General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSomething is off, it doesn't add up.
If the DOJ knew there were nuclear secrets at Trumps home many months ago, they would have raided Trumps home immediately.
Did the DOJ/FBI have some type of sting operation in place at Trumps home over the past months?
Did they just learn recently there were nuclear secrets, perhaps in his safe, from an informant? A lot of questions need to be answered.
Not too long ago I posted Trump is going to take Benedict Arnolds crown. The greatest traitor in our history. That looks like a sure bet now.
no_hypocrisy
(46,182 posts)They had speculation; they had hunches; they had theories.
But they had to be damned sure in order to get a search warrant. Certainty demands time.
OhNo-Really
(3,985 posts)When Trump was elected, $$Billions of profits motivated Trump fam & maybe many Republicans to help the 2015 Grand Scheme to pepper the Middle East with Westinghouse tech nuclear power plants become reality.
Pure Speculation!
Thwarted by the Blue Wave 🌊 thin majorities.
A second term could have sealed the deal.
Odd coincidences that Jared got $2 billion & tfg for his pined for Golf Tournament both from Saudi Arabia this year.
mercuryblues
(14,537 posts)I suspect the Saudi's. Who just got done spending a shitload of money at a trump property? Who just spent a lot of time with trump?
Marius25
(3,213 posts)ratted him out to the FBI.
It sounds like the FBI knew he took some documents, which they retrieved months ago. But Trump kept nuclear secrets and the FBI didn't know he had those, until someone close to Trump told the FBI, "Hey, Trump is still hiding top secret documents."
gab13by13
(21,402 posts)the National Archives should have known what was missing early on.
When asked to return the missing documents, Trump finally returned 15 boxes. Now, if Trump told DOJ that was all of the documents he had, he is in trouble for lying. The National Archives knew then that there were still missing documents. I must have posted here a dozen times asking if DOJ was looking for the still missing documents? Someone then blows the whistle on Trump. Someone tells the FBI that Trump still has documents and tells them where they are. DOJ then issues Trump a subpoena to return the 12 additional boxes and gets nowhere, thus DOJ has no option but to go in and retrieve the documents.
Could DOJ have issued a subpoena a year ago? You bet it could have. Could DOJ have issued the search warrant shortly after the subpoena? You bet it could have. Merrick Garland gave Donald Trump the benefit of the doubt, gave Trump every opportunity to do what was right and lawful but Trump still felt he was above the law.
Someone refresh my memory if I am wrong, but I know damn well that when Trump returned the 15 boxes that the National Archives reported there were still missing documents because I kept posting and asking if DOJ was looking for them.
sop
(10,243 posts)Perhaps after Trump returned the originals, the FBI learned Trump was still in possession of the classified information and was trying to "share" it with others.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,656 posts)Thats why DOJ issued the subpoena in June, were apparently given some TS docs at that time, and apparently confirmed that other docs remained in Trumps possession, hence the search warrant.
The fact that Trumps lawyers handled some of the TS docs is a separate violation of the Espionage Act.
Its likely DOJ wouldnt have known from NARA precisely which documents were missing a year ago; that would have made it harder to get a search warrant.
wnylib
(21,606 posts)It's another thing to know who has what is missing. To do a search of someone's home requires evidence of probable cause. That is especially true when the suspect is a former president.
FakeNoose
(32,748 posts)The fact that he returned cartons of paper to the U.S. Government is meaningless. After they were scanned and archived, Chump had the digital information to sell to the highest bidder. And that's all he needed, the paper can go back to Washington or go up in smoke.
What's truly shocking is the amount of time - the 18 month delay - once it was known that Chump had the secret documents in his possession. How many bidders were in it before Chump finally sold our secrets off?
Arazi
(6,829 posts)If youre spending oh say, $2 billion dollars for nuclear submarine plans, theyre not going to accept a digital scan imo.
They wouldnt trust it. I wouldnt trust it.
So he may have made scans but their value is severely diminished on the black market
Claustrum
(4,846 posts)and that led to the new scrutiny.
gab13by13
(21,402 posts)When Trump returned the 15 boxes the National Archives declared there were still missing documents. I do agree that a whistleblower tipped off the FBI that Trump didn't turn in all of the documents he had and if Trump lied to DOJ that the 15 boxes were all he had, he committed another crime.
The National Archives knew that nuclear documents were missing from the very beginning.
Claustrum
(4,846 posts)When the government is suspecting that TFG didn't give the full documents, they might send someone to him trying to get an idea if he has extra secretive documents before you do the "unprecedented" search warrant on a former president. So when your informant comes back with confirmation of existing extra secret documents, they applied for the warrant.
Autumn
(45,120 posts)After the first 15 boxes were removed Trumps people were still "searching" for any additional records that belong to the National Archives.
You are right, they knew.
wnylib
(21,606 posts)wouldn't they have acted sooner?
OTOH, it's one thing to know that something is missing and another to know who has what is missing. You can suspect who has them, but to do a search of that person's home, you need evidence of probable cause. Presumably, an informant provided the evidence.
Since access to sensitive nuclear information is so highly restricted, the list of suspects who might have aided Trump in getting the documents out of their locked security should be small. According to former CIA director John Brennan (MSNBC - Velshi) protocol is for a person with access to remain with the documents after removing them from the Special Access Program and return them when whoever requested them is finished.
So somebody had to have helped Trump get these documents out of the highly restricted Special Access Program to pack them in boxes for removal.
Snoopy 7
(528 posts)While trump was running for President he kept saying the FBI wire tapped him. But we all learned that they were tapping incoming foreign calls. What if they were still tapping them and overheard someone, let's just say trump, say he had Top Secret document for sale and where they were at. Boom the FBI rushes in...
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)These tidbits led me to think that's an option:
On June 22 federal investigators served a subpoena for surveillance video at Mar-a-Lago, seeking to ascertain who had access to areas where documents were stored (CNN) and on June 24 Politico reports Trump directed NARA to give access to J Solomon & Patel
gab13by13
(21,402 posts)are scum bags. This is the information I was asking about. Was it these 2 people who gathered up the 27 boxes that ended up at Mar-el-Loco? Surely those 27 boxes weren't being stored at the White House? Someone had to help Solomon and Patel. Start digging.
wnylib
(21,606 posts)Access to sensitive nuclear information is so restricted, and the protocols for handling the documents are so strict, that only someone with special access could have obtained the documents for Trump to carry out with him. It is not something that could happen by accident.
So, who got the documents for Trump? Was it a Trump loyalist who was appointed to a position with a title that would give him access? Then look for people whose position and title during Trump's term is suspicious. A lot if them, I know, but which one would have had a title that gave him access to highly restricted data? For example, former CIA Director John Brennan, said that when he was a Homeland Security advisor and Deputy National Security advisor, he had access to these documents. But, when he became CIA Director, he no longer had access.
Wasn't Steve Bannon in National Security at one point? Who else could have had access by being appointed to a position that gave them access?
gab13by13
(21,402 posts)we all saw the video of boxes of classified documents being hauled off to Mar-el-Loco. I remember DOJ telling the National Archives to do the investigation. Months go by and the National Archives is in over its head so it issues a criminal referral to DOJ to take over.
My memory could be off but I remember DOJ giving the case to the National Archives. DOJ did not investigate the issue until it got that referral.
Also, we know that Trump had at least 27 boxes of documents at Mar-el-Loco, where did he get those documents from? Were those documents being stored at the White House? Is that a common practice? Were not some of those documents so sensitive that they needed to be stored in super secure locations? When did Trump start storing 27 boxes of documents at the White House? Someone working for Trump had to box up all of those documents.
Samrob
(4,298 posts)House and Senate. They are as evil and fascists as he is. Thus I believe the FBI needs to dig deeper into House and Senate members who were close to Trump and who are now screaming the loudest. The loudest screamers among them are the most fearful and the most guilty. LOCK THEM UP!
Generic Brad
(14,275 posts)If true, I'm having a cow!
Response to fightforfreedom (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
gab13by13
(21,402 posts)DOJ didn't originally take the case, the National Archives was doing the investigation. later on down the road the National Archives had to issue a criminal referral to DOJ to take the case.
It certainly appears in hindsight that DOJ should have taken the case from the beginning.
Response to gab13by13 (Reply #13)
Name removed Message auto-removed
obamanut2012
(26,137 posts)cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)Is that Trump knew all this time they were looking for the documents and still didn't change a thing about trying to show them off etc. I know he thinks he's untouchable but he actually is a genius in not getting caught so this seems extra weird that they have known all this since June.
gab13by13
(21,402 posts)Doncha think a good place to look for them would have been at Mar-el-Loco? Would Trump still be in possession of those 12 boxes were it not for a whistleblower? The entire Mar-el-Loco facility should have been searched, but maybe a judge would not have granted the warrant without more evidence?
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)knew they weren't the worst of the worst, like maybe outdated nuclear manuals or something, and they were waiting for proof that he actually would deliver them to the Saudi's which I'm guessing they recently got.
That would explain why it took so long to bring him down. If they knew exactly which documents he had and knew their level of dangerousness then why not just sit and wait for him to unload them like they knew he would.
allegorical oracle
(2,357 posts)"third parties," which was interpreted to mean resort guests.
Crazyleftie
(458 posts)documents. That was media speculation. Be patient.
gab13by13
(21,402 posts)they have been reliable so far. If they said the FBI was looking for nuclear documents they have sources to back up that statement.
Tetrachloride
(7,865 posts)destruction of documents
Scrivener7
(51,004 posts)seem pretty unlikely.
I believe he flushed documents, but I don't believe that was a photo of them.
And I love the observation someone made: with all the fireplaces in the White House the fact that he chose to flush documents shows what an absolute moron he is.
Tetrachloride
(7,865 posts)lawyer should have said something
gab13by13
(21,402 posts)he did bigger crimes. Garland will go big or stay home.
Scrivener7
(51,004 posts)Though that seems incredibly dangerous.
RobinA
(9,894 posts)is that it assumes Trump would know a nuclear secret if it bit him in the butt. Which I have a hard time believing. Plus, what does Trump, known to read pretty much nothing, want with documents? He's not a document kind of guy. If you told me Trump took classified documents I have to ask myself, What would Trump want with paper? How would he even know what to take for whatever his purposes were? He's not a lawyer, he doesn't think like a lawyer.
Further, who packed up these 27 boxes of classified stuff? Trump in the Oval at three in the morning with a stack of boxes, a pile of paper, and packing tape? Hard to imagine. This whole story is missing a few parts. The only part of this scenario that remotely sounds like Trump is that he kept the stuff at his house all this time.
stevil
(1,537 posts)Perhaps they have lower level people dead to rights and hope those people flip on TFG to avoid longer sentences.
gab13by13
(21,402 posts)Donald Trump is not stupid, he is mentally ill.
A reporter should ask Trump an Occam's Razor question, one simple question, why did you take (at least) 27 boxes of classified material to Mar-el-Loco? What could he possibly answer to that simple question?
With Trump it's always money.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)No biggie
#GOPLies
#Cult45
Meadowoak
(5,558 posts)Grabbing anything they thought they could sell for money.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)... the second set of boxes that were recently taken either so he could keep them.
Corgigal
(9,291 posts)with Keith Olberman and he said something changed in early June because that was the time frame when they wanted the cameras video from the hallway that covers the storage room.
Get a chance and listen. Media is working to put it together, we should know more today.
Ilsa
(61,698 posts)who is serving a life sentence (in solitary, I think) at the supermax in Colorado. But TFG may be worse.
judesedit
(4,443 posts)triggered a response. Surely, some saner person in his sphere would have limits on what they would accept as ok and rat him out if important enough.
Escurumbele
(3,402 posts)That some special surveillance was set in motion to find out what the criminal was doing with all the information. Did he pass or sell information to Putin or any other dictators?
I cannot believe he took all those documents with him for the simple fact that he is an ignorant and extremely stupid person, his life is about grift, his mind must have been on two things, hurting the USA and making money while doing it.
I agree with "fightforfreedom", trump will take Benedict Arnold's place in history.
Lonestarblue
(10,064 posts)times while the documents were there. Some were arrested for espionage. Some may be members of the club, which also has dozens of other people in and out every daywith highly classified documents sitting around!
Trump and his aides had to know what was in those boxes, or they would not have bothered taking them. So was Trump selling secrets to the foreign agents who visited?
Im going down the rabbit hole of speculation here, but I keep thinking about the timing of some of this. The news reported on February 7 that 15 boxes of documents had been transferred to the National Archives. It was reported in mid-February that some of those documents were classified as Top Secret. On February 24, Putin invaded Ukraine. Is there a connection between Trump having Top Secret nuclear documents and Putins decision to invade Ukraine? Putin was surprised by the US reaction and that of NATO leaders to his invasion. Why?
Aside from the fact that Trump would sell his own children for the right price, I have no trouble believing that he would sell classified information to Putin. Trump is super vindictive, and he might even have given such information to him as revenge on the government he no longer controlled.
childfreebychoice
(476 posts)T*/mar-a-lardo, and Jared espec, were being monitored. Can't believe such high valued docs were allowed to languish, without being monitored. Jared didn't get 2 billion fr SA for his business acumen, and/ori plastic ken doll, good looks.
rubbersole
(6,725 posts)Joinfortmill
(14,456 posts)I wish I could recommend an individual post.
Joinfortmill
(14,456 posts)bucolic_frolic
(43,281 posts)Now they know, or they wouldn't have acted yet.
yardwork
(61,703 posts)My understanding is that the judge would have needed compelling information that documents of interest were in a specific place, and that information would have to be recent. As in, "Person X saw such and so documents in Trump's bedroom dresser last Tuesday."
It wouldn't be enough to tell the judge "We think Trump might have taken classified documents when he left the White House in January 2021, and they're probably at Mar-a-Lago, so give us a search warrant please." A search warrant wouldn't have been approved for a fishing expedition against a former president.
This means somebody told investigators something recently. Somebody close to Trump.
BumRushDaShow
(129,442 posts)Except that pesky 4th Amendment doesn't allow it to happen that fast!
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/fourth_amendment
They may have had both NARA and possibly other entities like DOE, DOD, etc., who were aware of access to a system with such info that had a hardcopy that was made, classified, and then not returned/retrieved after 1/20/21, and they had to do an inventory of what was returned and what wasn't, and then get explicit about what was going to be searched for and where, and then generate a specialized inventory of what was going to be seized - particularly with respect to any regular "Classified" info, let alone anything considered "Top Secret", that had to be cataloged separately and then that inventory itself classified "Top Secret" with only certain individuals authorized to retrieve/view it).
But the other thing that was apparently going on that was running under the louder news cycle about the seizure itself, was this ditty from the WSJ that I found that was referenced by the NYT -
By Alex Leary, Aruna Viswanatha and Sadie Gurman
Aug. 10, 2022 6:09 pm ET
Around lunchtime on June 3, a senior Justice Department national security supervisor and three FBI agents arrived at former President Donald Trumps Mar-a-Lago home in Florida to discuss boxes with government records sitting in a basement storage room along with suits, sweaters and golf shoes. A few days later, the FBI sent a note asking that a stronger lock be installed on the storage room door, signing off: Thank you. Very truly yours, Jay Bratt, chief of counterintelligence and export control section.
In the following weeks, however, someone familiar with the stored papers told investigators there may be still more classified documents at the private club after the National Archives retrieved 15 boxes earlier in the year, people familiar with the matter said. And Justice Department officials had doubts that the Trump team was being truthful regarding what material remained at the property, one person said. Newsweek earlier reported on the source of the FBIs information. Two months later, two dozen Federal Bureau of Investigation agents were back at Mar-a-Lago with a warrant predicated on convincing a federal magistrate judge that there was evidence a crime may have been committed. After hours at the property, the agents took the boxes away in a Ryder truck.
(snip)
The controversy began after Mr. Trump left office, when the National Archives and Records Administration reached out to his team to ask for what it thought were missing records. All official documents are required to be turned over under the Watergate-era Presidential Records Act. The Archives in January retrieved 15 boxes of documents and other items from Mar-a-Lago. The boxes contained some documents archives officials described only as classified national security information, prompting them to refer the matter to the Justice Department for investigation.
(snip)
Aides to Mr. Trump have said they had been cooperating with the department to get the matter settled. The former president even popped into the June 3 meeting at Mar-a-Lago, shaking hands. I appreciate the job youre doing, he said, according to a person familiar with the exchange. Anything you need, let us know. Five days later, Trump attorney Evan Corcoran received an email from Mr. Bratt, the chief of the Justice Departments counterintelligence and export control section, who oversees investigations involving classified information. We ask that the room at Mar-a-Lago where the documents had been stored be secured and that all the boxes that were moved from the White House to Mar-a-Lago (along with any other items in that room) be preserved in that room in their current condition until further notice, according to what was read to The Wall Street Journal over the phone. Mr. Corcoran wrote back, Jay, thank you. I write to acknowledge receipt of this letter. With best regards, Evan. By the next day, according to a person familiar with the events, a larger lock was placed on the door. It was the last communication between the men until Mondays search of Mar-a-Lago, according to the person.
(snip)
Deborah Acosta contributed to this article.
https://archive.ph/QKSD6#selection-99.5-577.44 (Wall St. Journal no paywall link)
And then the WSJ in turn, referenced a piece de resistance that was published by Newsweek -
By William M. Arkin On 8/10/22 at 10:03 AM EDT
The raid on Mar-a-Lago was based largely on information from an FBI confidential human source, one who was able to identify what classified documents former President Trump was still hiding and even the location of those documents, two senior government officials told Newsweek. The officials, who have direct knowledge of the FBI's deliberations and were granted anonymity in order to discuss sensitive matters, said the raid of Donald Trump's Florida residence was deliberately timed to occur when the former president was away.
FBI decision-makers in Washington and Miami thought that denying the former president a photo opportunity or a platform from which to grandstand (or to attempt to thwart the raid) would lower the profile of the event, says one of the sources, a senior Justice Department official who is a 30-year veteran of the FBI. The effort to keep the raid low-key failed: instead, it prompted a furious response from GOP leaders and Trump supporters. "What a spectacular backfire," says the Justice official.
"I know that there is much speculation out there that this is political persecution, but it is really the best and the worst of the bureaucracy in action," the official says. "They wanted to punctuate the fact that this was a routine law enforcement action, stripped of any political overtones, and yet [they] got exactly the opposite." Both senior government officials say the raid was scheduled with no political motive, the FBI solely intent on recovering highly classified documents that were illegally removed from the White House.
Preparations to conduct such an operation began weeks ago, but in planning the date and time, the FBI Miami Field Office and Washington headquarters were focused on the former president's scheduled return to Florida from his residences in New York and New Jersey. "They were seeking to avoid any media circus," says the second source, a senior intelligence official who was briefed on the investigation and the operation. "So even though everything made sense bureaucratically and the FBI feared that the documents might be destroyed, they also created the very firestorm they sought to avoid, in ignoring the fallout."
(snip)
https://www.newsweek.com/exclusive-informer-told-fbi-what-docs-trump-was-hiding-where-1732283
One might also note the big 'ole can of worms that hasn't been opened yet (publicly, if it is relevant) and that is related to the OTHER properties (e.g., Bedminister) and whether stuff is there too.
Joinfortmill
(14,456 posts)childfreebychoice
(476 posts)Cherokee100
(268 posts)Hence the term 'Benedict Donald'.
Warpy
(111,339 posts)I think he just had his packers grab boxes of files willy nilly when it became clear that he couldn't bluff and bluster his way into staying in the White House. To assume he or any of the packers knew what was in those files requires a huge leap of illogic in assuming any of them were smart enough to recognize it, all previous facts don't bear that out.
The National Archives had a pretty good idea what was grabbed months ago by what was missing, national security paper is treated very carefully. I dealt with low level stuff in the mid 60s and I imagine security has gotten even tighter regarding what is signed out and to where.
He's just been playing a narcissistic game of chicken with national security, thinking somehow being in possession of this stuff is being in possession of the presidency, or maybe just hanging onto it out of pure spite. Malignant narcissists don't think the way you and I do, it's what makes them such impossible people to deal with. They need a bludgeon, not finesse.
Well, the bludgeon finally struck and just listen to that orange tick complain about how unfairly he's been treated. I mean, broke his safe, like he can't afford to get it repaired or replaced within a week over stuff he never should have had in the first place.
There was no need for a sting operation, I think he's probably boasted about his security to any and all in order to impress them with his godlike qualities in installing it. The reason the FBI struck now is that the orange tick is due back in Mara Lardo next week and the Feds wanted to get in and out without having to deal with him or his muscle. The game of chicken had gone on long enough.
halfulglas
(1,654 posts)He was such a squirrel in those years. From the beginning he took printed documents up to his residence. Some things he destroyed there and in the oval. He ripped things up, chewed some, burned some but there were always those stories of docs he had in the residence and the aides who carried things in cardboard boxes when he left on his helicopter. Did he bring all of them back? I think he was secreting some of those boxes away in Florida from the beginning. I think somebody should take a look at what he may have in New Jersey. We don't know this may have been his form of a little IRA from the beginning, especially after the fuss made of the thing with Lavrov in the WH. Part of the mess he created may have been deliberate.
Novara
(5,851 posts)And really, they didn't know that for 19 months?
I'm not sure I buy it.
calimary
(81,466 posts)Theyre just getting around to dealing with this? Nobody suspected anything til just recently?
STILL giving the pathological liar the benefit of the doubt?
STILL assuming he was gonna conform to rules and conventions that EVERY other out-going president has obeyed?
SHEESH!!!
Novara
(5,851 posts)... all records of guests who've been at the resort since Jan 2021, all call logs, cell phone records bouncing off the closest towers, etc.
Does Secret Service keep a record of people visiting ex-presidents in order to vet them beforehand? I mean, their job is the safety of the person they're supposed to be protecting; I'm sure they don't just let anyone visit without some sort of screening.
Not that these SS will be any help.
Time will tell if it really is nuclear secrets. I haven't seen confirmation; I've only seen the WaPo article. And who knows where they got that idea? But if this is nuclear secrets (even if it isn't; it's supposed to be material of the highest classification), everyone who has been on that property while the boxes were there needs to be thoroughly checked out. What are they afraid of? If it was you or I, our entire lives would have been combed through for the last 19 months.