General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forumswhat is your plan? How would you react? Could you hold it together? ---shootings
for years I have practiced classroom routines with my students.
I feel pretty confident in my classroom -what I would do/react/say
I think I would be strong for my classroom babies and make sure I protect them.
BUT...if I were in a store, church, parade, mall I think I would flippin' lose it.
My hubby asks what is the difference. I feel the difference would be that it is my duty and my heart to keep my babies alive so my mind would be on that.
the other times, it would just be me and if I were alone, I might just crumple.
hubby said we will work on a plan. He carries so with him I do not ever worry.
do you have one?
Joinfortmill
(14,428 posts)I'm retired. I go shopping early in the morning when there are few people around. I avoid crowds. I don't sit with my back to the door in a restaurant. I try to learn where the back exit is.
WarGamer
(12,445 posts)Scrivener7
(50,955 posts)of pretty close call gun incidents.
In each case, there was just no time to formulate and carry out a logical plan. I was simply lucky.
anarch
(6,535 posts)Which obviously didn't matter since they weren't shooting at me...I'd like to think that if I had a second or two to comprehend what was going on, in some kind of mass shooting situation, I'd at least hit the deck pretty quickly. As it is, I don't go out much, and I try to be aware of my surroundings and stay behind cover as much as possible out of longstanding paranoia.
Scrivener7
(50,955 posts)a gun, I would be dead now.
Frasier Balzov
(2,654 posts)Does that mean he will shoot first and straighter?
This sounds like part of the problem to me.
demtenjeep
(31,997 posts)but I do not fear walking the dog in the dark with him.
Withywindle
(9,988 posts)Most of these mass shootings happen in broad daylight in highly crowded public spaces, in areas that are generally coded as "safe." Parades, shopping centers, grocery stores, churches and synagogues, movie theaters, etc.
What exactly would a husband with a handgun do to protect you from this at night? What would anyone with a handgun be able to do against a shooter armed with a high-tech military weapon?
Straw Man
(6,625 posts)Does that mean he will shoot first and straighter?
This sounds like part of the problem to me.
We all know "Run, hide, fight," right? So when the first two fail, and it's time to do the third, would you rather be ...
a) armed
b) unarmed
-- ?
We were given active shooter training at my school and were told how many things can be weapons: chairs, desks, fire extinguishers. I found it highly ironic that the security professional who was educating us on all this was wearing a Glock on his hip.
Frasier Balzov
(2,654 posts)Rather than contribute to their proliferation.
Risky right?
Straw Man
(6,625 posts)It won't.
The word "proliferation" suggests a nuclear war scenario in which one launch will lead to the destruction of the world in a massive chain reaction. That's not applicable to the situation in question. When you are face-to-face with the active shooter, the number of guns in the society at large is completely irrelevant. If you have a gun, you might have a chance, and you might be able to save other lives even if you die in the attempt. If you don't have a gun (or similarly effective weapon), you have very little chance of saving yourself, much less anyone else.
The problem is not so much the raw number of guns; it's who has them and what they do with them.
Frasier Balzov
(2,654 posts)Distinguishing who you think should have them is what becomes irrelevant.
Straw Man
(6,625 posts)Distinguishing who should have them has been the essence of gun control all along: permits, red-flag laws, background checks, etc. Are you suggesting that outright bans are the only viable way forward?
Please explain how the number of guns in the society is relevant to you in that moment when you are face-to-face with an active shooter. Take all the time you need.
Frasier Balzov
(2,654 posts)All you're describing is an environment in which shooting faster, straighter and with more lethal firepower is our nation's highest value.
That's not a worthwhile goal. You really won't like living like that, and you're getting a preview of it.
Straw Man
(6,625 posts)That's what you advocate? "If there were no guns, no one would get shot" is a meaningless truism.
Not at all. I'm talking about how you might have a chance to save yourself -- and possibly others -- in an extreme situation. It has nothing to do with values -- that's just virtue signaling.
Frasier Balzov
(2,654 posts)I hope I am.
Straw Man
(6,625 posts)Last edited Fri Jul 8, 2022, 08:07 PM - Edit history (1)
The term "virtue signaling" can be used by and against both sides of the political spectrum. One might, for example, use it to criticize companies who tout the health or environmental virtues of their products -- "all natural," etc. -- when such virtues are either easily achieved or meaningless: "gluten free" marshmallows, for example.
I use it to indicate that your anti-proliferation stance offers nothing practical to the debate but merely serves to indicate your supposed moral superiority.
Frasier Balzov
(2,654 posts)Sit-ins at the lunch counter produced change in their day.
Nobody wants to join me and stage a sit-in at the firing range.
Straw Man
(6,625 posts)Nobody wants to join me and stage a sit-in at the firing range.
... but firing ranges are not where the problem is.
BigmanPigman
(51,608 posts)with them too. We never had any real emergencies and the only earthquake was 30 minutes after the kids went home. However, during other emergencies I found that I go into automatic mode amd I just instinctually act and fast. You probably would react the same way...clear headed and on autopilot. Little kids can run really fast and hide in small spots so they sort of have the advantage in that way.
WhiteTara
(29,718 posts)moving makes you a target.
DetroitLegalBeagle
(1,923 posts)What I do will depend on the situation. I have the unfortunate advantage of having already been shot at and fighting back multiple times. Unlike when I was in Iraq, I won't have a M4 or be wearing body armor, so if I can get my family and myself out safely, then I will. If no escape is possible, then finding a hiding spot, preferably one that provides cover and limited access(a lockable or barricadable door/entrance) between us and the shooter is the next priority. Finally, if no other option is available, fight back with whatever means I have, even if that means doing so in order to provide my family time to escape without me. I have not carried a gun since my very short stint working for the county prosecutors office. Recent events has had me rethink getting my carry permit again(I let it lapse and sold the gun years ago) and my wife is also considering getting trained and licensed as well.
Texasgal
(17,045 posts)I guess I would try to run to safety, I guess.
I hate that we are now in this type of position.
Jirel
(2,018 posts)For the record, I have been in two shootings, though not on a mass casualty scale like the parade incident. One was at a 4th of July fireworks display in Chicago over 25 years ago, and the other was a shootout between two cars on my block in Minneapolis 15-20 years ago, where both shooters succeeded and one crashed his car nearby us as he died. Though I already knew it before then, those incidents brought one thing home: there is no such thing as following a plan when bullets (and cars) are flying. All you can do is keep your head, and adapt.
In the 4th of July incident, it may have taken 10-15 or more seconds before a lot of the crowd figured it out that there were gunshots, not a bunch of stray fireworks. We were jam-packed in a city park with lots of large trees, hedges, etc. Some people started running (and tripping). Others walked urgently, since running in the dark over grass and shrubs where lots of people were packed in, really didnt work well. I pulled my husband back behind one of the trees, and just waited and watched and listened. The shots did not continue (probably the police at the other side of the park dove in rapidly), and there was no point in being bowled over by half-panicked people. When the initial wave of running and falling was over with, and there were no more shots, we walked back out to the street that was now jam-packed with cops, along with a lot of other folks. How do you plan for that? You dont know whether the shooter will be 20 feet away, or half a city block away. You dont know what youll have to hide behind, or whether there will be a way to run safely. You dont know whether the stampede may be more dangerous than the shooter. Hell, you dont know whether you want to be running into a gaggle of fully activated Chicago cops. You dont know where a safe distance will wind up being.
The second time was surreal. We were on the porch with a couple friends, and saw and heard the shooters just start to go at it as they passed each other at the intersection. We barely registered that they were firing before one car went screeching away and the other suddenly accelerated and crashed about half a block later. Its not like you could plan for how to handle something like that. Its happening so fast, the car is already crashing as youre thinking, Crap! I should duck behind this wall! You dont know if the guy who crashed is dead, or unconscious, or about to come out of the car with a gun. Youre only guessing whether youre better protected crouching down behind the stucco porch wall, or having only air, or the glass and wood of the front door, between you and potential bullets as youre trying to run inside and lock the door.
My point is, you have less than a split second to make a decision and do something, right or wrong. You dont really have an idea of the level of danger, most of the time, unless youve just been hit or the person next to you has been hit. You know the old saying that no plan survives the first contact with the enemy, in war? Its the same thing when youre in a public place, and someone starts shooting. Literally all you can do is make the best guess about getting something between you and bullets, then taking stock of WTF is going on and what might get you out of harms way.
Withywindle
(9,988 posts)Good post, thank you!
tblue37
(65,395 posts)now that potential shooters realize many people will mistake gunshots for fireworks when they're expecting to hear fireworks going off.
Doc Sportello
(7,522 posts)Had a pistol stuck in my eye and got hit in the head with a shotgun. The one thing I learned is that nobody knows for sure how they will react in those situations. Lots of people, especially males, will tell others that they would do this or do that but it's just boasting. They don't know how they would react. One tough guy in the restaurant almost got us killed. I did as the robbers instructed.
captain queeg
(10,207 posts)But every situation is unique.
Just A Box Of Rain
(5,104 posts)I might die in the attempt, but I know myself.
Raine
(30,540 posts)it makes it harder for the shooter to hit you. I heard an expert give that advice, advice I hope I never have to use. 🙏🤞
Just A Box Of Rain
(5,104 posts)he taught us this "trick."
By zig-zagging while running away from someone with a gun it makes it extremely difficult for a shooter to take a bead on you.
We even practiced it with the second guy in line acting as the "shooter" (using our fingers as a gun) and that was a good demonstration of the difficulty of aiming at someone zig zagging randomly.
Typing this makes it seem a bit odd. This was late 1960s and we were living in a nice suburb of Los Angeles at a time when shootings were rare. And Weaver was a very nice and decent man--not some odd ball. And boy was he fast! He could zig zag like a master.
I wondered about why he taught us this trick over the years, and I think part of it was tapping in to the propensity of 9-10 year-old wanting to "play." He could have us practice football techniques, run drills with everything we had, and if we picked up a life-skill in the process it was a bonus.
Kaleva
(36,307 posts)and the Civil War. Matching or running towards an enemy in a straight line got many people killed.
Raine
(30,540 posts)in handy in more then sports.
Xavier Breath
(3,642 posts)Raine
(30,540 posts)halobeam
(4,873 posts)hunter
(38,317 posts)Got the PTSD too.
Demovictory9
(32,457 posts)Not sure how I would actually react
Kaleva
(36,307 posts)Some will actually attack an enemy despite there being little to no chance of survival.
Withywindle
(9,988 posts)the best strategy is to stealthily move behind something like a car or wall if possible and stay still.
The caveat is that the shootings I've been randomly adjacent to in cities in the 90s were mostly gang-related, with one or two specific targets, and the main weapons were handguns.
I don't think there is any real way to avoid being a victim of one of these massive shootings with military weaponry.
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)I was internally petrified. I lead people to safety and sheltered in place while it was going on. It was surreal and horrific, and we were sent to therapists who worked with combat soldiers. Think of that: we were so traumatized, we had to work with therapists who worked with combat troops with PTSD, and we were all adults. I cannot imagine what kids go through when this happens.
I am not giving any more details of the incident btw.
sarisataka
(18,663 posts)Get my family to safety, help others to safety. Confrontation is every other option has been removed.
Kaleva
(36,307 posts)That'd be Walmart, Dollar General, Tractor Supply, Ace Hardware, Lowe's, Target, Menards, Kohl's, a local grocery store and the two hospitals we go to. If it's been awhile since I've been to a particular store or other place, I'll first look for the exits to refresh my memory or learn where they are if I've never been there before.
I've told my wife that if we here gunshots, we'll move quickly towards the nearest one that is away from the shooter. As my wife hates stores, I'm usually by myself.
And as my wife and I are introverts, we don't go to public places where there are a large group of people.
Torchlight
(3,341 posts)I think about and I know how I'd want to react, but I believe that in most critical situations, what we say we'd do and what we'd wind up doing are pretty far apart everywhere but our own imaginations.
I have zero idea what my response would be, and hopefully, will never know.
Caliman73
(11,738 posts)Somebody once said, "Everyone has a plan until they get hit in the face". That is true. I have been in a few situations that were dangerous in my life. There have been times when I reacted defensively. There have been times when I got the hell out. There have been times when I have frozen. You can certainly try to prepare physically and mentally, and that may help. I know that in the military and sports, a lot of the training is on muscle memory, so that you can engage in certain actions in high stress environments, but some studies suggested that over 1/3rd of soldiers in firefights were not able to, or chose not to fire their weapons.
It sucks to have to say this but when going into a public situation, whether a mall, park, concert, etc... it would be a good idea to get very familiar with the exits and places to take cover.
MarineCombatEngineer
(12,393 posts)I know exactly how I would react, I would try to do my best to avoid getting shot while getting the best description of the shooter I can, but if confronted by an active shooter with zero other choice, I would draw my weapon and defend myself and hope for the best outcome.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)I have a bit of mental collapse a few days after.
Which isn't helpful.
I may need to learn to decompress and not stay awake 34 hours.