I got up at 3:45AM to get gas on LI...

[Renew Deal]

And it didn't go particularly well. I decided to check out the situation last night because I am not desperate for gas at this time.

I drove by a gas station that has consistantly had gas. They were putting up a "no gas" sign as I was driving by. What I didn't realize at the time was that the line wrapped around two blocks.

I drove by another station that had gas earlier in the day. They were closed and cars were parked right up to the pump and down the block.

I drove by another three that were open earlier. They were closed. Then I drove by a couple where people were sleeping in their cars. I eventually found another open gas station with a long line. Some of the people had gas cans. Others were in their cars.

Every gas station that's operating has 1-2 cops parked there to keep an eye on things. I saw a gas station last night where people were parked on the street. The lady in the first car was asleep. Cars pulled up right at the pump in front of her. I'm sure there's going to be trouble coming from that.

This is a ridiculous situation. I can't believe that people need to sleep in their cars to get gas. This reminds me of some of the peak oil gas prophecies that are out there. It is an ugly sign of things to come if we don't get off of gas.

[BumRushDaShow]

1. "It is an ugly sign of things to come if we don't get off of gas."

You just now made me think of something that may also be a downer in situations like this - EVs like the Volt. If power is out, you can't charge your car.

Am wondering if the natural gas vehicles (like alot of utilities used to use) might be a better alternative.

[Renew Deal]

2. Until natural gas runs out

Last edited Sat Nov 3, 2012, 09:49 AM - Edit history (1)

While we pollute the environment to mine it and demand drives the price up.

[BumRushDaShow]

13. Oh I understand

The issue is getting backup power as a contingency for alternative vehicles like an EV. Meaning that charging stations need solar (or some other power generation mode off the fossil fuel grid, to generate the actual electricity they need). Alternately, wind could be used but it's difficult to do in an urban environment... meaning getting a distribution grid up and transporting some distance from the source (which some have been trying to work out).

The reality is that our current electric grid relies on fossil fuels or nuclear for the most part (with hydro), and unfortunately some prefer to spend money manufacturing goods that blow people and things up rather than to build up a varied energy-efficient infrastructure.

[littlemissmartypants]

4. I just watched GASLAND...

Have you seen it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/112726358
http://www.democraticunderground.com/112726358#post4

[BumRushDaShow]

15. Yes, this has been out for some time

and I live in a fracking state (see marcellus shale). But the immediate issue is how to deal with our newest fleet of alternative vehicles (EVs) that STILL mostly rely on a fossil-fuel-generated energy source. Because whether you have a gasoline-fueled car or an electric-powered car, both still rely on electricity at some point in the chain (which is mostly fossil-fuel generated outside of some hydro... and I won't even bother to count nuclear).

[Strelnikov_]

24. Per the Exergy concept of energy planning

Use of limited natural gas to motivate four wheel livings rooms is a waste at 10% efficiency.

The highest use of limited natural gas resources is as home/commercial heating (90%+ efficiency) during the transition to ground source heat-pumps (at 300% efficiency-they are an energy source wrt heating).

EV is the only viable path forward for personal transport at 70% efficiency.

Of course, planning involves regulation. So, in the end, money will continue to be thrown into the box canyon that is fracking, deep offshore, arctic, etc. until the day there is realization that these are marginal energy resources that were only viable due to mining of the remaining high-quality non-renewable energy resources.

By then, it will be too late, since it takes energy to to create the infrastructure to harvest renewable energy.

[Honeycombe8]

3. Imagine how much better it'd be if everyone had a Prius and had filled up at 1st storm warning. nt

[Renew Deal]

8. At this point, only a little bit better.

We're 4 days on since the storm ended. People have jobs and obligations to attend to. They will run out of gas at some point.

[NutmegYankee]

12. I normally get 2 weeks on a full tank, and that includes 30 miles a day of driving -

plus runs into the nearby cities averaging 10 miles one way for groceries. And my car gets maybe 25MPG average if it's a good week. I'm surprised by the demand so soon. You'd think a full tank would last longer than 4 days. My generator was getting 3 hours to a gallon. I shut it down after a few hours and for the night to conserve fuel since the fridge will hold for hours.


The one good thing that will come out of this is that most gas stations will acquire backup generators after this. The local stations were all up on generator power after the storm.

[Renew Deal]

17. How much gas does a generator hold?

It didn't seem like much to me.

[NutmegYankee]

18. It depends on the size. I have a 5500 Watt and it holds 6.6 gallons.

I topped it off, added stabilizer (use the blue marine formula stabilizer) and stored it for the summer expecting bad storms. In addition, once I saw that a storm could hit, I filled two 5 gallon tanks with gas. If you need the generator on continuous (sump pump or medical needs), you should stockpile more and perhaps invest in a small 2000 Watt generator (like the Honda EU2000i which gets 9 hours per gallon). A sump pump or medical device will not need as much power.

I don't need a continuous power supply, so I shut down for the night and turn it off a few times during the day. In general, it's good to give the generator a cool down every 8 hours of so. And don't forget that they need oil changes every 50-100 hours of run time.

[Honeycombe8]

20. If folks had high mileage cars, it'd be much better than it is, with SUVs, sports cars,

and gas guzzlers lined up at the stations, for sure.

I don't have a hybrid. I have a Honda Fit. 27 to 30 mpg city, 36 mpg highway. If I'm not working, I could go a month or longer w/o gas. If I'm working, I could go two weeks w/o gas. No special trips to stores, of course. You do that while you're already out and about, to save on gas.

[NutmegYankee]

23. The reality is that you and I aren't getting much different in weeks of supply.

The fit has a fuel tank around 11 gallons, mine is around 15 gallons. Once you take that into account, we both get about the same run time in hours/days. You pay less and pollute less, but we get about the same time of driving.
I suspect many people just didn't fill up before the storm.

[Honeycombe8]

19. Next week is when most would need gas. Certainly shorter lines than those with SUVs,

old Chevies and Fords, sports cars, and other guzzlers.

[Mojorabbit]

31. I have solar panels to recharge a battery

I don't know if the prius has a special battery or not where this might not work but if not, it would be a handy thing to have.

[SmileyRose]

21. Generators

People fill up the car thinking they'll pull some of that gas out to run the generators. While the new one way valves in the tank makes getting it back out a lot of trouble it is still the best option most people have for storing gasoline.

[Robb]

5. Thanks for the update from the ground, so to speak.

Glad you're not desperate!

I was listening to a fellow on the radio who'd stood in line for 5 hours or something for gas to take home to his generator. I promptly scoffed inwardly about creature comforts and what-not, only to hear moments later he was keeping his wife's oxygen-maker running.

One would think I'd get better about avoiding snap judgments of people, considering.

[Renew Deal]

9. You're right

I consider myself lucky. I can hear the generators as I drive by some neighborhoods. The issue now is that the weather is cold, so people need the generators just to power the heating system.

[CTyankee]

6. I know you weren't last minute but I wonder about those who are or were...

did they not know a big storm was coming?

I'm retired so it was easy for me to drive over to my gas station early Sunday morning to fill up. But even when I was working and crazy busy, I was conscious of impending storms and too afraid of running out of gas in the middle of one to wait.

I just don't get it why people wait until they are practically on empty before "thinking about" getting gas when told of the forecast...

[Renew Deal]

10. People are trying to lead their lives

They have jobs and other things going on. It's been 4 days since the storm ended. Long Island has never experienced this kind of fuel disruption in my memory. So unless you stockpile gas or stop driving, you will run into this problem at some point.

[CTyankee]

25. I get scared that I'll be stranded so I take as many precautions as possible. You never know

what can happen...

[NutmegYankee]

14. To be fair, we have had a lot of recent experience with power outages.

So we in Conn. know to fuel up and stockpile a few containers of gas.

I take it many south of us didn't know it could be this bad.

[Jennicut]

32. Alfred was bad for the northern part of the state and Irene really hit the coast bad.

Tons of power outages. We must be the state most used to this right now because of the last year. My brother in Lyme was out for 8 days during Irene. Only 2 days for Alfred for me up in Terryville. In Cheshire, my Mom was out for about 3 days during Alfred.
I heard from my cousin on Long Island it will be two weeks. Yikes.
So glad I did not lose any power this time. But we all know to stock up now in our family. My brother has a generator.

[NutmegYankee]

35. I lost power in all three.

Now I have a generator and transfer switch.

[LuvNewcastle]

7. I sympathize.

After Katrina there was hardly any gas to be found anywhere in the deep south. The gas that was available cost 5 or 6 dollars a gallon. It's probably going to take at least another week or two before there's a good supply of gas in the area. I believe that authorities are doing the best they can to fix the situation, so people need to take a breath and be patient. Worrying and fighting about it will not change things; it only makes the situation worse.

[Renew Deal]

11. I agree

People need to think about how they use the gas they have.

[dixiegrrrrl]

26. Many people do not realize how bad AFTER the storm can be.

Over the years I have noticed that a lot of people don't even think about an impending storm/hurricane,
and practice a form of mass denial: "It won't be as bad as_________ " .
They have dozens of reasons why they do not have to evacuate, and then can't believe that 911 can't rescue them in the middle of a hurricane.
Other people DO prepare, for the actual storm, but not for after the storm, when storm damage means you cannot even get out of your home or from one block to another because of downed trees, wires, tons of debris, damaged cars, etc.
No power means no gas.
Impassable roads means gas and food cannot come to where you can get them.
Thousands of people trying to gas up at once means gas stations run out of fuel, either before a storm or after it when stations can be opened.
And in a storm the size of Sany, refinerys get damaged.

The truth is, for the first 2-4 days after a bad storm, you are pretty much on your own.
I have been in a few big bad ones, once no power for 2 weeks, in snowy winter, once no power for 3 weeks when Ivan hit my town.
Takes days for "normal" life to slowly resume. Takes a lot of pre-planning to get thru those days.

[Whovian]

16. I ran into the same situation after the 4-27-11 storms that destroyed much of the SE

Suddenly no gas, no banks, no power for weeks.

[faithfulcitizen]

22. So sorry, I can't imagine. I did hear that military tanks of gas were on the way.

I hope help arrives very soon.

[progressivebydesign]

27. It's called a disaster for a reason.

Sorry, but there was a storm of epic proportions that hit the most populated area in the Country. You can bet there will be shortages of things like gas. Sucks.. but everything doesn't go back to normal in a few days.

People should be thankful that they're not lining up all night for basic necessities like food and clean water.... Welcome to the gas lines of the fake gas shortage in the 1970s.

I'm sure everyone will get pissed at me for saying this.. but it's a GAS line, folks. You are NOT walking three days to a food site in Africa, and leaving your children dead on the side of the road as you try to keep your other children alive. You are not dealing with armed rebels who are shooting at you as you try to get food for your family. It's a gas shortage from a major hurricane. Period. It sucks, and it's inconvenient, but it's GAS for your car. There are people every day in the world would WISH they had a car or a fraction of what we have. It's just gas.

[Renew Deal]

28. It's a gas shortage from a minor hurricane

The storm was not "of epic proportions." It was a Cat 1 storm that caused a lot of damage mostly to the coasts. Inland, there was very little structural damage.

[NutmegYankee]

29. You were not hit by a hurricane. It was a Nor'easter.

A massive 900 mile wide Nor'easter. So yeah, it was pretty epic.

[CreekDog]

30. it's not going to turn into Mad Max

and emergency fuel deliveries are occurring, there's gas rationing in NJ and power is being restored.

it will get better.

but you just had a big hurricane. things will be abnormal for a while, that part is unavoidable.

i know how critical mobility is for people and where public transit isn't sufficient, not being able to gas up one's car is a frightening prospect.

hope you and your neighborhood get the relief you all need ASAP.

[RagAss]

33. Oh

[hedgehog]

34. I wonder how much of the stress is on a feedback loop -

1 person lines up at midnight, so other people think they have to and it snowballs from there.

Why are the gas stations closing if people are still in line?

[stevenleser]

36. They are closing because they ran out of gas.

I agree with other folks, this will be very temporary. Every day, friends email or message me from around the metro area telling me how various things are coming back on, etc.

Today, most of my friends in Staten Island tell me power is back on for them. Yesterday it was a large percentage of my friends in Long Island. I think the media has exaggerated how bad it is because, well, it keeps people watching.

[Renew Deal]

38. Mostly because they ran out of gas

But some are not 24 operations anyway.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

37. Ah, I remember those days....

Might be a new thing to New Yorkers, but as a Floridian I've been through it more than once. You have to try to top off the tank as close to the storm as possible and conserve your driving afterwards. Not fun at all, but it will eventually even itself out in about a week.