fraud offenders was 15 months.

https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/research-and-publications/quick-facts/Tax_Fraud_FY16.pdf

Pyryck

(99 posts)
9. Perhaps a bit of ancient history to emphasize the rare cases?
Mon Jun 20, 2022, 09:53 AM
Jun 2022

Al Capone

Hmm ... maybe we should start tagging TFG with the title of "Public Enemy No 1"? Just asking, for a friend.

MissMillie

(38,579 posts)
10. If I had money to bet, I'd bet it on Georgia
Mon Jun 20, 2022, 09:54 AM
Jun 2022

though I don't know that he'd see jail time.

Then again, there may be more charges to come. The "Stop the Steal" grift could get him.

We'll see.

bcool

(219 posts)
13. Then he could be pardoned?
Mon Jun 20, 2022, 10:35 AM
Jun 2022

If he would get jail time in GA, could the governor pardon him?

If so, and if the governor was Republican, then I could see that happening.

MissMillie

(38,579 posts)
15. I imagine that is a possibility, however (EDIT)
Mon Jun 20, 2022, 10:44 AM
Jun 2022

Depending on what the exact charge is, a conviction there could lead to a Federal indictment. What is a violation of state election law is often a violation of Federal election law (though there may be an issue of double jeopardy).

ON EDIT: There's always a chance that if pardoned on a State election charge, he could be charged with a Federal Civil rights violation. The slate of fake electors is the key here--wiping out the voting rights of Georgia voters.




JustAnotherGen

(31,879 posts)
17. It's Georgia we need to watch
Mon Jun 20, 2022, 11:04 AM
Jun 2022

Your wife is right . . .

Fani Willis, Fulton County GA (ie Atlanta) is where its at.

The Magistrate

(95,255 posts)
18. That's Kind Of The Problem, Sir, Isn't It?
Mon Jun 20, 2022, 11:47 AM
Jun 2022

'Tax Fraud' is, in essence, theft from the government, in fact from the Sovereign people, and is often enough conducted on a titanic scale. There is no real reason why it ought not be punished in the same manner as any other theft. Just like blackmail. which turns information into a weapon to extort funds, 'tax fraud' essentially turns well-crafted lies into a weapon with which to rob the Treasury.

Two things seem worth noting.

First, the people who engage in theft by falsely stating their tax liability are far more deterrable sorts than your run-of-the-mill street thug. Most violent crime is committed by people who for whatever reason lack much impulse control, or possess much in the way of future orientation. They don't think much about what they do, and if you are not looking at things with a mind able to sensibly consider 'if this is done, what comes next?' deterrence is just not on the cards. Little but the most immediate prospect of success will be considered.

This is far from the case with a businessman who cheats on his taxes. He knows he is engaged in sharp practice, just like he knows he is unlikely to suffer any adverse consequences for doing so. There will not be hard time in stir should he get caught. There may be some money fine, but compared to catching five to ten, even in a 'Club Fed', that's a trifle. On the existing mores and practices, criminal evasion of taxes is a reasonable, rational action, that people who feel above and apart from society at large are given no reason not to engage in. People imagine a stiff jail term will deter the unthinking street thug, which it will not, and seem to think kid gloves will not encourage calculated, well-planned, and profitable theft by fountain pen.

Second, the fact that is difficult to jail tax cheats has more to do with who writes the laws than with any difficulty in actually discerning when cheating has occurred. For most crimes, the act demonstrates the intent. If someone menaces another and demands money, no inquiry is made into whether the former knew he acted against the law, and intended to act against the law. Why this should not be the case for someone who understates income, or exaggerates costs, or bleeds income off into shells and trusts is unclear to me. The best explanation seems to be that the class of people who construct the laws regarding tax fraud regard people who engage in it as folks of 'our sort', and accordingly approach the business in a spirit of 'there but for the grace of God go I' rather than one of 'well, we'll soon put a stop to the shenanigans these reprobates get up to'. Legislators don't see themselves reflected in an armed robber. Many legislators are tax cheats. Nobody wants to catch themselves out in crime. And so the laws are drawn to be evaded, an industry grows up to give advice on how to do it while preserving some pretense no fraud was really or knowingly intended.

It's very rare that plausible deniability actually is plausible....

MichMan

(11,971 posts)
19. People commit all kinds of tax fraud daily; very few are prosecuted
Mon Jun 20, 2022, 12:22 PM
Jun 2022

Technically, every single one of them is guilty of defrauding the government. Many people falsely claim deductions they aren't entitled to and under report income at all income levels.


How many restaurant servers, hair stylists, or door dash delivery drivers claim all their tips? How many construction laborers and landscapers are paid under the table while avoiding all income and SS taxes? How about their employers who don't pay SS , Workman's Comp or UI? Artists selling at street fairs and farmers selling at roadside stands.

These are a different scale than resl estate moguls, but still fraudulent all the same. If caught in an audit, they pay the back taxes and a penalty. If not, they will continue doing what they get away with.

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