A country founded to escape religious tyranny is on the precipice of being destroyed ....

[CousinIT]

... by religious tyranny.

[dalton99a]

1. Kick

[tanyev]

2. Although many who came here fleeing religious tyranny

were happy to perpetuate it whenever they had the upper hand.

[Celerity]

3. +10000000000000000

[2naSalit]

8. Still are...

As are seeing now.

[paleotn]

13. The corrosive nature of religion in general.

Monotheistic religion at the very least. Monotheism...the bane and convenient cover for evil during the last 2 millennia.

[shrike3]

42. The Romans conquered much of the known world and they were polytheistic.

China has been particularly aggressive during parts of its history, and its people have been known to be polytheistic. Number of gods really has nothing to do with it.

[paleotn]

61. It has a lot to do with it.

Polytheistic people generally don't conquer in the NAME of their god(s). Sure, they'll take your land, your stuff and may even kill you, but not because their god specifically said it was OK or commanded them to do so. No pretense needed from a supposedly "loving" god. Nor do they have some bizarre need to make the globe Christian or Muslim at the point of a sword if necessary. Monotheists also have a bad habit of killing their fellow adherents for the "crime" of not worshiping the one, true god in the approved fashion. Polytheists, not so much. It's like monotheists took the spandrel of religion to a whole new level of nutty.

[shrike3]

62. IOW, they killed, pillaged, destroyed -- why? Because they wanted to?

Can't blame religion for everything, I guess.

[LogicFirst]

20. The Quakers were known to have hanged people.

[Scrivener7]

36. The Puritans were known to murder Quakers. And ban Baptists and Anglicans.

Founded on religious freedom, my ass.

[Lars39]

59. Iirc, the Puritans were basically

run out of town. They were trying to impose their religious views on others.
Sounds very familiar doesn’t it.

[Rebl2]

41. Absolutely

It’s also absolutely true now, on steroids if you ask me.

[Caliman73]

53. That is accurate American History.

While many of the founders had antagonism toward religion and political activity mixing, many had no such reservations. The history of the colonies was a study in contrasts. While William Penn and his Quakers were pretty open and inclusive, there were plenty of colonists who instituted strict religious control over their areas. The First Amendment stopped the National Government from establishing religion, but until the 14th Amendment, that was not forbidden to the States.

Conservatives always do whatever they need to obtain and maintain power. If there were power in Atheism, they would use it. Since the power is in religion, they use religion as a means of control.

[Hortensis]

4. Yeah, no one should think they get off that easily if they don't stop it.

It's never OVER.

They'll instead have to live without religious freedom, paying taxes to support religious oppressors, as a normal condition until, hopefully, they've successfully joined with others to restore what we inherited.

We shouldn't assume, either, that the people who just let it be taken will finally connect their refusal to vote Democratic to protect their own rights with what's gone wrong. More likely, the same people will continue to blame Democrats for what Republicans do, our "refusal" to stop proof of complicity.

That means in spite of a large majority being "for" freedom of religious, it'll likely to be a bitterly long and frustrating battle with one side surging, then the other, etc.

[Hortensis]

5. Yeah, no one should think they get off that easily if they don't stop it.

It's never OVER.

They'd instead have to live without religious freedom, claiming religious belief to get/keep jobs, being afraid to speak honestly, sitting through prayers and invocations at almost every gathering, paying taxes to support religious oppressors, etc, as a normal condition until, hopefully, they'd successfully joined with others to restore what we inherited. Or at least didn't impede them too much.

We shouldn't assume, either, that the people who just let it be taken will finally connect their refusal to vote Democratic to protect their own rights with what's gone wrong. More likely, the same people will continue to blame Democrats, not themselves, for what Republicans do, our "refusal" to stop it, but never theirs, proof of our complicity.

That means in spite of a large majority being putatively "for" freedom of religious, it'd likely to be a bitterly long and frustrating battle with one side surging, then the other, etc.

Much easier to just vote to put a stop to them now.

[world wide wally]

6. The problem with America is that we are too stupid to process how the church

can say anything they damn well please and then say it is what God wants us to do and we say, "Duh, okay"

[randr]

7. By a small group of robed fanatics I may add.

[IronLionZion]

9. Republicans want Taliban theocracy here

but wrapped in an American flag and carrying a Bible and AR-15

[paleotn]

10. The guys who knew all too well the corrosive nature of state sponsored religion.

I'd go even further. The corrosive nature of religion, period.

[Wednesdays]

11. When the Constitution was composed in 1787, the Thirty Years' War was not a distant memory

A war fought by governments supporting separate sects of Christianity. It was basically a World War, as it eventually involved all the major powers of Europe except Britain (which was fighting a civil war on its own). The result was half a million dead directly from combat, and up to another 12 million dead indirectly, mostly from famine. It wiped out a third of the population of Germany, which took at least a century to recover.

I think the Founders were well aware of what would happen if they tried to mix religion and politics.

[paleotn]

18. Exactly...

I'm reminded of my late father in law. Well educated, very secular guy of northwest German stock (Bremen). His parents immigrated just before WWI broke out and settled in Milwaukee. When my partner was a kid, her dad just exploded out of the blue one day from a news report about the current Pope. "Goddamn whore of Babylon!!" and then went about his business. My explanation was the 30 Year War was still fresh in the minds of even ex-Lutherans.

[gulliver]

12. There are two other branches of government that respond to the vote

The Supreme Court isn't by itself. The majority is on our side. Let's vote.

[NullTuples]

43. Are you saying that just pushing "get out the vote" isn't going to do the trick?

[BannonsLiver]

14. It was founded so the founders and others could make more money

Without interference from the crown in the form of taxes and competition.

[malthaussen]

57. Charles Beard lives, eh? n/t

[BannonsLiver]

60. No he's still dead.

:

[keithbvadu2]

15. What will they say/do when it is not their version of Christianity in charge?

What will they say/do when it is not their version of Christianity in charge?

Madison also made a point that any believer of any religion should understand: that the government sanction of a religion was, in essence, a threat to religion. "Who does not see," he wrote, "that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?" Madison was writing from his memory of Baptist ministers being arrested in his native Virginia.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/americas-true-history-of-religious-tolerance-61312684/?no-ist=

[lees1975]

27. Madison and Jefferson both saw established religious groups persecute dissenters

Kind of ironic that the Baptists, among those Christians in America who were persecuted by established religious groups, were the biggest advocates for separation of church and state, influencing both Madison and Jefferson and giving them just enough of a push to write it into the constitution.

Don't paint with a broad brush. Those who want to break down the walls of separation between church and state are a minority among all Christians, and even among conservative Christians. They've just figured out how to be a vocal minority.

https://signalpress.blogspot.com/2022/07/why-i-am-christian-who-votes-for.html

[keithbvadu2]

32. Great article/letter.

I was initially against Carter because he was just another super Christian who I figured wanted to run everybody's life. He is one of the very, very few who believe, live, and practice their faith.
That vocal minority is the face of Christianity in America because the 'silent majority' lets them be.
The broad brush is applicable because the political Christians are the main face of Christianity in America.

[NullTuples]

44. Um, conservative Baptists are just under half of American religion. RCC is most of the other half

And while some say that half of Catholics are liberal...they still support both socially and financially a very non-liberal and very political - and corrupt - organization.

The leftist, liberal, progressive Christian sects in America - to use an analogy - end up being a pretty face on a terrible and ugly monster.

[Grasswire2]

54. remember the trend that was called "compassionate conservatism"??

Portraying themselves as more liberal on social issues?

It disappeared.

[NullTuples]

58. It was never real to start with, only the basis of Bush's "Faith Based Initiative"

Whereupon government provided social services were thrown away and shifted to being privatized via contracts with religious organizations. Ever wonder why there seemed to be an explosion of Christian shelters, soup kitchens & crisis pregnancy centers a couple decades ago? All that extra funding is why.

[Obvious85]

16. The Supreme Taliban 6's ruling WILL be undone

I absolutely am certain of it

[kentuck]

17. I remember the controversy when Kennedy was going to become our first Catholic President...

He had to make a public statement to assure people his religion would not interfere with him doing his job.

Then, they started to load up the Court with Catholics and we are here today. (This is not to frown on your religion if you're Catholic, but it is what it is) Catholics are inherently religious to an extreme on some issues, it seems to me.

[carpetbagger]

28. I disagree about Catholic intransigence on abortion.

Brennan and Sotomayor supported Roe, and Roberts wasn't on board with the overturn. The president and two of the three people immediately in line of succession are pro choice Catholics. Most Catholics supported Roe. Hell, 2/3 of Irish voters voted to legalize abortion a few years ago. The Catholic Church does have a bunch of officially celebrate men running the show, so sexuality is always going to go through an odd filter, but even Catholics who regularly attend mass poll about the same as white Evangelical Protestants in general, who pretty much take orders from the Republican Party.

[H2O Man]

19. Recommended.

[The Jungle 1]

21. The Christofascist want...

To be able to protest and blow up abortion clinics.
But they don't want us to protest. FU that ain't how it works karen.

[Paper Roses]

22. Tax free religion foisted upon us. Leave the rest of us alone!

I respect the rights of anyone to practice whatever religion they choose...or no religion at all. I'm not a believer and feel I should not be subject to the whims and fancies of those in power to make their religion the basis of rules for all of us.

So much now is based on the beliefs of those who practice some religion. Do as you please but leave the rest of us who might not agree alone. Pay taxes on your properties, especially the evangelists who live in mega mansions and spread their fanatic gospel to those who cannot tell the difference.

I'm so sick of the church ruling the government. Yes, just look at the Supreme Court decisions. Church based. Not right!

I hope not to offend those who practice any religion. Those of us who do not should not fall under this umbrella.

[Warpy]

23. Not quite. They escaped state religion they didn't like,

then set up religious tyranny of their own when they got here. This was the dumping ground for religious zealots of various flavors, all of whom set up colonies under the heavy hand of religious orthodoxy, enforced by small groups of men. Most were Puritan, the sourest branch of the sour Calvinists. Others were founded by Catholics and Quakers and a few other sects.

[TeamProg]

24. Well, before the Founding Fathers there were the Puritan Pilgrims whose values

and ideals of RELIGIOUS OPPRESSION got them KICKED OUT of ENGLAND only to have them migrate to HOLLAND who ALSO KICKED THEM OUT so the CAME TO THE NEW WORD for the FREEDOM TO OPPRESS OTHERS AS THEIR FORM OF "RELIGIOUS FREEDOM"

Remember, the Pilgrims were Brits who came over the pond wearing wooden shoes.

Never forget that.

The new "Religious Freedom" is just the same. Oppress others who don't share your religion.

[Upthevibe]

25. Kick. N/T

[LogicFirst]

26. Wikipedia:

“Anti-Catholic attitudes were brought to the Thirteen Colonies by Protestant Christian European settlers, composed mostly of English Puritans, during the British colonization of North America (16th–17th century).”

And now we have 6 Catholics on the U S Supreme Court.

How our country has changed.

[czarjak]

38. When The Klan was founded in 1865, their enemy list was Blacks Jews and Catholics...

Evangelical: Code for hate. I lived it my first eighteen years.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

29. We have a Subversive Court and extremist Republican party intent on theocractic fascism ...

These can only be defeated by an enlightened and determined electorate.

[Mysterian]

39. Or a good army

if that becomes necessary.

[AntiFascist]

30. As someone once wrote in a letter to Thomas Jefferson...

People enjoy Great Priviledges Under the Present Goverment if they Would Only Consider it; they are Not Bound Down Under the Slavery of Church Goverment—Which is one Great Freedom—

[Blue Owl]

31. K&R for visibility

[DFW]

37. From "The Evolution:"

“What Darwin said is causing me a lot of grief.
“Religion’s free as long as it’s my belief!”

[spanone]

40. K&R

[Higherarky]

45. Religious purity

Religious purity = pure insanity.

[Higherarky]

50. Ikr?

I know a few who walk the walk. But only a FEW.

[Higherarky]

55. Shux, didn't catch your reply.

Sorry to have missed out on your words of wisdom.

[inthewind21]

48. Ironically

turns out the escapees just wanted to inflict a little religious tyranny on others!

[Martin68]

52. Rhode Island (and to some extent PA) was the ONLY colony to practice freedom of religion.

The others just wanted the freedom to practice their own cult, to the exclusion of others. They passed laws institutionalizing the practice of their own cult, and forbade any others. Sound familiar?

[malthaussen]

56. That's just bad history. No need to overstate the case.

The US was not "founded to escape religious tyranny." It was founded to take control of its affairs out of the hands of Parliament. You might as well say it was founded to prohibit the quartering of soldiers on the citizens (3rd amendment), or to prevent legislators giving themselves raises between elections (in the draft of the Bill of Rights, but omitted. Curiously enough)

Or you could go all 2nd Amendment and say the country was founded to allow everyone to fondle unlimited and unrestricted firearms, which is an argument of the other side.

You cannot, legitimately, choose one of many freedoms secured in the Bill of Rights and claim it is the "reason" the country was founded.

And btw, the Adams "Quote" is not John Adams, but his secretary during the mission to Tripoli, John Barlow. The language found its way into the Treaty of Tripoli, which was ratified by unanimous vote of the Senate in 1797 (which would be the basis for an argument that the US was not founded as a Christian nation, but not that it was founded to "escape religious tyranny."

-- Mal